Mountain Biking - air vs spring suspension?

what is the difference between them?

Correct terminology is Coil vs. Air spring.

Coil is more plush and better for big hit's / big riders.

Air spring is lighter and much easier to dial in the preload if you have no idea where to start.

what is the difference between them?

One has a metal coil (a spring) for a spring, while the other uses compressed air for a spring.

will the air spring suspension be able to handle around 5 foot drops? or is it mostly for going over rough terrain

The air forks cold probably handle it as lots of companies have their top freeride/downhill forks with the air system. If you don't really like either you could get 'air assisted springs' which is a fair compromise.
That's what's on the Marzocchi AM 3 forks i want.

hope this sort of helps :).

Oh boy...more sitcom. I give up.

In the mountain bike world, you're going to see air sprung suspension for XC applications, and coil springs for DH and freeride. Neither one is "better" than the other.

In theory, air springs could be used for all types of riding. An example would be aerospace, where some of the largest transport aircraft in the world all use nitrogen sprung landing gear struts.

Maybe, because you don't see many coil shocks on 4 inch or less travel bikes? And not too many riders run air on their 8" + DH/FR bikes?

Syr seems to have a valid observation. His Comment about "Neither one is "beyter" than the other." I am sure is fodder for countless threads.

I have seen guys race DH on Air, couldnt tell you if they are better or not.

What prompts people to post nonsense like this?

Because, for the most part, it's true.

Is it true about what is said about heavier rides shouldn't use air forks? I'm 200 lbs. and am thinking about getting a fox 32 talas. Will I blow a seal? Also, it's been mentioned that coils are more plush, but I've always thought it was the other way around...

200pounds isn't that heavy. And really air shocks and forks have greatly improved over the last several years. I wouldn't really worry about it now

There are many folks that do just that, with air sprung FR/DH forks being offered by Rock Shox, Fox, Marzocchi, etc.

If all of these air sprung forks are being designed, sold and ridden for FR/DH then how does "In the mountain bike world, you're going to see air sprung suspension for XC applications, and coil springs for DH and freeride" make sense?

So where's the other side? Name some current lightweight coil sprung XC forks.

So where's the other side? Name some current lightweight coil sprung XC forks.

It mgiht work in that direction, simply because xc guys traditionally worry more about weight, I betcha Marz still has some "lightweight" coil forks. For those of us who prefer the feel of coil. (just checked marz does in fact have 2 coil sprung xc forks)

But with FOX DHX Air etc...air shocks and forks are becomming more popular in dh and fr. They are standing up to the abuse and even dhiller and freeriders enjoy a little weight saving.

p.s. Nice way to narrow your comments to "lightweight" XC forks...

So you agree. It isn't nonsense at all.

I have a RST t7 plus fork with 100mm that came stock on my Hardrock SD. It's a XC level fork that is -gasp- coil springed.

It's not a theory, it's been practice for a while.



What, in the past two model years? In the "world" of mountain biking, that is, the grand scheme of things, you will see coil springs used mostly for FR/DH applications, and air springs for XC.

I have a RST t7 plus fork with 100mm that came stock on my Hardrock SD. It's a XC level fork that is -gasp- coil springed.

Really? It's an XC fork? How many racers use it?

now, now. We're just hostile now aren't we?

Nope, it's been longer than that. Even if it had only been two years, it would still show that your "in theory" bit was nonsense. Thanks for the admission.





Feel free to name a few for me. That is, commonly used DH/FR air sprung forks or shocks in production for over two years. How about five years?

now, now. We're just hostile now aren't we?

The truth hurts.

even if it is two years, it would still put your statement to shame. " Really? It's an XC fork? How many racers use it?" Alright, well how many racers use forks are that more than two years old?

Really? It's an XC fork? How many racers use it?

Did you ever say "race" fork? Is that all there is to XC is racing?

What's interesting is that you're continuing to try and recast the discussion in a vain effort to obscure the simple fact that your post was, and is, nonsense.

http://www.marzocchi.com/template/listSPAForksMTB.asp?IDFolder=208&LN=UK&Sito=usa%2Dmtb&IDAnno=30710&offset=2

Hardly.

Please count the number of air spring vs. coil sprung FR/DH forks in Marzocchi's lineup. Coil still represents the vast majority.

Did you ever say "race" fork? Is that all there is to XC is racing?

Have you ever seen an "XC" fork marketed for something other than racing?

Have you ever seen an "XC" fork marketed for something other than racing?

You are not serious? Wait while I.......:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:
Do you ride Tsali alot?

http://www.marzocchi.com/template/listSPAForksMTB.asp?IDFolder=208&LN=UK&Sito=usa%2Dmtb&IDAnno=30710&offset=2



I love the Marzocchi babes :love:

Where did you ever write "vast majority," I could have sworn that you wrote "In the mountain bike world, you're going to see air sprung suspension for XC applications, and coil springs for DH and freeride"? Yet another attempt at obscuring the fact that your post was, and is, nonsense.



Because its true the "vast majority" of DH/FR forks are coil. Count them yourself. How is this nonsense?

Svr, its okay to admit you're wrong. Because when you make a wrong statement, you're just uninformed. When you refuse to accept that you're wrong, you're an idiot

Is that what you typed?

"In the mountain bike world, you're going to see air sprung suspension for XC applications, and coil springs for DH and freeride"

"In theory, air springs could be used for all types of riding"

Yep, and I stand by those statements.

A textbook definition for "world" is everything that exists anywhere. Look back at the history of mountain bike suspension, with the first offerings being air sprung XC forks. DH forks have been traditionally coil sprung, and by far is the dominant type in the big picture. There's nothing wrong with that statement.

"In theory, air springs could be used for all types of riding."

This statement is 100% true. Are you saying air springs cannot be used for all types of riding?

Would be nice to turn this thread back to the original question. What are the tradeoffs between coil and air? What is it about coil that leads to it being more commonly used on high-travel, downhill and freeride bikes? I actually find it interesting that I see coil suspension used in two situations: 1) Cheap, department store bikes; 2) Expensive downhill bikes. Typically, air occupies the middle ground, or at least it does if you consider trail and all-mountain riding to be middle ground. Why is that?

Do things get complicated when you try to make an air shock act like a coil shock?

I hear people talk about "progression". Does the choice between air versus coil tend to affect the progressiveness of a shock? The plushness?

Lots of interesting questions. I'd love to see some discussion on them from those more knowledgeable.

Would be nice to turn this thread back to the original question. What are the tradeoffs between coil and air? What is it about coil that leads to it being more commonly used on high-travel, downhill and freeride bikes? I actually find it interesting that I see coil suspension used in two situations: 1) Cheap, department store bikes; 2) Expensive downhill bikes. Typically, air occupies the middle ground, or at least it does if you consider trail and all-mountain riding to be middle ground. Why is that?

Pete or somebody awnser these questions, Im curious too.

I'm unfamiliar with the definitions of "progressiveness" and "plushness" with regards to suspension and shock absorbing systems... perhaps start by defining these terms for us?

I'm unfamiliar with the definitions of "progressiveness" and "plushness" with regards to suspension and shock absorbing systems... perhaps start by defining these terms for us?

Progressive means the spring rate increases through its travel. So it might take 10lbs of force to get through the first inch of travel but 20lbs to get through the next inch of travel.

Plush doesn't mean anything, and I can't wait to hear people's definition of it.

"when man already has walked on the moon."

- actually, that's debatable

Yep, and I stand by those statements.

A textbook definition for "world" is everything that exists anywhere. Look back at the history of mountain bike suspension, with the first offerings being air sprung XC forks. DH forks have been traditionally coil sprung, and by far is the dominant type in the big picture. There's nothing wrong with that statement.

"In theory, air springs could be used for all types of riding."

This statement is 100% true. Are you saying air springs cannot be used for all types of riding?

LOL, give it up already. You're looking more and more like an idiot. Oh wait, keep it up! Your comments are good for a daily laugh.

Would be nice to turn this thread back to the original question. What are the tradeoffs between coil and air? What is it about coil that leads to it being more commonly used on high-travel, downhill and freeride bikes? I actually find it interesting that I see coil suspension used in two situations: 1) Cheap, department store bikes; 2) Expensive downhill bikes. Typically, air occupies the middle ground, or at least it does if you consider trail and all-mountain riding to be middle ground. Why is that?

Do things get complicated when you try to make an air shock act like a coil shock?

I hear people talk about "progression". Does the choice between air versus coil tend to affect the progressiveness of a shock? The plushness?

Lots of interesting questions. I'd love to see some discussion on them from those more knowledgeable.

back to the OP

Pete, your comments in this thead have been childish, rude, and less than helpful. Do try and grow up a little.

Pete, your comments on this forum have been childish, rude, and less than helpful. Do try and grow up a little.

Fixed.

Fixed.

Don't ruin the joke.

I think I have a new sig. Saves me the effort of copy/pasting it into every thread. Too bad, though, I really like Gastro's quote.

Quiet junior, the adults are talking.

You include yourself in that? I don't think I've laughed so much in years. Thank you for improving my day.

I think I have a new sig. Saves me the effort of copy/pasting it into every thread. Too bad, though, I really like Gastro's quote.Gastro is very quotable (as you can see below). But that one is a new classic, santiago.

Quiet junior, the adults are talking.

Last warning before your parents are contacted.

That's funny. Last I checked, this is a public forum. And, you claim to know everything, yet I have not seen one post from you that actually helped someone or included any piece of practical information.

And, last I checked you have no reason to know how old I am, unless you actually looked me up.

I didn't say anything, except point out the fact you act like a complete jerk on this board and never really help anyone. Does it make you feel special to crap on people on the internet? Do you even actually own a bike?

...yet I have not seen one post from you that actually helped someone or included any piece of practical information.That's not true.



I am honestly curious Pete: what specifically have you found about the Deuter that you prefer over CamelBak?
Much cooler due to their design, high quality, and they handle/distribute loads to the hips better than the Camelbaks that I've used.

That WAS helpful. I may go with a Dakine Drafter anyway because of its specific features; but it was good to know.

Would be nice to turn this thread back to the original question. What are the tradeoffs between coil and air? What is it about coil that leads to it being more commonly used on high-travel, downhill and freeride bikes? I actually find it interesting that I see coil suspension used in two situations: 1) Cheap, department store bikes; 2) Expensive downhill bikes. Typically, air occupies the middle ground, or at least it does if you consider trail and all-mountain riding to be middle ground. Why is that?

Do things get complicated when you try to make an air shock act like a coil shock?

I hear people talk about "progression". Does the choice between air versus coil tend to affect the progressiveness of a shock? The plushness?

Lots of interesting questions. I'd love to see some discussion on them from those more knowledgeable.

More of the information is personal preference. Traditionally I hate how air shocks feel. They don't feel as smooth (simple mechanical action of stanchion moving up and down the lowers) and I also prefer the mechanical simplicity of a coil fork. I would also say in the past air forks tended to blow up under bigger riders and or really rough terrain (freeriding), while that doesn't always apply it definately chased a lot of riders away.

In the last 2 maybe 3 year air shocks have become more common as they have a decent price point now and have become very durable with large pistons and bodies.

I am sure a shock expert could explain in more exact details, I am just going by my experience and watching air suspension come into its own over the last few years.

Pete helps me a lot. I find his post are much needed around here.

I enjoy seeing how many people Pete can piss off in any given thread. And I too found the Camelbak related advice useful - I'm looking for a new one.

I enjoy seeing how many people Pete can piss off in any given thread. And I too found the Camelbak related advice useful - I'm looking for a new one.

FWIW, I have been thinking of getting something larger than the Mule and now that Pete mentionned the Deuter, I've started looking at them. There is a huge variety including one with built in armour. I don't need that but interesting to see the innovation.

For all you Deuter owners, what model do you use?

Seems like dMinor is opting for something other than a Deuter. They must have turned down his offer for sponsorship or he simply ran out of space in his sig. :p

Would be nice to turn this thread back to the original question. What are the tradeoffs between coil and air? What is it about coil that leads to it being more commonly used on high-travel, downhill and freeride bikes? I actually find it interesting that I see coil suspension used in two situations: 1) Cheap, department store bikes; 2) Expensive downhill bikes. Typically, air occupies the middle ground, or at least it does if you consider trail and all-mountain riding to be middle ground. Why is that?

Do things get complicated when you try to make an air shock act like a coil shock?

I hear people talk about "progression". Does the choice between air versus coil tend to affect the progressiveness of a shock? The plushness?

Lots of interesting questions. I'd love to see some discussion on them from those more knowledgeable.

The main disadvantage of coil springs is weight. Another is you must replace the coil itself to change the rate, and there are sometimes only three or four rates to choose from from the fork maker. A few advantages of coils are they can be wound in almost any straight or progressive rate, require no extra seals to cause drag, and are just about indestructable.

Air springs are progressive in nature. To counter this, most manufacturers have incorporated some type of negative spring (either adjustable air or a non-adjustable coil) to assist the fork in achieving full travel. Air springs weigh very little, but require extra seals that add drag, or "stiction" to the feel of the fork. Finally, those seals always have the possibility of wearing out and leaking. The adjustabilty of air, especially on modern forks with negative air chambers, is pretty amazing. They come close to the feel of coils, but you have to be willing to experiment with settings in each chamber to get the exact feel you're looking for.

The term "plush" is too ambiguous. It's thrown around a lot, but means very little.

Pete helps me a lot. I find his post are much needed around here.

Lately pete has been a tad snappy towards people.




Pete, take a chill pill.