Living Car Free - Affordable electrics just around the corner

I would contend that the concept of public transportation is flawed. It assumes everyone will want to go everywhere together, and that everyone goes to the same place. Tell the farmer who lives 50 miles out of town that he has to wait for a bus, and he'll tell you then you can wait until next season for your food.

It's as I said......"They also spoil & bankrupt the population that uses them in great numbers"

Not many farmers live 50 miles from a community and those that do work in concert with
neighbors to move goods to market.

That's right now, 10-15 years from now will be a different story. Do you think Toyota will be spending money on 15 year old cars? NO WAY!
Also in 10-15 years most of the hybrids will be IN the junkyard, right now the battery packs are valuable for crash replacements, like most parts on newer cars.They are worthwhile, at least from Toyota's perspective, because of the raw materials used in the battery. I really doubt Nickel, or any of the other precious metal, will go down in price in the coming years. What you're saying is tantamount to stating catalytic converters would fill up landfills w/ Platinum ($1200/troy oz), Rhodium ($6100/troy oz), or any of the other rare and precious metals in them. Toyota's not gonna buy the pack from us for $200 and stick it back into another Prius, they'll go sell it to their battery manufacturer as a core.


How is it cheaper? I have a bike, it works, if I wanted an ebike, I'd have to buy it, and charge it. I don't see it being cheaper.
Maybe faster under certain circumstances, but can you over- run the motor, i.e. go faster than 25 downhill?
Lets say we have a hard tail mtb and bike ~15 miles/day, 6 days/week, at a 15mph average. A decent ride just for health benefits would be ~5 miles/day, so we'll compare the cost of the battery/motor/electricity versus the cost of food for those other ~10 miles/day. The absolutely cheapest we can get food is for ~$1/1000Cal, or ~$1/1100Wh. Electricity on the other hand runs ~$.1/1000Wh give or take. So the real question is, does the battery cost per mile equal the food cost per mile, assuming we eat nothing but Potatoes. ;) Retrofitting a bike for the motor/battery would be the easiest/cheapest option. Nab a 250W motor offa Ehay for $30, a controller for another $25, a couple deep cycle lead acid batteries for $250, a hub that's fixed on the motor side with a sprocket/freewheel on the other side for $50?, and all the wiring/connectors/milk crate/nuts&bolts/rear rack for another $10-75. The motor, controller, and hub will last as long as the bike if treated properly, so the consumables are the batteries and electricity.

Lets say we choose a 50lb 12V deep cycle battery like the 24tmx. It supposedly will do (http://www.repp.org/discussion/ev/199905/msg00561.html) 275 cycles to 80% DOD, and w/ two batteries you will have ~560 minutes using 4A(25V)=~120W (http://www.trojan-battery.com/Products/ProductSpec.aspx?Name=24TMX) cruising at 15mph. We'll go for ~9.3bar hours per 80% discharge at ~15mph, or ~140 miles per 80% discharge. W/ 275 cycles, that's a little under 40,000 miles until we need to replace them. At $200 for them, that's about .6 cents per mile in battery costs. There's also electricity, which is ~10 cents/kWh, or 15 cents/kWh by the time we charge the batteries and discharge them powering the motor. 1kWh is 1000Wh, and will take us ~125 miles@15mph, at a cost of a little more than a tenth of a cent per mile. So a battery powered bike would cost ~.7 cents/mile.

Lets go back to our food. A 10lb sack of potatoes for $3 results in food being ~$1/1100Wh. Humans aren't terribly efficient, so we only get use out of a Cal for every three we burn. So, in terms of powering our bicycle, we spend ~$1/363Wh. These 363Wh will take us ~45 miles, at a cost of ~2.2 cents/mile. Food is really expensive per Wh, and humans aren't nearly as efficient as electric motors. I don't know about you, but I eat more than just potatoes, and I'm probably closer to $3/1000Cal. There's also j-yard batteries, which can be had ime for $20 each w/ a three month warranty. Food is just too expensive, and electricity too cheap, for a DIY electric bicycle to be as or more expensive than food. Now, if you're biking just to exercise, that's fine, no sweat. But in terms of transportation and cost per mile, nothing beats a DIY electric bike built by someone w/ half a brain, except by an electric velo built by someone w/ half a brain. ;) I should also add that we would be wise to calculate how much we need to change our gearing in order to account for the extra hundred plus pounds. We'll only need ~15% more energy overall to compensate for it, but it'll increase the speeds we go downhill, and drop the speeds we go uphill, considerably. Not that it's a problem, just that it's something to be aware of and compensate for.

Not many farmers live 50 miles from a community and those that do work in concert with
neighbors to move goods to market.

I'm talking about going out to do anything, not just sell their goods. You public transportation only system would condemn them to live only on their farm. The food products will get to market, the leechs in the cities will make sure of that, but what if they want to get out and travel on their own?
Believe it or not there are ALOT of people who live to far to walk, or reasonably bike away from town. And there should isn't going to be a bus coming out there to get them.

Believe it or not there are ALOT of people who live to far to walk, or reasonably bike away from town. And there should isn't going to be a bus coming out there to get them.


Why is that? Was it always that way? Where do these people need to go? How did they get there? What did we do before the private auto and the development patterns that it brought with it?

Why is that? Was it always that way? Where do these people need to go? How did they get there? What did we do before the private auto and the development patterns that it brought with it?Horses.

Why is that? Was it always that way? Where do these people need to go? How did they get there? What did we do before the private auto and the development patterns that it brought with it?

Stayed down on the farm and only made a few trips a year into town....strange concept in today's hurry up and go world. But I quite often spend my entire vacation at my place and never set foot off the property:p

Aaron:)

Is that a fully loaded cargo bike? Or how about on the days when you have to commute but are feeling under the weather or have a physical disability that keeps you from riding long distances at high speeds? The e-bike, just like the regular bike, is not the total answer but it is part of the solution. I could see where the e-bike could actually extend someone's commuting range (in fact a I know of a couple people that have done just that) and keep them out of a car and from polluting. We can split hairs all day long, but at the end of the day every less ICE vehicle on the road is a plus in my book.

Aaron:)

Exactly! I live with an chronic fatigue illness and it's owning an e.bike that keeps me in the saddle on those days when I'm not so well. I have it set up so that the electric hub motor assists my pedalling rather than taking over completely which enables me to still enjoy a level of exercise and activity which is important to my ability to maintain wellness. Back in the 1980s I could hit 40 mph on my old roadie 12 speed too, but let's face it we all get older and not everyone who wants to ride a bicycle for transport is a superb athlete.

Annie.

I'm talking about going out to do anything, not just sell their goods. You public transportation only system would condemn them to live only on their farm. The food products will get to market, the leechs in the cities will make sure of that, but what if they want to get out and travel on their own?
Believe it or not there are ALOT of people who live to far to walk, or reasonably bike away from town. And there should isn't going to be a bus coming out there to get them.

Then how is it that the rest of the world does fine with mass transit or having to walk long
distances? Farmers and all?

There will never be a need for busses, trolley or any other short haul transport until the spolied
get outta their cars be they farmers or urban dwellers.

Then how is it that the rest of the world does fine with mass transit or having to walk long
distances? Farmers and all?I think it's stretching things to say they are "doing fine."

There will never be a need for busses, trolley or any other short haul transport until the spolied
get outta their cars be they farmers or urban dwellers.You're welcome to live that lifestyle. Most won't. Look no further than China...

EDIT: Well, in the city it makes sense to have public transit. In the country, it makes no sense. A viable transportation system would have a range of options. A sustainable transportation system would prioritize the most sustainable of those options.

EV1 owners were begging GM to sell the cars to them when the leases ran out. GM refused, and the cars were crushed. More than a bit disingenuous of GM to say there was no demand. Even if there was no demand to continue making new EV1's-- and that argument is dubious at best-- there was enormous demand to keep the existing EV1s in the hands of the leaseholders.

Continuing to maintain the parts chain for, what amounted to, a very small number of cars would, probably, have cost more than the sales of the cars would have been worth. The one part I can not forget (well, other than how astounded the reviewers were that an electric car would need a radiator) was the tyres. The tyres were a special run item. They were a narrow tyre with very low rolling resistance (probably just flat scary in the rain) and were still able to handle the weight of the EV1.

If you (a manufacturer) sell a car, for a limited period of time, you must supply parts. Just considering the tyres alone, i can understand GMs position.

You're welcome to live that lifestyle. Most won't. Look no further than China...


Bad example. China is making a strong effort to get people into petrol powered, personal, vehicles just as fast as it can.

Not many farmers live 50 miles from a community and those that do work in concert with
neighbors to move goods to market.

First, define a community, is it 20 people and a post office, or a place where people can work, shop, and engage in activities with like minded people? As far as working in concert to move goods, living in farm country and having a small ranch in the states, I can not say as I have seen it done; further, I really can not see how it would work. The trouble with this idea is that peak demand happens all at once and for everyone in the same community (we are talking farms and ranches, not small vegetable gardens, right?).

Horses.

Simply not a viable alternative in todays litigious society. As a society we are not willing to accept the risk of large animals on the streets in large numbers. I do ride my horse in town but do so rarely.

And yes, I do realize that cars are dangerous. Further, I believe that if we tried to introduce them today, with an understanding of the risks, that they would be restricted to off road and closed course use only (but so would bicycles).

Why is that? Was it always that way? Where do these people need to go? How did they get there?

"Need," is a disgusting word when applied to people. We really do not need to do much at all. People really do not need to do much at all, probably go to work, eat, sleep, and go back to work; heck, we can skip the go to work part and sleep on the floors of the factories.

"These people," is another offensive term. It implies that the people being discussed are some mindless mass instead of individuals with goals, interests, and desires. Certainly we must plan for may people, but we must never think of them as less than ourselves.

As far as how rurals became rurals, it varies. Some have inherited land, some came to get away from the cities, some are the children of those who came to escape the cities and can not afford to leave. Many are holding on from when the towns they are in had a strong economy and, again, can not afford to go elsewhere.

So, really discounting farm owners whose farms provide all necessary income, and there are not many of them, even in farm country. Most people seem to be Government employees, people who came to escape the cities, and people who can not afford to leave.

I base many of my observations on rural areas on the communities of Siskiyou and Modoc Counties in California, where I have lived, off and on, for over twenty years.

Continuing to maintain the parts chain for, what amounted to, a very small number of cars would, probably, have cost more than the sales of the cars would have been worth. The one part I can not forget (well, other than how astounded the reviewers were that an electric car would need a radiator) was the tyres. The tyres were a special run item. They were a narrow tyre with very low rolling resistance (probably just flat scary in the rain) and were still able to handle the weight of the EV1.

If you (a manufacturer) sell a car, for a limited period of time, you must supply parts. Just considering the tyres alone, i can understand GMs position.

That may be part of the equation, but after having dealt with GM and their lack of factory repair parts availability for cars only 5 years old...I question if they even would have attempted to keep parts available.

Aaron:)

Bad example. China is making a strong effort to get people into petrol powered, personal, vehicles just as fast as it can.That was my point.

Unless you're saying the Chinese people are choosing petrol powered vehicles because of government policy. But my understanding is that people are choosing that willingly, even if that also reflects government policy.

Simply not a viable alternative in todays litigious society. As a society we are not willing to accept the risk of large animals on the streets in large numbers. I do ride my horse in town but do so rarely.Again, that was (sort of) my point.

Although horses are also impractical because they require feeding and care. The fact that bicycles don't require those things was one of the factors in it being adopted so enthusiastically in the 19th century.

But when we scratch our heads and wonder "what did people do before the automobile," the answer is "horses."

"Need," is a disgusting word when applied to people. We really do not need to do much at all. People really do not need to do much at all, probably go to work, eat, sleep, and go back to work; heck, we can skip the go to work part and sleep on the floors of the factories.

"These people," is another offensive term. It implies that the people being discussed are some mindless mass instead of individuals with goals, interests, and desires. Certainly we must plan for may people, but we must never think of them as less than ourselves.

As far as how rurals became rurals, it varies. Some have inherited land, some came to get away from the cities, some are the children of those who came to escape the cities and can not afford to leave. Many are holding on from when the towns they are in had a strong economy and, again, can not afford to go elsewhere.

So, really discounting farm owners whose farms provide all necessary income, and there are not many of them, even in farm country. Most people seem to be Government employees, people who came to escape the cities, and people who can not afford to leave.

I base many of my observations on rural areas on the communities of Siskiyou and Modoc Counties in California, where I have lived, off and on, for over twenty years.


Hey Ho there RobertC. My questions were a bit rhetorical based on a previous posters comments. And the point of my post was to show that needs are truly small... and that if we are living far away from everywhere else we've probably chosen to live there, and should plan accordingly. No need for a 50 mile drive for an ice cream cone and all. Do we need to move ourselves 50 miles each way to get to work? Well, we may need to in order to satisfy our wants. (or at least the wants we think we want after being constantly bombarded with images of bigger, faster, stronger, new-erness, better, whiz bang why aren't you shaving with a Mach 5).

And, I'm not thinking of anyone in any terms as less than myself. We're all in this predicament, whether we are in the city or the burbs. We move around alot. That was the jist of my post. How did they (we) get here? How did we let a form of transportation come to dominate our very existence? That's my point.

You skipped the "why is that?" part of my post. Would we design the world to look and feel and work like the world we live in? How far along do our choices put us?


You kind of replied to me and another poster as if we are 4 year olds... not sure if you intended it or not...

To those who do not see how life can go on without modern
ways of living then one is a poor student of history of the
time before oil and the industrial revolution.

One only has to look at the Amish & todays Cuba to see what
is not only possible but very doable. The Amish still use animal
or manual labor to live with while today's Cubans adapted to a life
style that doesn't center on artifical energy sources and doesn't
include the luxury of personal vehicles other than the bicycle.

At the end of the day the Cuban Embargo of 40 years ago has
turned out to be huge favor to allow Cuba to prepare for a world
that doesn't thrive on fossil fuels. If the rest of the world were
smart they would study how Cuba mangages and copy what
they've done. We'll all have to someday........

There really is life without oil!!

To those who do not see how life can go on without modern
ways of living then one is a poor student of history of the
time before oil and the industrial revolution.

One only has to look at the Amish & todays Cuba to see what
is not only possible but very doable. The Amish still use animal
or manual labor to live with while today's Cubans adapted to a life
style that doesn't center on artifical energy sources and doesn't
include the luxury of personal vehicles other than the bicycle.

At the end of the day the Cuban Embargo of 40 years ago has
turned out to be huge favor to allow Cuba to prepare for a world
that doesn't thrive on fossil fuels. If the rest of the world were
smart they would study how Cuba mangages and copy what
they've done. We'll all have to someday........

There really is life without oil!!

Yes yes yes! http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/6149/bicycleto9.gif

Because I'm an older woman and reasonably friendly looking - and because I always ride interesting old bicycles :) - elderly townsfolk often engage me in conversation about how they had used a bicycle for years for transport when they were younger. Some of the gentlemen have told me charming stories of how they would ride 30 miles each way over country roads on their bicycle to visit their Beloved. Elderly ladies tell me how they rode their faithful Raleigh (& etc) about town for years and it was only due to the large trucks that are now rumbling down the mainstreet on a regular basis that they stopped riding because they felt too nervous to continue. I often get asked where I purchased my tricycle and get many Oos and Ahs when I tell them I built it up myself.

My recently retired Raleigh based tricycle (replaced by my Mk II Hercules version).
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/152/raleightrikext1.jpghttp://img237.imageshack.us/img237/1561/newbasketxm5.jpg

Yes yes yes! http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/6149/bicycleto9.gif

Because I'm an older woman and reasonably friendly looking - and because I always ride interesting old bicycles :) - elderly townsfolk often engage me in conversation about how they had used a bicycle for years for transport when they were younger. Some of the gentlemen have told me charming stories of how they would ride 30 miles each way over country roads on their bicycle to visit their Beloved. Elderly ladies tell me how they rode their faithful Raleigh (& etc) about town for years and it was only due to the large trucks that are now rumbling down the mainstreet on a regular basis that they stopped riding because they felt too nervous to continue. I often get asked where I purchased my tricycle and get many Oos and Ahs when I tell them I built it up myself.


It's good that someone else understands the value of community as you do. ;);)