Foo - Is it better to live in ignorant bliss, or attempt to understand and accept life’s ha

Is it better to live in ignorant bliss, or attempt to understand and accept life’s harsh realities?

As ones cognitive abilities increase throughout childhood and adolescence protective and/or entertaining constructs society inflicts upon youngsters are gradually removed. Even though a young boy may cry when his parents inform him that Santa Clause does not exist and that, in truth, Christmas is driven by commercialistic self-serving motives; people understand that this painful realization is important for his long term good as certainly any adult who believes in Santa would be mocked cruelly by his peers. Fortunately for everyone, the tears dry quickly and the very plastic child almost instantly evolves to greater level of understanding incorporating the new found knowledge into a working schema that still allows for the enjoyment of Christmas.

Eventually the child grows into an adult and realizes that the true joy of Christmas is the joy of giving not receiving. Ideally the story ends there with the person believing that they are truly altruistic in their gift giving and that the joy on the receivers face is all that they need. Now what happens if the person’s cognitive abilities enable then to progress to the next level of understanding, should that be encouraged?

In reality there are no altruistic acts, be it volunteerism, providing orgasm-producing stimulus to others, or even the soothing of an infants crying… you name it. All actions are self-serving like it or not. Evolutionary and operant conditioning theories, among others, all explain how emotional contagion is the reason why we enjoy making others feel better when sad or making them feel really great at other more randy times. It’s not because we really want them to be happy, it is because them being happy makes YOU feel good (warm fuzzies). Similarly the desire to reduce another’s suffering is due to your OWN negative feelings evoked when you see someone else cry (that and the removal of annoying stimuli like crying noises).

So the question at hand is “when is it better to live in ignorant bliss rather than accept the unpleasant truths?” At what point does further understanding of behaviorism, or excessive introspection and meta-analysis become a bad thing?
This came up recently when I attempted to explain the actions of forum members in a certain thread that is popular due to simple Id impulse satisfaction. The moderators of this board apparently decided for all of you that you are meant to live in ignorant bliss, BTW. The idea I proposed wasn’t even very radical; all I suggested is that people use their appearance as a currency in order to get attention –usually sexual- in an attempt feel better about themselves and bolster self-esteem. GASP don’t tell the makeup, clothing, plastic surgery, etc, etc industries...

Could this understanding have led to an adaptation where an improved mental schema allows for self-validation, freeing them of this pseudo whoring of themselves? Or would it just be taken as an insult, as they do not have the mental capacity to reach the next cognitive level?

Attempting to understand behaviors should also include why someone might......oh, for example, try to discuss behaviorism in a thread about a completely different topic when in that particular thread, it was apparent that it was just light hearted fun. My field happens to BE behavioral studies, by the way, so this thread is of particular interest to me...

Are you interested in Adler's work on what motivates behaviors? If so, what motivated yours in this particular instance, in your mind? I'm truly curious.

Are you saying that...there's really no Santa Claus? :eek:

Thanks alot. Y'know...There's alot to be said for delusional thinking.

<slinkin' away, scarred for life>

No, there is no Virginia.

Attempting to understand behaviors should also include why someone might......oh, for example, try to discuss behaviorism in a thread about a completely different topic when in that particular thread, it was apparent that it was just light hearted fun. My field happens to BE behavioral studies, by the way, so this thread is of particular interest to me...

Are you interested in Adler's work on what motivates behaviors? If so, what motivated yours in this particular instance, in your mind? I'm truly curious.

The discussion had clearly turned towards why people were posting their images; I didn’t start that. In fact, only after a couple pages of feel-good yes-men answers that lacked any real content did I submit my opinion.

Attempts at disparaging me due to my opinion are to be expected. However, an intelligent man such as yourself should learn to discuss the issue impartially instead of taking the easy path of weakening the debater’s validity. This is not about me, or any individual in particular; it is only a thought experiment.

I don't think foo is the place for heavy thought. :rolleyes:

Thanks alot. Y'know...There's alot to be said for delusional thinking.


Exactly. For example we know that depressed and anxious persons tend to spend way too much time dwelling on reoccurring negative thoughts and that cognitive therapy where they consciously attack and devalue these thoughts is an effective treatment.

I am entirely aware that ignorance may well be bliss.

The discussion had clearly turned towards why people were posting their images; I didn’t start that. In fact, only after a couple pages of feel-good yes-men answers that lacked any real content did I submit my opinion.

Attempts at disparaging me due to my opinion are to be expected. However, an intelligent man such as yourself should learn to discuss the issue impartially instead of taking the easy path of weakening the debater’s validity. This is not about me, or any individual in particular; it is only a thought experiment.His question sounded like an sincere one, to me. I didn't see what you wrote but I can guess at the gist of it from your opinions, here.

Stipulating that what you say about human nature is true (I'm inclined to agree, anyway, but that's beside the point), what's the payoff for you to have brought it up?

I have no problem with the question, and wasn't weakening your position by making it personal, I was just wondering what motivated you to post it in that particular thread, instead of starting one like you did here.

Did someone say orgasm?

what's the payoff for you to have brought it up?

I genuinely don’t know the answer to the question I posed. Is ignorance bliss, and would I be better served by avoiding any further insights into behaviorism as generally the more I learn the more I realize that mankind is horrible?

I have no problem with the question, and wasn't weakening your position by making it personal, I was just wondering what motivated you to post it in that particular thread, instead of starting one like you did here.

I was simply contributing to the disscusion at hand, albeit with a different opinon. The censoring moderator suggested I start this thread.

I genuinely don’t know the answer to the question I posed. Is ignorance bliss, and would I be better served by avoiding any further insights into behaviorism as generally the more I learn the more I realize that mankind is horrible?Oh, so you posted a question there? I got the impression (sorry, this is what I get for jumping in where I don't know the history!) that you'd said something along the lines of, "Well, you all KNOW why you're posting these photos, right?"

I personally think it's better to know. And accept, all Zen-like. :p What is, is, and ignoring or or being ignorant of it doesn't in most cases make anyone happier, IMO.

I genuinely don’t know the answer to the question I posed. Is ignorance bliss, and would I be better served by avoiding any further insights into behaviorism as generally the more I learn the more I realize that mankind is horrible?

Well, here's my take....

Each individual is responsible to answer that question for themselves. This is like asking someone if they are for or against religion, or any other completely polarizing question, and you have to decide for yourself whether or not you want the answers. Others have that right to decide for themselves as well, by the way and this needs to be respected as well.

My question for you now......in counterpoint to yours,

Where is the harm? Does it hurt people to post pictures in this thread or is it merely a harmless entertainment that you are reading FAR too much into? You have to beware of projecting your own feelings/insecurities/issues into a question of behavioral studies, after all. Is it their insecurities, or is it yours? Think about your response honestly.....

Is it better to live in ignorant bliss, or attempt to understand and accept life’s harsh realities?


So the question at hand is “when is it better to live in ignorant bliss rather than accept the unpleasant truths?” At what point does further understanding of behaviorism, or excessive introspection and meta-analysis become a bad thing?


Could this understanding have led to an adaptation where an improved mental schema allows for self-validation, freeing them of this pseudo whoring of themselves? Or would it just be taken as an insult, as they do not have the mental capacity to reach the next cognitive level?

Posturing on the internet aside, assigning values ("harsh realities"; "unpleasant truths") to other people's motives seems a bit presumptive. Maybe it's not delusion or artifice...maybe it's hope...maybe it's play...maybe it's courage on a supportive and forgiving platform.

So the question at hand is “when is it better to live in ignorant bliss rather than accept the unpleasant truths?” At what point does further understanding of behaviorism, or excessive introspection and meta-analysis become a bad thing?
I don't think there is ever any point where a lack of understanding is preferable.

And why is the "truth" always viewed as unpleasant?

I personally think it's better to know. And accept, all Zen-like. :p What is, is, and ignoring or or being ignorant of it doesn't in most cases make anyone happier, IMO.

This.

Everywhere I look, I see happy idiots. Maybe ignorance really is bliss. I know that as I age, my childhood seems idylic in retrospect. I know, intellectually, that it was less than that. Also, the more I know, the less "happy" I seem to be. Not to say I'm unhappy, but "contented" seems to be the best word for how I feel. Not happy, not unhappy. Zen-like. Also, more zen-like the more I ride.

What is, is. There are thing I can change and things that I can't change. I can accept this and exist with it.

Maybe knowledge is the enemy of happiness. Or something like that. Or maybe I've just been reading too much, again.

I don't think there is ever any point where a lack of understanding is preferable.

And why is the "truth" always viewed as unpleasant?

I don't know, but "The truth hurts" is a popular saying for a reason, no? Maybe because the truth forces us to look at ourselves in a harsher light than we'd like to?

People lie most to themselves, right? When we hear the truth it hurts because we feel more comfortable hearing those lies we told ourselves to take the sharp edges of reality off. Wishfull thinking.

Hopefully thats enough mental ************ out of me for now.

P.S. I love this thread! Also, I just noticed that the OP has a skull for his avatar and basically asked Hamlet's famous question. I loves me some serendipity!

Where is the harm? Does it hurt people to post pictures in this thread or is it merely a harmless entertainment?

We all, of course, like to hear we are attractive on occasion but a line can be drawn where one actively seeks and needs that attention. There is real potential for harm if that type of behavior progresses to the next level. Surly you understand that nightclubs are filled with people who end up doing things at the end of the night for a similar self-esteem quick fix that may have severe ramifications. I am not saying it can’t be done in fun, nor am I suggesting anyone here has taken it to that desperate level, but if they really are in a bad emotional place (insecure and needy) I would not consider it an appropriate behavior.

Sadly, just like may other things in life, those who need things most are denied them.

Sadly, just like may other things in life, those who need things most are denied them.



...or defined by them.



Is it possible that you reached your conclusions along the same lines as Aaron T. Beck?

The truth shall set you free. Believing this and knowing that what I do and how I relate to others engenders self-satisfaction or disgust allows me to provide for others well being and and honestly enjoy it. It also allows me to ask for and receive help (emotional, physical, or spiritual) without being embarrassed when someone points out that I am doing so.
When I didn't know better I was unable to truly experience the moments in which I caused another to feel good. I was also less able to cope with other's disappointment.
This awareness came upon me over time.
I can not say whether this awareness would help or harm anyone else.
I am happy that you experienced this particular slight. It has created food for thought. I hope that you don't get too distracted when others can't help but question your motivations

My answers to your questions:
(W)hen is it better to live in ignorant bliss rather than accept the unpleasant truths?
Until you are ready.

At what point does further understanding of behaviorism, or excessive introspection and meta-analysis become a bad thing?
When it becomes a hindrance to you overall ability to enjoy your life?

At what point does further understanding of behaviorism, or excessive introspection and meta-analysis become a bad thing?
When it becomes a hindrance to you overall ability to enjoy your life?


Exactly.


An old man asked me recently, as I went through my latest existiential crisis involving being disappointed by emotionally unreliable relationships:


"Once you have understood everything there is to be understood, what good will it do you?"


In this world we have many, many psycological and spiritual needs that seem to trump the fact that all we really need is food, water, waste, sex and sleep.

Not much has changed since we wore mud. Back then, men and women grouped together and called each other out after showing displays of strength and beauty.

Maybe, just maybe if one were to not overanalyze every little thing and take it all in stride, life would unveil more of it's subtle mysteries...many of which do not revolve around humans.

If you think mankind's silly posturing is depressing, then maybe you are putting too much emphasis on the goings-on of our little tribal shuffle.

In the overall scheme of things, it's all pretty insignificant really. That's the only part that bothers me, having to instill meaning where there truly is none.

But I'm a writer and an artist. That's my job.:)

Of all the 400,000,000,000,000* bits of information streaming at us per minute all we can ever hope to actualy grasp and retain is about 26*. (*completely made up for illustration purposes)

This isn't a defeatist 'give up'. But learn to enjoy the moment and don't get too entangled in trying to understand it all. The more you know the more you realise you don't know.

Eat, drink, laugh, screw, ride, love, skip etc etc

What are youze guize talkin' aboot?

What are youze guize talkin' aboot?

Don't get excited Stacey - someone is just learning to think.

So, it appears that the assumption is, the more you know, the less happy you are. How sad. Learn more - many very intelligent people who don't have their head stuck in the sand are very happy. There is a phase where you learn that you don't live in a magical kingdom and you are disappointed. Lots of people stay there instead of looking around and seeing how wonderful life really is.

I am going to make an assumption here that perhaps the original comments were in regard to photos of people and people's positive strokes about said photos. Well, my wife thinks I am handsome - I think she has bad eyesight. ;) I think she is the most beautiful woman in the world - she is very good looking by most standards - but I see also her personality and her history with me. After all, as they say, beauty is more than skin deep.

Is this delusional? It would be for you - it isn't for me. If you are merely attracted by the physical, you will get what you deserve because the REALITY is that physically, we are all wasting away. Learn to deal with reality in a positive way instead of having it make you unhappy. You are unhappy because you feel reality isn't a positive thing. Learn to be happy about reality - much better don't you think? After all, the reality is that we choose what to be happy about.

You all have to know how ridiculous it appears while I sit here in the middle of the third world nation who is having issues with people coming in from another third world nation because things are better here... to have people in one of the riches countries of the world complain about life. Truly money does not buy happiness.

I have friends down here who are very excited this week because it looks like in not too many more days, they will be able to upgrade from living in a converted chicken shed to an abandoned house. The converted chicken shed has the grandparents, parents and 3 girls. Thankfully it was a big chicken shed. :rolleyes:They are happy because they see progress in their lives and hope - and don't expect life to be fair. In fact, they are happy because they escaped Nicaragua during the war - when some of their family didn't and was killed right in front of them in a rather brutal way.

Don't think they don't see reality - they do - they just choose to focus on the future and that they are building something better for their children, not on their past. They don't focus on all the things they don't have, that they wish they did. That seems to be a disease of affluent nations.

Perhaps I am happy because of the following reality. My life is incredibly better than most people's on this planet. If you want to be happy, get a passport and travel, but don't go to where the rich and famous go - go to where the everyday people live in third world countries. You will see that first, you have it good and secondly, they are often happier than you.

okay, off the soapbox for now.

Jeez, Tom, aren't you the manipulative fox.

Everybody is here to get needs met, whether one posts pics or looks at them, whether one submits a post or censors one. Tom and the mods are here to get their needs met, just like anyone else.

Deleting/censorsing someone else's post is a form of communication just like posting. Mods have more power than anyone else to decide what a thread is about, both by posting and deleting the posts of others. Tom disingenuously demanding honesty from Enthalpic is rhetorical eye candy. :)

I think you're reaching a bit far, Enthalpic, in arguing that the mods censorship in the women's pics thread can be explained by grand theories of ignorance and bliss. And the id? Please.

Censorship is a pretty clumsy form of communication, and I think the mods have been particulalry marmish in that thread. But, I agree more with their idea of what the thread should be about than your own. It's about babes showing their pictures, dude, in a sweet sort of way.

But, just between you and me, American anti-intellectualism combined with its cult of body-mind dualism pretty much determines both the censorship and your reaction to it. No American is going to believe that one can think and be sexual at the same time. To paraphrase Rdad, here in the United States of Foo there ain't no heavy thinkin', least not when our heads are thunkin'.

Is it better to live in ignorant bliss, or attempt to understand and accept life’s harsh realities?

Participate joyfully in the sorrows of this world.

By the way - I don't recall many older ignorant people who seemed particularly happy. Usually they are pretty miserable from what I can tell. Having a false view of reality has a way of really getting you as you get older.

So the question at hand is “when is it better to live in ignorant bliss rather than accept the unpleasant truths?” At what point does further understanding of behaviorism, or excessive introspection and meta-analysis become a bad thing?

Could this understanding have led to an adaptation where an improved mental schema allows for self-validation, freeing them of this pseudo whoring of themselves? Or would it just be taken as an insult, as they do not have the mental capacity to reach the next cognitive level?


I haven't had enough coffee this morning to reach the next cognitive level, so I'll let the lolcats speak for me...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a284/Taerom/bikeforums/2001819576783355739_rs.jpg

Is it better to live in ignorant bliss, or attempt to understand and accept life’s harsh realities?

neither. choose only one and you're missing out on what life has to offer.

I am encouraged that several of you are contributing to the discussion, thank you. So what is the current vote at… Ignorance: 2 Understanding: 4 with a few others on the fence.

The rest of you, however, seem to be unable to separate your assumptions about me from the discussion. I will first repeat that I would like this to remain on topic and not warp into a collective berating of me because I refuse to follow the adolescent herd mentality so common in foo.

Secondly I will dismiss some of the assumptions that have come up about me in hoping they won’t be repeated or assimilated into people responses.

I am not unhappy. I am content; in fact I very much like the explanation offered by Grugus. Just as I do not become sad when I find out that children are dying of AIDS in Africa I do not become sad when I learn that mankind is driven by disappointingly simple desires. Both situations do make me think less of the world in general, but it does not elicit an emotional response. If you wanted to argue that having a blunted emotion response is a psychological morbidity I would entertain such a discussion. So no, I am not about to go cry. On the contrary I am finding this quite entertaining; both from reading the on topic contributions and from reading the responses of those who seem to violently oppose any discussion encroaching on their precious mindless banter.

Is it possible that you reached your conclusions along the same lines as Aaron T. Beck?

I am unaware of his work, tell me more.

I haven't had enough coffee this morning to reach the next cognitive level, so I'll let the lolcats speak for me...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a284/Taerom/bikeforums/2001819576783355739_rs.jpg

Taerom has the answer.

You all have to know how ridiculous it appears while I sit here in the middle of the third world nation who is having issues with people coming in from another third world nation because things are better here... to have people in one of the riches countries of the world complain about life. Truly money does not buy happiness.


Aren’t you the guy with all sorts of personal employees like cooks, butlers etc? “Jeeves go fetch me a grilled cheese sandwich and a fresh mango while I explain how hard life is here.” Anyways I am not unhappy so your points are moot.

I am encouraged that several of you are contributing to the discussion, thank you. So what is the current vote at… Ignorance: 2 Understanding: 4 with a few others ont the fence.

i'm not on the fence. its situational. and if you go thru life choosing one significantly more often than the other....then you either miss out on experiencing all of the emotions life can stir up OR you become so cynical that you aren't able to enjoy the little things in life.

I'm certainly not being disingenuous here. First, I wasn't the one that edited the thread. Second, I was genuinely curious as to the answers to the question I counterpointed with.

As to the Mods here, I'd love it if the boards didn't need ANY moderation, because then I could just have fun here and participate without the idea in the back of everyones mind of "Gotta behave, the Principal is in the room".:(
Jeez, Tom, aren't you the manipulative fox.

Everybody is here to get needs met, whether one posts pics or looks at them, whether one submits a post or censors one. Tom and the mods are here to get their needs met, just like anyone else.

Deleting/censorsing someone else's post is a form of communication just like posting. Mods have more power than anyone else to decide what a thread is about, both by posting and deleting the posts of others. Tom disingenuously demanding honesty from Enthalpic is rhetorical eye candy. :)

I think you're reaching a bit far, Enthalpic, in arguing that the mods censorship in the women's pics thread can be explained by grand theories of ignorance and bliss. And the id? Please.

Censorship is a pretty clumsy form of communication, and I think the mods have been particulalry marmish in that thread. But, I agree more with their idea of what the thread should be about than your own. It's about babes showing their pictures, dude, in a sweet sort of way.

But, just between you and me, American anti-intellectualism combined with its cult of body-mind dualism pretty much determines both the censorship and your reaction to it. No American is going to believe that one can think and be sexual at the same time. To paraphrase Rdad, here in the United States of Foo there ain't no heavy thinkin', least not when our heads are thunkin'.

I haven't had enough coffee this morning to reach the next cognitive level, so I'll let the lolcats speak for me...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a284/Taerom/bikeforums/2001819576783355739_rs.jpg

To add onto Taerom's extremely intellectual response. Why must you hate life enthalipaicpic?

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/01/2000869536009464266_rs.jpg

Is it really hating life? Or is it just questioning things that so many of us never think of, cause we are too busy finding pictures of cats & putting quotes on them?

This entire thread is based on his bitterness that some of his posts were deleted in a thread that went off topic. Get over it. Go outside, enjoy the sunshine.

i'm not on the fence. its situational. and if you go thru life choosing one significantly more often than the other....then you either miss out on experiencing all of the emotions life can stir up OR you become so cynical that you aren't able to enjoy the little things in life.

I agree with that statement. Certainly at times we should just enjoy what we are presented with, even if it can be explained scientifically. It’s not like I am not thinking about serotonin and norepinephrine reuptake and histamine rushes when I am turned on. :)

I have a question for someone who claims to be an “understander” who enjoys all the fruits others have to offer. Is it ok to use the understanding of how people work in order to obtain pleasures for yourself? Lets say, for example, one develops a scientific methodology for separating a women from her thong (dannoxyz anyone) is it ok to do such a thing? Maxim and Cosmo certainly would say so.

I wasn't the one that edited the thread.

LOL. That's partly why I found your post disengenous. Three card monte.

And are you speaking here as a BF mod, or as just another fool?


Second, I was genuinely curious as to the answers to the question I counterpointed with.

.:(

Whenever someone intones that they are "genuinely concerned" about another's opinion it's fair warning that they genuinely are not.

Your questions were leading him toward saying that he was off-topic, and toward your own area of expertise, behaviorism. Dude has steadily held that he was as on topic as anyone else in that particular digression, and he's the last person in the world to use the word id!

On-topic is whatever a mod decides on-topic is. And if a mod decides to delete a post, it communicates something about the mod's point of view. Given the hilarious way threads roam about on foo, including digressions started by you yourself Prof. Stormcrowe, the whole notion of on-topic or off-topic is rather nebulous. I find it hilarious that "off-topic" is given as a reason for the deletion. And disengenuous.

Not that I'm against the deletion, btw. Or moderation. Or disengenousness. Drown me in the shallow water, my philosophy.

And I'd consider hiring you for any future litigation needs. :)

Aren’t you the guy with all sorts of personal employees like cooks, butlers etc? “Jeeves go fetch me a grilled cheese sandwich and a fresh mango while I explain how hard life is here.” Anyways I am not unhappy so your points are moot.

Yes, I am the person with all sorts of employees - and have kids your age. Pretty amusing to be called adolescent by someone who is wet behind the ears.

Yes, they take care of me, and I take care of them. I am making their life better (i.e. I pay well and they have health care, retirement, disability) what are you doing? Just giving people money is a very bad idea. Opportunities are better.

Oh, no butler - just cooks, farm managers, workers, wood workers, mechanics, etc.

So, according to your reasoning - you are delusional because you are happy?

Thanks......I think?:eek:

and I really was curious. I like understanding how people think is all, and what the content of an answer is says less to me than how they structure their answer, if ya know what I mean.;)

By the way, in this thread, I'm just lil' ol' me, Tom Stormcrowe. In this particular thread, here, I consider this Switzerland and recuse myself from Mod duties, someone else can deal with this thread from a Mods POV.
LOL. That's partly why I found your post disengenous. Three card monte.

And are you speaking here as a BF mod, or as just another fool?



Whenever someone intones that they are "genuinely concerned" about another's opinion it's fair warning that they genuinely are not.

Your questions were leading him toward saying that he was off-topic, and toward your own area of expertise, behaviorism. Dude has steadily held that he was as on topic as anyone else in that particular digression, and he's the last person in the world to use the word id!

On-topic is whatever a mod decides on-topic is. And if a mod decides to delete a post, it communicates something about the mod's point of view. Given the hilarious way threads roam about on foo, including digressions started by you yourself Prof. Stormcrowe, the whole notion of on-topic or off-topic is rather nebulous. I find it hilarious that "off-topic" is given as a reason for the deletion. And disengenuous.

Not that I'm against the deletion, btw. Or moderation. Or disengenousness. Drown me in the shallow water, my philosophy.

And I'd consider hiring you for any future litigation needs. :)

OOOOH, cool! Ethics! Yes, it can be done, but no, I don't believe it should be (The panties/separation from reference). If you look at it from an ethics POV, it's situationally dependent.

When it is good to manipulate based off of knowledge of behavior:

National Security issues: Behavioral studies and use of this knowledge beat torture hands down for effective acquisition of intelligence data
Community Safety: Tracking a serial killer and using his behaviors to understand and apprehend him
When a persons life/health is at risk from high risk behavior and manipulation will do more good than harm in teaching them better coping strategies.

There are more, but this is a very basic framework.

When it's wrong:


When it will damage someone
When it is done for exclusive personal gain at the cost of the other persons self respect
When it is done to establish unreasonable control of a child/spouse/family member/friend


Again, there are more here as well, just a minimal sample.


I agree with that statement. Certainly at times we should just enjoy what we are presented with, even if it can be explained scientifically. It’s not like I am not thinking about serotonin and norepinephrine reuptake and histamine rushes when I am turned on. :)

I have a question for someone who claims to be and “understander” who enjoys all the fruits others have to offer. Is it ok to use the understanding of how people work in order to obtain pleasures for yourself? Lets say, for example, one develops a scientific methodology for separating a women from her thong (dannoxyz anyone) is it ok to do such a thing? Maxim and Cosmo certainly would say so.

Ah Tom, see, that is what you pay the big bucks for to go to college! :D I would just think it is just as okay as it is for the Older brother or father to break your bones for doing so. After all, if it feels good, do it - right?

If life is about being selfish - then sure, but don't whine when someone decides you are the target.

Yes, I am the person with all sorts of employees - and have kids your age. Pretty amusing to be called adolescent by someone who is wet behind the ears.

Yes, they take care of me, and I take care of them. I am making their life better (i.e. I pay well and they have health care, retirement, disability) what are you doing? Just giving people money is a very bad idea. Opportunities are better.

Oh, no butler - just cooks, farm managers, workers, wood workers, mechanics, etc.

So, according to your reasoning - you are delusional because you are happy?

Due to your geriatric status I will give you more respect than you deserve. You seem to have something against me so I respectfully ask that you stick to the topic at hand or just walk away from the thread. I already stated this is not about me or my motivations for the thread.

BTW adolescent behavior knows no age limit.

Why grow up when we can be toys R us kids?

I am unaware of his work, tell me more.




A Biography of Aaron T. Beck, MD:
A native of Providence, Rhode Island, Aaron T. Beck had an interest in the vagaries of human nature as far back as he can remember. However, he did not pursue this interest until later in his professional career. At Brown University, he was associate editor of the Brown Daily Herald and received a number of honors and awards, including Phi Beta Kappa, the Francis Wayland Scholarship, the Bennet Essay Award, and the Gaston Prize for Oratory. After graduating magna *** laude in 1942, he embarked on a career in medicine at Yale Medical School graduating in 1946. He served a rotating internship, followed by a residency in pathology at the Rhode Island Hospital. Although initially interested in psychiatry, he found the approaches at Medical School to be nihilistic and unrewarding and decided on a career in neurology, attracted by the high degree of precision that characterized this discipline. During his residency in neurology at the Cushing Veterans Administration Hospital in Framingham, MA, a required rotation in psychiatry intrigued him with some of the more recent developments in the field. He decided to explore further developments in psychotherapy. He spent two years as a fellow at Austin Riggs Center at Stockbridge where he acquired substantial experience in conducting long-term psychotherapy. The Korean War shifted Beck's area of work to the Valley Forge Army Hospital where he was Assistant Chief of Neuropsychiatry.

Beck joined the Department of Psychiatry of the University of Pennsylvania in 1954 and is currently University Professor Emeritus of Psychiatry. He initially conducted research into the psychoanalytic theories of depression, but when these hypotheses were disconfirmed, he developed a different theoretical-clinical approach that he labeled cognitive therapy. Since 1959 he has directed funded research investigations of the psychopathology of depression, suicide, anxiety disorders, panic disorders, alcoholism, drug abuse, and personality disorders and of cognitive therapy of these disorders. His work was supported by a 10-year M.E.R.I.T. Award from the National Institute of Mental Health and grants from the Centers for Disease Control for a study to determine the efficacy and effectiveness of a short-term cognitive therapy intervention for suicide attempters. His most recent work has focused on reducing suicide attempts among chronic suicide attempters and borderline personality disorder patients. He has also directed an international working group testing cognitive therapy of schizophrenia. He has published over 450 articles and authored or co-authored seventeen books.

Beck has been a member or consultant for several review panels of the National Institute of Mental Health, served on the editorial boards of many journals, and lectured throughout the world. He was a visiting scientist of the Medical Research Council at Oxford and is a visiting fellow of Wolfson College. He has also been a visiting Professor at Harvard, Yale, and Columbia, and is a member of The Institute of Medicine. He has received awards from numerous professional organizations and is the only person to have received research awards from both The American Psychiatric Association and The American Psychological Association. He is also the recipient of the Heinz Award for “The Human Condition” and The Sarnat Award from The Institute of Medicine. Beck has been awarded two honorary degrees, a Doctor of Medical Science from Brown University and a Doctor of Humane Letters from Assumption College. He has been listed as one of the “10 individuals who shaped the face of American Psychiatry” and one of the 5 most influential psychotherapists of all time.

Beck has been married for 55 years and has four children and eight grandchildren.

The following are Dr. Beck’s research areas of interest:



1. Psychotherapy: Dr. Beck’s groundbreaking systematic research established for the first time the efficacy of any psychotherapy for the treatment of depression. He not only developed and tested an effective short-term treatment (cognitive therapy) for depression, but he and his former students have successfully adapted cognitive therapy to a wide range of other psychiatric disorders as well.

Beck’s outcome trials with the cognitive therapy of panic disorder demonstrated a significant and lasting reduction in the number of panic attacks. His work has also stimulated numerous controlled clinical trials that have now demonstrated that cognitive therapy is effective in a variety of other psychiatric conditions, including bulimia nervosa, hypochondriasis, social phobia, obsessive-compulsive disorder, substance abuse, body dysmorphic disorder, and post-traumatic stress disorder. His former students have also established the efficacy of cognitive therapy in medical conditions including chronic fatigue syndrome, hypertension, gastrointestinal disorders, and chronic pain. There is also accumulating evidence, based on Beck’s early work, that cognitive therapy can be effective in combination with pharmacotherapy in treating the most severe psychiatric disorders such as bipolar disorder and schizophrenia. Cognitive therapy also has played an important part in the prevention of suicide, as described below.

Beck discovered that by increasing patients’ objectivity regarding their misinterpretations of situations or subjective sensations or feelings (cognitive distortions) and their negative expectancies, they experienced a substantial shift in their thinking and subsequently in their affect and behavior. This approach consists of a combination of strategies and techniques designed to modify the cognitive distortions and thus enable the patients to cope more effectively with their psychological and interpersonal problems. An important principle emanating from his work was that patients can assume an active role in normalizing their dysfunctional thinking and thus gain relief from, and subsequently remission of, their psychiatric conditions. Of particular note is the finding that the therapy is more effective than drug treatment alone in reducing relapse in depression, bipolar disorder, panic disorder and schizophrenia. This work demonstrates the capacity of psychiatrically ill patients to compensate for their biological and psychological vulnerabilities.



2. Psychopathology: Beck’s work has provided a new way of understanding psychiatric disorders. At the time that Beck began his investigations in the late 1950’s, the dominant psychological theory regarded depression as due to “introjected hostility.” In contrast to the prevailing dogma, Beck‘s studies showed that depressed patients have a systematic negative bias against themselves and in their predictions of their own future. He then demonstrated in a number of laboratory experiments that, after a successful experience, depressed patients had a positive shift in mood, increased optimism, and increased motivation. Thus, concrete feedback that disconfirmed their negative view of themselves and their expectations had an immediate ameliorative effect on their feelings and behavior.

Beck and his colleagues have subsequently elaborated the cognitive theory of generalized anxiety disorders, phobias, panic disorder, substance abuse, personality disorders, delusions and hallucinations, and negative symptoms (schizophrenia). These formulations have been supported by substantial research conducted elsewhere as well as in his own unit. Further, the theoretical framework emanating from these studies has provided the basis for treatment manuals and subsequent empirical studies of cognitive therapy of a wide range of psychiatric disorders.



3. Studies of Suicide: Beck’s early work provided a rational basis for the classification and measurement of suicidal behaviors and made it possible to identify high-risk individuals. Of particular importance has been his utilization of psychological variables to predict future suicides. His prospective study of 9,000 patients has led to the formulation of an algorithm for predicting future suicide that has been shown to have high predictive power, particularly for those at the highest indices on the algorithm.

Beck stands alone in his work on identifying the suicide-prone individuals and applying an effective psychotherapy to reduce suicidal risk. He discovered that hopelessness is the key psychological factor driving people to suicide. He and his colleagues showed that the hopelessness, and consequently suicidal ideation, can be readily quantified in depressed patients and substantially reduced by cognitive interventions.

Beck’s ongoing work with recent suicide attempters has demonstrated that a short-term cognitive intervention can significantly reduce subsequent suicide attempts when compared to a control group.



4. Development of Assessment Techniques: Beck’s fourth major contribution was the development of a strategy for assessing the severity of specific psychiatric syndromes. Up until the time of Beck’s work, psychiatric research was hampered by a dearth of techniques for operationalizing the various disorders and measuring their severity. The various instruments, including his Depression Inventory, Anxiety Inventory, Hopelessness Scale, and Suicide Intent Scale have helped to chart a new course of research in psychopathology and generated hundreds of research studies. The Beck Depression Inventory is one of the most widely used instruments in clinical practice as well as research. Other scales have helped to pinpoint the specific characteristics and mechanisms in a variety of disorders. They include: Cognitive checklist (for anxiety and depression); Cognitive checklist for mania; the Self Esteem Scales; the Panic Belief Questionnaire; the Dysfunctional Attitude Scale (with Arlene Weissman); the Substance Abuse Cognitions Scale; Marital Cognitions Scale; Sociotropy-Autonomy Scale; Beck Cognitive Insight Scale; Beck-Young Scales (with Judith Beck); and the Obsessive-Compulsive Cognitions Scale (with David A. Clark). The availability of these measures also facilitated rigorous basic research in the biology and psychology of mental disorders as well as in clinical outcome trials.



:)/:(



(appropriate smilie combo!)

To sum it up for the LOLcat crowd: He was the man who pioneered cognitive behavioural therapy based on mental schema. It was a huge digression from Fruedian psycotherapy, which involved dealing with the past.

The OP used the term "schema" and offered analysis which is oddly parallel to Beck's assertions about primary motivations not being contingent on simply childhood experience.


Of course, none of my blathering is as entertaining as the slapboxing match between crtreedude and Enthalpic (almost as good as the SoCal women in bikini's, and twice as self indulgent!)


Now we return you back to the regular scheduled fight:

Round 3!