Road Cycling - The typical cyclist

Hi there,
I wonder if cycling isn't popular in the US for the same reason cricket isn't? You know, it's the kind of sport where it's practically pointless to be a spectator and you basically have to settle into it for the duration. So you'll wait for 2 hours and then someone will spend 30 seconds consolidating an overtaking manoeuvre and that's it at least to the untrained eye. Also, there's not a lot of money in it, compared to a sport like baseball, which is so easy on the body it's a joke and half the players are fat, American football, which someone once described as "the most expensive, self-indulgent and inefficient method possible to get a small ball 100 yards" (it was me) and basketball, which I gather is all about being cool. Cycling isn't cool. It's about some of the fittest men on the planet doing something spectacular in an extremely undramatic way. There're very few "cool moves" to be had when you're going on tarmac for 150km.

Cycling demands more fitness than most sports...Not fat slobs need apply..If that is not cool , I don't know what is...Fittest of all sports...Lance Armstrong gets athlete of year award for several years now..
Compare a 140 lb. athlete decked out to show off muscular prowess, compared to a player 20 lbs. overweight spitting chewing tobacco on the play field..Cycling is the ultimate in coolness.

Cycling demands more fitness than most sports...Not fat slobs need apply..If that is not cool , I don't know what is...Fittest of all sports...Lance Armstrong gets athlete of year award for several years now..
Compare a 140 lb. athlete decked out to show off muscular prowess, compared to a player 20 lbs. overweight spitting chewing tobacco on the play field..Cycling is the ultimate in coolness.

That's why John Kruk was my favorite ball player. Once when asked as an athlete, how could he smoke, he replied, I'm not an athlete, I'm a baseball player. Cool.

Ken,

If you are really interested, I suggest you read Race and Culture - A World View, by Thomas Sowell.

It should answer any and all questions you have.

Golf, tennis, swimming ... and cycling. Is there something in common that would explain the lack of racial diversity? Socio-economic origins perhaps? Any thoughts?
no money in this sports, unlike in basketball, okay how money Tiger wood will the Golf scene have, five more, Tennis, the Williams sisters how many will be successful in making millions of dollars,

the "group ride" I usually ride with has one colored cyclist and about seven or eight asian, and the rest are caucasian in a group of 100 to 150 cyclist

Hi there,
I wonder if cycling isn't popular in the US for the same reason cricket isn't? You know, it's the kind of sport where it's practically pointless to be a spectator and you basically have to settle into it for the duration. So you'll wait for 2 hours and then someone will spend 30 seconds consolidating an overtaking manoeuvre and that's it at least to the untrained eye. Also, there's not a lot of money in it, compared to a sport like baseball, which is so easy on the body it's a joke and half the players are fat, American football, which someone once described as "the most expensive, self-indulgent and inefficient method possible to get a small ball 100 yards" (it was me) and basketball, which I gather is all about being cool. Cycling isn't cool. It's about some of the fittest men on the planet doing something spectacular in an extremely undramatic way. There're very few "cool moves" to be had when you're going on tarmac for 150km.

Finally someone that gets it. To a non-bicylclist the sport is boring, not cool, slow. There are no fancy moves, no flash. To me biking it is about show vs go. Bicycling is about go. We apreciate a nice high or even mediun end bike (I appreciate almost any bike). But to a non-biker a bike is a bike. they couldn't understand paying 1, 2, 3 + thousand dollers for a bike. Of course you don't need an expensive bike to get fit, ride hard etc.
To me bicycling is about SUBSTANCE, DISCIPLINE, WILL vs flash.
I was in a golf glub the other day getting something to eat. I looked around a saw a lot of fat unathletic pigs. Made me sick.
I think the best thing about bicycling is the solitude and the independance. You don't have to depend on anyone else to throw a ball back at you.
What does all this have to do with race? Race is irrelevent it's an individual thing. I could probably do a socio-economic-genitic-pscych- analysis on races and sports. But I'm not going to bother, I'm not a race, I'm a bicyclist.
Sometimes I do wonder why there aren't more white female crossdressing midgets playing basketball. Maybe I'm wrong, but I try not to let it bother me.

I suspect it might be cultural.. Art reflects culture? See any movies of late like "White Men can't bike,"? Many minorities are located in urban centers...
Urban centers have parks with baseball, basketball courts; but how many urban centers have many velodomes.

none of my asian friends share my affinity for cycling, kayaking, the outdoors, or even music... but then again neither do my friends of other races and ethnicities...

I was discussing cycing, the riders etc in the Tour and my wife who is Jamacian, wondered if there were any Jamacian riders because her country is fairly mountainous and not subject to seasonal prohibitions ( eg. winter ). So, I thought about it and I said I don't know, maybe I'll put this to the board.
So, I know that in the 30's ( I think, maybe sometime earlier ) there was a well known track cyclist who excelled in the madison who was black. And I know there was a black New York bike courier who went to Japan did some keirin racing for a year or two and came back with a bundle of money in the 90's. But I was wondering what are your opinions on this, why are there no blacks in the Tour & Giro teams, especially if physically blacks are very good track athletes ? Is there a reason blacks are not as good cycling ? ( I believe that for the most part, teams are looking for the best rider they can get and that racial discrimination is not a factor here. )

Why is this even an issue.

Take a look at the top marathon runners in the world... I'll give you one guess what color their skin is.

My best guess to your question would be a combination of three factors especially as it relates to Jamacians...

1. Economics.
2. Culture.
3. Opportunity.

Why is this even an issue.

I dont belive that he is trying to make an issue just wondering what may be behind this fact. I think there is a thread somewhere in the forum that talks about "races" and cycling that offers some very good points from many sides.

In fact here is a link there. http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=33235&highlight=racial there is tons of stuff.

Here is my guess - in your minefield of the day question - My guess is simply that in the social culture of most African Americans they never had much exposure to competitive cycling. Just as golf had to wait for a much larger black middle class to develop, and for civil rights to start becoming the way of the land, interests in golf would be discouraged simply because most parents won't encourage their klids to go down a path that they percive will lead their child to a frustrating dead end. Also, cycling, like hockey, golf and some shooting sports do not have cheap entry level costs.

My guess is that as America grows a more diverse middle class sports like cycling will appeal to all, regardless of race. I also think the whole genetics thing is bunk. The human race has athletes of equal ability coming from all races (what is race anyway other than a way for politicians to divide us). Once I saw that 7'8" Chinese guy play basketball I knew that the race card was all played out. Now if you are talking about intellect, courage and ours skills as lovers, it is obvious that the Midwestern Irish Americans (like me) put all you also-rans to shame. ;)

Blacks (as broad a definition of race that is but I understand the question) are not in cycling because of exposure (or lack of) and grassroots development- just like asian riders.
Major Taylor (the black track cyclist-one of america's greatest cyclists) and Nelson Vails (the NYC messenger/track sprint superstar) are the two you mentioned.

There are upand coming though- The TOUR DE FASO in Africa is gaining ground and legitimacy- just as the Tour de Langkawi has gained in stature for the Asian riders.

Blacks don't have any physical limitations compared to any other race and defining performance based on race is, well, racist. That is what Nazi Germany used to do and which Jesse Owens proved so wonderfully wrong back in the Olympics in Berlin.

Once I saw that 7'8" Chinese guy play basketball I knew that the race card was all played out.

:lol: that's awesome. I'm going to use that!

I was discussing cycing, the riders etc in the Tour and my wife who is Jamacian, wondered if there were any Jamacian riders because her country is fairly mountainous and not subject to seasonal prohibitions ( eg. winter ). So, I thought about it and I said I don't know, maybe I'll put this to the board.
So, I know that in the 30's ( I think, maybe sometime earlier ) there was a well known track cyclist who excelled in the madison who was black. And I know there was a black New York bike courier who went to Japan did some keirin racing for a year or two and came back with a bundle of money in the 90's. But I was wondering what are your opinions on this, why are there no blacks in the Tour & Giro teams, especially if physically blacks are very good track athletes ? Is there a reason blacks are not as good cycling ? ( I believe that for the most part, teams are looking for the best rider they can get and that racial discrimination is not a factor here. )


Just because they don't do it doesn't mean they can't do it. They just don't want to. There was a similar thread on some forum awhile back and the general consensus was that it must be economics or racism (or course), there couldn't possibly be some cultural reason. The black people I know just aren't interested. A bicycle is just a toy. I'm not saying this in a condesending way, I just know a lot of black people and that's what I'm told. In this country, weather you be black, white, or purple, bicycling just isn't a "real" sport. There aren't millions to be made even if you are a successful racer so why bother. Are there any jamacian backpackers, or jamacian surfers? That might be a better question.

Just accept that different cultures like different things and don't try to make something more out of it.

defining performance based on race is, well, racist. That is what Nazi Germany used to do and which Jesse Owens proved so wonderfully wrong back in the Olympics in Berlin.

Or did he prove them right, just showing them they were not the fastest race.

1. Would you agree that biology and ancestry are determing factors in physical performance?

2. Is it racist to say that no "white" man has ever run 100 meters in less than 10 seconds?
or that the 100 fastest times, and 494 of the fastest 500 times in the 100m are held by sprinters of West African descent?

3. Asians make up 55 percent of the worlds population, yet despite their traditions of discipline and the authoritarian sports school systems and doping programs in the most populous country of China, they have yet to produce any track sprinters

I actually have touched on this in my Sociology of Sport class. Depending on your genetic make-up, you will have a certain percentage of fast to slow twitch muscle fibers. This will give you either greater endurance or greater power. They test this at Olympic training sites by taking a biopsy of muscle. They find that some athletes performances are nowhere near their potential or almost maxed out. A side note- when you eat turkey, the white meat is fast twitch and the dark is slow. It has to do with the red blood cells in the slow. Additionally, there is a statistic that I do not have right now. It is that something like all sub 10 sec 100 meter sprinters have origins in the same area of Africa and the percentages of elite marathoners coming from Kenya and similar areas is unreal. This can be both genetics and the society. Running is a way of life there and their way out.

However, a huge factor is socio-economic. Some sports have severe barriers to entry in prohibitive start-up costs. Golf would be about 100 dollars even for the cheapest used set of clubs, not to mention at least 20 dollars a round. A basketball can be had for 15-20 dollars and that is it. Cycling is really at least 500 for a lower end bike. Basketball is also seen as an opportunity for black athletes. It is getting to the point where the white athlete does not see much future in basketball. He sees all the black players and is not inspired. The black athlete sees all the white cyclists and is not inspired. Tiger changed things in the world of golf, but it still is not for the poor. Running will always be one of the cheapest sports and therefore can be excelled in by all. Cycling will never be cheap and open to all.

Please note that I'm not saying that all whites have money and that blacks are poor, but only looking at the race percentages in the U.S. that fall into the middle and upper classes.

smoothie, i should have read your post first, you had the stats

If you want some data, a while ago I had to do an assignment on the physiological differences of various populations, and I mostly referenced an article written by a guy called Jose Antonio. I think he wrote a book on the topic. He mainly discusses the differences between white athletes, black athletes of West African descent, and black athletes of East African descent.

If any baits me, I'll dig up the article.

I've read somewhere that, while the dominance of blacks athletes of West African descent can be attributed to phyiological differences, there has been no evidence to support the theory that the dominance of East African athletes in endurance events is due to any phyiological superiority -- it's apparently cultural.

pulled from the web...

"The Kalenjins of the Great Rift Valley adjacent to Lake Victoria - who represent 1/2000th of the world population - win 40 per cent of top international distance-running honors and three times as many Olympic and World Championship distance medals as athletes from any other nation. One tiny district, the Nandi, with only 500,000 people, has spawned runners who have won an unfathomable 20 per cent of major international distance events. By almost any measure, the Nandi region, which produced Wilson Kipketer, and Kip Keino, among others, is the greatest concentration of raw athletic talent in the history of sports."

And if the following has any Merit, I think Kenyans would make great cyclists...

COMPARING KENYANS AND SCANDINAVIANS

Noakes's colleague, Bengt Saltin, head of the Muscle Research Institute in Denmark, has come to the conclusion that certain population groups, including Northern Europeans, who are notable endurance runners and cross-country skiers, may have superior fatigue resistance encoded in their genes. He has found that Scandinavian distance runners, Kenyans, and South African blacks all have consistently lower blood-lactate levels and perform more efficiently than athletes from other regions, the likely result of their having evolved in mountainous regions. Population genetics - ancestry - is the key determinant.

Saltin brought a half-dozen established Swedish national class runners to St. Patrick's High in Iten, Kenya, in 1990 to see how they might match up against up-and-coming East African schoolboys. It was a demoralizing experience for the Swedes. National champion after national champion was soundly trounced in races from 800 meters to 10 kilometers. Stunned, Saltin estimated that in this one tiny area of the Rift Valley there were at least five hundred school boys who could best his national champions at 2,000 meters.

In a subsequent study Saltin brought several groups of Kenyans to the Karolinska labs in Sweden, where he was then working. Muscle-fiber distribution was similar for the Kenyans and Swedes. But biopsies of the quadricep muscles in the thighs indicated that the Kenyans had more blood-carrying capillaries surrounding the muscle fibers and more mitochondria within the fibers. That's important because mitochondria act a little like power stations, processing the glucose with oxygen brought in by breathing into energy. The Kenyans also were found to have relatively smaller muscle fibers than the Swedes, which Saltin speculated might serve to bring the mitochondria closer to the surrounding capillaries. This process aids in oxidation, bringing more "fuel" to the mitochondria, the engine of the muscles. The Kenyans also showed little ammonia accumulation in their muscles from protein combustion, and less lactic-acid buildup. They have more of the muscle enzymes that burn fat, and their glycogen reserves are not burned as quickly, which improves endurance. Most impressively, they are able to take months off from regular training and then regain their old form quickly. When they do train, more than half of their total mileage occurs at heart rates of 90 percent of maximum, far higher than the rate for Europeans or Americans. In general, Saltin reported a 5 to 15 percent greater running economy at far less mileage, but at a higher intensity. Saltin has privately suggested that Kenyans appear to be innately efficient, durable, and fast - with the most perfect aerobic potential measured so far on earth.

http://www.play-the-game.org/magazine/pdf-02/33-450kms.pdf

im just repeating stuff here
i think they could make exceptional cyclists.. but there is no proliferation of cycling in the black community due to culture [lack of exposure]. for that case i dont see many recreational asian/hispanic bikers, either. obviously there are physiological differences among races as has been brought up... anybody heard of Bergman's and Allen's rule?

anyways too many people are too PC and touchy about this subject. its just a harmless question. jeez :D

I recall it from a paramedic/St.John's instructor during a course I was taking (20 years ago). I believe he was commenting on the number of blacks competing for swimming medals in the olympics, and the reason why there were so few. It was not part of a racist diatribe, but an attempt to explain an observable fact. I merely transposed the swimming with cycling as a similar explaination of racial underrepresentation for an aerobic activity- but when my wife pointed out blacks tend to do very well on the track, both short and long-distance running, I felt that that explaination for underrepresentation in the pro-cycling community needed further investigation.

First thank-you all for your informative answers and the links. I am also glad to see that no one was condoning anti-black rascism here, even among those that misconstrued the reason for my question here.Thank you especially to Racer-X for providing Major Taylor and Nelson Vails names- I always held Nelson's achievement in high regard.
I have to say (no pun intended) that I don't buy the economic explanation as to why blacks are under-represented in pro-cycling. That is saying most blacks are very poor and cannot afford bikes.
I believe that in Jamaca for example, enough people can afford a good bike to train and race on; but, because of the crime there it would not be wise to go riding through too many towns on a flashy-new road bike- so that might be a preventative issue there, but not so in the US or Canada.
The sociological explanation- eg. it is a toy, not really a part of the culture; I think has good merit. In my experience as a courier there were only 2 blacks of about 150 or so, one was there on doctors advice to be more active and the other fellow, a fairly good biker, who I recall said that they (blacks) weren't really into it (cycling) when I asked him about it. Still, is that really a universal explanation or is there more to it ?

Again, thank you for your considered imput.

im just repeating stuff here
i think they could make exceptional cyclists.. but there is no proliferation of cycling in the black community due to culture [lack of exposure]. for that case i dont see many recreational asian/hispanic bikers, either. obviously there are physiological differences among races as has been brought up... anybody heard of Bergman's and Allen's rule?

anyways too many people are too PC and touchy about this subject. its just a harmless question. jeez :D

Sorry, I have never heard of that (Bergman's and Allen's rule ) , would you please enlighten me ?

We went on vacation in Tanzania and Kenya. Part of the photo safari included a hot airballoon ride over the Masai Mara. All the time we were airborn, I saw a Masai (in bright red robe) riding an old cruiser bike through fields. He was keeping right up with the balloon. His intention was to set up a shop to sell us souveniers. Several Masai came to sell us things but I made sure to purchase from the bicyclist.
I think if he had a high end bike and decent roads that he would be a competitor.
I also think that a carbon fiber bike with skinny tires and low count spokes would not last long in that environment.

I think its just hard to find bicycles in kenya, most of them run without shoes, I doubt you will find many bikes attached to their feet.
If your wife is Jamacian she should know how many or few the cycle population is there, whats up with that?

I think the word black touched a lot of people off I mean such a scary word black, no problem using white(which is better than caucasion as most whites don't come from anywhere near the caucasin mountains).
I find that people from out side the U.S. are a lot less PC. My aunt is from Antigua and doesn't bat an eye when it comes to stating somones look or race, I've worked with dudes from Kenya, France, and Norway and had an exchange teacher from Australia, all of them much less PC than most americans.

Black black black white white black white black ...oriental. Ooohhhh he's done it now.
(oriental as in from the orient, asian means anything from Japan and Siberia to Saudi Arabia- not to specific)

Maybe it's the diversity but in new york city, I'm guessing I see 50% white, 25% black, 15% asian, and 10% everyone else cycling.

Around here where a lot of people wear these huge shorts and t-shirts, it's kind of hard for them to accept a sport where, especially among teenagers and younger adults, stardard equipment is a $800+ road bike plus a skin tight suit.

I think its just hard to find bicycles in kenya, most of them run without shoes, I doubt you will find many bikes attached to their feet.
If your wife is Jamacian she should know how many or few the cycle population is there, whats up with that?

I think the word black touched a lot of people off I mean such a scary word black, no problem using white(which is better than caucasion as most whites don't come from anywhere near the caucasin mountains).
I find that people from out side the U.S. are a lot less PC. My aunt is from Antigua and doesn't bat an eye when it comes to stating somones look or race, I've worked with dudes from Kenya, France, and Norway and had an exchange teacher from Australia, all of them much less PC than most americans.

Black black black white white black white black ...oriental. Ooohhhh he's done it now.
My wife left Jamaca for Canada when she was 8 yrs old; last time she was back she was 17 ( 20 years ago ).

How many bikes were there 20 years ago?

I was just wondering why there are no black riders on the Tour? Considering that, for example, a large proportion of our decent athletes in England are black I would have thought that cycling would have been represented too.

I was just wondering why there are no black riders on the Tour?

Oh boy.... Why are there so few white guys in the NBA? Why are there so few black guys in the NHL? Why are there so few Black guys in the PGA? Why are there so many Latin Americans in baseball?

Who the heck knows?

Oh boy.... Why are there so few white guys in the NBA? Why are there so few black guys in the NHL? Why are there so few Black guys in the PGA? Why are there so many Latin Americans in baseball?

Who the heck knows?

Well OK, you are referring to American sport; in the UK there is a fair balance of black and white athletes in all disciplines. I just had a feeling that this post wasn't going to get any serious answers.

There's the debate for the ages....

Hmmmm.....where to start? How about......

They don't have as many opportunities to get exposed to it as white guys.

That's as stupid a place to start as any.

55/Rad

I was just wondering why there are no black riders on the Tour? Considering that, for example, a large proportion of our decent athletes in England are black I would have thought that cycling would have been represented too.

Representation? Color is not an issue here. You either can ride fast or not. Gads... Color discrimination is OUT. Maybe next year.

There was a very well done thread on this topic just a couple of weeks ago. Sorry I dont have time to track it down atm.

Well OK, you are referring to American sport; in the UK there is a fair balance of black and white athletes in all disciplines. I just had a feeling that this post wasn't going to get any serious answers.

I wasn't being sarcastic, I was just pointing out that I don't think anyone knows: We could all make a list of theories:

Genetics
Economics
Cultural opportunity
Social
Geographical
Etc.

I don't know and I can't imagine anyone else does either.

DVD, I'm sorry I wasn't trying to be rude, but when I posted this I was hovering over the submit button for a while thinking that people would think I was being racist or something ridiculous, and I think I'm sitting here panicking and feeling a bit touchy!
It was a genuine question, and I really think the answer probably lies with several issues as you mentioned.

I honestly don't think you will get any real answers because no matter what anyone says someone is going to say the reply is going to be racist. I have my opinions and I do not intend them to be racist but I don't know how to write them without them sounding racist.

Does that make sense???

DVD, I'm sorry I wasn't trying to be rude, but when I posted this I was hovering over the submit button for a while thinking that people would think I was being racist or something ridiculous, and I think I'm sitting here panicking and feeling a bit touchy!
It was a genuine question, and I really think the answer probably lies with several issues as you mentioned.

Yeah, I agree with you. This is one of those issues that for whatever reason has difficuly being addressed with a spirit of good faith and reason. If we were sitting around at your house having a beer we could probably have a great time hashing this out... Unfortunately that's not the case, so we'll leave as part of the "great unknown".
:)

Why don't more Eskimo's play volleyball?

Its all cultural for the most part. Live and let live!!!!!!!

Yeah, I agree with you. This is one of those issues that for whatever reason has difficuly being addressed with a spirit of good faith and reason. If we were sitting around at your house having a beer we could probably have a great time hashing this out... Unfortunately that's not the case, so we'll leave as part of the "great unknown".
:)

Man, I couldn't agree more. There is nothing like having a couple of beers and arguing with friends :beer: . As long as everyone knows that it is just an argument. I have debated a lot of serious stuff and a lot of stupid stuff over a couple of beers. I too have my opinions...

Man, I couldn't agree more. There is nothing like having a couple of beers and arguing with friends :beer: . As long as everyone knows that it is just an argument. I have debated a lot of serious stuff and a lot of stupid stuff over a couple of beers. I too have my opinions...

Well guys, if you are ever in Cork Ireland where I'm living at the moment, the first round is on me. :)

Well guys, if you are ever in Cork Ireland where I'm living at the moment, the first round is on me. :)

Oh be careful. I might be there in a year or two. Definately keep that in mind, :p .

http://www.tflinks.com/articles/a011_020/a00013_1.shtml

http://www.tflinks.com/articles/a011_020/a00013_1.shtml


Looks like a very interesting article. Gonna read it over lunch

Well guys, if you are ever in Cork Ireland where I'm living at the moment, the first round is on me. :)

Yeah, you gotta be careful. Farbeit from me to allow an ocean to get in the way of a free beer. :D