Perhaps not "car free," but affordable electrics just around the corner... (http://money.cnn.com/2007/08/13/autos/electric_car/index.htm?cnn=yes)
An electric car for the common man
One company is hoping to bring a $30,000, 80-mph battery-powered sedan to the market by 2009.
By Steve Hargreaves, CNNMoney.com staff writer
August 13 2007: 4:43 PM EDT
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- If all goes according to plan, by 2009 you could be sticking it to Big Oil by driving an all electric, Chinese-made sedan for little more than the cost of a Camry.
Electric cars are nothing new. But until now they've either been very expensive to produce or, if not that, then small and relatively slow - little more than glorified golf carts.
Miles Rubin, with his $30,000 Miles XS 500, is hoping to change all that.
According to Rubin, Founder of Miles Automotive Group, the XS 500 has a top speed of 80 miles per hour and a range of 120 miles at 60 miles per hour.That's about as fast as GM's late-90s era electric car, the EV 1. And the XS 500 will be a lot cheaper to produce, the company says.
Both the low cost and the high range can be attributed to China, where low labor costs keep the price down and state-sponsored research into battery technologyyielded what Rubin said was an advanced lithium ion power pack produced by Lishen Battery.
Plug the car into a normal wall socket and, according to company literature, six hours later you've got a full charge.
While this sounds like the perfect vehicle, serious challenges remain.
The first, of course, will be bringing the car to market. Rubin said he'll have 6 prototypes of the XS 500 by the fall, but they still need tinkering to get safety approval from U.S. regulators, plus do additional battery testing.
Then there's the competition. Phoenix Motors has a four-door utility truck with similar performance capabilities that it's planning on selling to the public around the same time. And Tesla Motors, makers of the $100,000 all-electric Tesla Roadster which is expected to enter limited production by the end of the year, has plans to enter the sedan market next. (An e-mail to the company seeking comment was not returned. For more on Tesla's sedan plans, as well the recent departure of that company's CEO read the Green Wombat blog.)
The big automakers are also getting in on the electric game with their plug-in hybrids - vehicles that use an electric motor all the time but can recharge with both a plug and a conventional gasoline engine, giving them far greater range.
General Motors, the only big automaker to announce anything like a target date, said Thursday mass production of its Volt plug-in should begin by 2010.
Selling the car is another obvious challenge. Ford, GM, Toyota and Honda all had electric vehicles back in the late 1990s. They were sold in California at a time when state regulations basically required car makers to do so. All of them halted production after those regulations were changed.
"But the world has changed," said Rubin. "We need to get off our reliance on oil and we need to alter our carbon footprint."
Rubin has previously worked as a corporate lawyer and, later, headed several companies, including a company that sold metal forms to Detroit automakers. He most recently headed Polo/Ralph Lauren Jeans.
Even if U.S. consumers flock to electric cars out of environmental concern, Rubin may still have to convince them to put their bodies inside a Chinese vehicle, especially in light of all the news lately of recalled Chinese goods.
To ensure quality, he says there are inspectors in both Chinese factories that will produce the car. He also touts the car's safety features including as reinforced doors and both front and side airbags.
"The cars will speak for themselves. You can PR it to death, but if it doesn't perform well, it's dead on arrival," he said.
Rubin will also have to answer skeptics who wonder how an electric vehicle is actually better for the environment, given that the electricity to run the car is produced largely from coal and the nation's electric grid is strained as is.
Rubin retorts that the electric grid is plenty capable of handling demand from electric vehicles, provided people recharge them at night.
On the environmental question, he says just because electricity now is mostly made from coal and natural gas, renewables like solar or wind or carbon-free nuclear power could play a larger part of meeting the nation's electricity demand.
Environmentalists also support the development of electric cars, noting that it's much more efficient to create electricity than it is to power a vehicle with a combustion engine. Top of page
Blue Order
08-13-07, 06:31 PM
And speaking of electrics... (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/05/automobiles/05BAKER.html?ex=1187150400&en=07815733670101ea&ei=5070)
August 5, 2007
Back to the Future in a 98-Year-Old Electric Car
By DEXTER FORD
THE new hybrid Ford Escape taxis scuttling around New York City give their occupants an aura of environmental superiority. But as far as clean electric-powered cars are concerned, these high-mileage hybrids are actually a bit behind the times.
About 100 years behind.
Starting in 1914, the Detroit Taxicab and Transfer Company built and operated a fleet of nearly 100 electric cabs. Customers would often wait for a smoother, cleaner, more tasteful electric cab, even when a gas-powered cab was already on station.
At the turn of the 20th century, quiet, smooth, pollution-free electric cars were a common sight on the streets of major American cities. Women especially favored them over steam- and gasoline-powered cars.
In an era in which gasoline-powered automobiles were noisy, smelly, greasy and problematic to start, electric cars, like Jay Leno’s restored 1909 Baker Electric Coupe, represented a form of women’s liberation. Well-dressed society women could simply drive to lunch, to shop, or to visit friends without fear of soiling their gloves, mussing their hair or setting their highly combustible crinoline dresses on fire.
“These were women’s shopping cars,” said Mr. Leno, who is a serious hands-on collector of autos and motorcycles dating from the 1800s to the present. “There was no gas or oil, no fire, no explosions — you just sort of got in and you went. There were thousands of these in New York, from about 1905 to 1915. There were charging stations all over town, so ladies could recharge their cars while they were in the stores.”
Baker Electrics, Detroit Electrics, Rausch & Langs and other similar electric cars were comparatively reliable and easy to drive. Even the wives of legendary car company owners drove electrics.
Clara Ford, Henry’s wife, drove a 1914 Detroit Electric Brougham until the 1930s, using it to visit friends and make her rounds on the family’s Michigan estate. Helen Joy, wife of Henry Joy, president of the Packard Motor Car Company, drove a 1915 Detroit Electric.
Mr. Leno’s Baker stands — and stands is the correct word — more than 7 feet tall. “It looks like a giant phone booth,” he said. Twelve 6-volt batteries are under the front and rear covers, six under each, to power the car’s 72-volt motor.
This particular Baker was originally equipped with Edison alkaline batteries. Baker customers had the option of these or more common lead-acid batteries.
The Edison batteries were the result of a research program the inventor conducted at the turn of the century to create lighter, more powerful batteries that would extend the range and speed of electric cars, just as inventors are trying to do today.
Instead of the lead plates and sulfuric acid used in batteries from the mid-19th century on, the Edison batteries used iron and nickelic oxide electrodes, and an alkaline electrolyte of potassium hydroxide. Early tests were promising, but the first production batteries were prone to leaking and electrode failure. Edison closed the factory in 1905 and reworked the batteries, finally resuming production four years later. The effort was obviously effective.
“I have modern lead-acid batteries in the car now, but I can still run the original Edison batteries,” Mr. Leno said. “You can just rinse them out, replace the electrolyte, and they’re ready to go. They still work fine, after almost a hundred years.”
The car’s electric motor, about the size of a watermelon, is visible under the car, driving the rear wheels via an enclosed-chain reduction system and a now-conventional driveshaft and differential.
“Since we restored it, I haven’t had to do much of anything to maintain it,” Mr. Leno said. “We just keep it charged up, grease it now and then, and drive it.
“I drive it from the garage up into the Hollywood Hills every year to see the Christmas lights,” he said. “The deer come right up to it and look inside. Because there’s no noise, no vibration, no gasoline smell, they’re completely unafraid.
“It’ll go for about four or five hours on a single charge, at about 20 to 25 miles an hour. Its range is about 110 miles, just about what most electric cars made these days will do. So we really haven’t come very far in a hundred years.
“It’s pretty fun to drive, actually — if you’re not in a hurry, that is,” he said. “Women love it.”
One does not so much enter the Baker as climb it. Once inside, it’s apparent that the designers were less intent on building a vehicle than they were in creating an ornate mobile parlor. Every surface is covered in expensive fabric or carpet, and the doors have braided cords, tassels and embroidered straps. Plump button-tucked bench seats, front and rear, face each other, as they would in the booth of a Victorian tea room. The driver sits on the left of the rear bench. If there are passengers in the front seat, the driver has to look around them to steer.
Which is not as much of a problem as one might expect, given the Baker’s lofty driving position and modest top speed of 25 miles an hour.
There is no steering wheel. At first glance there are few indications that the Baker was meant to be driven at all. A long steering tiller folds down from the left once the driver is seated; the driver pushes forward to steer left and pulls back to go right.
Speed is controlled by a lever just forward of the driver’s left elbow, and there are two brake pedals protruding from the carpet, one for each rear wheel.
On the road, the tall cabin tilts on its springs in corners, giving the sensation of driving a rubber-mounted lifeguard tower. “As you can see, we’ve come a long way in aerodynamics since 1909,” Mr. Leno said. “All the windows — the sides, the rear and the windshield — can be opened up, so you can get a nice breeze running through.”
Driving a car this rare — and this tall — makes its limited speed less of a problem in modern city traffic. Drivers of other vehicles inevitably slow to check out the Baker anyway.
Restoring an early electric requires some ingenuity. Electric motors haven’t changed much in the nearly 200 years since they were invented, so a shop that can rebuild an antique ceiling fan should be able to rewind the armature of an electric motor. Modern deep-cycle batteries, like those used in golf carts, electric boats and neighborhood electric vehicles, can be readily substituted for the originals.
Relatively few electric cars have survived, and their appeal is more that of an oddity or museum piece than that of a better-known classic automobile. So their prices have remained reasonable. According to the Web site of the Gold Book, which is published by Manheim Auctions and tracks prices paid at collector-car auctions, a well-maintained 1915 Baker, a very similar Rauch & Lang, or a Detroit Electric should sell for $9,000 to $20,000, depending on its condition.
Collectors are often attracted to the cars owned by their fathers. With one of these electrics, they can drive a machine that might have been driven by their great-grandmothers.
Sianelle
08-13-07, 09:17 PM
Um......$30,000? That's not a cheap car :( The problem still remains that the electricity has to come from somewhere and if that somewhere is a coal, oil, or gas fired power station I don't see how we're going to be any further ahead.
My other objection is that it's going to be made in China where wages are low and the air quality in the industrial cities is just plain dreadful. Not a solution, - still a part of the problem I'm afraid.
Love the Baker electric :) A battery design that's still rebuildable after 100 years of use sounds good to me. 25 miles an hour is plenty fast enough too; - I haven't noticed that whizz-flash high speed vehicles have helped much to improve traffic congestion.
Blue Order
08-13-07, 09:41 PM
Um......$30,000? That's not a cheap car :( It's not out of line with what people pay for gasoline-powered vehicles.
The problem still remains that the electricity has to come from somewhere and if that somewhere is a coal, oil, or gas fired power station I don't see how we're going to be any further ahead.I'm no expert, but supposedly electrics pollute less overall even when you factor coal-fired electricity generation into the equation.
My other objection is that it's going to be made in China where wages are low and the air quality in the industrial cities is just plain dreadful. Not a solution, - still a part of the problem I'm afraid.Unless that air pollution is generated by the production of this vehicle, it's irrelevant. Wages are low compared to U.S. wages, perhaps, but I doubt they're low compared to Chinese wages. You'd have to measure wages against the Chinese cost of living, not against the cost of living where you live. Still, I agree that China is able to produce at a lower cost because Chinese companies don't have to comply with environmental and labor regulations that western companies are subject to.
Roody
08-13-07, 09:51 PM
Still, I agree that China is able to produce at a lower cost because Chinese companies don't have to comply with environmental and labor regulations that western companies are subject to.
So the plant that builds the things pollutes even more than an American plant would. Obviously, when you're figuring outthe pollution footprint of a product, you MUST consider the pollution that attends the production of the vehicle.
You should also figure in the pollution that goes with disposal of the car when it's useful life is over. I wonder if the batteries pose an added toxic risk when they're discarded?
Electric cars might be better than gas cars, but so far they're not good enough. Thumbs down to electric cars at this point.
Now electric buses, maybe another story.... especially if made in the USA!
Disclosure: I'm a member of the UAW.
Blue Order
08-13-07, 10:18 PM
So the plant that builds the things pollutes even more than an American plant would.Maybe, maybe not.
Obviously, when you're figuring outthe pollution footprint of a product, you MUST consider the pollution that attends the production of the vehicle.I agree.
You should also figure in the pollution that goes with disposal of the car when it's useful life is over. I wonder if the batteries pose an added toxic risk when they're discarded?All good questions...
Disclosure: I'm a member of the UAW.Disclosure: I am opposed to "race to the bottom" globalization. If it's coming here, it shouldn't be manufactured under less stringent laws than our own. And our own laws should be beefed up...
Blue Order
08-13-07, 10:24 PM
Roody-- have you ever read "Not in Our Backyard (http://www.amazon.com/Not-Our-Backyard-Americas-Environment/dp/0688106447)"? There's an interesting chapter in there about the labor/environmental alliance that was almost formed between the UAW's Walter Reuther and David Brower of Sierra Club and Friends of the Earth fame. It didn't happen because Reuther was killed in an air crash-- the same flight Brower was supposed to be on. One almost senses that Brower was highly suspicious of the circumstances...
Robert C
08-13-07, 11:42 PM
The charging problem was also solved before the teens. In the 1909 motor manual I have, the electric trucks have the batteries mounted in a pack that was to be quickly swapped out for a charged pack. That allowed the trucks to be set with a fully charged set of batteries in about the time it took to refuel with gasoline.
I was thinking about that on a long bicycle trip in China. There are a lot of scooters used in town. The idea was a electric scooter refilling station. A person would pull in, remove the battery (that they never really own) and insert a charged one, paying for the level of discharge on the one they just returned to the station. Some method would need to be worked out to deal with battery degradation; but it would go a long way toward dealing with the range problem.
The way I can see this taking off would be for several of the major filling station franchises to agree on a standard battery package and telling the manufacturers what they are prepared to support; then, installing the charging stations.
Roody
08-14-07, 12:14 AM
Roody-- have you ever read "Not in Our Backyard (http://www.amazon.com/Not-Our-Backyard-Americas-Environment/dp/0688106447)"? There's an interesting chapter in there about the labor/environmental alliance that was almost formed between the UAW's Walter Reuther and David Brower of Sierra Club and Friends of the Earth fame. It didn't happen because Reuther was killed in an air crash-- the same flight Brower was supposed to be on. One almost senses that Brower was highly suspicious of the circumstances...
Reuther was a visionary. (He also proposed single-payer health insurance because he foresaw that health costs would run the auto companies into the ground.) The UAW puts out lots of environmental propoganda in their magazine for members, but I'm not convinced that their heart is really in it.
jondoh
08-14-07, 12:20 AM
just skimming through the responses, i'm surprised nobody mentioned the electric bike yet. My e-bike has allowed me to be car lite (my wife drives to work with our one car, i ride the e-bike, and we try not to drive too much on weekends).
I believe peak oil is going to have a huge impact on the way we live. By huge, i mean not just expensive gasoline but no gasoline or unreliable gasoline. I'm not sure there will be time to make all the electric cars that everyone is going to need. I believe we're going to have to reorganize the way we live around bicycles and public transportation. In order to make this work, people are going to have to be able to do most of their daily activities while using the e-bike about 6 miles one way. This means 3 miles to the bus or train station from home plus about another 3 miles from the station to work or school or what have you.
In my experience, i'm surprised to find that the e-bike (with a 25mph top speed) is not that much slower than a car on surface streets for trips up to 5 or 6 miles. The difference in time is 5 ~ 10 minutes. Cars are still better than bikes for carrying things or other people and of course they're better that shielding you from the elements but considering the cost of the car-- not to mention the energy costs, ebikes wins hands down.
Personally, I'd love to see the electric car become reality. It is obviously the future but I have some doubt that it will get here in time for everyone. having a real electric car by 2009 will be nice. by 2009 we'll need a few million of them.
bragi
08-14-07, 12:49 AM
Electric cars are potentially even worse for the environment than regular cars, especially from a global warming perspective. How do you think the electricity for a whole bunch of electric cars is going to be produced? And let's not even talk about the batteries...
wahoonc
08-14-07, 03:21 AM
I had forgotten about the old style alkaline batteries...talk about renewable! IF and that is a mighty big if the electricity is generated from alternate sources it may not be producing GHG. I agree that the $30,000 IS NOT affordable IMHO. That is an upper end car, not an entry level. Also it still keeps with the Jiminy Cricket theory that we can keep driving the way we do, just substitute another fuel. The sooner people realize that the only viable solution is curtailment of GHG and better utilization of scarce resources the better off they will be in the future. Maybe somebody should invent a car that runs off of body fat....:D:eek:
From personal experience with some electric vehicles (mainly golf carts) batteries require regular maintenance and they cannot be discharged below a certain point without drastically shortening the life of them. Americans are notorious for NOT properly maintaining vehicles. Then when it comes time to replace them it gets expensive! If you drive an electrical vehicle like most people drive a gas one, you would be replacing the batteries about every 3 years. I just swapped out a set of batteries in my FIL's golf cart and the total cost was over $400, those batteries are about 6 years old and have been properly maintained. And this is a light use, low speed vehicle.
Aaron:)
Sianelle
08-14-07, 05:47 AM
just skimming through the responses, i'm surprised nobody mentioned the electric bike yet. My e-bike has allowed me to be car lite (my wife drives to work with our one car, i ride the e-bike, and we try not to drive too much on weekends).
In my experience, i'm surprised to find that the e-bike (with a 25mph top speed) is not that much slower than a car on surface streets for trips up to 5 or 6 miles. The difference in time is 5 ~ 10 minutes. Cars are still better than bikes for carrying things or other people and of course they're better that shielding you from the elements but considering the cost of the car-- not to mention the energy costs, ebikes wins hands down.
I ride a tricycle that I converted from a Hercules ladies heavyweight roadster bicycle. Today I took it out for a roadtest after spending the past few days replacing the LHS rear wheel with an electric hub motor wheel. An electric assisted tricycle is totally practical as a car replacement for local trips and I can make that claim that after a year spent using an old gents Raleigh that was a wee bit of a 'lash up' conversion to an electric tricycle. The Raleigh had a few faults in its construction and when it finally broke down one time too many for me to be patient about it I set about constructing the Hercules tricycle as its much improved replacement.
For all its faults the Raleigh based machine more than proved itself as a utility machine and during its year of hard service it was used to haul all manner of things over a pretty rough mix of country roads. Its finest hour came when I hauled a large hardwood workbench I'd been given home; - but I will add that I took the journey at a slow and careful pace because I was worried about breaking the subframe that held the rear axle on.
In terms of cost the Raleigh cost me @ $300.00 for the electric motor kit, @ $199.00 for the trike axle and the base bicycle itself was free as I found it in the local rubbish tip. Almost everything else I used to get it on the road was recycled material except for the tyres which I purchased new. The Hercules is a little more upmarket because I purchased the Indian made roadster bicycle 2nd hand in near new condition for $200.00. The Raleigh was single speed, the Hercules has a Sachs two speed kickback hub which works really nicely. I hope to get my camera out over the next couple of days and when I do I'll take some pictures.
Fredmertz51
08-14-07, 06:52 AM
Don't electric vehicles recharge from coal and nuke powered sources? Or is that ok now? Coal has a carbon footprint, and nuclear power has the radioactive waste problem. I must have missed something.
maddyfish
08-14-07, 08:29 AM
Just what we need to start buzzing around in communist made electric cars. Here where I live it would be charged by a coal fired elctricity plant. No thanks to a coal fired car. I'll stick to my bike.
Roody
08-14-07, 08:50 AM
Maybe somebody should invent a car that runs off of body fat....:D:eek:
Aaron:)
Somebody already did. And we all own one!
(or more than one... many more in your case :p)
1ply
08-14-07, 10:01 AM
Maybe somebody should invent a car that runs off of body fat....:D:eek:
Aaron:)
Bringing America from the brink of oil starvation back to the forefront as a world energy superpower!!!!!!
JeffS
08-14-07, 10:25 AM
Electric cars are potentially even worse for the environment than regular cars, especially from a global warming perspective. How do you think the electricity for a whole bunch of electric cars is going to be produced? And let's not even talk about the batteries...
Yes, potentially worse, and potentially much better. If we really cared about pollution we would force the electric industry to clean up their act.
Electric cars are, unfortunately, not about pollution, they're about dwindling oil supply. Yea, they'll market them as "clean", but widespread adoption will only happen as a result of oil shortage - or more specifically drastically increased oil cost. They'll be sold to upper middle-class and above people who will drive them infrequently and replace them every couple of years. Hardly an environmentally sound "solution".
Blue Order
08-14-07, 12:47 PM
Electric cars are potentially even worse for the environment than regular cars, especially from a global warming perspective. How do you think the electricity for a whole bunch of electric cars is going to be produced? And let's not even talk about the batteries...
Don't electric vehicles recharge from coal and nuke powered sources? Or is that ok now? Coal has a carbon footprint, and nuclear power has the radioactive waste problem. I must have missed something.
Just what we need to start buzzing around in communist made electric cars. Here where I live it would be charged by a coal fired elctricity plant. No thanks to a coal fired car. I'll stick to my bike.As I've already said, I'm no expert on electrics, but if you've ever watched "Who Killed the Electric Car," that point was raised and refuted. Even taking carbon-fueled electriciy generation into account, electric cars pollute less than gasoline-fueled cars. And there's no reason that our society can't-- or shouldn't-- transition to clean energy production.
Yes, potentially worse, and potentially much better. If we really cared about pollution we would force the electric industry to clean up their act.Exactly. Removing the gasoline-powered automobile from the roads is a huge step, but it's not the only step we need to take. Even if everybody rode bikes and nobody drove gasoline or electric powered automobiles, we still have to transition to clean energy.
Electric cars are, unfortunately, not about pollution, they're about dwindling oil supply. Yea, they'll market them as "clean", but widespread adoption will only happen as a result of oil shortage - or more specifically drastically increased oil cost. They'll be sold to upper middle-class and above people who will drive them infrequently and replace them every couple of years. Hardly an environmentally sound "solution".I think a societal transition to a bike and [clean] public transit centric transportation model, with electric and other clean cars filling in the gaps, will be the direction we must ultimately travel in.
Roody
08-14-07, 02:28 PM
No matter what (if anything) replaces coal for electricity generation, it's going to take some time to switch to that new source. If, at the same time, we also start powering cars with electricity, the conversion to clean power might take even longer.
Clean power might cost more than coal power, at least initially. So plug-in cars might provide a stronger economic incentive to keep using coal, since people just love cheap transportation.
I'd really rather see electricity used for buses (and/or streetcars) and light rail, as these are inherently more efficient than private cars of any type.
wahoonc
08-14-07, 02:49 PM
Don't electric vehicles recharge from coal and nuke powered sources? Or is that ok now? Coal has a carbon footprint, and nuclear power has the radioactive waste problem. I must have missed something.
Not necessarily, we have wind power, solar power and hydro power. I have an acquaintance that has a chunk of property that happens to contain an old mill site. He has converted the dam and mill race to power a small hydro plant. He is producing electricity for 3 or 4 homes at the moment. His house is far enough off the main road that it made it cost effective for him to do it. I have a branch (creek) that runs thru one end of my property, we have discussed damming it up for an aquaculture pond, I need to check but it may have enough head to provide some electricity too.:p I know I can get solar to work around here. According to the tables I have checked we are second or third in available solar radiation in the nation, which makes them a viable alternative.
Aaron:)
Roody
08-14-07, 03:14 PM
Not necessarily, we have wind power, solar power and hydro power. I have an acquaintance that has a chunk of property that happens to contain an old mill site. He has converted the dam and mill race to power a small hydro plant. He is producing electricity for 3 or 4 homes at the moment. His house is far enough off the main road that it made it cost effective for him to do it. I have a branch (creek) that runs thru one end of my property, we have discussed damming it up for an aquaculture pond, I need to check but it may have enough head to provide some electricity too.:p I know I can get solar to work around here. According to the tables I have checked we are second or third in available solar radiation in the nation, which makes them a viable alternative.
Aaron:)
For those of us who don't have a hydro dam in the back yard, what would it take to juice a plug-in with homemade electricity? Is this even feasible at this time?
Sianelle
08-14-07, 03:30 PM
For those of us who don't have a hydro dam in the back yard, what would it take to juice a plug-in with homemade electricity? Is this even feasible at this time?
I've considered setting up a wind generator to charge my electric tricycle and provide emergency lighting for my home.
lyeinyoureye
08-14-07, 03:48 PM
Electric cars are potentially even worse for the environment than regular cars, especially from a global warming perspective. How do you think the electricity for a whole bunch of electric cars is going to be produced? And let's not even talk about the batteries...I'd say that an electric car creates as much in the way of GHGs as the average cyclist does. If you look at the efficiency of various transportation methods (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_efficiency_in_transportation), you may noticed that a bicycle is roughly twice as efficient w/o taking into account the upstream fossil fuel use. The problem w/ bicycles stems from the problems we have with food regarding fossil fuel emissions. The average cyclist only gets ~100mpg (http://constructal.blogspot.com/2006/03/whats-mileage-on-that-bicycle.html) fossil fuel equivalent because it takes, on average, about 5Cal of fossil fuel to get 1Cal of food energy. The electric car also suffers a hit because electricity generation/transmission is only ~40% efficient, so it's at ~100mpg fossil fuel equivalent as well. Batteries are already covered in just about any state that has legislators w/ more than say, three, brain cells. If you like you can throw them in the trash, but large format lead acid, li-whatever, NiMH, and probably even the more exotic chemistries have significant core charges assocaited with their value in terms of raw materials. The largest source of battery pollution is the smaller alkaline batteries. Probably because there is no core charge associated w/ their proper disposal/recycling, even though they can be safely recycled for free. A electric car carrying more than one person is far more energy efficient, faster, and more comfortable per mile than a bicycle. Otoh, an electric bicycle is superior to an electric car w/ two or fewer people, and an electric velomobile is for all intents and purposes the greenest form of transportation out there. If we grow or buy your own food w/ fewer or no fossil fuels, we can adjust our relative emissions accordingly.
For those of us who don't have a hydro dam in the back yard, what would it take to juice a plug-in with homemade electricity? Is this even feasible at this time?A used car alternator, set of paddles, and the appropriate gearing. Imo, this is actually a better bet for cheap electricity than homebrew wind, since we have way more control over the flow and speed of our setup, which is very useful when using a j-yard alternator.
wahoonc
08-14-07, 03:53 PM
For those of us who don't have a hydro dam in the back yard, what would it take to juice a plug-in with homemade electricity? Is this even feasible at this time?
Either wind power or solar. But I had to break it to you Roody...Lansing is not known as a solar powerhouse...not sure about the wind part. Biggest problem is that solar is EXPENSIVE per kw. You could mount a solar panel on top of the car to keep the batteries topped up, but would still need to hit the grid every now and again. If they can ever get the next generation of solar panels on line it will make a huge difference in cost per kw and efficiency. Another interesting item that has been hovering around for a while is super conductors. According to my electrical/ceramics engineer brother, they would revolutionize the whole electric generation/distribution in ways that people can only dream of. From his description they could shut down 50% of the current power generation plants, and the others would still be producing more power than we could use. Apparently the biggest sticking point right now is getting them to work at room temperature. They have finally gotten them to work in the -100F range...better than the near absolute zero (-200F) they were working at:D
Also as a side note to hydro power...a lot of older projects are being dismantled for a variety of environmental reasons, from blocking fish migration to diversion of water from watersheds. I think hydro is very viable in smaller installations, but think of the Hoover/Boulder Dam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoover_Dam) and the impact it has had on the environment and what would happen if it ever let go:eek:
Aaron:)
Blue Order
08-14-07, 04:14 PM
Not necessarily, we have wind power, solar power and hydro power. I have an acquaintance that has a chunk of property that happens to contain an old mill site. He has converted the dam and mill race to power a small hydro plant. He is producing electricity for 3 or 4 homes at the moment. His house is far enough off the main road that it made it cost effective for him to do it. I have a branch (creek) that runs thru one end of my property, we have discussed damming it up for an aquaculture pond, I need to check but it may have enough head to provide some electricity too.:p I know I can get solar to work around here. According to the tables I have checked we are second or third in available solar radiation in the nation, which makes them a viable alternative.
Aaron:)My ideal would be solar power at home, perhaps with some wind generated power thrown into the mix. Plug my car in to clean, free energy. All I need is a place to do it...
Not car free, but car light, and a ZEV footprint.
wahoonc
08-14-07, 04:55 PM
I've considered setting up a wind generator to charge my electric tricycle and provide emergency lighting for my home.
Sianelle,
How is your solar potential? I think it is going to take a mix of several systems to be effective. I could do windpower but I am in a borderline area for a decent payback. BTW ever seen the conversion to use a Sturmey-Archer Dyno hub to build a wind generator (http://www.gotwind.org/Original_Windgen.htm)?:D
Several times it has been suggested that the future is going to depend on small groups that the governments are going to be helpless. I believe that (are they helping us now?) and am reading, retaining, experimenting and enjoying myself.
Aaron:)
wahoonc
08-14-07, 05:04 PM
My ideal would be solar power at home, perhaps with some wind generated power thrown into the mix. Plug my car in to clean, free energy. All I need is a place to do it...
Not car free, but car light, and a ZEV footprint.
This is what it is going to take. People interested in reducing consumption...not increasing it.:(
I am playing with a new house design, utilizing among other things, earth sheltering, passive solar, active solar for lighting, water pumping, and electric vehicle (cars, trucks, bikes, scooters, etc) charging. Where I live now in NC cooling is my single biggest cost (electric wise;))
I have used solar heaters in the past with good results. The last round were small window mounted (http://www.jrwhipple.com/sr/solheater.html) units made out of foil covered insulation board. They were relatively inexpensive to make and really took a bite out of my fuel oil bill. The local Urban Ministry used to make them and donate or sell them depending on your circumstances. I don't know if they still do or not.
Aaron:)
wahoonc
08-14-07, 06:58 PM
Been doing a bit more digging. Theoretically you can charge an electric vehicle with solar, at the time being it will be quite a bit more expensive than grid power, also you will need to charge during daylight hours:rolleyes: But it can be done, several people have built some interesting electrical powered vehicles with on board solar chargers. Biggest drawback is getting enough solar to keep sufficiently charged up with out plugging in. The panels aren't efficient enough per sf to keep up with regular usage. But it is an interesting exercise. I can see a definite market for lightweight electric vehicles along the line of micro cars or trikes like Sianlle has. I have looked at the xtracycle with a Stoke Monkey and other alternatives but to me the cost isn't justifiable for me at this time...yet:D
Aaron:)
Blue Order
08-14-07, 07:11 PM
Been doing a bit more digging. Theoretically you can charge an electric vehicle with solar, at the time being it will be quite a bit more expensive than grid power, also you will need to charge during daylight hours:rolleyes: But it can be done, several people have built some interesting electrical powered vehicles with on board solar chargers. Biggest drawback is getting enough solar to keep sufficiently charged up with out plugging in. The panels aren't efficient enough per sf to keep up with regular usage. But it is an interesting exercise. I can see a definite market for lightweight electric vehicles along the line of micro cars or trikes like Sianlle has. I have looked at the xtracycle with a Stoke Monkey and other alternatives but to me the cost isn't justifiable for me at this time...yet:D
Aaron:)I think the idea would be to charge at home on solar and/or wind power, and to have built-in solar panels on the car to help charge it while parked. I don't think they could take the place of a good long charge, but they could help a bit. Maybe charging stations at appropriate locations-- work for example-- to help recharge. And as somebody suggested, swappable battery packs for a "quick charge" at refueling stations.
Sianelle
08-14-07, 07:39 PM
Sianelle,
How is your solar potential? I think it is going to take a mix of several systems to be effective. I could do windpower but I am in a borderline area for a decent payback. BTW ever seen the conversion to use a Sturmey-Archer Dyno hub to build a wind generator (http://www.gotwind.org/Original_Windgen.htm)?:D
Several times it has been suggested that the future is going to depend on small groups that the governments are going to be helpless. I believe that (are they helping us now?) and am reading, retaining, experimenting and enjoying myself.
Aaron:)
Hi Aaron, back in my alternative lifestyle small farming days I had a wind generator setup that used a SA Dyno-hub to charge a bank of 12 volt car batteries. It was very effective as the property had a pretty steady prevailing wind, - BUT one night we had a nasty and unexpected storm and the windmill self destructed :o Normally I would tie off the windmill each evening, - only that particular evening I was fooled by the clear still weather and I didn't. I can still remember awakening to the sound of the wind generator's turbine like shriek as it it hit an unbelieveable number of revs before flying apart. These days I would build a failsafe device to turn the windmill out of the wind, but back then I was pretty green and inexperienced with that sort of thing.
Solar power would work Ok in my location, - only I can't really afford to buy solar panels at the moment. Things like wind generators can be built from recycled materials from the local rubbish tip at little cost :)
gerv
08-14-07, 08:44 PM
Did I miss this point amid all these posts? If the automobile-driving community switched to electric tomorrow, where would the electricity come from? Whether it's coal or hydro or hot air, the grid can barely support a few hot days in the summer.
How would a gazillion charging cars affect the electricity grid?
lyeinyoureye
08-14-07, 08:58 PM
Did I miss this point amid all these posts? If the automobile-driving community switched to electric tomorrow, where would the electricity come from? Whether it's coal or hydro or hot air, the grid can barely support a few hot days in the summer.
How would a gazillion charging cars affect the electricity grid?Don't charge them during the summer peak. ;) We go from maxing out the grid on a summer afternoon to using maybe half of it if we're industrious during that very night. We have more than enough capacity (http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/12/180_million_plu.php) to power a ton of cars off peak.
Sianelle
08-14-07, 10:19 PM
This is the link to the website here in NZ where I purchased the electric hub kit I used on my tricycle......
http://www.motrax.co.nz/electric_wheel_kits.htm
I've been a long time fan of the French Mochet Velocars and I feel certain that a vehicle of this type would make a good basis for a lightweight electric car.
I'm not sure that I would want to drive a Chinese built car. Their reliability
and safety leave something to be desired.
As for electric cars, well, if you MUST have a cage, then an electrical one
is the way to go. They are 6 times more efficient. This includes all the losses
attributed to getting the power to the car (power plant losses, power line
losses, charging losses etc).
1. the power grid can handle the power requirements
2. safe for the environment. (Lithium Ion batteries are easily recyclable)
3. Electricity from a power plant pollutes less than gas from a refinery.
4. Can easily have range and power of comparable Internal Combustion Engines
It's a good thing.
Deal with it.
CE
Robert C
08-15-07, 12:25 AM
4. Can easily have range and power of comparable Internal Combustion Engines
I have been following the electric car development and eve built one with my father many years ago. The above statement just is not true with real-world batteries (I do not consider liquid sodium to be a real world battery, just one traffic accident in one of those things and it would be the end of the electric car industry). You can easily have the range (well, not easily) OR the power of a comparable (as long as you do not compare the cost) Internal Combustion Engine.
Range and recharge time will continue to be problems as long as we do not make some unforeseen leap in energy storage, and transmission system knowledge (can you imagine trying to transfer the amount of electricity to make a 120hp car run for three hours [approximately 266.4 KWh] in a single minute; and, make this safe for the typical driver to do in the rain while talking on a cell phone and holding a latte, it boggles the mind).
bmike
08-15-07, 12:39 AM
Maybe somebody should invent a car that runs off of body fat....
Aaron
Somebody already did. And we all own one!
(or more than one... many more in your case :p)
the yes men have you covered:
"Without oil, at least four billion people would starve. This spiral of trouble would make the oil infrastructure utterly useless" -- unless their bodies could be turned into fuel.
That was the satirical message delivered by two corporate ethics activists to the Gas and Oil Exposition 2007 in Calgary, Alberta. The activists, part of political trickster collective the Yes Men, used the Exposition to stage their latest theatre of corporate absurdity, with Exxon/Mobil and the Natural Petroleum Council playing the fools.
The prank, intended as a critique of the fossil fuel industry's influence on energy policy, caused confusion and consternation on the final day of the Exposition, one of the industry's largest gatherings.
The NPC, which is led by former Exxon-Mobil CEO Lee Raymond, advises the White House on gas and oil issues. They were expected to announce the findings of a Raymond-chaired study, commissioned by the Department of Energy, on joint US-Canadian energy policy.
Instead, attendees of the day's $45.00 keynote luncheon were addressed by the Yes Men's Andy Bichlbaum, who identified himself as an NPC representative named Shepard Wolff.
After noting that current energy policies will likely lead to "huge global calamities" and disrupt oil supplies, Wolff told the audience "that in the worst case scenario, the oil industry could "keep fuel flowing" by transforming the billions of people who die into oil," said a Yes Men press release.
Yes Man Mike Bonnano, posing as an Exxon representative named Florian Osenberg, added that "With more fossil fuels comes a greater chance of disaster, but that means more feedstock for Vivoleum. Fuel will continue to flow for those of us left."
The impostors led growingly suspicious attendees in lighting Vivoleum candles made, they said, from a former Exxon janitor who died from cleaning a toxic spill. When shown a mock video of the janitor professing his desire to be turned in death into candles, a conference organizer pulled Bonanno and Bichlbaum from the stage.
As security guards led Bonanno from the room, Bichlbaum told reporters that "Without oil we could no longer produce or transport food, and most of humanity would starve. That would be a tragedy, but at least all those bodies could be turned into fuel for the rest of us."
Noting that "150,000 people already die from climate-change related effects every year," he added, "That's only going to go up - maybe way, way up. Will it all go to waste? That would be cruel."
The Exposition's organizers later issued a press release verifying that "the "environmental and corporate ethics activists" were not representatives of their respected organizations. According to Calgary's CTV news, the organizers "were approached by what they thought was a reputable company offering speakers from the Petroleum Council." Only after the debacle did they contact the Council and learn of their mistake.
(http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2007/06/yes_men_strike_.html)
bmike
08-15-07, 12:42 AM
Discount the stories that Michael Moore told you. He does not seem to be bothered be not letting the facts get in the way of making sure his entertain-u-mentaries are exciting and profitable. GM experimented with one way to make an electric car and ended the experiment, how hard is that. They are preparing another electric car using what they learned.
if you are talking about "who killed the electric car (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Car%3F)" - michael moore didn't make that movie.
Robert C
08-15-07, 02:13 AM
if you are talking about "who killed the electric car (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Car%3F)" - michael moore didn't make that movie.
Yes, you are right. My forgetfulness is at fault there. It still failed to give a clear picture of the death and demand of the EV1
Of course people would line up to buy a car that cost no more, or less than a conventional auto, would have the range and power of a conventional auto, would refill in the time of a conventional auto, and would never need maintenance while using a penny per mile of fuel; however, that wasn't the EV1. There were even a few people that wanted it, with all of its warts; but, not enough to justify keeping the parts distribution, let alone manufacturing, in place.
As far as the cost of operation, setting aside the issue of battery replacement, I do remember reading an auto review of the EV1. The reviewer calculated the power draw of the charging station (remember, to make the EV1 safe, it used an inductive charging paddle). Keeping in mind that both petrol and electricity were priced different in the 80's, he calculated that the fuel cost of driving the EV1 was about the same as driving a car that got 20 miles per gallon; which, even in the 80's, was no great achievement.
As said, I am a great proponent of electric cars even though I like electric bikes blended with mass transit better for most transportation needs. However, I have also studied them enough to be realistic.
I have corrected my post
bmike
08-15-07, 06:57 AM
Yes, you are right. My forgetfulness is at fault there. It still failed to give a clear picture of the death and demand of the EV1
Of course people would line up to buy a car that cost no more, or less than a conventional auto, would have the range and power of a conventional auto, would refill in the time of a conventional auto, and would never need maintenance while using a penny per mile of fuel; however, that wasn't the EV1. There were even a few people that wanted it, with all of its warts; but, not enough to justify keeping the parts distribution, let alone manufacturing, in place.
As far as the cost of operation, setting aside the issue of battery replacement, I do remember reading an auto review of the EV1. The reviewer calculated the power draw of the charging station (remember, to make the EV1 safe, it used an inductive charging paddle). Keeping in mind that both petrol and electricity were priced different in the 80's, he calculated that the fuel cost of driving the EV1 was about the same as driving a car that got 20 miles per gallon; which, even in the 80's, was no great achievement.
As said, I am a great proponent of electric cars even though I like electric bikes blended with mass transit better for most transportation needs. However, I have also studied them enough to be realistic.
I have corrected my post
no worries. just pointed out that michael moore doesn't make all the "entertain-mentaries" as you describe...
moving around uses solar energy. solar energy locked up in food as calories for walking and cycling (and the embodied energy in our bikes and roads and gear), and cars and trucks use solar energy too - but it's been locked up underground for gazillions of years.
there is no fee lunch. if we want to move, we have to burn something.
in the us, our wastelines are showing a lot of promise - walking and cycling would ease the burden on our healthcare system, and it would get cars off the road. it would also support big corn and other big ag businesses. if we are going to grow our fuel - we might as well enjoy eating it before we burn it up getting to work. ;)
or, we can find a way to burn something else - coal or gas to charge cars, or oil to 'stay the course' with our current fleet.
i propose we figure out why we need to move around so much first, then re-design our cities and towns to minimize all this going to and fro which require more than minimal human effort, and fill it in with real choices for alternative transportation - be them limited use of current technology, hamster powered roadsters, electric hybrid wonder machines, old fashioned trains, etc.
maddyfish
08-15-07, 07:08 AM
Y. They'll be sold to upper middle-class and above people who will drive them infrequently and replace them every couple of years. Hardly an environmentally sound "solution".
Just like hybrids now. What a mess in a few years when all the batteries have to go somewhere.
maddyfish
08-15-07, 07:13 AM
just skimming through the responses, i'm surprised nobody mentioned the electric bike yet.
In my experience, i'm surprised to find that the e-bike (with a 25mph top speed) is not that much slower than a car on surface streets for trips up to 5 or 6 miles. .
The reason nobody mentioned the e bike is because it is so un-needed. 25 mph top speed? whoop-de-do, my bike has a top speed of about 42mph downhill, and 34mph on flat ground.
Sure it's nice, because you don't have to work to ride, but around town it's not faster than a good biker.
wahoonc
08-15-07, 07:32 AM
The reason nobody mentioned the e bike is because it is so un-needed. 25 mph top speed? whoop-de-do, my bike has a top speed of about 42mph downhill, and 34mph on flat ground.
Sure it's nice, because you don't have to work to ride, but around town it's not faster than a good biker.
Is that a fully loaded cargo bike? Or how about on the days when you have to commute but are feeling under the weather or have a physical disability that keeps you from riding long distances at high speeds? The e-bike, just like the regular bike, is not the total answer but it is part of the solution. I could see where the e-bike could actually extend someone's commuting range (in fact a I know of a couple people that have done just that) and keep them out of a car and from polluting. We can split hairs all day long, but at the end of the day every less ICE vehicle on the road is a plus in my book.
Aaron:)
Roody
08-15-07, 09:06 AM
Discount the stories that Michael Moore told you. He does not seem to be bothered be not letting the facts get in the way of making sure his entertain-u-mentaries are exciting and profitable. GM experimented with one way to make an electric car and ended the experiment, how hard is that. They are preparing another electric car using what they learned.
if you are talking about "who killed the electric car (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Car%3F)" - michael moore didn't make that movie.
Sounds like Moore isn't the only one who doesn't let the facts get in the way!
lyeinyoureye
08-15-07, 10:27 AM
Just like hybrids now. What a mess in a few years when all the batteries have to go somewhere.Yeah I know. Like when Toyota's offering $200 plus shipping on any Prius pack out there, or the fact that they go for ~$1000 from j-yards. If you ever get one of those messes I'll take it off your hands... For a fee. :p
The reason nobody mentioned the e bike is because it is so un-needed. 25 mph top speed? whoop-de-do, my bike has a top speed of about 42mph downhill, and 34mph on flat ground.
Sure it's nice, because you don't have to work to ride, but around town it's not faster than a good biker.It's nice because it's much cleaner and cheaper than a bike if you do more than ~10 miles per day. I would imagine a properly setup e-bike would be faster than a normal bike w/ the same rider because they have more energy to tap.
Blue Order
08-15-07, 10:43 AM
Yes, you are right. My forgetfulness is at fault there. It still failed to give a clear picture of the death and demand of the EV1
Of course people would line up to buy a car that cost no more, or less than a conventional auto, would have the range and power of a conventional auto, would refill in the time of a conventional auto, and would never need maintenance while using a penny per mile of fuel; however, that wasn't the EV1. There were even a few people that wanted it, with all of its warts; but, not enough to justify keeping the parts distribution, let alone manufacturing, in place.EV1 owners were begging GM to sell the cars to them when the leases ran out. GM refused, and the cars were crushed. More than a bit disingenuous of GM to say there was no demand. Even if there was no demand to continue making new EV1's-- and that argument is dubious at best-- there was enormous demand to keep the existing EV1s in the hands of the leaseholders.
Blue Order
08-15-07, 10:46 AM
The reason nobody mentioned the e bike is because it is so un-needed. 25 mph top speed? whoop-de-do, my bike has a top speed of about 42mph downhill, and 34mph on flat ground.
Sure it's nice, because you don't have to work to ride, but around town it's not faster than a good biker.My sister has a bike with an electric assist on the front hub-- is that the same thing? If so, I've ridden one. While it is a lot easier going uphill, it's not powerful enough to do anything more than assist my pedaling. On flat ground, it can probably pull me along without me pedaling.
Nightshade
08-15-07, 11:12 AM
There are three basic problems with the automobile be it
electric or gas. They all take........
1.)Resources to build. This entire process is the same for gas or
electric.
2.)Fuel (electric or gasoline). The present day electric grids are old
and in dire need of updating in both mechanics and resouces to
provide electricty. Fossil fuels are on the decline so they will
phase themselves out in time.
People simply must come to understand that every electric item
can't just be thrown on the grid with no concern as to TOTAL
LOADING OF THE GRID. Electricity doesn't happen by magic.
There will come a time of brown outs then electicity rationing
before much longer if people don't "get" that just because
you can plug it in doesn't mean that the power will always
be there to consume.
3.)The concept of personal private transportation vehicles is a flawed
wasteful concept that MUST die in favor of mass transit if people
are to travel at all.
Let's face it.....cars are stupid on an envionmental scale. Very stupid.
They also spoil & bankrupt the population that uses them in great
numbers. It is the bicycle that is the one & only mechanical means
of personal transportaton that is both environmentally friendly &
common sense vehicle for the masses. (even if you have to sweat
once in awhile)
So people can wax & wane over electric cars.....they are just as
stupid as a gasoline/diesel powered car.
maddyfish
08-15-07, 11:45 AM
Yeah I know. Like when Toyota's offering $200 plus shipping on any Prius pack out there, or the fact that they go for ~$1000 from j-yards. If you ever get one of those messes I'll take it off your hands... For a fee. :p
.
That's right now, 10-15 years from now will be a different story. Do you think Toyota will be spending money on 15 year old cars? NO WAY!
Also in 10-15 years most of the hybrids will be IN the junkyard, right now the battery packs are valuable for crash replacements, like most parts on newer cars. I remember when a Ford Variable Venturi carburetor was $500 with no guarantee from a junkyard, now they're just junk.
maddyfish
08-15-07, 11:46 AM
It's nice because it's much cleaner and cheaper than a bike if you do more than ~10 miles per day. I would imagine a properly setup e-bike would be faster than a normal bike w/ the same rider because they have more energy to tap.
How is it cheaper? I have a bike, it works, if I wanted an ebike, I'd have to buy it, and charge it. I don't see it being cheaper.
Maybe faster under certain circumstances, but can you over- run the motor, i.e. go faster than 25 downhill?