Road Bike Racing - Tonight, Pcad was the TT CF Bullet of High Speed Death

Well, not really, but I did have a great dry run on the TT course I'm riding in Sept. on my Cdale Slice. It's rolling hills, and after 10-15 mins. on this course grinding up gradual upgrades into the headwind I'm thinking 'it's going to be tough to average 20mph here'.

Incorrect.

The downhills on this road were friggin SCREAMING on a TT bike. 30-40mph for considerable stretches. I ran out of gear to pedal for hundreds of meters a couple of times and just had to tuck and roll. Man that was a blast. TT bikes are in hyperdrive going down a hill. Amazing. I'm a speed junkie, no fear, loved it. In the end I actually averaged about 21mph for 14 miles. That will be faster on race day with Zipps, TT helmet and race day adrenaline.

Dr. W. will average 28mph : ).

I don't care. I love the whole TT thing. Right up Pcad's alley. Like I said you can't get dropped in a TT. Besides, I'm already not the slowest TT guy in NY State (I'm ranked like 98th out of 140 or so 35+ dudes). Next step: get up into the top half of the Master's rankings. That's really cool: training for races and trying to crawl up that USCF ranking ladder.

Anyway, it was Big Fun, and I did enjoy the course. I'll ride it at least three more times prior to race day. I know the road fairly well, but on TT day I'll have ridden it on my TT bike at least four times. This ROCKS. Never thought I'd like the TT thing so much. Very cool. A welcome new focus for my riding, and an outstanding way to stay involved in racing as I get older.

Well, not really, but I did have a great dry run on the TT course I'm riding in Sept. on my Cdale Slice. It's rolling hills, and after 10-15 mins. on this course grinding up gradual upgrades into the headwind I'm thinking 'it's going to be tough to average 20mph here'.

Incorrect.

The downhills on this road were friggin SCREAMING on a TT bike. 30-40mph for considerable stretches. I ran out of gear to pedal for hundreds of meters a couple of times and just had to tuck and roll. Man that was a blast. Averaged about 21mph for 14 miles. That will be faster on race day with Zipps, TT helmet and race day adrenaline.

Dr. W. will average 28mph : ).

I don't care. I love the whole TT thing. Right up Pcad's alley. Like I said you can't get dropped in a TT. Besides, I'm already not the slowest TT guy in NY State (I'm ranked like 98th out of 140 or so 35+ dudes). Next step: get up into the top half of the Master's rankings.

Baby steps my little weenies, baby steps.

Good idea to run the course early. I would guess others who have done that course will have some high gears for those downhill sections. Maybe some tall gearing is a good idea ? You probably already are thinking about this anyway. Sounds like great fun!

I really want a TT bike :(

Good idea to run the course early. I would guess others who have done that course will have some high gears for those downhill sections. Maybe some tall gearing is a good idea ? You probably already are thinking about this anyway. Sounds like great fun!

I think at speeds above 40 MPH you'd be better off resting than trying to get to 40.5 MPH.

I think at speeds above 40 MPH you'd be better off resting than trying to get to 40.5 MPH.

That's a good point. Any other thoughts on this? This course might be one where a 54-56 tooth chainring might be very useful, but how many mph would that give you vs. the recovery time you can get on those stretches?

TT bikes are fun, I know. Glad you enjoyed it! Just wait til you've got full aero gear -- it happens more often haha.

You want to push some power downhill, albeit less than you push downhill. If you're spinning out, maybe you should look into the FSA stuff. Even if you're not pushing much, you want some wattage then.

While I have procured a goofy looking LG aero helmet, the skinsuit was a non-starter for me. Wearing the one my LBS ordered for me was like a full-body turniquet. Not a chance. Maybe I have to try the next size up. Of course the lack of pockets sucks - I'll have to find one with a zip up rear pocket. I figure the helmet and wheels might save me a minute in a 40 min. TT. The skinsuit might be worth 15 seconds.

Talk to me after that 15 secs. keeps me out of the top ten at a future TT.

That's a good point. Any other thoughts on this? This course might be one where a 54-56 tooth chainring might be very useful, but how many mph would that give you vs. the recovery time you can get on those stretches?


It's going to depend on the course,the hill, the weather, your legs, etc. The answer is "it depends".
Can you somehow try a big ring on the course before the race and see how you like it? Can you try out all your TT gear on the course? That would be good. Twice is better, once resting down the hills and once pedaling down the hills. That would mean more than anything else. It still may not be an obvious answer.
If you're spinning out at 40, 42 mph pedaling should be OK. It depends.

I think at speeds above 40 MPH you'd be better off resting than trying to get to 40.5 MPH.

Unless you've just totally dumped your ***** on a long climb, crested the top and spun out your 55/11, it's a big no.

One MPH is HUGE in a TT, even if it's only for a couple of miles. That's 5 seconds at 40, 8 seconds at 30. Pizza came in second Sunday's TT by .8 seconds. You decide.

Plus there's a carryover onto the parts of the course where you begin to slow.

If you're not putting out watts throughout, you're losing time.

As my team is the one sponsoring the TT, I thought I would chime in. My plan is a 54 up front (my standard setup) and a 11-25 in the back. I will be pedaling the whole time. The course is not a technical one, but the climbs are just enough to make one suffer.

What do you need a rear zipper for?

28mph on that course? I am thinking no, but who knows. Prob more likely around 26 or so. I haven't done the course in a few years start to finish (though I have ridden parts of it). For people to get an idea of what we are talking about

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r186/DrWJODonnell/SilvermineTT.jpg

great now ive decided i need a TT bike...but but i also need a cross bike for the upcoming season, and of course my HT MTB needs to FS friend for my tired back...maaan

sounds like a lot of fun and good luck!!

With a broken collarbone a 1.5 months ago IM just now starting to feel comfortable going fast on a bike. Damn crash put the fear of god into me LoL.

Those in the bike business love you guys...

Buy more stuff!!!!!:D

26mph. God help me you genetic mutant. I'll be happy with anything over 22mph. But I will procure a 54 or 55 tooth big ring for my TT bike. That's the beauty of TT's I suppose. I can't race Dr. W. (That would be like me trying to hit a baseball against Roger Clemens). It's just Pcad vs. the clock and every other 45+ mope with aerobars. I would agree with Dr. W. - the climbs aren't really 'climbs', but long enough to put you in the hurt locker (the opening upgrade is mostly uphill for about 2+ miles). The best part about this roller coaster course? About 3 miles from the end it becomes a very fast course into a screaming 35mph+ descent to the finish. That's nice to look forward to. My last TT (High Point) saved the hardest parts for the last 200 meters.

I ride on this road 5-6x annually on long rides anyway, and I've even done a road race on half of it, so I'm very familar with the course. It's only about 20 miles from my home.

Unless you've just totally dumped your ***** on a long climb, crested the top and spun out your 55/11, it's a big no.

One MPH is HUGE in a TT, even if it's only for a couple of miles. That's 5 seconds at 40, 8 seconds at 30. Pizza came in second Sunday's TT by .8 seconds. You decide.

Going from 340 watts to 350 watts up hill is worth something like 9 seconds up a 8% hill of 1 mile.

Going from 0 watts to 300 watts down that same hill is worth 8 seconds.

Granted, those numbers are extrapolated from Kreuzotter; but unlike Kreuzotter, they do NOT include an improvement in aerodynamics from going from 120 RPM to 0 RPM, and the presumed better position involved. If you include that effect, you're faster going down the hill without pedaling.

Just like when the pros go down the back side of the mountain...

You decide.

Most TT's don't have 8% grades -- you want to pedal both ways. Yes, you go harder up a hill, but you should be pushing something down the hill. If you're aiming for a 320W TT, go 330 up and 310 down. Something like that.


Going from 340 watts to 350 watts up hill is worth something like 9 seconds up a 8% hill of 1 mile.

Going from 0 watts to 300 watts down that same hill is worth 8 seconds.

Granted, those numbers are extrapolated from Kreuzotter; but unlike Kreuzotter, they do NOT include an improvement in aerodynamics from going from 120 RPM to 0 RPM, and the presumed better position involved. If you include that effect, you're faster going down the hill without pedaling.

>> Kreuzotter<<

This sounds like you got it from a Simpsons episode.

About 3 miles from the end it becomes a very fast course into a screaming 35mph+ descent to the finish. That's nice to look forward to.

All TTs should end in with a downhill, at least slightly downhill section for the last mile or two. It should be in the rule books somewhere.:D

My TT this weekend in a tri I'm doing climbs for the last 2.5 miles, that just ain't right, so just about the point my heart is about to explode, hey now would be a great time to get off my bike and go for a run....

While I have procured a goofy looking LG aero helmet, the skinsuit was a non-starter for me. Wearing the one my LBS ordered for me was like a full-body turniquet. Not a chance. Maybe I have to try the next size up. Of course the lack of pockets sucks - I'll have to find one with a zip up rear pocket. I figure the helmet and wheels might save me a minute in a 40 min. TT. The skinsuit might be worth 15 seconds.

Talk to me after that 15 secs. keeps me out of the top ten at a future TT.

Why do you want pockets on your skinsuit? That kind of defeats the purpose.

Most TT's don't have 8% grades -- you want to pedal both ways. Yes, you go harder up a hill, but you should be pushing something down the hill. If you're aiming for a 320W TT, go 330 up and 310 down. Something like that.

I concur, but from the description - spinning out at 40 MPH - I assumed a grade.

And if you're aiming for a 320 W TT, I think the numbers should have a much greater discrepancy between the uphill and the downhill, assuming the downhill is such that you can spin it out.

Why do you want pockets on your skinsuit? That kind of defeats the purpose.

Really, does a skinsuit serve any purpose unless you're so friggin fast that you're worried about losing the TT by 10 seconds? What's the aero advantage of a skinsuit vs. regular tight fitting lycra bibs/jerseys? Somebody in this weenie convention MUST have that data, complete with charts, graphs and 3D modeling studies. It would have to be fairly insignificant compared to the aero gear I already do have - aero wheels (Zipp 404s) and a LG TT helmet. Important to competitive riders of course, but maybe not for a guy like me who's goal is to move up into the top half of the results.

Why do I want a small pocket in my skinsuit? So I don't have to leave my car key under a rock, that's why.

If I'm wrong about this I promise to revist the skinsuit issue. I'm telling you the one (size Large) I tried on in the bike shop was like a Full Body Turniquet. Forget that. Large jerseys and bibs fit me very well. They must design aero suits for guys who weigh 150lbs. I'm more like 170. Are you kidding? I could barely get the stupid thing on. If I gained 5lbs, I'd never wear it again. The most amazingly uncomfortable piece of clothing since the hair shirt. At any rate, based on that fitting, I'd have to try an XL (at least in that particular brand).

Come'on PD,
Ya' gotta be havin' some "fun" now,eh?

What's the aero advantage of a skinsuit vs. regular tight fitting lycra bibs/jerseys? Somebody in this weenie convention MUST have that data, complete with charts, graphs and 3D modeling studies. It would have to be fairly insignificant compared to the aero gear I already do have - aero wheels (Zipp 404s) and a LG TT helmet. Important to competitive riders of course, but maybe not for a guy like me who's goal is to move up into the top half of the results.


http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?p=4498806#post4498806 says ten watts.

Lucky you, you have me to do the legwork for yah :rolleyes:.

http://www.socalttseries.com/Training/Articles/AerodynamicsforTimeTrial/tabid/217/Default.aspx

The figure i've always heard is 10-15W saved by wearing a skinsuit. In my mind, there's no point wearing the LG helmet if you don't have a skinsuit (OK, there is...but whatever). You're not in it that long, and it doesn't feel so much like a tourniquet when you're riding in your aero position, because it's not as stretched as when you're standing up trying it on.


Really, does a skinsuit serve any purpose unless you're so friggin fast that you're worried about losing the TT by 10 seconds? What's the aero advantage of a skinsuit vs. regular tight fitting lycra bibs/jerseys? Somebody in this weenie convention MUST have that data, complete with charts, graphs and 3D modeling studies. It would have to be fairly insignificant compared to the aero gear I already do have - aero wheels (Zipp 404s) and a LG TT helmet. Important to competitive riders of course, but maybe not for a guy like me who's goal is to move up into the top half of the results.

Why do I want a small pocket in my skinsuit? So I don't have to leave my car key under a rock, that's why.

If I'm wrong about this I promise to revist the skinsuit issue. I'm telling you the one (size Large) I tried on in the bike shop was like a Full Body Turniquet. Forget that. Large jerseys and bibs fit me very well. They must design aero suits for guys who weigh 150lbs. I'm more like 170. Are you kidding? I could barely get the stupid thing on. If I gained 5lbs, I'd never wear it again. The most amazingly uncomfortable piece of clothing since the hair shirt. At any rate, based on that fitting, I'd have to try an XL (at least in that particular brand).

The LG helmet is so friggin ******** looking (I look like some bad version of George Jetson with it) that I had to debate long and hard about even procuring it. In the end, anyone who looks like this:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y117/patentcad/Daddy-bigheadcopy.jpg

is going nowhere fast in the Good Lookin' Contest, so I figured what the F.

OK, OK, I'll reconsider the skinsuit. You guys are turning me into a TT Weenie Deluxe.

I hear you, Pcad, I look like an idiot in my aero helmet, too. Insert joke here.


Out of curiousity, what type of car do you drive?

good job, baby steps is always good.



( will you ever stop referring to yourself in the third person allready?????????)

The LG helmet is so friggin ******** looking (I look like some bad version of George Jetson with it) that I had to debate long and hard about even procuring it. In the end, anyone who looks like this:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y117/patentcad/Daddy-bigheadcopy.jpg

is going nowhere fast in the Good Lookin' Contest, so I figured what the F.

OK, OK, I'll reconsider the skinsuit. You guys are turning me into a TT Weenie Deluxe.

Hey, he didn't refer to himself as Pcad once in this post.

Niiiice.

I look like an idiot with or without an aero helmet.

We have two Acuras: 2004 TL (with Navigation, auto trans), 2007 RDX (no Navigation), love the cars, I drive the RDX, handed off the TL (my former car) to Mrs. PCad. And my motorcycle of course, a 2004 Honda ST1300A. Very similar to the bikes you see escorting the Tour de France (those are almost all Kawasakis).

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y117/patentcad/ST1300-1.gif

*confused*

Unless you've just totally dumped your ***** on a long climb, crested the top and spun out your 55/11, it's a big no.

One MPH is HUGE in a TT, even if it's only for a couple of miles. That's 5 seconds at 40, 8 seconds at 30. Pizza came in second Sunday's TT by .8 seconds. You decide.

Plus there's a carryover onto the parts of the course where you begin to slow.

If you're not putting out watts throughout, you're losing time.

Agreed. And it makes more of a difference the higher the speed. With 2 mph difference in speed at 40-42 mph you are gaining 4 times the distance that you would with a speed difference of 2 mph at 10-12 mph.

The rule is, go as fast as you can in the fastest sections.

The rule is, go as fast as you can in the fastest sections.

At least we have that cleared up. In that case I'll need a 65 tooth front chainring for that course, my Slice needs ABS brakes, and to be really safe I'll need a full face motorcycle helmet.

http://www.moto-net.com/images/jpms2004/gpa_reevu09.jpg

Just like when the pros go down the back side of the mountain...

You decide.

Let's ask that pro. Paolo, what say you?

He says to pedal as much as possible, even downhill. Even though he just came over one of the toughest passes in the Giro. Seemed to work for him.

I've done quite a few hilly TT's at this point, and usually do pretty well, even winning one from time to time. I've looked at enough power files from these TT's to come to this conclusion:

If you go up the hill so hard that you need to recover, you've chucked away a big bucket of time.

And your numbers are fudged. Try 340 up AND down instead of 350 up and 300 down. And you'll need to account for the additional momentum carrying through also.

Plus the match burned at 350 can carry through the rest of the TT, so drop the rest of the TT's watts. And it's not a 1:1 relationship for recovery, go out and do a hard 30 second sprint uphill and see if you can repeat it in another 30 seconds.

I'll take the advice of a former teammate whose wearing one of those flag jerseys...sit on your number, up down, and all around.

I was asking about the vehicles because some vehicle manufacturers offer add-on keyless entry pads.

Like this one...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-OE-FORD-KEYLESS-ENTRY-DOOR-KEY-PAD-AVIATOR-MONTEREY_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33723QQihZ015QQitemZ250153267684QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

Agreed. And it makes more of a difference the higher the speed. With 2 mph difference in speed at 40-42 mph you are gaining 4 times the distance that you would with a speed difference of 2 mph at 10-12 mph.

The rule is, go as fast as you can in the fastest sections.

No, that's wrong. If you, say, have a fixed time, the distance difference from 42 to 40 is the same (not four times higher) as 12 to 10.

If you have a fixed distance (like a TT), of say, one mile, the difference between 10 and 12 MPH is sixty seconds (or 350 yards), and the difference between 42 and 40 is less than five seconds (or 88 yards).

And this doesn't even get into the fact that the power required for those two MPH is going to be way above the OP's (and my own) threshold power, and is going to speed him up on the downhill, where it matters least, at the expense of the uphill, where it matters most.

Agreed. And it makes more of a difference the higher the speed. With 2 mph difference in speed at 40-42 mph you are gaining 4 times the distance that you would with a speed difference of 2 mph at 10-12 mph.

The rule is, go as fast as you can in the fastest sections.

Per time.

TT courses are a fixed distance. You gain more time on a fixed distance by gaining 2mph on 10mph than you would at 40mph.

* Good to hear you're opting for a larger chain ring
It's important not only to avoid spinning out, physiological and mechanical efficiency is better at cadences much lower than spinning out and in larger rear cogs (well, avoiding the smaller cogs). Bottom line: You'll be faster with it at speeds below spinning out.

* Are you staying in the aero position at low speeds?
You might hear a lot people say that aerodynamics are only important at high speeds. This is very wrong. Run a real world test staying in the aero position over rolling hills even at slow speeds versus standing up to climb. While standing up to use a different posture can feel better, you can often lose time, much to increased aerodynamic drag at low speeds. Run the models. Kreuzotter shows .3 mph between hands on top in the climbing position and the "triathlon" position. I imagine the real world difference to be slightly greater given that rocking back and forth in the climbing position would increase rolling resistance, especially with tubulars.

And your numbers are fudged. Try 340 up AND down instead of 350 up and 300 down. And you'll need to account for the additional momentum carrying through also.

340 Up/340 Down: 6.94 minutes total
350 Up/300 Down: 6.81 minutes total
360 Up/000 Down: 6.80 minutes total

Presuming that the Uphill is before the downhill, the 360 (or 350) will be favored by momentum. I don't take these numbers as gospel, but it goes to show how much effort on the uphills is worth, when the grade starts getting in the high single digits.

I've actually started writing a little program to use normalized power and optimize power output vs. time. I'd be more than willing (in fact I'd be appreciative for the opportunity) to use it against any profile, provided someone gives me the profile vs. distance in .csv or some similar format. Of course we'd have to make some assumptions about drag, but that could be from power meter data already taken, or from something like Kreuzotter.

The race organizers of the Silvermine TT appear to have no precise idea of how long their course really is. Oh well. Yet another USCF Moment.

340 Up/340 Down: 6.94 minutes total
350 Up/300 Down: 6.81 minutes total
360 Up/000 Down: 6.80 minutes total

Presuming that the Uphill is before the downhill, the 360 (or 350) will be favored by momentum. I don't take these numbers as gospel, but it goes to show how much effort on the uphills is worth, when the grade starts getting in the high single digits.

I've actually started writing a little program to use normalized power and optimize power output vs. time. I'd be more than willing (in fact I'd be appreciative for the opportunity) to use it against any profile, provided someone gives me the profile vs. distance in .csv or some similar format. Of course we'd have to make some assumptions about drag, but that could be from power meter data already taken, or from something like Kreuzotter.

I'm more concerned with physiological losses from going over your CP number for the distance involved.

And it's assuming you can hold that 10 or 20 more watts for the entire climb. If you try to go at 360 and blow 3/4 of the way up, what do the numbers look like then?

It would be interesting to bring those numbers down into something closer to what most BF racers can accomplish...say 270-300 as the parameter vs. Doc's numbers on a bad day.

Problem is looking at this as strictly a physics problem with a bunch of presumptions (weight I'm sure factors in here) vs. a racing question. If you need three minutes to fully recover from that hill effort, that's a significant amount of time, it's going to carry over beyond the downhill in most cases. And the reality is that more than likely you'll see a drop in wattage for the rest of the TT.

Unfortunately, I don't have the files you need, but I have some .wko files with altitude graphs if that would be useful.

You could use the Pcad method: ride as hard as you can for as long as you can. That's if you don't have an SRM (that stands for Seriously Ridiculous Money).

You could use the Pcad method: ride as hard as you can for as long as you can. That's if you don't have an SRM (that stands for Seriously Ridiculous Money).

I have an SRM :)

And I went back and looked at some TT files. After fairly short efforts (15-18 seconds) on rollers at the numbers used in the above example, there was a severe drop in power for over a minute or more, and the lead up average number was never consistently achieved post effort.

Numbers looked like this:

5 minutes before ave watts: 330
18 second effort: 365
2 minutes post effort ave: 289
Best 5 minutes post effort: 319

I had several short poppers like this, this numbers kept sliding down.

I should listen to me more often.

It's kind of a micro example of what we're discussing, I've got to think trying to bump up 30 watts over several minutes is going to have a bad end.

You could use the Pcad method: ride as hard as you can for as long as you can. That's if you don't have an SRM (that stands for Seriously Ridiculous Money).

I have an SRM, and I have no money. I just spend it all on bikes.

F the stupid SRM. This is what Pcad really needs:

http://foreignerinformosa.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/wile_e_coyote.jpg

One of the reasons I feel I do well in TTs is pacing, and what Racer Ex-Vino is saying holds true...once you need to recover, you are screwed. I am not against trying new things, but when I stay within myself and then can blast up to speed on the flats at the top of a hill/roller, that is where I believe I gain time.

Actually, I don't have no money, but anyways...

I went looking back through my power files to try and find an example of going harder up hills than down. I can't find one (at least not that's a good example), because I push a pretty even number going both up and down. You have to build the momentum going downhill, and while I suppose that could happen on a long enough downhill, I've never found one on a TT. You always want to be pushing, in conclusion...

I'm more concerned with physiological losses from going over your CP number for the distance involved.

I've done a fair bit of this stuff over hills of lengths varying from 10 to 90 seconds. After seeing some of the better TT riders in our group (former pros, former world champ) coast some of the downhills, I tried it myself and lo and behold -- a new PR.

I think the trick is to increase your power into the unsustainable range well short of blow up. I personally see any burning sensation as a good indicator that I've cooked myself. I know for others this is something they do all the time.

A lot of the uphill effort depends on the nature of the descent. Is it long and gradual where I can really get my batteries recharged but while still pedaling or is it steep and fast where I can stop pedaling (and take weight off my legs) and try to ride out the coast? And is there another hill right after this?

I'm sold on increasing power up hills and coasting or dropping power on downhills. It works on paper and seems to work in real life. Plus some of our best riders do it.


* One note is that different people have different abilities at recovery. Your mileage may vary.

I subscribe to the 'free speed' theory of riding when solo'ing off the front of a group ride or in a TT. That means that when you crest a hill, there is a tendency to ease up prior to beginning the descent. But an extra effort @ that precise moment gains you a couple of mph at the top of the descent and would make your subsequent speeds faster @ every suceeding point of the downhill run. So that's how I ride in those situations. I don't want to forgoe free speed opportunties provided by gravity.

That my little weenies is what is typically called 'common sense' and it does not require an SRM, a cycling coach, or Mr. Brunyeel screaming 'VENGA VENGA' in your earbud.

I subscribe to the 'free speed' theory of riding when solo'ing off the front of a group ride or in a TT. That means that when you crest a hill, there is a tendency to ease up prior to beginning the descent. But an extra effort @ that precise moment gains you a couple of mph at the top of the descent and would make your subsequent speeds faster @ every suceeding point of the downhill run. So that's how I ride in those situations. I don't want to forgoe free speed opportunties provided by gravity.

That my little weenies is what is typically called 'common sense' and it does not require an SRM, a cycling coach, or Mr. Brunyeel screaming 'VENGA VENGA' in your earbud.

Do you have a recording? I'd love to remix that into my TTunes.

I subscribe to the 'free speed' theory of riding when solo'ing off the front of a group ride or in a TT. That means that when you crest a hill, there is a tendency to ease up prior to beginning the descent.

Which is where you should be attacking like a mother :)