View Full Version : Team TT
i am pretty new in watchin the TDF and i was watching a pervious TDF and i seen they had a team TT...why did they get rid of it? I would love to see that again
i am pretty new in watchin the TDF and i was watching a pervious TDF and i seen they had a team TT...why did they get rid of it? I would love to see that again
some years they have the team TT and some years they don't. they didn't get rid of it.
ed rader
same time
08-09-07, 10:04 AM
It's not in every year, and there has always been controversy over it. I agree with you, I'd love to see it, because it's beautiful to watch, and it reinforces the idea of bike racing as a team sport.
Lots of people don't like it, though. The argument against it is that it favors the big-money teams who can afford two or three good time trialists, and the latest time trial bike technology, and pretty much knocks the smaller, low-budget teams out of contention.
A lot of the riders, teams, and sponsors in the race would rather not have the TTT, because while it's difficult to gain any big advantage over the main rivals, it's definitely possible to lose a lot of time if a couple of people have a bad day, or even some bad luck. It's a lose-only proposition for the riders.
A few years ago, the Tour organizers tried to limit the damage that big teams could do to small teams by creating a time limit. I think it was four minutes, or something. No matter how slow the team rode, they couldn't lose more than four minutes to the winners. Nobody liked that, except maybe Iban Mayo.
It'll be interesting to see if the TTT is included next year, and if there will be a time limit rule.
some years they have the team TT and some years they don't. they didn't get rid of it.
ed rader
I was watching something with Lance... I forgot what, but he said it was a shame they got rid of it because the fans loved it. Overlayed over that were clips of the USPS team going through some TTT troubles.
Of course, he could be wrong seeing as how he really doesn't do it anymore and I am pretty sure what I watched was post-"retirement".
NotAsFat
08-09-07, 11:05 AM
What I'd like to see is a TT which simulates a long, solo break. At least 100k in length, regular mass start legal bikes and equipment only, and no drafting. That would be seriously cool. If the course contained the right mix of hills and flat, it would give the GC contenders a great opportunity to really strut their stuff.
Helmet Head
08-09-07, 11:15 AM
I was watching something with Lance... I forgot what, but he said it was a shame they got rid of it because the fans loved it. Overlayed over that were clips of the USPS team going through some TTT troubles.
Of course, he could be wrong seeing as how he really doesn't do it anymore and I am pretty sure what I watched was post-"retirement".
You misunderstood. It's virtually impossible for Lance to not know that they have not gotten rid of the TTT. I can't imagine him thinking or saying that they did.
I suspect it was an excerpt from an interview with him during the first Tour in which he won and there was no TTT. I think that was '02 or '03. What he might have said was something like, "too bad they got rid of the TTT", meaning "too bad they got rid of the TTT this year".
Helmet Head
08-09-07, 11:17 AM
What I'd like to see is a TT which simulates a long, solo break. At least 100k in length, regular mass start legal bikes and equipment only, and no drafting. That would be seriously cool. If the course contained the right mix of hills and flat, it would give the GC contenders a great opportunity to really strut their stuff.
Mass start and no drafting? How do 189 riders manage that?
Mass start and no drafting? How do 189 riders manage that?
release them at 30 minutes intervals. it will be a loooong stage :eek:!
ed rader
same time
08-09-07, 11:59 AM
Mass start and no drafting? How do 189 riders manage that?
I think he meant mass-start BIKES, as in, not time trial bikes. You would still start the riders 2min apart like a time trail.
I'm a pretty big bike racing fan, but I find time trials boring to watch. I usually just catch the very end, when the leaders are coming in, or skip it and read about it afterwards.
An extra-long time trial with no funny equipment? MAN that would be dull.
NotAsFat
08-09-07, 12:07 PM
Mass start and no drafting? How do 189 riders manage that?Not a mass start, just equipment that is legal to use in a mass-start race (no aero bars, disc wheels, etc). The idea is that every rider rides like he's on a long solo break. He has to manage his power output because the (100k) race is too long to just go LT all the way. Have enough climbing to weed out the TT specialists and enough flat to weed out the pure climbers, and you've got a showcase for the GC men. A real "race of truth".
I think he meant mass-start BIKES, as in, not time trial bikes. You would still start the riders 2min apart like a time trail.
I'm a pretty big bike racing fan, but I find time trials boring to watch. I usually just catch the very end, when the leaders are coming in, or skip it and read about it afterwards.
An extra-long time trial with no funny equipment? MAN that would be dull.
i think the TTs are much more interesting than the long, flat stages where the guys who are winning will have absolutely no outcome on the GC.
ed rader
I dunno if I particularly like the no-TT bikes idea, but they used to have much longer TTs than they seem to now. Back in the day they used to have TTs up in the 80km range.
I love the TTT. I think it's fabulous. During Lance's "reign" they cripple it a bit by putting in max fixed time intervals. Didn't particularly care for that, but Postal was pretty devastating in the TTT. One of my favorites was three or four years ago when Zabriskie was in yellow and CSC was riding last. Postal (or was it Discovery?) had the best time and CSC was on pace to beat them by just a couple seconds when Zabriskie ate the barrier in the last K or two.....great stuff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIZUnYfdVEk
Keith99
08-09-07, 12:44 PM
some years they have the team TT and some years they don't. they didn't get rid of it.
ed rader
I agree with what you said, no official announcment. But it is possible that it is gone 'forever'. It used to be sometimes the final stage was a ITT and sometimes a mass start stage. At some times the TT was the norm (Of the 5 times Merckx won 4 had an ITT as the final stage). I don't think there was ever an announcment that the final stage will not be an ITT, but since Lemond won on a final stge TT it has not happened again. If TTTs die I'll bet is the same way, just a fade out.
EDIT: I know that in one of Eddy's tours there were just 30, 20 and 10 second time bonuses for the first 3 teams in the TTT. Yet it seems all teams rode hard or at least at pace. In todays uberprofessional world of sports you can see what would happen here, maybe 4 or 5 teams really working and the rest just worrying about the cutoff time. A TTT has some problems in a stage race. It sort of has to be early on, you don't want it to come down to which team has lost the fewest riders. But if early if you limit time losses few teams will work hard, and if you let them get large it can lead to having too much influence.
NotAsFat
08-09-07, 12:45 PM
I think he meant mass-start BIKES, as in, not time trial bikes. You would still start the riders 2min apart like a time trail.
I'm a pretty big bike racing fan, but I find time trials boring to watch. I usually just catch the very end, when the leaders are coming in, or skip it and read about it afterwards.
An extra-long time trial with no funny equipment? MAN that would be dull.ITTs are often dull because they are usually too flat and too short to require riders to do anything but go flat out and hope they don't crash. A longer course, with a mix of hills and flat would require more strategy, would have more passes (TT specialist catches climber on the flats, only to get dropped on a climb), and the "standard" bikes would make it a question of who is stronger, not who spent more time in a wind tunnel.
I agree with what you said, no official announcment. But it is possible that it is gone 'forever'. It used to be sometimes the final stage was a ITT and sometimes a mass start stage. At some times the TT was the norm (Of the 5 times Merckx won 4 had an ITT as the final stage). I don't think there was ever an announcment that the final stage will not be an ITT, but since Lemond won on a final stge TT it has not happened again. If TTTs die I'll bet is the same way, just a fade out.
sure it's possible but i bet there will be more ITTs in the future.
ed rader
Bontrager
08-09-07, 01:11 PM
It's a shame they didn't have it this year. Cycling is a team sport. They have 2 ITT's. Never understood why they can't have one of each. I mean they have enough mountain and enough flat stages for the sprinters/climbers to show their stuff. What's wrong with gaining/losing time because your entire team can work as a well-oiled machine?
same time
08-09-07, 01:19 PM
EDIT: I know that in one of Eddy's tours there were just 30, 20 and 10 second time bonuses for the first 3 teams in the TTT. Yet it seems all teams rode hard or at least at pace. In todays uberprofessional world of sports you can see what would happen here, maybe 4 or 5 teams really working and the rest just worrying about the cutoff time. A TTT has some problems in a stage race. It sort of has to be early on, you don't want it to come down to which team has lost the fewest riders. But if early if you limit time losses few teams will work hard, and if you let them get large it can lead to having too much influence.
Maybe they could do a very short TTT, sort of like the prologue. No time limits or anything, just a 15km course. That way, time loss would be limited, but we fans would still get to see the team working together.
Come to think of it, didn't they used to have a short TTT on the same day as the prologue? Or am I thinking of the Giro.
merlinextraligh
08-09-07, 02:37 PM
^^^^
The rules don't allow for split stages anymore, so you can't do a TTT on the same day as another stage.
Obviously the TDF organizers can choose each year whether to have a TTT. However, given that they first limited its impact, and now have forgone it for several years, I wouldn't expect there to be a TTT in a future TDF anytime soon.
Seems to have gone the way of TT finish into Paris.
Seems to have gone the way of TT finish into Paris.
there was only one of those......nearly 20 years ago.
baj32161
08-09-07, 04:16 PM
^^^And we remember how THAT turned out don't we?
Keith99
08-09-07, 05:28 PM
there was only one of those......nearly 20 years ago.
Really?
Then just what was the final stage for every year from 1969 through 1973?
Edit:
My bad, 1964 through 1973?
SunSwingsLow
08-09-07, 06:31 PM
The TTT is probably one of the single most beautiful events in all of sports. Those helicopter shots are breath taking as they blaze the countryside. When you think of team sports in general there really isnt anything that compares to the symetry, strength and precision of a TTT.
I have missed it the past 2 years.
classic1
08-09-07, 06:52 PM
Really?
Then just what was the final stage for every year from 1969 through 1973?
Edit:
My bad, 1964 through 1973?
Ed wasn't born then, so it didn't happen.:p
Ed wasn't born then, so it didn't happen.:p
Fausto who?????
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