Mountain Biking - 29er's - Who is driving this trend?

This is a carry over from another thread that I hijacked with this discussion. To sum up:

I don't want to focus on whether the 29er is cool, or a good idea or on the ride of the bike. I am wondering who is driving this fad. Is it being driven by the marketing guys at the bike companies in the US or is it a consumer demand thing. I would really like to hear from shop staff about the end-user feedback they are getting on these bikes and all the products surrounding them.

I am wondering who is driving this fad.

willtsmith_nwi is.

What is thei 29er you speak of?

http://www.nsw.yachting.org.au/?Page=5346&MenuID=Youth%2F1060%2F3659%2CYouth_Class_Profiles%2F10423%2F4706 (29er Class Profile)



The 29er is a true one design, high performance dinghy. The boat is exciting and great fun to sail. The class is the fastest growing in the world as young sailors choose it for the combination of high thrill sailing and truly equal boats and equipment. The 29er is recognised by ISAF as an International Class. With these credentials the 29er offers high class competition locally plus the opportunity for sailors to compete at World Championship level against fleets that are truly international. The 2002 World Championship on Sydney Harbour attracted a fleet of 103 baots from 5 Continents and 13 countries. Australia already had a fine record in the 29er, with the current open, youth male and youth female World Champions.


hmmm, I think i've got the wrong 29er

I am wondering who is driving this fad. Is it being driven by the marketing guys at the bike companies in the US or is it a consumer demand thing. I would really like to hear from shop staff about the end-user feedback they are getting on these bikes and all the products surrounding them.

Well, if it is in fact, simply a fad.

I think it is as much the industry as it is the consumer demand. They have to come up with a new gimmick once in a while to keep the customers spending money right? Forks, disc brakes, rear suspension, etc. all came about this way. Any actually performance advantages is a secondary side affect :rolleyes:

A secret bid by a splinter group of cyclocross riders to get you all on cross bikes.


The next "innovations" we feed you will be drop bars and skinnier tires.

I am not a bike shop guy, but I do have a 29er.

I was looking for a new MTB and tried the GF Cobia. I liked it and decided that it would be fun to have something different and new. So here I am a year later and I don't regret the decision. I think it is just the newest thing, and some people LOVE them, others don't care. If you have people liking them and buying them, then there is your driving force. Demand is there because of the "buzz" about the different way they ride, and people naturally want to try it out. Kinda like Full suspension, many years back. You know there are still people out there that don't like full suspension, or any suspension. That is why there are hardtails and rigid forks still being made and bought.

-Kurt

Ride a 29er... You'll like it. 29" > 26". 29er big, yeah yeah yeah. It's not small, no no no. Gabba gabba-hey. I'm such a purist, I still ride one of these:

http://www.pedalinghistory.com/Images/Draisine.gif

Seriously. I don't think it's a fad, just another option. A damn fine one at that IMO.

Well, if it is in fact, simply a fad.

I think it is as much the industry as it is the consumer demand. They have to come up with a new gimmick once in a while to keep the customers spending money right? Forks, disc brakes, rear suspension, etc. all came about this way. Any actually performance advantages is a secondary side affect :rolleyes:

The problem with this is that there are only a few bike companies that are pushing this. Tire makers don't want to make a separate designation for the same 700c (622) tires. I'm sure dealers don't want to have to stock even more tires just because it says 29 inch on the side. Component makers are being forced to come up with products that will differenciate the 29er from a 26"MTB. Based on the fact that 29er sales are minute in the grand scheme of bike sales yet these companies are being forced to to risks in a flat MTB market, who is benefiting?

As to whether it is a fad or not, if sales don't pick up significantly, if they don't become totally mainstream, they will be left to the niche market frame builders.

I would like to hear from some industry folks about their experience on the sales floor.

I am driving the fad

Our shop is in a rural area, so folks around here don't buy as much for fashion as for function. We don't have hipsters that other people try to emulate, so things like fixies, singlespeeds, cross bikes and 29ers are a pretty rare request...other than from the urban tourists that just can't believe we didn't drink the kool-aid and stock the store with the exact parts they wanted to buy on clearance. Yes, we do have several customers riding 29ers, as does the shop owner, and so did I...until I found I didn't care for my Supercaliber (flexy noodle) and sold it to another lighter guy that just loves it.

Of the very few 29ers we've sold out of the shop, the majority were due to ride quality, not by magazine-driven hype, not by peer pressure, not by racing results...just the customer's impression after riding one. For a niche few, the big hoops are a solution to either their real or perceived needs...and who are we to say they're wrong?

As a tallish guy, I happen to be one of those riders. As soon as I can afford another mountain bike, it'll be a 29er. Right now I'm just waiting to see what the new Specialized bikes will ride like. If I like what I see, it may very well be my own enthusiasm driving the 29er "fad"...at least locally. ;)

It's not a fad. I feel much more comfortable and stable on a 29er. So much so, that I am in the process of getting rid of my 26" bikes. Well, I'll keep one or two (heavily customized singlespeeds).

No changes to any of the 26" MTN bikes had yielded such a dramatic improvement in ride quality, as going to a 29er. I hope the trend grows and the choice of fat 700c tires increases. 622-60 ain't enough for me, the fatter the better.

This is a carry over from another thread that I hijacked with this discussion. To sum up:
I don't want to focus on whether the 29er is cool, or a good idea or on the ride of the bike. I am wondering who is driving this fad. Is it being driven by the marketing guys at the bike companies in the US or is it a consumer demand thing. I would really like to hear from shop staff about the end-user feedback they are getting on these bikes and all the products surrounding them.

Thats too bad, because it is the crux of the issue.

Seems to me that one big advantage of the 26" is lower center-of-mass.

Yes/no?

I'm sure dealers don't want to have to stock even more tires just because it says 29 inch on the side.

Component makers are being forced to come up with products that will differenciate the 29er from a 26"MTB.

But they are willing to stock a bunch of road/bmx/kids/hybrid/cross/26"mtb/recumbent tires????

What components are sooooo different? The wheels/tires and forks are about the only really big changes. Of course the frame is different, but big deal. There are hundreds of different 26" frames out there, why not some new bigger wheeled versions.



I am sure people had this discussion about MTB's in general when they first came on the scene.... "why are all the bike path riding yuppies buying mtb's?" "why do you need a mtb? you live in town."

-Kurt

The problem with this is that there are only a few bike companies that are pushing this.

Depends what you mean by pushing. If you mean actively promoting it and trying to get people to switch, you're probably talking about Gary Fisher, WTB, Niner and a handful of small frame builders.

If you're talking about peddling (no pun intended), you're talking about pretty much everybody.





[QUOTE=Bob Dopolina;5070247]

Tire makers don't want to make a separate designation for the same 700c (622) tires. I'm sure dealers don't want to have to stock even more tires just because it says 29 inch on the side.

The do quite readily. It means more sales.



Component makers are being forced to come up with products that will differenciate the 29er from a 26"MTB. Based on the fact that 29er sales are minute in the grand scheme of bike sales yet these companies are being forced to to risks in a flat MTB market, who is benefiting?


Exactly WHO is forcing a component manufacturer to do anything. Is there some law I'm unaware of that compels a tire maker to make 29er tires? BTW, the "special" components in question are: rims, forks, tubes and tires. That's it!!!!

I don't think this is a fad. Fads come in fast and go out fast. 29ers have been a steadily growing movement for quite some time. It has gotten to the point where it's easier to talk about the companies that are NOT making 29ers then the companies that do.


,
As to whether it is a fad or not, if sales don't pick up significantly, if they don't become totally mainstream, they will be left to the niche market frame builders.

I would like to hear from some industry folks about their experience on the sales floor.

When short travel suspension frames became efficient, the performance hardtail became extinct. This left a price-point whole on the sales floor. I think that manufacturers have realized that an "exotic" 29er bike can effectively fill that whole. The reason that stock 29ers are expensive is NOT inherent to the size of the wheels. They are expensive because manufacturers put higher end components on then and deliberately market them as "premium" items (rightfully so in my opinion).

The other genre that the 29er has filled is the "back to basics" singlespeed. The larger wheels allow one to roll on rougher train without suspension. A 29er singlespeed is relatively cheap and makes a great addition to the "stable".

Given that the 29er models just keep increasing, I think you can officially put a fork in this "fad" argument. They're here to stay and if you ask me they're likely to eventually take over the XC market as quality bike companies are eager to distinguish themselves from the crap sold at Wal-Mart. A different wheel standard is an ideal way.

29ers are now starting to creep their way into Downhill. I believe once some higher spoke count wheelset are available there, you'll see 29ers take over Downhill as well.

This is a carry over from another thread that I hijacked with this discussion. To sum up:

I don't want to focus on whether the 29er is cool, or a good idea or on the ride of the bike. I am wondering who is driving this fad. Is it being driven by the marketing guys at the bike companies in the US or is it a consumer demand thing. I would really like to hear from shop staff about the end-user feedback they are getting on these bikes and all the products surrounding them.
Not a fad and the 29er trend is being driven by hard-core riders/users. They have been around (with "The Tire") for ~8 years, longer with narrower tires. Have gone mainstream in the last 2-3 years.

Seems to me that one big advantage of the 26" is lower center-of-mass.

Yes/no?

The Fisher frames, anyway, keep the same approx. bb height as a typical 26er, so they're designed to keep the rider's weight, relative to the axles, as low as possible. Fisher's also use long top tubes/short stems to keep the rider weight behind the front axle as much as possible. The result is a more stable bike than a typical 26" XC mountain bike.

Look at the road bike market where people have been riding 700mm tires forever and a day now. There is no movement in the road-bike market to go to a smaller diameter tire. People riding long distances (e.g. on roads) over relatively even ground (roads again) have clearly settled upon the larger tire size. That's true in the road-bike market; I believe the same will happen in in the cross-country, mountain-bike market. What's good for the road rider is good for the trail rider. Freeride and downhill I'm not so sure of yet, but I truly believe that the larger tire size will eventually dominate in the cross-country market.

26-inch tires will probably never go away, because of the need to accommodate smaller riders, teenagers, kids, etc. Years ago, when I was a kid, bikes were sized solely by their tire size. You moved up from 12 to 16 to 24 to 26 inch tires as you grew. Then we got into making different frame sizes for different size people. We'll still need different frame sizes, but I foresee a day when people worry about getting the correct combination of frame size and tire size. 29ers will dominate. 26ers will hopefully get a bit more attention than 24ers do today.

Perhaps you could argue that we really need a rim size for mountain bikes that gets us to the same 700mm tire size that road riders. I don't see that happening though, not in a big way. The 29 inch size has become ensconced, and there's too much efficiency to be had from usig one size rim in all cases. So my prediction remains that 29ers will come to dominate the cross country mountain bike market.

Perhaps you could argue that we really need a rim size for mountain bikes that gets us to the same 700mm tire size that road riders. I don't see that happening though, not in a big way. The 29 inch size has become ensconced, and there's too much efficiency to be had from usig one size rim in all cases. So my prediction remains that 29ers will come to dominate the cross country mountain bike market.

29er rims ARE the same size as 700 rims.

And I think you're on crack to make such a prediction...but what do I care...cross country is gay and I ride all mountain :rolleyes:

. What's good for the road rider is good for the trail rider. Freeride and downhill I'm not so sure of yet, but I truly believe that the larger tire size will eventually dominate in the cross-country market.

Awesome!:D

A 700c road tire and a 26" mountain tire are pretty close to the same outside diameter. I've always been under the impression that that's why they went for that size in the first place (don't quote me on that - just always seemed logical). A road tire is something in the neighborhood of 31" OD, while a 29" mountain bike tire is what......33" or 34" OD?

Myself, I see more value in the 69er-like approach, at least for DH . . . except I am more intrigued with a 650B front now:

http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/pacenti-introducing-650b-mtb-tires-11794

Diameters;

'road tire' 700x23 = 26.6''

26'' x2.25 mountain tire = 26.3'' (hence the term 26'')

29'' x 2.3 mountain tire = 29.5 (hence the term 29er)

Seems to me that one big advantage of the 26" is lower center-of-mass.

Yes/no?

Perhaps. But what I see as an advantage of 26" wheels is they are much stronger than 700c.

Try that again - 26 x 2.25 means the tire is 2.25 inches wide and fits on a 26" diameter rim. Assuming the tire is roughly circular in cross section, that means it is roughly 2.25" tall. Take that times 2, since it sticks out on both sides, so 26 + 2.25 + 2.25 = 30.5". Doing the same for 29 x 2.3 = 29 + 2.3 + 2.3 = 33.6"

A typical road bike tire is something a bit less that 1" wide (like 21mm or 23mm) but being charitable 29 + 1 + 1 = 31"

yo b1tch! don't dis my maths'

A traditional mountain bike rim diameter isn't 26'' you dumbass. the tire is. the rim is 559mm (22'') diameter

same thing with a 29er. The rim is 622mm (24.5'') diameter.

Go Here (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tire-sizing.html) and then come back and have an informed discussion if you will.

Otherwise, please stop typing incorrect information

edit: I see you deleted your post. Luckily I had already snipped it.

The rim is 622mm (24.5'') diameter.Actually it's 24.488188"

Actually it's 24.488188"

Thank you for the correction. :p

that 650b stuff is interesting

edit: I see you deleted your post. Luckily I had already snipped it.

Doh!

I'm through screwin' around - I'm going for a 63er

http://www.clemson.edu/caah/history/FacultyPages/PamMack/lec122sts/hist5big.jpg

Actually it's 24.488188"

Actually, if you want to get right down to it, 24.5" is correct. :)

Here's why (http://chemed.chem.purdue.edu/genchem/topicreview/bp/ch1/sigfigs.html)

Actually, if you want to get right down to it, 24.5" is correct. :)

Here's why (http://chemed.chem.purdue.edu/genchem/topicreview/bp/ch1/sigfigs.html)

You are such a nerd.

I am wondering who is driving this fad.

Bespectacled, broad-shouldered white men, staring out of dark corners, grinning maniacally as they watch you rack your brains over a pretty self-evident question.

The people who are buying the bikes are driving the fad. And who's calling it a fad, by the way? 29er downhill bikes are next.

So "screwin' around" is the latest euphemism for "I don't have a clue but I'm going to post advice, authoritatively, regardless."

I will add that one to the database.


ooohh.....gee I wish I was so witty and smart like you! :rolleyes: LOL.

You are such a nerd.

Professional nerd in this case.

Now don't you have a spreadsheet forum to go moderate?

LOL, whatever Barney.

"A key product release, the first true 29er tire, was produced by an early supporter of the 29er movement Wilderness Trail Bikes. The company introduced the first true 29er tire, the Nanoraptor, in 1999. At about the same time, White Brothers produced the first commercially available 29er suspension forks. Before then suspension forks used were forks designed for trekking bikes or hybrids. For many years 29er frames and bikes were usually only available from small little known manufactures like Niner Bikes. Gary Fisher Bicycles, a division of Trek Bicycles, became the first of the major manufactures to offer a line of 29er bikes. Their lines never sold well until the introduction of single-speed 29er bike the Rig, in 2004. Today nearly every large, medium and small bicycle manufacture in the US market offers at least one 29er bicycle or frame. Even companies that openly dismissed 29ers as a bad idea or passing trend, Specialized and Turner, are bringing 29ers to market." (source: wikipedia)

So Wilderness Trail Bikes along with White Brothers drove the trend. Later on, Gary Fisher, a division of Trek Bicycles, picked up the design and began production of the 29er. Once a single-speed version of the 29er caught on with consumers, other manufacturers began to catch on although many companies had already dismissed the 29er as a bad idea previously. Companies began to compete, and popularity of the 29er began to rise...as is natural for a market economy.

So Capitalism has driven the 29er, companies said it was a bad idea as Wilderness Trail Bikes and White brothers drove the trend.. Trek then filled up the 'gas tank' so to speak .. companies began to produce the 29er simply to compete with one another... hoping to get an early start on a trend that quite possibly is here to stay.

Good stuff.

Professional nerd in this case.

Now don't you have a spreadsheet forum to go moderate?Easy there . . . isn't yours the profession that has someone they actually call a 'rod man?' :lol:

Actually, if you want to get right down to it, 24.5" is correct. :)

Here's why (http://chemed.chem.purdue.edu/genchem/topicreview/bp/ch1/sigfigs.html)

or you can look up on wikipedia how .999 = 1

I've only ridden one 29" bike -- a Cannondale Caffeine -- and I really liked it. I was surprised by how different it felt.

The bigger wheel has some merit when it comes to bigger/taller riders, IMO. Unlike a car and its driver driver, a cyclist's mass and the wheels themselves are hugely important factors in the total human-plus-vehicle package. Small kids need small bikes, average-sized riders need bigger bikes; it makes sense that even bigger riders can do well with larger bikes and wheels.

I don't think it's much of a fad, and I don't think that it's necessarily being "pushed" by any single or group of companies. It takes investment & resources for a company to bring new stuff to market and not go bankrupt, so when there are enough manufacturers, sellers, and buyers to adopt it & make it viable, I think it's more of a sign that the bike market is very healthy. Riders won't buy what they don't like, after all.

Professional nerd in this case.

Now don't you have a spreadsheet forum to go moderate?

Professional nerd? http://www.msnemotions.org/emoticons/remix/NerdSmiley.jpg
Pretend those zits are a beard and we have a perfect likeness.

Edit: I just remembered that I've listed 'professional nerd' as my occupation on various forums. Oh well.

29er rims ARE the same size as 700 rims.

I realize that the rims are the same. What I was getting at was that the tire diameters are different, because mountain bike tires tend to have a higher profile than road bike tires. I bet I could lose at least an inch in overall diameter just by mounting a road tire to my 29er rim.

Soon we'll be having 36ers. :)

^^Now yer talkin'
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t162/dminorwa/bigbike.jpg

I realize that the rims are the same. What I was getting at was that the tire diameters are different, because mountain bike tires tend to have a higher profile than road bike tires. I bet I could lose at least an inch in overall diameter just by mounting a road tire to my 29er rim.


Well then that's a really dumb statement. Who cares if the overall tire diameter is exactly the same? It's not even the same within a given sizing of tires or within brands and will vary depending on the width of the rim the tire is mounted on.

forget math you can push both with your pinky.. so by the transitive propery of pinkys they are equal.

Thats too bad, because it is the crux of the issue.

From a consumer standpoint, yes it is. From an industry standpoint, only slightly. It is about SALES.

But they are willing to stock a bunch of road/bmx/kids/hybrid/cross/26"mtb/recumbent tires????

What components are sooooo different? The wheels/tires and forks are about the only really big changes. Of course the frame is different, but big deal. There are hundreds of different 26" frames out there, why not some new bigger wheeled versions.

My point is that the different components don't exist yet. Manufactures are feeling the pressure to develop some. anything that will make a 29er stand out.

What products, outside of tires and forks, do you base your opinion upon?

It's not an opinion. I work in the industry in Taiwan and talk to Product Managers and factory managers all the time. The bike companies are pushing the component makers and tire makes to develop and produce new 29er specific products (or at least stuff that is designated 29er specific).

As to whether they are here to stay or not, that remains to be seen,. MTB sales, generally are still stagnant and 29er sales are still a blip in terms of dollars (it is increasing but is it enough?). Remember the hardtail? Once the ONLY kind of MTB, now reduced to the ugly step-child for high end.

As to dealers carrying the same tire with 2 different hot patches (the labels on the tire) it doesn't mean increased sales. It means increased inventory and the same sales. "Do you want to buy this 47-622 tire that says 29er on it or this 47-622 tire that doesn't?"

Look at the confusion we see already about which tires will work on a 29er rim on a forum where people already have experience! Can you imagine what is going to happen with new or less experienced riders? How come my LBS is trying to sell me a road bike tire for commuting when I have a 29er? Those b#@^*@s are trying to rip me off! They don't know what they're talking about!" And on and on.

As to when and where the first "29er" was introduced? Europeans have been using 622 touring, commuter bikes for ever (maybe not the XC incarnation) and just don't get the buzz over this. It really is a US driven thing (although they are available elsewhere).

[QUOTE=Curt Kurt;5074966]The rim is 622mm (24.5'') diameter. /QUOTE]

Actually the BEAD SEAT dia. is 621.95 +/- 0.5 according to ETRTO. The RIM dia will vary based on the wall height (This also has a tolerance but I won't bore you with that).

The tire casing designation ( xx-622 or xx-559) isn't about height (that'd be profile), it's about the overall casing size and, depending on things like construction and tread design, tire profile, and thereby the overall circumference (or diameter - take your pick) of the wheel, can vary greatly.

And who's calling it a fad, by the way? 29er downhill bikes are next.

It isn't a fad, but it isn't for everyone. The ones I have tried just felt a bit cumbersome to me.

Again, what 29er specific products, outside of tires and forks, are bike companies pushing for?

I'm sorry, I can't answer that question with anything specific. It would be a very bad thing for me.