Clydesdales/Athenas (200+ lb / 91+ kg) - Vegan Overnight?

The only thing I'd mention is that too much processed soy can lead to male estrogen issues from too much plant estrogen being ingested.

EDIT: Fixed my sloppy typing

Soy has other issues as well. The most unpleasant is the fact it's a bean product.

So you take one counter example to the THOUSANDS (if not millions) of examples used for the research. If you are a Clyde and "want" to lose weight, I think looking into nutrition would behoove you. I'm not even saying to "buy" this hook, line and sinker. But I strongly suggest if you want to research nutrition, to include this in your research. You should make up your own mind on what you believe, but make up your mind on evidence, not one simple example.

How does expressing a liking for meat in one's diet imply a person isn't interested in nutrition?

If you want great tips for vegan and/or "Eat To Live" lifestyle, pay the small fee for membership on his website and get on the "Eat To Live" forums. With membership you have access to tons of recipes and support from members (who are also constantly spouting recipes). At some point a vita-mix (or blend-tec) blender will be a must too.

Thanks for the tip about the book. I will look for it.

I will admit that I'm not really a Clyde (I'm somewhere around 185-190 lbs but only 5'6"), but I'm sure I was at the beginning of June when I decided:

1. Bike at least 3x a week.
2. No meat for the summer, as a start. Vegetables or fruit at every meal, limit the empty carbs, and just be conscious of what I'm eating. I still eat dairy, mostly cheese, rarely eggs.

My guess -- and it's just a guess, since I was afraid to weigh myself at the start of the year -- is that I've lost about 20-25 lbs, and taken two inches off my waistline since June 1st. Is it the meat thing or the biking thing? Surely it's both. My average biking week is 70 miles over rolling hills, and my average meal is a big salad with whatever is fresh at the Greenmarket. It's super-easy in the summer to be healthy both from an exercise and a diet perspective. The trick is going to be what to do in the winter, when biking is less common and the veggies are coming from Peru instead of the local farmer.

Ok, so many places to start with that one...

First, You have no clue what you're talking about in relation to this book. You obviously haven't read it, yet you feel that you are absolutely qualified to judge it.

We can break down a lot of plants just fine. Thats why our feces contains corn after we eat it, but not lettuce, broccoli, spinach, sprouts...etc. We can break down some plant cells, and not others. Some nutrients, vitamin C, for example, is better absorbed from blanched veggies. Others, like betacaratene are more easily extracted from raw veggies.

Second, had you actually looked at the book, you would find that he recommends vegetables be taken half and half. Half cooked, Half uncooked. About a lb of each every day if possible.

Also, had you read the book, you would have noticed no less than 22 pages of sources. Every claim he makes, he backs with a third party source. He makes no scientific claims of his own. He simply brings a few decades of studies together in one source.

As for your "natural" rant. Most veggies are perfectly natural. Are they bigger/better than the plants in the wild? Yes. Why are they? Some mad scientist? Some crazy voodoo magic? Nope. Just plain selection. Over the years, through farming, weak yielding plants are taken out of the batch before they can pollinate or otherwise reproduce. Its like a very fast evolution. Through human selection, we weed out bad qualities and encourage good ones. Hell, we wouldn't be able to eat most vegetables around if it weren't for this. The American Indians figured out how to not only grow an edible corn, but figured out how to get the husk on it. Corn didn't originally have that. Europeans found that by growing potatoes in soil rich in certain minerals, they could make them edible. Thats not really "unnatural". If it is, than Beef and Chicken are unnatural as well, as they wouldn't exist in the US without human intervention.

As for the tinfoil hat... nope. Don't need it. Aside from being a ridiculously stupid comment, its again, unfounded. The nutrition community has been pushing the USDA for years to change the pyramid, its simply not a healthy lesson to be taught. The US-D-A, "D" being "DAIRY" is supported by dairy farmers. It's not a hard line to draw between an entity backed and supported by the Dairy industry giving dairy products the biggest space in that pyramid. Its no different than oil-friendly politicians making deals with oil companies. Its not a conspiracy, its politics and money.

Lastly, and most importantly. You can eat what you want. I've made it clear, as have others in this thread, that there is no diet that fits everyone, and that I am in no way telling anyone that this would be better for them than what they eat. Why is it, then, that you could not return the same courtesy?

I don't wish to argue with someone I've found myself agreeing with recently, but the poster you are responding to can only respond to what you write. He wasn't criticizing the book, as far as I can tell, but the material from the book as presented on Bike Forums.

The tinfoil hat comment doesn't strike me as out of line. I note that you draw a link between the USDA and dairy farmers, and deny a conspiracy, even while you emphasize a conspiracy. The literature of crankery is loaded with conspiracy theories. Many of these oversized tomes - is there ever a SHORT conspiracy book? - have copious footnotes. They also have vigorous, vocal defenders. I am not saying you are a crank, or that the book is crankery. But emphasizing the pages of footnotes reminds me of Oxfordian cranks who use pages of footnotes to "prove" Edward De Vere wrote the Shakespeare canon.

Finally, the act of writing sets one up as an expert and invites comment on the writing - something many folks in the Clyde forum appear to have forgotten lately. If you didn't want to have your decision to adopt a vegan diet reviewed, why did you post in such detail to a discussion board?

Best wishes for your weight loss and lifestyle change,
Neil B.

First off, good job going vegan! I've been vegan on/off (mostly on) for the past two years and have permanently gone "on" since May. Those of you who read my blog also know that in the past 2 weeks I have switched to a 100% raw diet.

Whoever said that a raw diet is not possible because our bodies cannot break down the cells or whatever is full of it and should do some research. Everything I have read on raw veganism has stated that a raw diet is one of the most healthy and most "pure" diets you can stick to. Just do a Google search on "raw vegan" and you will see tons of information on this.

Actually, when it comes to veganism, people need to do research as well. At no point should you ever just take someone's word for it. Google is your friend.

Statistics related rhetorical question: If being a vegan was such a great deal and the answer to so many of life's problems, wouldn't a lot more people be vegan?

Statistics related rhetorical question: If being a vegan was such a great deal and the answer to so many of life's problems, wouldn't a lot more people be vegan?
Not necessarily (I'm not, for example). Individual tastes, as well as other factors guarantee that the whole population won't go Vegan.

Terrier...

For the same reason that smoking, drinking, gambling, drugs, overeating ... etc (all in excess of course) are so prevalent.

For the most part, people are more concerned with what feels good right now, that what -is- good later down the road. "Instant Gratification" as it were.

And vegetarian/vegan probably isnt the best for everyone. Whats best for each person depends on the person. Their tastes, their body, their environment...all play a role in what is the best diet for them..

And vegetarian/vegan probably isnt the best for everyone. Whats best for each person depends on the person. Their tastes, their body, their environment...all play a role in what is the best diet for them..


Precisely.

Not necessarily (I'm not, for example). Individual tastes, as well as other factors guarantee that the whole population won't go Vegan.

I predict there won't ever be a significant portion of the population that is vegetarian, much less vegan. We humans are not evolved that way, and it's hard to fool mother nature.

Do you really want to go your whole life without the soft, gentle long lasting comfort of leather car seats? Or at least the warm caress of genuine sheepskin wool seat covers? Trust me, I've had both cloth and leather car seats and nothing beats leather. It even holds a better resale value.

And those kids you want, do you want your little boy to be the kid who gets made fun of becasue he can't catch a baseball because his daddy would only get him a vinyl baseball mitt - a slippery, sliddy vinyl baseball mitt? Why would you do that to your child you love? Also, if you become a vegan you'll have to look at your kids as just another methane producing meatbag destroying planet green. Do you want to give them that sort of self image?

And I can see wanting to give up burgers and sandwiches, but do you really want to give up that special treat of veal parmesan? Without the veal, its just the parmesan which is still pretty good but NOTHING beats veal as the parmesan carrying agent. Nothing.

Clearly, you have some thinking to do mister. Some serious thinking.

I predict there won't ever be a significant portion of the population that is vegetarian, much less vegan. We humans are not evolved that way, and it's hard to fool mother nature.

I don't know about that, I think humans, like many animals are opportunistic eaters, we eat what we can catch, grow or gather, whether it's animal or vegetable. Now, when you talk about the population, a significant portion of the worlds population are vegan, some for religious reasons, like Hindus, and others because they don't have access to meat and meat products.

Soy has other issues as well. The most unpleasant is the fact it's a bean product.

You have to very careful with soy because it is a big estrogen promoter.. Estrogen in both men and women help your body store body fat..

Oh great! :mad: That explains why I am so "fluffy" I eat lots of Tofu! :(

Nothing I have read about a vegetarian diet = not being 'fluffy'. lol That is probably why there are low fat vegetarian cook books, diets for vegetarians, etc.

I bet one reason the fluffy rate is lower - if it is - is because you probably have to spend more time analyzing what you eat (and that helps in any diet) but it is no guarantee of eating less than you burn.

I predict there won't ever be a significant portion of the population that is vegetarian, much less vegan. We humans are not evolved that way, and it's hard to fool mother nature.

Significant percentages of the population of India are vegetarian, and in Gujarat, where the bulk of the jains live, there is a well-established religion of extremely observant vegans that has existed for 2500 years.

As for a significant percentage of the population being vegetarian and/or vegan: it is difficult for modern people to be either of those things if the local markets don't support it. Vegans of my acquaintance (I am perhaps 99% vegan in diet and less so in other lifestyle choices) talk about the 'hummus belt', outside of which you can't get hummus in the grocery stores, making it difficult to maintain a vegan lifestyle on the go.

That said, a steadily increasing percentage of the American population has gone vegetarian over time, and vegan diets have increased correspondingly. As these changes happen, vegan-friendly foods become easier to find, creating a virtuous circle. In the culturally leading parts of the country, such as the Bay Area and New York, there are large numbers of vegans especially among the young, making it a good cultural prediction that the numbers country-wide are going to increase, especially as environmental responsibility catches on.

As for fooling mother nature: well, I've been vegetarian my whole life, and I'm a healthy 6' 1". When I eliminated cheese from my diet I slimmed from a high of 230 to my present 170-180, which i find easy to maintain with my bike commute and diet of vegetable foods. It takes some learning, but I love the way my body looks and feels, so I'm not likely to give it up any time soon.

To the Original Poster:

I'm a southern boy, extreme south MS, home of the most obese in the country... obese myself. Where a McDonald's and Fried Chicken place sit on every corner.

I had a similar revolution of self a few months back. The book that changed my outlook was The China Study. The book is written by a man who was raised on a dairy farm, and examines disease rates in China. Some parts of China eat a 'Western' diet, while others eat the standard peasant Chinese diet. The disease rates from those different diets is remarkable. It really makes you realize what you're putting in your body and who's paying to put out the nutritional guides that we're supposed to live by in the US. (see the national dairy board and cattleman's ass'n)

So, yes, it is possible for a southerner to go Vegan. Yes, you will get scofferes just as you once were. But, after finding things that you enjoy, you'll like it more and more. It feels cleaner to eat that way.

Now, am I 100% vegan? No. Once or twice a month I'll eat a meat/cheese/milk dish. I'm not a political vegan, I'm a health vegan. I'm not adamant about it. Morningstar Farms makes some EXCELLENT soy corndogs. I think without those, I would have been lost.

Also, nutritional yeast is your friend if you like the taste of cheese.

I am another recent convert. Like others. Not for political reasons but health. My recent tests have shown a number of my nutrients/bits/bobs are all over the map. So, I am giving this a shot. I am finding it is really a mine field of information about what and what not to eat etc etc etc. Does not help my case that I can not even read the nutritional values on things down here in Japan but it does help being in such a fresh vegitable/fruit driven society. All kinds of wonderful veggies to try out.

I quit eating meat. But at the same time I started taking vitamins which I haven't done since I was a kid. Now when i crave meat, I eat "morning star" brand veggie burgers/chicken/bacon. I HATE tofu. But for the most part I feel better and eat PB for my protein. Now I am not a vegan, I drink milk, eat eggs, ect.

But I am done on the meat thing. Mostly I miss fish & poultry but I gave it up for a good reason.

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but vegans get cancer and other diseases and, sadly, vegans die too.

Eat what you will. A lot of people go through the vegan fad at least once in their lifetime.

At least three times per generation dietary books and nutrition theories come into fashion that seem so relevant at the time, later proven mis-guided, but the beat goes on and often the misguided information is dug up, dusted off, and played again.

In the end, though, the healthiest people gravitate toward a well-balanced diet that includes all the food groups, including meat.

Good luck with the vegan thing. I am sure you will find, as I did that meat - and especially beef - is a great source of strength and stamina that just cannot be replicated in a vegetarian diet.

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but vegans get cancer and other diseases and, sadly, vegans die too.

Good luck with the vegan thing. I am sure you will find, as I did that meat - and especially beef - is a great source of strength and stamina that just cannot be replicated in a vegetarian diet.
Wrong about beef not being able to be replicated in a vegetarian diet as all the protein and "strength/stamina properties" are found in many vegetables in much higher doses (and absorbed into the body better).

And as far as vegans getting cancer and other diseases too, that is true. But people who have long-term vegan diets (over 20 or 25 years) have a MUCH reduced percentage of cancer, heart disease, etc....

I just finished reading the book and I am amazed at how it has changed my thinking about food in general.. The thing that amazed me is how much protein is in food you think of as just vegetables.. Tonight I had a bag of Trader Joes edamame and it was 360 calories for the whole bag yet had 30 grams of protein..

I just finished reading the book and I am amazed at how it has changed my thinking about food in general.. The thing that amazed me is how much protein is in food you think of as just vegetables.. Tonight I had a bag of Trader Joes edamame and it was 360 calories for the whole bag yet had 30 grams of protein..

Vegetable proteins are a lot like vegetable calories. Your body does not process them all the same. For example, there are 250 calories in a cup of wheat bran, but your monogastromic (single stomach) human body can only absorb a small portion of that energy.

This is why veganism is so full of mis-information and often dangerous diet plans. You cannot just read the labels and say *oh, 300 mg of protein. That works for me today*

Vegetable proteins are vastly different from animal protein and your body does not accept or process vegetable proteins like meat proteins. Best to leave the veganism to the herbavors.

Mike, you're right, animal and vegetable proteins are very different. Diets containing animal protein (even to a degree much smaller than what you see in typical American diets) lead to an increase in cancer and heart disease. This is probably the best supported claim of any of the original research done in the China Study and in followup studies. Many large primates eat entirely raw vegetarian diets and grow very large and do quite fine, and their physiology is much closer to ours than omnivores like dogs or pigs. You're comparing wheat bran (practically pure cellulose) with other plant foods that our bodies can most definitely digest like fruits and vegetables. They have a lot of fiber (which is good!) but they also have calories from protein, fat, simple and complex carbohydrates.

So yeah, don't take any one person's word for it, do your own reading. I think you will find that in general, there is a LOT of research support for vegetarian diets or diets that are very high in fruits and vegetables to be considerably more healthy than typical American diets, or even typical "healthy" diets.

I think the Eat to Live book is one of the best on the market regarding presenting the research done about the diet-health connection and drawing conclusions that make sense and are not too terribly difficult to live by. I should mention that Dr. Fuhrman does not EVER say one has to go vegan to follow his eating suggestions, merely that you should eat a certain way (which happens to be vegan) 90% of the time, which means if you're going to eat meat (or sweets or high fat food) it should only be 1 out of every 10 meals, so 2 meals a week max. I should note also that the 90% diet he recommends is not vegan for the sake of being vegan, merely that everyone should eat a large amount of green leaf vegetables and large quantities of other fruit and vegetables with some beans for extra calories and protein. I think it's quite a sensible way to eat personally, and you would be hard pressed to find research which says it's unhealthy. Of all the criticisms leveled on the book, that it's secretly vegan propaganda is the most unfair, because it definitely is not, and contains recipes with meat in the back. Unlike, say, the popular diet book "Skinny *****", which doesn't come out and say they want you to convert to veganism until half-way through, and then they are quite shrill about it.

Vegan diets have their own share of problems (and I should know, I spent 3 yrs as a strict vegan, though not a particularly healthful one) and won't necessarily make you lose weight (I managed to maintain a BMI in the obese category the entire time), plus being dogmatic about it can be stressful as well. Eating mostly veggies and fruits is the way to go, and on a personal level, I'm trying to move in that direction. For the record, I'm not even vegetarian right now, so I'm really not trying to push an ideology.

A couple of tips to anyone interested in doing this: Take a B12 supplement, as there is no proven source of B12 in a vegan diet regardless of what you may hear about seaweed and various yeasts. If you don't eat a lot of green leaf veggies you will have issues with calcium and iron, so be sure you eat a lot of those. For other recipes, check out http://www.fatfreevegan.com/etl/index.shtml, they have a LOT of good ones, and http://goneraw.com/ for the raw gourmet side of it.

When I stopped eating meat I noticed an abscene of symptoms, no more headaches, stomach-aches, feeling tired, etc. I am a vegatarian.