Vegan Overnight?

[rjm1982]

So... Heres a puzzling kind of thing.

Before I get into it, a little background. I have always loved meat. Pork, Fish, Beef, Deer and Buffalo. I love all of it. Its great tasting, filling, and otherwise yummy to me. I have eaten like this for my whole life, 25 years. (well, im sure i didnt start on the meat day one..but you know... :) ). I always scoffed at vegetarians/vegans... I was always told that veg-diets were low in protein/vitamins... Thanks (dairy farmer funded-) USDA for you're lovely pyramid of lies.

I'm not one to jump into hardly anything. To change my mind requires A LOT of arguments. I am always willing to see both sides of an issue, but but to get me to change sides requires a good bit of verifiable factual information on the subject. I honestly never even looked into veg-diets because I was always told one thing, and never had a reason to question it. However, as of this moment, I'm done with meat, and animal products in general. I'm not "trying" to avoid these things, I -AM- avoiding them.

Why the revelation? A book. A book recommended here ( thanks KingTermite! ). "Eat to Live" by Dr. Neil Fuhrman. When I read the cover initially, I just put the book back as "just another doctor making money." However, after reading all kinds of reviews online and otherwise, I decided to spend the $14 and check it out. So the first 2 chapters, I'm reading, and I'm skeptical. Having lived in a world where a room full of doctors can't agree on whether or not Milk is bad for me or not, most nutritional science passes through me like a chill. So I keep reading (I'm not even done yet, by the way), and I keep learning. I slowly move from Skeptical to Intrigued. So I start to look up references to his claims. He documents all of his sources. So I go back to look at the sources...he has 22 pages (!!!) of them. Now, he's got my attention. This obviously isn't -his- thoughts, but rather the collective findings of the last few decades of nutritional science, all together in one source. ( if you want a jump start on these ideas, google "the china experiment" )

So basically, after reading what meat products can lead to (or will lead to, its kinda like cigarette and cancer...everyone who smokes WILL get cancer, if they don't die from something else first...same for meat consumption and its problems) I have decided that now is the time to change. At first, I had the "you always fail at this kind of thing, why bother" and the "lets ease into it", and of course the "do I really want to be a vegan?" thoughts. Well, worse case scenario is I do fail, and I only eat healthier for a little bit... well, its still better than not having done it. However, I -know- I can and will do this. Frankly, I'm 25 and single. I want kids. Assuming that I find someone tomorrow, that puts me in my early 30s for having kids. Mid thirties when it comes time to really play with the kids... I want to be there, and be able to do that. Thats a hell of a Drive. (the same drive that got me on a bike)

Im not saying everyone should do this. I'm not trying to be preachy. Frankly, this post is more for me than anyone, since writing down what your doing and making it public is a great motivator. And it's related to the audience here in that we're all looking towards the same general goal. I would suggest, as KingTermite did, that everyone at least check out this book. If you dont want to spend the $14, read the first chapter in the store. Flip back to the references...and look how much real, scientific data went into the writing of that book. Look him up online, you will find tons of people who speak highly of him, who share their stories of being helped by his book or him personally. I am sounding a little preachy, I know... but having your eyes opened to things you've basically been lied to about by your government your whole life is really an experience.

So can a 320lb, southern-raised country boy go vegan and make it work? Yep. And he will.

[Caincando1]

I find myself eating less and less meat now days. I'm not sure if I'll ever cut meat out completely or not.

Keep us posted on how this goes for you.

[Nightcap]

I respect your belief that your wife is beautiful, your children intelligent, your deity compassionate and/or vengeful, and your diet salubrious. However, the scar on my belly prompts me to give one small warning: I went vegetarian once upon a time. With the help of a twenty-mile daily commute via bicycle and a low-fat vegetarian diet, I lost weight quickly. Rapid weight loss causes gall stones, which besides being intensely painful can lead to gall bladder and pancreatic cancers (both of which have really lousy survival odds).

Me, I just lost my gall bladder to emergency surgery (not the neat laparascopic operation, either).

It's perfectly possible to get all of the calories and nutrients you need from vegetable sources, but it's not easy. I recommend you Google for "vegan athlete nutrition" for more information.

Good luck!

[trigger]

I just wrote you a big long detailed reply, and then lost it. arrrg.

The somewhat abbreviated version:

I've been a vegetarian for nine years, and it can be geat. Yes, you will have to be MUCH more mindful of your nutrition, but I think being mindful of what we eat is good on a lot of levels.

I would suggest you do this in two stages -- vegetarian, then vegan. This shift will be hard on you mentally sometimes, and your body will need time to adjust. I'm not vegan becuase I don't want to give up honey and the occasional piece of cheese, but I make sure that these things are hormone free, GMO free, local, and humanely raised. Shopping this way greatly reduces some of the health risks of a "normal" diet (Esp hormones in milk) and is relatively easy to do. If you can't buy from a local farm or farmer's market, many health food stores stock this sort of stuff, and so does Whole Foods.

Remember that you are going to have to read labels like a fiend. Renit (found in procecssed cheese, KD etc), Gelatin (jello, yogurt etc), Fish oil (Asian sauces and many products claiming Omega 3) are all animal byproducts that most vegans exclude from their diet. There are a lot of other things like this. The first ingredient in many canned "vegetable" soups is beef stock. Beef Tallow shows up in the strangest places. Always read the label.

If you can afford it, seek out the advice of a nutritionist or naturopath. Be kind to yourself as you make this lifestyle change, it may be harder than you think at times (ie: BBQ season).

[gobot]

Vegan is a bit silly, unless you marry a vegan chef or something, but vegetarians get along fine in the world. If you ain't a vegan you can supplement your protein w. whey protein which is excellent but has a gross sticky texture if you don't mix it with enough juice.

[rjm1982]

The protein thing... Its a myth about veggie diets though...

Look at the chart below. Thats based on 100 calories worth of each (the idea being nutrient/calorie ratio is more important than volume). And of that, that works out to like 2 cups of broccoli vs 1.2 oz. of the beef. Its true that most vegetables don't have all of the essential chains of proteins we need, but if you mix up your veggies and eat different things, you will get them all. Too much protein (what you would get by adding in alot of supliments) leads to gallstones and intestinal problems. Add in the calorie factor, and the fact that you're eating probably 8 oz. of steak, that means You're taking in 800 calories...a good bit of cholesterol, and no fiber...

Like I said...im not telling people to do it. I obviously am not the person to do so, because im not a doctor, nor have i been doing this long enough to make that call anyways, its experimental for me still. But, the science and common sense is there. I may not end up pure vegan, but if I shoot for vegan and miss my mark, then maybe im still vegetarian...


http://bp3.blogger.com/_imF-SbL3AMY/Rqi4P6Ke4GI/AAAAAAAAACg/9oXq7TE_Q24/s320/Broccoli+Chart.jpg

[bdinger]

I'd suggest first starting vegetarian, as others have noted, then going vegan.

I was essentially vegetarian for some times in 2005 and parts of 2006. And I keep waffling on going back to it. Really I had no issues, aside from the fact that my drastic shift in diet made me intolerant to anything fried :). To this day I can't eat any fried foods in quantity, else I pay for it. YMMV, as I know many vegetarians/vegans who love their fried veggies.

Anyway, I used to love my dinners of salad, soup, and Boca Burgers. They really were great, and a massive blast of protein.

[rjm1982]

Well, my primary reasoning for going all the way is that I want to avoid cheese and milk, and meat. Eggs are somewhat Ok still...and broth... but I'd still like to try it at least...

[gobot]

well, vegans don't consume any animal products ever, and its kind of a ridiculous thing to do unless you have like religious convictions about it-- just dont eat dairy products-- my mom and sister are both lactose intolerant and they cant eat that ****e anyway

[rjm1982]

I certainly have no moral problem with meat. Frankly, to me, livestock is no different than a field of corn...I was raised on a farm. Cows are meat and milk...dogs and cats are pets.

The link of animal products to disease though (long-term... ref: the china experiment) is pretty strong...thats my motivation.

[wagathon]

I experimented around with that years ago, all while seeing if is was possible while getting 70g of protein a day. It's no problem at all if you feel it is permissible to eat eggs and eat milk products like cheese and yogurt (i.e., a "lacto-ovo vegetarian).

Going total vegie means beans and rice (although a good batch of slow-cooked pinto beans is a perfect food, rice is needed as well for a complete protein --and -- a batch of pinto beans benefit greatly with the addition of a little butter). I've never been a fan of soy bean curd but without eggs and milk products, you probably need that in your diet.

Other food items to consider but probably not too hard if you go the lacto-ovo route are brewers (or tortula) yeast and ... sardines ... which brings up the last issue. Is fish Ok? If so, in my experience, you'll have no problem living well and healthfully while eating less red meat and etc.

:)

[Spartan112]

I've often considered a vegan diet...but what would I do with the skeletons?

[KingTermite]

I'm glad to see somebody "caught" my subtle "shoutouts" for Dr. Joel Fuhrman's "Eat To Live". I'm kinda like you in that when I read it, I wanted to immediately go vegan. I have failed miserably, but I have learned to work hard to keeping my diet as good as possible (now that I truly understand what a good diet is).

You can get all the protein (more actually) and all essential needs for the body with fruits and vegetables than you can with meat/animal products.

That being said, I am not vegan. I tried, but don't have the willpower (yet). I am not even vegetarian. I do, however, severely limit my meat and animal product intake. I try to keep it to less than 10%.

The great thing about the book is that it explains the proper way to eat. IT IS NOT A DIET - it is a lifestyle change. It's not necessarily about losing weight either, that's just a side effect. It's about preventing all kinds of diseases like cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc....

And to answer about the rapid weight loss and gall stones. It does not necessarily promote rapid weight loss like some diets do. As explained in the book (and my experience), you start out with some fairly rapid weight loss and it tapers off to a normal level after a while (few months maybe).


The best thing about the book to me was that your mind is really opened up in terms of what's really healthy and what isn't. Like what rjm1982 mentioned about he food pyramid. It was designed and sponsored by the meat and dairy industries back in the 30s or 40s. Scientific facts completely revoke the standard food pyramid, but yet it still abounds as what's healthy. It's crap. That's just one small example.

I'm glad somebody took my subtle hints and checked out the book. Now I feel GREAT - you just made my day today, rjm1982!!!! :)

www.drfuhrman.com

[evblazer]

I ordered "Eat to live" and three other books last week from amazon after your post King Termite. I won't get them till the 28th though :eek:

I don't eat alot of meat/dairy/soda/candy but obviously I'm doing something wrong since I'm still stuck at 280+. My wife keeps asking me how to eat healthy so hopefully it'll help with that. Of course she lives on bk/mcdonalds, candy and diet coke with nutritionists and doctors telling her that her diet is fine?!

I've tried vegan but it is very hard to be religiously vegan, which is the line between vegan/vegetarian. I shouldn't get all my info from a comic strip but this is how I soon felt. (Get Fuzzy from comics.com)
http://www.comics.com/comics/getfuzzy/archive/images/getfuzzy2045829070814.gif
http://www.comics.com/comics/getfuzzy/archive/images/getfuzzy2003055270815.gif

[KingTermite]

I ordered "Eat to live" and three other books last week from amazon after your post King Termite. I won't get them till the 28th though :eek:

I don't eat alot of meat/dairy/soda/candy but obviously I'm doing something wrong since I'm still stuck at 280+. My wife keeps asking me how to eat healthy so hopefully it'll help with that. Of course she lives on bk/mcdonalds, candy and diet coke with nutritionists and doctors telling her that her diet is fine?!

I've tried vegan but it is very hard to be religiously vegan, which is the line between vegan/vegetarian. I shouldn't get all my info from a comic strip but this is how I soon felt. (Get Fuzzy from comics.com)

Then I hope you can convince her to read it too. It may actually be a bit "scary" as it blows what most people thing out of the water completely. If you get through most of the main part of the book, you will learn about many of the lessons you were taught as a kid and how they are complete and total lies. You start to think, "is anything I ever learned about healthy nutrition right?".

And like rjm pointed out, he backs it all up with probably hundreds of references studies. It isn't just some fad diet by a guy trying to make a quick buck.

[divingbiker]

Congratulations rjm1982 on going vegan! I've been a vegan for 16 years. The book that changed my life way back when was Diet for a New America by John Robbins (who gave up his share of the Baskin Robbins inheritance because he didn't want to be part of the dairy industry.) I had been a vegetarian for a couple of years, and went vegan overnight after reading that book. So it is possible.

You may find that eating out can be challenging unless there are a lot of ethnic restaurants in your area. And you may be invited to friends' homes less often, because they just don't know how to cook for a vegan.

The processed meat substitutes are delicious, but if you are becoming vegan for health reasons you may want to eat more "whole foods" like tofu, tempeh, and seitan instead. But your book probably told you that.

Veganism isn't a ticket to losing weight. I'm overweight despite my regular exercise and eating a varied vegan diet, but I'm healthier than anyone I know, and my conscience is clear.

Good luck to you! You're young enough that making this change will make a huge difference in your life.

[bobbyahines]

I've been vegetarian for years now. It's not that hard to do. I switched STRICTLY for health reasons. When the oldest living male in your family is 51, and you realize heart disease and diabetes took all the rest, you start looking for a plan. Of all the variables I can control, food is one of them "choose or lose" scenarios. So this mid-western ranch hand is turned vegetable farmer... It's not that I love the cow, so much as the cow is trying to kill me...

[rjm1982]

Yeah, I dont really have a long list of long-living males in my family either...thats part of my reasoning as well.

[BeckyW]

What gets me is that for every book that says meat is evil (I believe some is - particularly the hormone-laced kind), there's one saying carbs are evil (some are), or that we should eat lots of protein, etc... Who's right? There are at least a few authors in all camps who back up what they say with research. So which is better, a "Paleolithic" diet (IIRC - lean organic meat, fish, veggies, very little grain, no dairy), a vegetarian diet, a Mediterranean diet...

They're all better than the typical American diet (sugar, starch, fat, artificial flavors, and manufactured meat product).

[KingTermite]

What gets me is that for every book that says meat is evil (I believe some is - particularly the hormone-laced kind), there's one saying carbs are evil (some are), or that we should eat lots of protein, etc... Who's right? There are at least a few authors in all camps who back up what they say with research. So which is better, a "Paleolithic" diet (IIRC - lean organic meat, fish, veggies, very little grain, no dairy), a vegetarian diet, a Mediterranean diet...

They're all better than the typical American diet (sugar, starch, fat, artificial flavors, and manufactured meat product).

"Eat To Live" will go into much of that detail. He has a whole chapter, IIRC, about how confused people must be because of all the conflicting information. He breaks it down and explains it decently well. Basically, he says many of the other philosophies are right in one fashion or another, but what he gives is good sound advice for "all cases", not just "one fashion or another".

[rjm1982]

Well, the great thing about this book is he isn't just saying "this is bad, that is bad" ... hes providing long-term test results (many of these tests are conducted over years or even decades). He doesnt say "dont eat this"...

He just shows you the link between certain foods and health problems.

The idea is just look at the food, and look at its nutrient density (N in the equation).

N = (nutrients: protein, vitamins, fiber, etc):calories.

Basically, in America, most people are very malnourished. We eat a lot of calories, and not a lot of nutrients. "Overfed and Undernourished".

[kc0bbq]

The protein thing... Its a myth about veggie diets though...

Look at the chart below.

http://bp3.blogger.com/_imF-SbL3AMY/Rqi4P6Ke4GI/AAAAAAAAACg/9oXq7TE_Q24/s320/Broccoli+Chart.jpgMmm, misleading statistics. 100 calories of broccoli is like four servings. Broccoli (and all cabbages) are pretty amazing foods, but if you're filling up on broccoli you're going to miss out on a lot of other important things. And for every broccoli, there are ten other vegetables with the nutritional content of water.

Meat isn't necessarily efficient, but it's a compact source of a lot of nutrition. And the protein thing isn't just a myth, there is more to protein than a generic reference to protein.

Just be careful with your diet. Don't let the pendulum swing too far just because of one book. Make sure you are meeting all of your needs nutritionally or you'll just be killing yourself in a different, and possibly more painful way.

[KingTermite]

Well, the great thing about this book is he isn't just saying "this is bad, that is bad" ... hes providing long-term test results (many of these tests are conducted over years or even decades). He doesnt say "dont eat this"...

He just shows you the link between certain foods and health problems.

The idea is just look at the food, and look at its nutrient density (N in the equation).

N = (nutrients: protein, vitamins, fiber, etc):calories.

Basically, in America, most people are very malnourished. We eat a lot of calories, and not a lot of nutrients. "Overfed and Undernourished".Beautiful summary, rjm1982.

This is very true and why I said I'm not vegan or even full vegetarian. He doesn't say "don't eat <x>". He shows the data of what <x> does compared to other "good" foods. Then he designs his own food pyramid which shows those foods which have some negative things proven for large and long-time consumption at the top of the pyramid (eat less of). That's basically what I try to do as best I can.

As rjm1982 pointed out, if there is one and only one concept to take from the book it is to look at the nutrient density of foods.

ND = N/C

You want foods that are highest in nutrients and lowest in calories....which so happen to mostly work out to vegetables and fruits with green vegetables FTW.

[KingTermite]

Mmm, misleading statistics. 100 calories of broccoli is like four servings. Broccoli (and all cabbages) are pretty amazing foods, but if you're filling up on broccoli you're going to miss out on a lot of other important things. And for every broccoli, there are ten other vegetables with the nutritional content of water.

Meat isn't necessarily efficient, but it's a compact source of a lot of nutrition. And the protein thing isn't just a myth, there is more to protein than a generic reference to protein.

Just be careful with your diet. Don't let the pendulum swing too far just because of one book. Make sure you are meeting all of your needs nutritionally or you'll just be killing yourself in a different, and possibly more painful way.
It's actually weight measures that are misleading statistics. By comparing to calories you normalize the numbers.

Nobody said anything about completely filling up on broccoli or any one vegetable, just that you can get the same or more of the nutrients you need (including protein) from vegetables as you can from meat.

There are many, many studies and facts that will back this up.

[Terrierman]

I have one comment that I think is salient to this thread. All things in moderation. It is my mantra. I could do worse.

[kc0bbq]

It's actually weight measures that are misleading statistics. By comparing to calories you normalize the numbers.

Nobody said anything about completely filling up on broccoli or any one vegetable, just that you can get the same or more of the nutrients you need (including protein) from vegetables as you can from meat.

There are many, many studies and facts that will back this up.There's volume to be considered as well. As for "nutrients", that's just vague. The nutrient content in a megadose tablet of vitamin C is sky high, but it's pretty much vitamin C and filler.

Some necessary nutrients are extremely rare, and in the case of B12, impossible to get until the recent discovery that it is produced by a type of yeast. Not a problem for a couple decades if you've ever had a diet containing meat, but still a concern. Unless, that is, you want to eat your own poo. ;) The human body does produce B12, but in the colon, and that organ does not let B12 through.

You have to be extremely careful in your food intake if you're not omnivorous, plant proteins aren't complete proteins.

I'm not arguing just to argue. You can't just base your nutrition intake on grams of protein or whatever. If you're not eating meat, you have to eat more and more varied protein sources. Balance is the key, and it's more work to reach that if you are limiting your options.

[KingTermite]

There's volume to be considered as well. As for "nutrients", that's just vague. The nutrient content in a megadose tablet of vitamin C is sky high, but it's pretty much vitamin C and filler.

Some necessary nutrients are extremely rare, and in the case of B12, impossible to get until the recent discovery that it is produced by a type of yeast. Not a problem for a couple decades if you've ever had a diet containing meat, but still a concern. Unless, that is, you want to eat your own poo. ;) The human body does produce B12, but in the colon, and that organ does not let B12 through.

You have to be extremely careful in your food intake if you're not omnivorous, plant proteins aren't complete proteins.

I'm not arguing just to argue. You can't just base your nutrition intake on grams of protein or whatever. If you're not eating meat, you have to eat more and more varied protein sources. Balance is the key, and it's more work to reach that if you are limiting your options.

You are correct, and i'm not arguing the varied protein types. But you can get the varied types from non-meat sources.

As far as the nutrients being vague, yes. We can't summarize a 350 page book in a 3 sentence post and get all the details included.

And again correct about the supplements. You can get sky high doses of one item, but are missing on perhaps thousands of other things that are in the food you aren't eating (whatever that food may be). There is a whole chapter on fruits and these things that are relatively new discoveries called "microphyto<something or other>". They are just starting to discover how these things help prevent many diseases and such and they just discovered them.

The rule there is to try to get your nutrients from food. Preferably natural and raw food. Supplements should only be used for what you can't get from actual food. You are always missing "something" by just doing a supplement and not the food itself. Even assuming they discovered all the nutrients needed, you'd probably be taking 1000 pills a day to try to get them. That's crazy.

[Air]

Not to mention increase your chances of getting laid (http://www.nydailynews.com/lifestyle/2007/08/09/2007-08-09_vegetable_magnetism.html).

[bobbyahines]

I admit I'm a fan of this particular book. My fandom stems from the transparency of his research and source evaluation. His other books don't warrant the same respect from me. The Chinese studies have some pretty poor experimental controls...

[Spartan112]

If we weren't intended to eat animals they wouldn't be made of meat.

[KingTermite]

If we weren't intended to eat animals they wouldn't be made of meat.

:rolleyes: *groan*

[Spartan112]

I have two sets of canine teeth, I have to do it.

[Hocam]

Moderation is a very ambiguous word.

Meat in moderation to you might mean once a day, but to me means twice a week.

[fifthcircle]

I like meat. I eat meat.

You wanna not eat it, that's fine.

My grandfather died at the age of 93. He ate meat 3 times a day. Bacon and Eggs in the am, steak at lunch most of the time, and Hamburgers most evenings. His heart, blood pressure, and cholesterol were all normal his entire life.

Eat what you want, work hard and enjoy life. That's how I am livin!


Of course loosing my Mom to cancer at the age of 10 might make me think differently about life than some....

[KingTermite]

I like meat. I eat meat.

You wanna not eat it, that's fine.

My grandfather died at the age of 93. He ate meat 3 times a day. Bacon and Eggs in the am, steak at lunch most of the time, and Hamburgers most evenings. His heart, blood pressure, and cholesterol were all normal his entire life.

Eat what you want, work hard and enjoy life. That's how I am livin!


Of course loosing my Mom to cancer at the age of 10 might make me think differently about life than some....

So you take one counter example to the THOUSANDS (if not millions) of examples used for the research. If you are a Clyde and "want" to lose weight, I think looking into nutrition would behoove you. I'm not even saying to "buy" this hook, line and sinker. But I strongly suggest if you want to research nutrition, to include this in your research. You should make up your own mind on what you believe, but make up your mind on evidence, not one simple example.

[Stujoe]

I eat meat. I can't see myself ever not eating meat. I don't eat a lot, though, and try to limit the red stuff. I love fruits and veggies and other non-red meat items so it is not hard for me to eat a lot of that stuff. I am practically addicted to bananas and carrots and apples and broccoli. I get plenty of fruit and veggie servings every day.

But, I just can't see myself ever worrying whether what I eat has a trace of some animal product in it or not. The hard core vegetable only eaters seems to border almost on a religion to me. I try to eat healthy and strive to be better at it but I don't want it to be the defining aspect of my life. I don't begrudge anyone who strives for a healthy lifestyle, though. More power to you no matter what path you take if it gets you healthier.

[Terrierman]

Moderation is a very ambiguous word.

Meat in moderation to you might mean once a day, but to me means twice a week.

Of course moderation is ambiguous, it only means eliminate the extreme. Either of your examples elimiinates the extremes, (assuming once a day is not a 16 oz ribeye) which is the point.

[cohophysh]

Good luck...as others have suggested you might want to go veggie before vegan or even start with a piscivorous (fish)/Ovo...chicken type diet first. Don't let the nay sayers here sway you. You need to do what you need to do and I applaud you in doing so. One of the big issues with meat is you don't know where it came from or what it was fed...same with veggies too, shop locally or join a CSA if you have any of those close...let us know how it goes.

[Tom Stormcrowe]

The only thing I'd mention is that too much processed soy can lead to male estrogen issues from too much plant estrogen being ingested.

EDIT: Fixed my sloppy typing

[coyboy]

this thread has made me work up an appatite. Mungry...Sguit (contraction for I'm hungry, let's go eat)

[rjm1982]

You know what...

This could be coincidence, or it could quite possibly be a manifestation of the placebo effect, but I literally had the best sleep last night, better than I can remember as of late. I typically wake up multiple times a night, not to mention have a hard time falling asleep. I fell asleep earlier than normal (around 9:30) watching tv, and woke up in the same position I fell asleep in. I generally move all over the place, hell, I wake up sleeping across the side of my bed sometimes, like a 90 degree turn.

I'm sure that this is merely a coincidence or the result of something else I did yesterday, but man, if this kind of things comes with a better diet...I'm all for it.

And Tom, I've heard that, and I dont really like alot of soy products that I can taste directly...so I think I'm safe. I will research more into that though, thanks for reminding me!

[KingTermite]

You know what...

This could be coincidence, or it could quite possibly be a manifestation of the placebo effect, but I literally had the best sleep last night, better than I can remember as of late. I typically wake up multiple times a night, not to mention have a hard time falling asleep. I fell asleep earlier than normal (around 9:30) watching tv, and woke up in the same position I fell asleep in. I generally move all over the place, hell, I wake up sleeping across the side of my bed sometimes, like a 90 degree turn.

I'm sure that this is merely a coincidence or the result of something else I did yesterday, but man, if this kind of things comes with a better diet...I'm all for it.

And Tom, I've heard that, and I dont really like alot of soy products that I can taste directly...so I think I'm safe. I will research more into that though, thanks for reminding me!

Probably coincidence. However, if you regularly toss and turn that much it may be likely you have sleep apnea. Have you ever had a sleep study and been tested? It seems a simple thing, but can actually be dangerous if left untreated.

[rjm1982]

Yeah, I'm clear of apnea. I did a sleep study and the doctor said that even though I remained in rem sleep aside from a couple wakeups...I still moved alot more during rem sleep. He said something about the chemicals our brains release to tell our bodies not to respond to our dreams are not exactly right or something.

Which is wierd, because on the other hand I have sleep paralysis like once every couple of months (thats just the opposite, its when you conscious mind wakes up, but your body is still in sleep mode and you cant move...scarry as hell the first time).

Supposedly neither are really issues that need to be worried about too much.

[KingTermite]

If you want great tips for vegan and/or "Eat To Live" lifestyle, pay the small fee for membership on his website and get on the "Eat To Live" forums. With membership you have access to tons of recipes and support from members (who are also constantly spouting recipes). At some point a vita-mix (or blend-tec) blender will be a must too.

[rjm1982]

I've got the blender market handled. Restaurant quality food processor and 2 great blenders :)

(when i buy my toys, i never go cheap :) )

[Turboem1]

I also want to thank KingTermite for the recomendation. I bought the book around october 06 after he talked about it. I went from 280lbs to 224lbs currently. I dont follow the book 100% (I try but I have no control :) ) The information in the book is great and really helped me out.

[KingTermite]

I also want to thank KingTermite for the recomendation. I bought the book around october 06 after he talked about it. I went from 280lbs to 224lbs currently. I dont follow the book 100% (I try but I have no control :) ) The information in the book is great and really helped me out.

Great to know. That's basically where I am too....I don't go 100% (not quite enough willpower yet), but I've lost weight because of better eating. How do I know its eating better? Because time I was lax or unable to get on bike I was still losing or at least remaining constant.

[kc0bbq]

Preferably natural and raw food. I *have* to pick this nit. :( Oh, god, oh god, not raw foodism. :(

Humans are not equipped to break down cellulose. Sure, there's a lot more nutrition in a raw vegetable, but chewing is not going to break down enough cell walls to get at any of it. Even among animals aquipped for digesting raw plant material almost all have to resort to regurgitating it to chew it more (cattle, etc.) or have a pouch to store feces so they can eat it again to get at those nutrients (rodents like rabbits, guinea pigs), or some other gimmick like a symbiotic organism, are limited to specific plants they evolved specific enzymes for....

If you intend to eat plant based foods for most of your nutrition at the very least blanch the vegetabes so you get something out of them.

"Natural" gets a pretty convenient definition, too. "Natural" cabbages are in no way similar to engineered crops like broccoli or brussel sprouts. Most "natural" nightshades will generally kill you, you won't find grocery store tomatoes in the wild, most wild precursors to modern potatoes are poisonous, too. You won't find a "natural" plant that resembles corn, either.

If you want to give up meat for whatever reason, go for it, but make sure you understand what you are doing. One book, which is starting to look like one with an agenda overriding science, is not a basis to make a decision, it's something that should spur you to educate yourself so you can make a *good* decision. Talk to a neutral dietician or food scientist or something.

I hope someone takes this to heart, because there's already enough tinfoil hat "that's what the government and corporations want you to think" in here. I'll turn the thread over to that, there's no room for a voice of reason against dogma.

[rjm1982]

Ok, so many places to start with that one...

First, You have no clue what you're talking about in relation to this book. You obviously haven't read it, yet you feel that you are absolutely qualified to judge it.

We can break down a lot of plants just fine. Thats why our feces contains corn after we eat it, but not lettuce, broccoli, spinach, sprouts...etc. We can break down some plant cells, and not others. Some nutrients, vitamin C, for example, is better absorbed from blanched veggies. Others, like betacaratene are more easily extracted from raw veggies.

Second, had you actually looked at the book, you would find that he recommends vegetables be taken half and half. Half cooked, Half uncooked. About a lb of each every day if possible.

Also, had you read the book, you would have noticed no less than 22 pages of sources. Every claim he makes, he backs with a third party source. He makes no scientific claims of his own. He simply brings a few decades of studies together in one source.

As for your "natural" rant. Most veggies are perfectly natural. Are they bigger/better than the plants in the wild? Yes. Why are they? Some mad scientist? Some crazy voodoo magic? Nope. Just plain selection. Over the years, through farming, weak yielding plants are taken out of the batch before they can pollinate or otherwise reproduce. Its like a very fast evolution. Through human selection, we weed out bad qualities and encourage good ones. Hell, we wouldn't be able to eat most vegetables around if it weren't for this. The American Indians figured out how to not only grow an edible corn, but figured out how to get the husk on it. Corn didn't originally have that. Europeans found that by growing potatoes in soil rich in certain minerals, they could make them edible. Thats not really "unnatural". If it is, than Beef and Chicken are unnatural as well, as they wouldn't exist in the US without human intervention.

As for the tinfoil hat... nope. Don't need it. Aside from being a ridiculously stupid comment, its again, unfounded. The nutrition community has been pushing the USDA for years to change the pyramid, its simply not a healthy lesson to be taught. The US-D-A, "D" being "DAIRY" is supported by dairy farmers. It's not a hard line to draw between an entity backed and supported by the Dairy industry giving dairy products the biggest space in that pyramid. Its no different than oil-friendly politicians making deals with oil companies. Its not a conspiracy, its politics and money.

Lastly, and most importantly. You can eat what you want. I've made it clear, as have others in this thread, that there is no diet that fits everyone, and that I am in no way telling anyone that this would be better for them than what they eat. Why is it, then, that you could not return the same courtesy?

[The Historian]

You know what...

This could be coincidence, or it could quite possibly be a manifestation of the placebo effect, but I literally had the best sleep last night, better than I can remember as of late. I typically wake up multiple times a night, not to mention have a hard time falling asleep. I fell asleep earlier than normal (around 9:30) watching tv, and woke up in the same position I fell asleep in. I generally move all over the place, hell, I wake up sleeping across the side of my bed sometimes, like a 90 degree turn.

I'm sure that this is merely a coincidence or the result of something else I did yesterday, but man, if this kind of things comes with a better diet...I'm all for it.

And Tom, I've heard that, and I dont really like alot of soy products that I can taste directly...so I think I'm safe. I will research more into that though, thanks for reminding me!

Exercise and a change in diet will do that for you. Congratulations.