Cyclocross - Rob Roy group buy

Thanks for the clarification.

Got mine! Thanks for all your work, Adam. You. Da. Man.

Got mine! Thanks for all your work, Adam. You. Da. Man.


I appreciate that though I feel like I dropped the ball big time with the build option.

You know what I might do? Buy a fully built bike now and swap the frame later and sell the blue frame. I mean, I'll be almost guaranteed if I take care of the blue frame to get what I pay for the BRG frame, right? Might do two that way and get two later...might just be the best option!

I put in my order for a frameset. That's what was initially discussed, and i can build a decent bike off of this frame. I'll be pleasantly surprised if the build kit works out to a nice price.

full build options will be dealt with when the frames arrive.

All I can say is those of you who want a build can lobby Tony all you want. Previously I worried about overwhelming him, but I think he's gotta still be making money on the frames, even a little bit, and even if we're getting them at his cost there's no way the math adds up for a fully built bike at $540. So, I think there's something funny and I want to know what. Not saying he's doing ANYTHING dishonest at all, but he's either taking a huge hit on the full Rob Roy or he's making a mint on us.

Anyways, give me your thoughts...


I am unsurprised to see someone in a niche-market craft being very specific about what he'll discount and what he needs full price for. The group buy frame order will save him time and work selling that many frames and saves him the cost of having frames sit on the shelf waiting for buyers - that's a powerful incentive to make a deal. Outfitting them takes exactly as much labor as it would with a regular buy. For all we know Tony is pegged out and sure won't want to hire help for a one time deal. I'd also expect that the increase in parts volume won't get him anywhere near the quantity break in price that he can get on the frames. Two or three hundred more chains or headsets or cranks a year isn't that big a deal to his distributors.

I build effects pedals for guitar players. If you wanted to get a group buy for the drilled, powdercoated, silkscreened housings for one, it could sell for less than I'm paying now and I'd still make a profit. But stuffing in the guts and assembling them would cost just as much as it does now. There are only so many hours in a day so I can't make up my labor by selling in higher volume so I cannot discount it. Parts distributors are not awed by my buying power. They don't send sales reps to buy me fancy dinners. I don't think Tony's getting anything better than published prices either.

Anyway, sorry to blather on, it really does seem reasonable to me. He gives a break on the part that the the group buy helps him save money on and doesn't discount the part that still costs him as much.

Ron

I am unsurprised to see someone in a niche-market craft being very specific about what he'll discount and what he needs full price for. The group buy frame order will save him time and work selling that many frames and saves him the cost of having frames sit on the shelf waiting for buyers - that's a powerful incentive to make a deal. Outfitting them takes exactly as much labor as it would with a regular buy. For all we know Tony is pegged out and sure won't want to hire help for a one time deal. I'd also expect that the increase in parts volume won't get him anywhere near the quantity break in price that he can get on the frames. Two or three hundred more chains or headsets or cranks a year isn't that big a deal to his distributors.

I build effects pedals for guitar players. If you wanted to get a group buy for the drilled, powdercoated, silkscreened housings for one, it could sell for less than I'm paying now and I'd still make a profit. But stuffing in the guts and assembling them would cost just as much as it does now. There are only so many hours in a day so I can't make up my labor by selling in higher volume so I cannot discount it. Parts distributors are not awed by my buying power. They don't send sales reps to buy me fancy dinners. I don't think Tony's getting anything better than published prices either.

Anyway, sorry to blather on, it really does seem reasonable to me. He gives a break on the part that the the group buy helps him save money on and doesn't discount the part that still costs him as much.

Ron

I totally understand, but here the numbers don't seem to add up. I would ask what does Tony pay for a frame? If it's $160 like we're getting then he makes $140 on a frame sale. Then you look at the total for a built RR and it clocks in at $600 which is, no doubt a discounted price. But, since he gets the frame for $160 he basically charges $440 for the build and parts and then delivers the bike to us. This hardly seems worth it, IMHO, because he's now not making anything on the frame and very little on the parts and build. Unless the parts and build are cheaper than we're giving him credit for. So, at $380 for a build on a GB frame how much is he making?

Doing the math it would make sense he's still making a mint beyond overhead, but with the volume we're attracting (in no small part thanks to myself and Dave Howland) he's banking on building up, what, probably a third of all GB buyer's bikes. These are bikes he wouldn't be building if it weren't for the GB so it seems fair he gives us a discount, and I feel like we haven't gotten one.

If he's still making money at $600 for a built bike, and he must be or he wouldn't be doing, let's just say he discounts the frame price from $300 to $200 for you then the balance is $400 on the build and parts. Let's say he banks on taking home $150 per bike, then $110 is coming from the build and the parts. So, he actually gets the parts for $290 and the rest is labor.

Ok, so it's theoretical, but you can see how it adds up...Either he's making WAY less on a normal RR bike and banking on super high volume or he's making a mint on us due to the heavy volume. I think the latter is more likely the case as how often is it that easily 30 people want a build all at the same time that mightn't otherwise buy a RR?

I guess what I'm saying is I don't feel like a $60 discount is worth it to have a custom color as I have to wait so dang long. I wanted the fully built RR to begin with, so I guess I should have gone that route originally and not wasted my time.

What I'll do is as I mentioned, buy a full RR now and swap the custom frame later and make up the difference selling the blue frame and fork. Problem there is I feel like a schmuck as I get this great "secret" deal and some schmoe gets stuck with a used frame and I MAKE money on it.

So much for entrepreneurial spirit, eh?

he's banking on building up, what, probably a third of all GB buyer's bikes.

I doubt this very highly. I would bet the number is considerably less, something like 1/10th or smaller. Looking at the last group buy, that's certainly how it went. We all spent the winter accruing parts and then put the bikes together ourselves when they arrived.

The rest of your post is all over the place - where do you get the idea that Tony buys these frames for $20? From what I've read before, it's something closer to $75 per frame. It's still leaves Tony with a tidy profit, but substantially less than $140 profit per frame.

Thanks for clarifying, Adam. And thanks again for your hustle.

I'm almost happy to hear this, since it makes a formerly difficult decision easier. I knew that there was no way I could beat $190 specing out my own parts, but there were a few things I wanted different than the stock RR. I'm pretty confident, on the other hand, that with a little patience on eBay (hey, I've got four months), I could get better components for well under $380.

Now the big internal debate for me is whether I should build a separate wheelset for SSCX, or if I should just just a flip-flop hub and slap on some knobbies. This bike will probably be my primary commuter with a fixed drivetrain, but I'd definitely like to take it on some local trails.

full build options will be dealt with when the frames arrive.

So far not the best news, though, but I'm waiting to hear from Tony on this. I asked him about the $350 he quoted me before, and it was my folly thinking that would be the total...he got back to me and said it was for the build kit, and did NOT include the frame and fork price. Oh yeah, and he bumped it from $350 to $380. Doing the math in my head, that means I did a buttload of work to get a full Rob Roy for exactly $59 less and I have to wait 3 months. Granted, it'll be a unique color, but I was expecting at the least $140 off the fully built bike price and not just $60. If the price was $460 I'd think it was a deal, and worth doing, but as is I'm just going to buy one frame and build it with cheap stuff I find around the net. Obviously I'm kind of pissed.

I did e-mail Tony back, twice now, asking him if there was any maneuverability in that price at all. I lobbied on behalf of those who would rather pay $59 more to get a bike now, but I haven't heard anything back. I also asked him if he could discount it for just sending a box full of parts instead of a built bike, as I know many of y'all wouldn't mind putting it together yourselves.

So, I'm bummed because I'm really stoked on the RR and I feel like it was kind of a bust. For those of you who just wanted the frame anyways I'm super glad that you get a great deal on that, at least. Looks like I'm going that route, too.

All I can say is those of you who want a build can lobby Tony all you want. Previously I worried about overwhelming him, but I think he's gotta still be making money on the frames, even a little bit, and even if we're getting them at his cost there's no way the math adds up for a fully built bike at $540. So, I think there's something funny and I want to know what. Not saying he's doing ANYTHING dishonest at all, but he's either taking a huge hit on the full Rob Roy or he's making a mint on us.

Anyways, give me your thoughts...

This is a group buy of frames, not complete bikes. I'm sure if you were to set up a group buy of complete bike with no variation in the orders except sizing and frame color you'd get a better deal. But you didn't do that, you set up a buy for frames, which you are getting a healthy discount on.

You aren't taking into account the amount of time Tony and company have to spend answering the telephone and responding to emails about this group buy as well. The fixed gear crowd here seems like a high maintenance bunch who will take up a lot of time asking the same questions matching rims to the frame color or whatever. It costs money to answer those questions.


Also, another thing that you are not taking into account is that the standard RR doesn't come with a Brooks saddle. Is there anything else in the build kit you specified that deviates from the stock RR?

His build won't come with a Brooks. I mentioned Brooks because it's what I want, and would pay extra for that.

Regardless, I know my last post wasn't the most lucid, but the bottom line, to me, is that what has been done for IRO is a great marketing service. So, he has a few days of busier phone answering....he also sells probably a minimum of 10 times as many frames in one pop for very little work than he regularly would. Even though we get a deal he still comes out way ahead that he would have without the free marketing.

All I'm saying is had I been clear on the final price I probably would have bought a RR built as is and had it in my hands as we speak, never having bothered with compiling an enormous list and working with folks to make it a good deal for the masses. I, personally, don't have any vested interest in the color. Nor does it make sense to wait three months and pay a whopping $60 less than I would by popping now.

Like I said, he wins big on us...do the math if you want, and you'll see he'll probably come out of it $10K happier for this. Ok, so argue he's also putting in more work. Do you think he'd argue with 100 people coming to him at once and asking for the same stuff, but regular pricing? Probably not...the work is easy for the money it brings in, and is WAY more worth it than you think.

Maybe I just think I should get something for my effort...I dunno.

Adam, if you think you are owed something, ya might ring his phone and mention it.

At least do something other than wander around here mumbling.

Don't mean to be harsh about it, but let's save words for where they'll do some good.

Ron

His build won't come with a Brooks. I mentioned Brooks because it's what I want, and would pay extra for that.

Regardless, I know my last post wasn't the most lucid, but the bottom line, to me, is that what has been done for IRO is a great marketing service. So, he has a few days of busier phone answering....he also sells probably a minimum of 10 times as many frames in one pop for very little work than he regularly would. Even though we get a deal he still comes out way ahead that he would have without the free marketing.

All I'm saying is had I been clear on the final price I probably would have bought a RR built as is and had it in my hands as we speak, never having bothered with compiling an enormous list and working with folks to make it a good deal for the masses. I, personally, don't have any vested interest in the color. Nor does it make sense to wait three months and pay a whopping $60 less than I would by popping now.

Like I said, he wins big on us...do the math if you want, and you'll see he'll probably come out of it $10K happier for this. Ok, so argue he's also putting in more work. Do you think he'd argue with 100 people coming to him at once and asking for the same stuff, but regular pricing? Probably not...the work is easy for the money it brings in, and is WAY more worth it than you think.

Maybe I just think I should get something for my effort...I dunno.
You helped to organize a group buy of frames, on which you are getting a significant discount. You didn't organize a group buy of complete bikes, yet you seem to think you deserve a further discount on parts. I really don't understand why you are unhappy and why you think you should get a further discount on a build kit.

If you wanted a complete bike at a steep discount you should have tried to organize a group buy of complete bikes to begin with.

You have no reason to whine and complain; it makes you sound like a spoiled child.

Deleted

^^^^

Why are you attacking me?

^^^^

Why are you attacking me?

I deleted it. I'm already tired of the BS and giving Adam ****. I'm out, someone take my place in line for a frame/kit.

I deleted it. I'm already tired of the BS and giving Adam ****. I'm out, someone take my place in line for a frame/kit.

No one is giving Adam ****. People are questioning his sense of entitlement. No one owes him anything except a thank you for organizing the group buy.

Hey, I think Adam has a valid point. Paying $60 less and having to wait four months makes little sense. The difference between the regular frame and the group buy frame is over hundred dollars. So why is it the a complete build using the group buy frame only has a difference of $60?

Personally, had I known this up front, I would have put the deposit down this morning. But I did, so I'll probably get the frame and slowly gather parts for it.

Bottom line: a difference of $60 is not worth four months of waiting.

As another question: if I get the frame only, do I need to prep the frame with frame saver, chase threads, and face the head tube?

I do think it is bad form to complain about prices. There are other options out there. I am biased since i get this flack daily when there is nothing i can do about it and I am not getting big bucks myself. Complaining about price is reactionary and people have to vent. Does not change a thing for me. Still going to get my frame and I think it compares favorably to what is out there on the market.

Lets get conversation back on pleasant things. Anyone else buying a big frame to ride on the road? I'm 5'10", 33.75 inseam and thinking about the 60 cm for a alfine hub. It even looks just a little smaller than my road bike.

Do you know of any north american webstore that carries the alfine hub online?

So far I've only found http://bike-components.de/catalog/Alfine+S500+Disc+Center+Lock+HR-Nabe+135+mm

They charge 30 euros to ship to north america though, and then I'll have to get a wheel built...


I do think it is bad form to complain about prices. There are other options out there. I am biased since i get this flack daily when there is nothing i can do about it and I am not getting big bucks myself. Complaining about price is reactionary and people have to vent. Does not change a thing for me. Still going to get my frame and I think it compares favorably to what is out there on the market.

Lets get conversation back on pleasant things. Anyone else buying a big frame to ride on the road? I'm 5'10", 33.75 inseam and thinking about the 60 cm for a alfine hub. It even looks just a little smaller than my road bike.

Isn't the Alfine hub just the disc version of the Nexus 8 Premium? If so, where are you going to mount the disc calipers? I think you should look at the Nexus 8 Premium at aebike for $150.

Anyhoo...I know it's my fault for not being clear in the first place with Tony and understanding what the facts were. I got giddy when he said $350+ thinking there's no way that's on top of the $160 for the frame because that would be almost just as much! It seemed ridiculous and I reasoned thusly, but I never made it clear with Tony. My fault.

And I am just venting. Take it for what it's worth to you, but I did put an enormous amount of energy into this and it does feel like it wasn't worth a thing. And I don't think Tony does group buys on complete bikes or if he does then what we have is about as close to it as it'll get.

For whoever said maybe 1/10th will want a complete bike I urge you to look in my inbox right now with about 25 people's return e-mails after yesterday asking me about the full build. So, it's not the third I predicted because there were 130 e-mail addresses on my list, but it's a significant number and, if history has any bearing on the future, there will be more questioning e-mails coming.

I do feel entitled, and I feel like the people I represented for the complete bike are entitled to a more fair seeming price.

Like I said, take it for what it's worth, but this will be my last post *****in' about it. I don't want to bring anyone down, and I guess I'm not surprised I received flak but I didn't expect it. I want everyone to enjoy their frames and I'm already upset Blais is backing out. Wish it weren't so. Enjoy your frames!

he's not doing a factory order for components. so you're not getting any crazy good deals on them. the "complete bike" price on the site has the price it does because he's making money on both the frame and components. $350 is still significantly less than you'd pay for a build kit plus wheels on the site.

you should a)not feel bad about getting the price wrong, people make mistakes. plus it definitely sounded too good to be true. and b)show a little more gratitude that you're getting an insane deal on frames.

just because he's done this before doesn't mean it's something tony has to do.

Well, that's that. 56cm in orange on the way.

Folks, I did not read the whole thread, so please excuse me if this has been discussed.

Someone just posted on CL in Washington DC with links to this group buy.
Is this group buy targeting the BF community (and close associates) or is it in public domain?

Folks, I did not read the whole thread, so please excuse me if this has been discussed.

Someone just posted on CL in Washington DC with links to this group buy.
Is this group buy targeting the BF community (and close associates) or is it in public domain?

Public...the more the better.

he's not doing a factory order for components. so you're not getting any crazy good deals on them. the "complete bike" price on the site has the price it does because he's making money on both the frame and components. $350 is still significantly less than you'd pay for a build kit plus wheels on the site.


Thanks for explaining this. However, it doesn't change the fact that you can buy the complete bike for only $60 more and get it much sooner. So I'll probably just order the frame now and find parts elsewhere.

...As another question: if I get the frame only, do I need to prep the frame with frame saver, chase threads, and face the head tube?

From my experience with the previous group buy (SSFG frame), the bottom bracket threads were fine and so was the head tube though it's a good practice to have them prepped anyways. I say do a "dry" install of the bottom bracket to see if it threads in easily without grease but don't torque it down. If it goes in easily you probably won't have to get the threads chased.

I did have to prep the frame with rust inhibitor though (i used Boeshield T9).

I too was worried as heck about the chasing/facing of the BB shell and headtube since it would mean more $$$ spent at the LBS, but everything has been fine so far.

Thanks for explaining this. However, it doesn't change the fact that you can buy the complete bike for only $60 more and get it much sooner. So I'll probably just order the frame now and find parts elsewhere.


Exactly.

dirtyphotons, gratitude factors into it when someone bends over for you. I did an assload of marketing, as did others with the voting site and various craigslist postings and now Tony's going to make a shiny penny on tons of folks getting frames all at once.

Again to the math. $75 a frame means he makes $225 on a standard frame sale. Let's say he sells 10 a month. That's $2250. If he makes $85 off of the group buy, per frame, and sells 100 he's just made $8500 for placing an order and putting frames in boxes. I think it's evident that doing GBs is a good deal for him. Not to mention the impule buyers who will say "Hey, Tony, throw in cranks, a BB and some hubs while you're at it..." For those we pay full IRO MSRP, which wile still a good deal, is nowhere near the deal one would get buying the full bike.

It's all in the margins. Volume is high, prices can be lower! Volume is low, prices need to be higher! We're basically insuring him a high level of volume, and he can't lose, which makes him really comfortable for February to roll around.

Now, if he would offer the group a build at $460 I think everybody could do the math and see that seems really fair. Standard RR build is $600. Standard frame is $300. If we take $140 off of the frame then wouldn't it make sense to take $140 off the build? So, not only is he minting off the GB, but he'll make even MORE on those who want a built bike.

Like I said, though, I'm done debating this because I think an overwhelming majority can understand what I'm driving at. Those who can't are unreachable...

Just ask him straight out "if I get X number of people who want the standard build kit- all the same components, can we get it for Y $$?"

Because he really doesn't owe you or anyone else anything. We're getting super-cheap frames because he's getting a big order. That's the deal. And frankly you don't know what the frames cost him or the parts or what kind of overhead is involved, so you're really not in a position to determine what a "fair" price is.

But maybe if you show him he's got a guaranteed X number of build kit orders he'd be inclined to give this sub-group a deal. Maybe if you had 25 or 50 people willing to put $50 down toward a build kit he'd come down. Just ask.

Just ask him straight out "if I get X number of people who want the standard build kit- all the same components, can we get it for Y $$?"

Because he really doesn't owe you or anyone else anything. We're getting super-cheap frames because he's getting a big order. That's the deal. And frankly you don't know what the frames cost him or the parts or what kind of overhead is involved, so you're really not in a position to determine what a "fair" price is.

But maybe if you show him he's got a guaranteed X number of build kit orders he'd be inclined to give this sub-group a deal. Maybe if you had 25 or 50 people willing to put $50 down toward a build kit he'd come down. Just ask.

correction, sub-class...

anyways, I did that, and haven't heard back. He seems to respond to whatever he wants, and if it doesn't suit him I get nothin' back. I can barely get him on the phone even. I'm in sales, so I'm used to having goals and getting rewarded and I like the marketing game. I know I can go to several places around my town and get folks in on the buy...if he wants me to do the legwork I will, but I wanna know there's a reward.

Thanks for explaining this. However, it doesn't change the fact that you can buy the complete bike for only $60 more and get it much sooner. So I'll probably just order the frame now and find parts elsewhere.

good call man, that's what i'd do.

gratitude factors into it when someone bends over for you.

i try to be grateful for even the small stuff, and i'm sorry to differ with you on this because i really do appreciate the work you've already put in for this group buy.

i'm sorry if you feel that your efforts arent being duly rewarded. if you would have done it differently had you established the facts beforehand then that's a bummer. the lesson learned is to be sure of the return before you make the investment of time and work. but you're certainly entitled to express your dissatisfaction here and wherever else you deem appropriate.

i know you think that tony's making a grip off of all this, and maybe he is. but i am still worried that he's going to decide that these group buys arent worth the trouble. that'd be a bigger bummer, imho.

Again to the math. $75 a frame means he makes $225 on a standard frame sale. Let's say he sells 10 a month. That's $2250. If he makes $85 off of the group buy, per frame, and sells 100 he's just made $8500 for placing an order and putting frames in boxes.

I'm purely speculating on numbers (aren't we all?), but I doubt the math is like that. I expect the builders give him an improved price for a big order, and he offers very small margin on the group buy, because, as you say, all he does is get them in, stick labels on boxes, and ship them out. I'd speculate that it's something like: normal frame cost to him $140, margin: $140, large order (group buy) frame cost: $100, margin: $60. It might not even be this much.

For him, the big difference is there's minimal work to do with the group buy of framesets only, so he can cut margin way down and make a worthwhile one time profit. That's probably why he takes deposits too, because of his risk exposure in a large purchase, low margin deal like this. If we start ordering built bikes, then really, there is minimal discount to pass on. My guess is that $60 price reduction on a group-buy complete bike, he's probably still taking less margin than a full retail, with the only benefit to himself being extra sales.

I think the only things I want from the build kit would be the cranks and the wheels.
Do you guys those IRO (formula) hubs would hold up to some off road action? IROs to Deep Vs seem pretty tough to me.

Thinking about getting some promenade or soma sparrow bars to rock on my piece.

Waaaah, nobody told me I'd have to wait for my $160 frameset!

Group buys are what they are. You get a good product at a discounted price, but you have limited selection and you wait for it. Kudos to climbhoser for his hard work and forebearance.

I think the only things I want from the build kit would be the cranks and the wheels.
Do you guys those IRO (formula) hubs would hold up to some off road action? IROs to Deep Vs seem pretty tough to me.

Thinking about getting some promenade or soma sparrow bars to rock on my piece.

I think the Formulas are reasonable...I have heard some tales of them falling apart on heavy, heavy duty offroad users. I think if you're wanting to race 'cross then you might want to lace a set of 'cross wheels with beefier hubs. If you're just talkin' a few sections of dirt here and there you'd probably be fine.

The Deep Vs Tony sells are Velocity rims, which are very nice indeed.

The cranks are pretty decent, too. and, you might as well get the BB while you're at it.

I have a set of Deep Vs on my Mark V and they are great! As far as off road usage I would like to fly down some of the fire roads around my part and I bet those formulas would hold up. Might opt for some Surly hubs and build the wheels myself.

The only two bikes I will own will be IROs, ha!

I'd be surprised if hubs would fail before spokes and/or rims, especially for a standard hub and lacing pattern.

full build options will be dealt with when the frames arrive.

So far not the best news, though, but I'm waiting to hear from Tony on this. I asked him about the $350 he quoted me before, and it was my folly thinking that would be the total...he got back to me and said it was for the build kit, and did NOT include the frame and fork price. Oh yeah, and he bumped it from $350 to $380. Doing the math in my head, that means I did a buttload of work to get a full Rob Roy for exactly $59 less and I have to wait 3 months. Granted, it'll be a unique color, but I was expecting at the least $140 off the fully built bike price and not just $60. If the price was $460 I'd think it was a deal, and worth doing, but as is I'm just going to buy one frame and build it with cheap stuff I find around the net. Obviously I'm kind of pissed.

I did e-mail Tony back, twice now, asking him if there was any maneuverability in that price at all. I lobbied on behalf of those who would rather pay $59 more to get a bike now, but I haven't heard anything back. I also asked him if he could discount it for just sending a box full of parts instead of a built bike, as I know many of y'all wouldn't mind putting it together yourselves.

So, I'm bummed because I'm really stoked on the RR and I feel like it was kind of a bust. For those of you who just wanted the frame anyways I'm super glad that you get a great deal on that, at least. Looks like I'm going that route, too.

All I can say is those of you who want a build can lobby Tony all you want. Previously I worried about overwhelming him, but I think he's gotta still be making money on the frames, even a little bit, and even if we're getting them at his cost there's no way the math adds up for a fully built bike at $540. So, I think there's something funny and I want to know what. Not saying he's doing ANYTHING dishonest at all, but he's either taking a huge hit on the full Rob Roy or he's making a mint on us.

Anyways, give me your thoughts...


I knew that price was too good to be true. When you put the final score as $60 less and having to wait 3 months, things don't seem to add up. You are the man though for setting up the group buy because many people are getting a really good deal on the frame. Unless Tony does something on the build price I think I will go ahead and pick and choose my build now.

Isn't the Alfine hub just the disc version of the Nexus 8 Premium? If so, where are you going to mount the disc calipers? I think you should look at the Nexus 8 Premium at aebike for $150.

I am not sure on all of the differences between the two hubs. If you look at the parts explosion of the hubs shimano shows a different part number for the gear box that is inside the Alfine hub. There are quite a few common parts too.

From what I can pick out of shimano's site the Alfine has "highest shimano internal hub efficiancy", can get it in black or silver, 32 hole or 36 hole, takes a 9 speed chain(I don't know if this is a positive thing), and weighs 1590 grams.

The Red Band Nexus hub information chart says "smother rotation", silver only, 36holes only, and 1550 grams.

I don't plan on using the disc brake mounts, but may go for a black one with 32 holes. A Canadian in the utility bike forum said he was able to order one through a local bike shop after they made some phone calls to suppliers for him. I am thinking that they will be available by the time the frame comes in 2008. I asked about it at the bike shop this afternoon but they did not see it in their catalog. Maybe they will be in the next catalog. I am hoping anyway. I may just go with the $150 dollar version and call it good.

From the reviews I've read the Alfine is just a disc version of the Nexus Red Band with color and hole options.

This could be wrong, so take it FWIW.

I've also heard the Red Band and Alfine have the exact same bearings and internals shifting mechanism. I dunno, I'd rather have the Red Band if all that's true, for the lighter weight and no doubt cheaper price.

I also don't mind 36h.

The one thing I would want, however, is the Alfine tapshifter instead of the Nexus twist shifter. I've heard those are orderable through LBS so I'm assuming the Alfine hub would be, too.

These are what I am looking at. It helps to print one off to compare them but the alfine diagram does list which parts are interchangeable with the nexus hub. Some of the differences appear to relate to the type of brake being used but other parts look to be different for possibly other reasons.

I hear the alfine shifter is a better shifter but I am not sure how I would go about mounting it on road bars and the revlo shifter looks cleaner.

http://bike.shimano.com/media/techdocs/content/cycle/EV/bikecomponents/SG/EV-SG-S500-2637_v1_m56577569830609194.pdf

http://bike.shimano.com/media/techdocs/content/cycle/EV/bikecomponents/SG/EV-SG-8R25_BR-IM70-R-2315D_v1_m56577569830609192.pdf

So is it fairly definite that the price of a full build will only be $60 cheaper through this group buy? If that's the case, I'm going to have to go with getting it at full price, unless anyone else can recommend a decent single speed cross bike in the same price range.

I want to make a sort of public apology to Tony. I feel pretty bad about what I said and know I kind of slandered his good name.

not that it was warranted, but Tony does have an interesting communication style...and I'll leave it at that.

However, I did talk with Tony via e-mail and he made an effort in writing to make a little peace on those who desire a build. He didn't give me numbers, but he said he'd like to wait until the frames arrive to delve into build negotiations and that he might be able to source some of the parts like the brakes to cheapen the build. Unfortunately I don't think he wants to really get into it as right now it's speculation on what he could do for us anyways.

I think in the past on group buys that those who want the build were the few and not the many, so he pretty much worked with them on a one off basis. It would be in his best interest to assume the same thing here without having been in discussions about build commitments prior to now, as well. So, I think he stands somewhat skeptical that three or four months from now there will be a huge number of us wanting a full build. It's reasonable to expect FGSS dorks to want to trick out their bikes in a unique manner, too.

So, again, if you guys can forgive me for my blasphemy before. I know Tony is a hard workin' and honest guy, it just caught me off guard. I just felt like there had to be a better deal than the number he shot out to me.

Those of you who want the built bike, unfortunately there can be no number commitment lower than $380 for the build. However, Tony will do what he can, but no promises. For those who just can't wait on faith, I understand time is of the essence and you have to take deals on craigslist and ebay when you can get them. For those of you who will be waiting one way or the other I think you'll find a lower price...by how much I don't know.

Thanks everybody for tuning in. Can't wait to see the rides when they're done!

It's all good. The frame's price is nice enough, considering that there are 3 color choices. If people don't like the price for the build kit, then they'll just have to build with their own parts or suck it up and pay for the IRO build. As for me, I haven't placed my deposit yet, and I'm still trying to figure out which route I'll take, considering that I've never built up a bike with my own two hands before, and that my repair/maintenance skills are extremely limited :rolleyes:

Don't worry about it too much, a one-to-one basis will probably be more beneficial in the end. I know personally I would rather get a "package deal" on parts from him, however not the entire build. Even if we are getting the whole build from Tony for 380, that really is cheaper than anything else that I priced out brand new.

its all love climbhoser!

hope a great deal comes along one way or another.

what is the dead line for this group buy?

what is the dead line for this group buy?

http://www.irofixedgear.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=88

ordered my orange 60cm today.

Ordered my 52cm in orange yesterday. Thanks to climbhoser for organizing this, and I'm glad you've come around!

Based on the last group buy time-frame, I'd say that you shouldn't expect these frames until February or March. Just in time for Cyclocross season to be over!

Just ordered my 60cm orange. Thanks climbhoser! I'm sure we'll be able to work something out on parts.