Clydesdales/Athenas (200+ lb / 91+ kg) - what is up with "athena"?

ok, first-time poster in this forum, whatever. i s'pose i'm by rights a "clydesdale", b/c i weigh over 200lbs. i never gave it much thought or worry. but, i *was* given pause when i noticed that the clydesdale forum is now the clydesdale/athena forum. why on earth is there gender specific terminology for this stuff? especially given that "clydesdale" does not hold any male-biased connotations. i mean, c'mon: a clydesdale is a hefty breed of horse. last time i checked, there were both male and female clydesdale *horses* out there, pulling carts and promoting beer. why isn't the term "clydesdale" acceptable for larger female riders, but it's ok for males?

to be honest, i've always felt it was odd that bigger riders felt the need to label and identify themselves as a critter apart from the cycling mainstream. it hardly seems like a positive thing to do, and aside from choice of wheelsets, my weight hasn't affected my cycling life very much.... but, as a feminist and a dude with massive interests in gender issues, i feel compelled to ask why we're thinning the herd any further with this talk of "athenas".

-rob

Clyde's and Athena's are racing classes originating in the Triathlon world. It spread from there. It signifies a larger and stronger athlete, basically. The Clyde is the strongest horse on the planet, so that's part of the reason there. The Athena aspect, I'm not sure HOW that came to use though, because Athena was the Goddess of wisdom. I suspect someone thought it was a cool classification name back then.
EDIT:
We do have separate needs from the more common cycling model though, in equipment, as well as training techniques. It doesn't matter to the bike whether you're 250 pounds of muscle or 250 pounds of sedentary couch potato getting back on the bike. The equipment is stressed in a similar manner.

The Clyde Athlete has disadvantages on hills with aerobic capacity on the uphill, but is like a bullet on the DH.

ok, first-time poster in this forum, whatever. i s'pose i'm by rights a "clydesdale", b/c i weigh over 200lbs. i never gave it much thought or worry. but, i *was* given pause when i noticed that the clydesdale forum is now the clydesdale/athena forum. why on earth is there gender specific terminology for this stuff? especially given that "clydesdale" does not hold any male-biased connotations. i mean, c'mon: a clydesdale is a hefty breed of horse. last time i checked, there were both male and female clydesdale *horses* out there, pulling carts and promoting beer. why isn't the term "clydesdale" acceptable for larger female riders, but it's ok for males?

to be honest, i've always felt it was odd that bigger riders felt the need to label and identify themselves as a critter apart from the cycling mainstream. it hardly seems like a positive thing to do, and aside from choice of wheelsets, my weight hasn't affected my cycling life very much.... but, as a feminist and a dude with massive interests in gender issues, i feel compelled to ask why we're thinning the herd any further with this talk of "athenas".

-rob

+1

I look at these forums because the advice in other forums does not often apply. a part that is "super strong" to 150 lb guy is not to a 250 lb guy. other people also like to talk about weight loss and such.

as for the naming, it seems like your really stretching to find a problem were one doesn't exist. seriously, there are a lot of f&^* up things going on in the world right now, the name of this forum doesn't rate.

I believe that when the forum was called clydesdales some felt that women didn't realize they were welcome. it was changed to let them know they are welcome. some women do not appreciate being compared to a large horse. most men do not seem to mind. therefore the names that are the least offensive were used. I fail to see how the term athena could be insulting. I'm not crazy about the name clydesdale, but oh well.

I could have that all wrong but that's what I remember happening.

I would think more about why you think this is an important issue.

bb

Bongo, you remember right.;):D
I look at these forums because the advice in other forums does not often apply. a part that is "super strong" to 150 lb guy is not to a 250 lb guy. other people also like to talk about weight loss and such.

as for the naming, it seems like your really stretching to find a problem were one doesn't exist. seriously, there are a lot of f&^* up things going on in the world right now, the name of this forum doesn't rate.

I believe that when the forum was called clydesdales some felt that women didn't realize they were welcome. it was changed to let them know they are welcome. some women do not appreciate being compared to a large horse. most men do not seem to mind. therefore the names that are the least offensive were used. I fail to see how the term athena could be insulting. I'm not crazy about the name clydesdale, but oh well.

I could have that all wrong but that's what I remember happening.

I would think more about why you think this is an important issue.

bb

I too, agree with Bongo. I have been called a horse by bike builders even before the term clyde came into use. My spouse certainly fits the Athena mold. Call her a Clydesdale and she just may bust your kneecap.

Yep...I'm thinkin' Clydesdale just sounds male.....and in a round-a-bout way may lead to your busted kneecap.....:)

*I* suppose this all came about because *I* started a thread asking if Athenas didn't feel welcome because we didn't have their title in the sub forum name. I asked about changing it some time back because I wanted to make sure the the women folk felt welcome here.

As for the terms, as Tom said, it comes from the Triathlon world....we didn't make them up and attempt to subdivide more. It was already that way.....we just wanted to make sure everybody KNEW they were welcome in here and it wasn't just male-oriented (at least that's why *I* originally brought up the idea of changing the name).

ZOMG triathlon?!?!?

i cannot imagine doing a triathlon at 230 lbs... then again, I guess a 6'8" foot tall triathlete would have to be in the 200lbs category

ZOMG triathlon?!?!?

i cannot imagine doing a triathlon at 230 lbs... then again, I guess a 6'8" foot tall triathlete would have to be in the 200lbs category

I seem to remember a 6'1" Ironman Competitor a few years back finishing and weighting in at 275 at the start of the race!

ZOMG triathlon?!?!?

i cannot imagine doing a triathlon at 230 lbs... then again, I guess a 6'8" foot tall triathlete would have to be in the 200lbs category

I couldn't imagine it at 6' 2" 210, but now I've done three, with another scheduled for September. My athena wife (oops, she's no longer in that category - all that training has shrunk her) has done two as well. I'm not the largest competitor in the field by far. Triathletes come in all shapes, sizes and ages.

Jim <--- swim, bike, run...repeat

There's something so "right", in a greek mythology sense, about a Clydesdale and an Athena romance. It's like Zeus turning into a swan/bull/whatever.

I'd rather be an Athena than a Clyde. :eek:

I, personally, kinda take issue with the shortened version of Clydesdale: Clyde.

Isn't that slang for an uncool or square person?

I wouldn't want to be called a clyde for that reason alone...

But apart from that, there's really no such thing as fat people and skinny people. We're all just people. Some of us just weigh more... some of us are working to fix it, some aren't... which is one of the reasons I take exception when some people criticize others for being fat when they're working on fixing it! Clearly they aren't going to be fat for much longer, so they aren't a "fat person", because that implies a constant, persistent state. State changes, you're not still a "fat person".

I, personally, kinda take issue with the shortened version of Clydesdale: Clyde.

Isn't that slang for an uncool or square person?

I wouldn't want to be called a clyde for that reason alone...

But apart from that, there's really no such thing as fat people and skinny people. We're all just people. Some of us just weigh more... some of us are working to fix it, some aren't... which is one of the reasons I take exception when some people criticize others for being fat when they're working on fixing it! Clearly they aren't going to be fat for much longer, so they aren't a "fat person", because that implies a constant, persistent state. State changes, you're not still a "fat person".
Nope, you're thinking of "Fred", not Clyde.;)

Being a Clyde is pretty cool in my book!:D

Allow me to amend my previous statement, having done further research.

Clyde, I have found, is slang for "a normal person", from the point of view of a Beatnik, an un-hip or unstylish person, from the point of view of a 1960's lounge singer on Star Trek: DS9, a clumsy person, according to Urban Dictionary and other sources, and, as short for the slang term of Clydesdale, a handsome man.

So I guess it all depends on who's saying it, eh?

Well, here it's a badge of Honor!:D

See, one source of confusion is that women have different opinions on the matter, too. It's not like there's any set of rules for this sort of thing. We all have our own visions on how we think it should be between the sexes. So a guy can consider himself as considerate towards woman's issues, but the women around him may tell him, "No, that's not how this* group feels."

One interesting thing I've noticed is that there have been several threads on "how to get my girlfriend/wife to bike more" or "what kind of bike should I get my S.O.", but no similar threads from women....

I am offended by anyone who is offended by this. I am offended by anyone who is offended by anything that I am not offended by. I am offended at myself for not being able to write a coherent post. In fact, many people just call me offensive.

Joe

*raises hand*

what's a Fred? :o

*raises hand*

what's a Fred? :o

http://www.80stees.com/images/products/The_Flintstones_Animated_Series_Fred_Flintstone-Costume.jpg

Actually, think "The 40 Year Old Virgin". That character was a Fred.;):D

I am a bit perplexed by the fact that Athenas don't necessarily have the same gear issues at the weight cut-off that we do as Clydes at 200+ pounds. There's no problem using all the lightweight stuff you want if you are 160, but 215-??? puts you in a whole different place in regards to snapped pedal spindles and wobbling wheels.

I am a bit perplexed by the fact that Athenas don't necessarily have the same gear issues at the weight cut-off that we do as Clydes at 200+ pounds. There's no problem using all the lightweight stuff you want if you are 160, but 215-??? puts you in a whole different place in regards to snapped pedal spindles and wobbling wheels.

In the case of the Athena's, from what I've seen, the 150 point is where the ladies used to have trouble finding cycling clothes that would fit. This isn't the case anymore as the manufacturers actually have realized that people of larger statures are riding. Also, a woman in the Athena class is often FAR stronger than her lighter contemporaries.:D

*raises hand*

what's a Fred? :o

I'm a fred. I wore a dark blue top with black shorts and brown suede "toe-clip-narrow" shoes with white athletic socks this morning--AND sunglasses with a little mirror on it. And I was riding an old steel 10-speed that was red. Or at least, I would* be a fred if I could out-pace a roadie. I wasn't moving too fast today, but I went up some BIG hills.

Part of being a Fred is that even though people discount them when they see them, they become impressed by thier performance.

Hmmm. Kinda like a Clyde!

My spouse certainly fits the Athena mold. Call her a Clydesdale and she just may bust your kneecap.
And really, what further explanation is needed? :D ;)

I'd rather be an Athena than a Clyde.

and a beautiful one at that

*raises hand*

what's a Fred? :o

When I hear the term Fred, I think of "the opposite of the roadie's in high end carbon bikes with full kit race team uniforms". Freds are usually the people riding an old vintage Schwinn with a trunk rack and a big trunk bag on the back, maybe a basket in the front. Often they're wearing baggy bike shorts and a high-viz (hey, that's me) shirt, if they are wearing bike clothes at all (may be wearing jeans and flannel).

Fred's are the ones who don't "look" like real cyclists, but may have been riding this way for 20 years.

trolllllllllll!

I would rather be called a FAT GUY than a Clydesdale. :D

I guess I will have to deal with the improper name calling here.....at least there are nice people with good advice. I am a jerk, so I'll try to keep my comments to myself or in a different forum.

-Kurt
aka Fifth Circle
aka FAT GUY

I am a bit perplexed by the fact that Athenas don't necessarily have the same gear issues at the weight cut-off that we do as Clydes at 200+ pounds. There's no problem using all the lightweight stuff you want if you are 160, but 215-??? puts you in a whole different place in regards to snapped pedal spindles and wobbling wheels.

I guess you are asumming (which is nice thank you) that women who are active don't weigh over 200 lbs. Well I am tall and unfortunately heavy and indeed weigh over 200 lbs so have the same issues as men regarding components, frames, wheels etc. I have other issues that men don't have to deal with. Men's cycling jerseyswill come in XL and XXL sizes. Womens seldom come in an XL and even then, sizing is very small. Even worse, women's jerseys are made very short. I have no problem with them fitting my shoulders and chest but they short just above my waist. When you are heavy, last thing you need is all that spandex showing! Thankfully shorts aren't such a problem as my hips and legs are comparably normal to my shoulder sand chests (and yes my stomach).

And it is appropriate to call women Athenas - as Athena was a stately woman, the protecter of cities. She was always protrayed as large and in charge! ;)

BCIpam - if you ever find tall women's jerseys, let me know!!

And it is appropriate to call women Athenas - as Athena was a stately woman, the protecter of cities. She was always protrayed as large and in charge! ;)

I don't have the fitting problems of an Athena, but I've certainly read and seen enough to know that these are indeed issues!

I've been mulling over the Clydesdales/Athena nomenclature, and my personal belief is that when questioned, women pointed out that, although Clydesdales are a beautiful draught horse, there are a few things about them:

They have VERY large hoofs. They are beautifully feathered, but those are some whoppin' big feet. Most women don't have feet that large. Or that hairy.

They have extremely large, powerful hindquarters. Now, this is what makes them great draught horses, but um, being as tactful as I can--most women really don't want attention called to their big rear ends, ok?

But Athena--that's a woman of Stature. A Goddess. A companion of heroes...

East Hill

I think you can try so hard to be PC that you wind up not being PC.

It's just a name.

ZOMG triathlon?!?!?

i cannot imagine doing a triathlon at 230 lbs... then again, I guess a 6'8" foot tall triathlete would have to be in the 200lbs category

I've done a handful of sprint tris at 250 and am currently training for the real thing. only hard part is gettin' almost nekkid for swim training...

BCIpam - if you ever find tall women's jerseys, let me know!!

It 'tis my quest!!!!

Right now I'm stuck with guy jerseys because they seem long enough but I would love to purchase some girly patterns and prints.

I'm waiting for someone to start a custom clothing site (you know just one jersey not 50) and I can order nice girly jerseys made longer.

Anyone interested?

(snip)
as for the naming, it seems like your really stretching to find a problem were one doesn't exist. seriously, there are a lot of f&^* up things going on in the world right now, the name of this forum doesn't rate.

I believe that when the forum was called clydesdales some felt that women didn't realize they were welcome. it was changed to let them know they are welcome. some women do not appreciate being compared to a large horse. most men do not seem to mind. therefore the names that are the least offensive were used. I fail to see how the term athena could be insulting. I'm not crazy about the name clydesdale, but oh well.

I would think more about why you think this is an important issue. (snip)
bb


i think i find the idea of solidarity--among people in general, in particular among cyclists and other folk who're doing something good (for themselves, their communities, the planet) but sometimes get penalized for it--to be an important issue. therefore, i get perplexed when cyclists on the small-scale and/or people in general on the large-scale start to get singled out and placed in a subcategory. i get even more confused when the ppl who're possibly being marginalized embrace this type of nomenclature.

the origins of the terms--coming from the tri-world--totally makes sense to me. also, as a heavy bro, i can see the vlaue of these forums, as they more'n likely help with selection of gear, both in terms of fit and durability.

as for being pc, i don't generally worry about being pc. i mostly strive for logical thought, and logic occasionally coincides with pc stuff. (obviously, that's not always the case!)

i guess, all in all, i just sorta think that ppl are ppl, cyclists are cyclists, and i don't feel like i need to look at myself in terms of weight class or gender whilst on my bike, unless i'm formally competing, or dealing with weight- or gender-specific cycling issues.

of course, opinions on this'll vary.

-rob

It 'tis my quest!!!!

Right now I'm stuck with guy jerseys because they seem long enough but I would love to purchase some girly patterns and prints.

I'm waiting for someone to start a custom clothing site (you know just one jersey not 50) and I can order nice girly jerseys made longer.

Anyone interested?

You might look here:

http://www.jeksports.com , I'm not sure on their sizing, but they do full custom.

i guess, all in all, i just sorta think that ppl are ppl, cyclists are cyclists, and i don't feel like i need to look at myself in terms of weight class or gender whilst on my bike, unless i'm formally competing, or dealing with weight- or gender-specific cycling issues.

of course, opinions on this'll vary.

-rob

Rob, I'm quoting you but this is a general statement to everyone.

It's a compention thing. Any sport where weight is an issue, will divide people up based on their weight, to even out the competion. Take for example wresting, real wrestling like, highschool, college or olympics, not the fake stuff on TV. There are many weight classes to even out the competion. The sport wouldn't be fair if the a 175lb wrestler was able to compete directly against a 145lb wrestler. Cycling and cyclist have an obsetion with weight. The names may be odd, but they are just a name.

Bicycles by nature are small compared to the sized of the rider. Therefore there are different issues that heavier riders have to deal with. I've never been much of a "group" person, but being part of a sub-catory is a simple part of life. I don't believe it warrents being made into a big deal.