Training & Nutrition - Fat burning mode

I was surprised to read that fat burning seems to take place when you are at 60-70 % of your Maximum heart rate. I thought the faster I cycled or walked, the more calories I would burn but I guess that's not true.

I am looking forward to getting this heart rate monitor so I can get a better sense of what pace of cycling will bring about the greatest amount of fat burning.

I am cycling mainly to lose weight and find it annoying that I am just building muscle but still not losing weight. My clothes are fitting somewhat looser than a few months ago but not as much as I had hoped.

Why can't I get rid of this weight. Is there a way to burn the calories without putting on muscle.

Justen

Here's a summary about fat burning.

Yes, you do burn more fat while riding when your MaxHR is about 60-70%. But once you stop riding, your fat burning stops.

Now, if you keep your MaxHR at 75% or higher, you'll burn alot of your carbs first, until your glycogen stores are depleted, then you'll start burning fat. The good use is that since your metabolism is skyrocketed, you'll be burning fat even after your ride.

You shouldn't worry about muscle building, think about fat loss, even though your weight is not getting reduced to the point of satisfaction, lowering your bodyfat should be your goal.

I believe that as long as you do not go anerobic, the harder you ride, the more fat you burn. At lower levels of excersise, you burn primarily fat. As your workload increases, you supplement with more glycogen than fat. So long as you stay below the anerobic threshold, you will burn maximum fat with maximum effort.

A heart rate monitor can help you conserve glycogen by keeping your heart rate down. But unless you are doing rides of more than two hours, you are unlikely to deplete your glycogen stores and bonk.

Originally posted by beatphats
Here's a summary about fat burning.

Yes, you do burn more fat while riding when your MaxHR is about 60-70%. But once you stop riding, your fat burning stops.

Now, if you keep your MaxHR at 75% or higher, you'll burn alot of your carbs first, until your glycogen stores are depleted, then you'll start burning fat. The good use is that since your metabolism is skyrocketed, you'll be burning fat even after your ride.

Also remember that burning more calories (higher heart rate) will help with fat loss as you will burn much more calories than you intake in relation to a lower heart rate workout. Therefore, ultimately you will lose more fat with a higher heart rate over a given amount of time.

It's very deceptive to think that lower heart rates lead to more fat loss. It's just not the case @ the end of the day.

Fat burning, (like everything else) actually takes place all the time.

It's just that diet gurus or whatever, are trying to drive home the point that "highest proportion" of fat-to-carb ratio will be metabolized at sub maximal efforts. Generally, exercising on an empty stomach is the best way to trigger fat-buring. As long as you don't go so fast that you quit, you'll burn more fat. The key is exercising at an intensity that allows you to contiune the entire workout time alotted. Clear?

Walking, jogging and or cycling moderately does not produce significant muscle growth.

Well you do burn more calories going faster.

Your body will generally burn either carbohydrates or fat.

Carbohydrates have 3.5 cal per gram. Fats have 7.0 cal per gram. Your body stores the vast majority of energy in the form of fat. It stores only about 2500 cal in carbohydrate (glycogen). 10 lbs of fat would have 32,480 calories. And there aren't many of us who don't have a lot more then 10 lbs of fat.

Thing is that if you are exercising, burning carbo yields twice the energy for the same amount of oxygen as burning fat. Exercising is oxygen limited. So burning carbos gives you twice the power as fat. That is why as you ride harder and harder, you burn less fat. At high levels of exertion, you are probably burning nearly 100% carbohydrate. Eventually, you will bonk (deplete your carbohydrate or glycogen stores). Generally one burns 50 cal per mile (rule of thumb here - varies with weight and speed). So if you are riding really hard, you can use up your carbos in something over 50 miles.

I have found that if I ride really hard, I am ravenous when I get off the bike and I think I gobble up enough to replace everything I burn. But I did get in better shape.

I can burn fat at impressive rates by doing long rides and eating enough to replenish my carbohydrate stores. Of course, this takes a lot of riding day after day. I did 2 weeks of touring in the rockies once and lost 10 lbs of fat in 2 weeks. But I was putting in 70+ miles per day and doing over 4,000' of climbing a day also. There were people on this tour who GAINED weight! Of course, they not only ate the breakfast, lunch and dinner that were provided but they also went out for a second lunch when they finished for the day. Typical second lunch was the biggest cheese burger in town, with the biggest order of fries, washed down by the biggest soft drink (or milk shake - extra points), and then having the biggest sundae offered (usually 2 of these).

On the less extreme side, you can lose weight by exercising and not increasing your intake that much.

Doing some higher intensity work helps to in several ways. You get in better shape. That way you can ride faster at the same heart rate which means you burn calories faster. Getting in better shape is nice because that way even when the weight refuses to go, you at least feel like you are making progress.

Odd thing about fat is that I have noticed my fat deposits shrinking at a pretty constant rate, but my weight loss seems to be episodic. I will lose nothing for a couple of weeks and then on the third week lose 4 lbs. So just tracking things by the scale is an exercise in frustration (at least for me). I think my body is cleverly doing something to try to convince me to stop losing weight.

As others have said you burn a larger percentage of fat at lower intensity but less overall calories as well so you need to extend the duration as well with this strategy to make it effective relative to a higher intensity.At a higher intensity depending on other factors you could well be burning more fat overall due to the greater calories burned .Like Richard said you probably won't gain too much muscle from cycling in fact you may just be seeing more defined muscle from fatloss occurring.However if you are concerned about muscle gain it could be an indication you are still taking in too many calories as it takes a calorie surplus to put on muscle. Lowering the intensity to the optimal fat burning range(% wise )may help here as well as higher intensity will tend to develop more size.With the lower intensity approach avoid starting with depleted glycogen but it helps to limit ingesting too much food/carbs immediately preceeding or during the exercise as having readily available carbs favors their usage over fatburning. The best approach is probably some combination of both strategies as was also said higher intensity also raises the metabolism more resulting in greater fat burn postworkout.Go at a sustainable pace and work at upping both the distance and intensity and don't get overly hung up with scales/heartrate monitors etc.

Hi Justen-

I know you have the knee injury, but I've been busy lately, so no time to respond until now.

First of all, I remember that you've been doing the weight loss thing now for several months.

I know you're on a modified Atkins- plus, you do a lot of cycling too. Didn't you say you did cycling 2 times a day from time to time also? I also seem to remember you saying at one point that you were down to a 1 pound per week loss after seeing an initial big loss of weight.

One thing you want to keep in mind is that weight loss will fluctuate- sometimes, you'll see big losses of weight, sometimes smaller. Sometimes nothing. What you should be focussing on is bodyfat composition, especially since at this point, you've been at this diet thing for a while now.

There are some people who have genetic predispositions for muscle mass gains no matter what. Generally, I believe the general population does not share this genetic predisposition. If there is muscle gain, it is probably a small amount of muscle gain that probably occurs when you exercise. But those gains are very small. Keep in mind that as the fat comes off, you will see more muscle definition too. But generally, cycling will not build muscle substantially. So you do not have to worry about cycling building up muscle while you're trying to burn fat.

If you've started lifting weights since the last time you reported in, you'll want to make sure that your weights are light- you want to do low weights with high reps and 3- 5 sets, and something like 2- 3 times a week working all the major muscle groups. You want to keep those muscles toned because first of all, muscle burns fat, and if you're trying to burn fat, this is a great way to do it. Also, you don't want to look flabby when the fat comes off either- if you shave the fat, but don't have a lot of muscle underneath, you will appear thinner, but upon close inspection, you'll look flabbier than toned people of the same weight! :eek:

I might have said this before, but I do wonder if you're eating enough for the amount of physical activity you do. Cbhungry hit it right on the mark when she was saying that Atkins was mainly designed for those with the sedentary lifestyle. If you are active, you may need to bump up your carbohydrate intake- and that's the good carbohydrates- complex carbs like that heavy grain bread, and nuts and fruits. Skip the simple carbs like white bread and enriched pasta. If you're not eating enough, and you're exercising a lot, initially, you will have weight loss, but over time, the body will work against you- it's primary concern is to have enough energy for you to do all that work, and if you're not providing enough energy in, then the body will work to keep those fat cells from being burned. You will most likely start burning the things that are easier for the body to break down- muscles and body tissue. There still will be some fat loss, but it will be far outweighed (no pun intended) by the loss of muscle and tissue loss. So be careful when it comes to nutrition. It could be what's holding you back. You will probably need to do some experimenting. I always tell people that weight loss is like a chef cooking- you have to play around with what you've got to find out what will work for you optimally. So you may have to play with that diet a bit to find out what will work for you and the amount of physical activity you perform. I highly suggest you seek the advice of a nutritionist, because if you're looking for results, it may take a bit longer if you're guessing vs. having a nutritionist who knows what they're doing.

You really do need a body composition analysis. If you can't get or afford the hydrostatic weighing, find a local gym that will do bodyfat caliper body comp analysis. You could get calipers and do them on your own, but I don't recommend this. You need to get several sites measured- below the scapula, the triceps, the biceps, the thigh, the side of the abdominal, and the quads- those are the minimual amount of sites I would recommend to have measured when having your body comp analysis done. The less sites they measure from, the more inaccurate the results. So try to find a gym that will take measurements from at least 5- 6 sites. You could get one of those bodyfat scales, but I find they can be suspect- if you have a higher proportion of muscle, or if you're retaining water, you may have skewed results. So I'd steer clear of the scales.

Forget about the bathroom scales- it won't do anything at this point but psych you out. You may not be losing pounds, but if your clothes are looser, you need to find out why.

For the exercise, I don't think you need to do anymore cycling- from what I remember from the last time you posted about your plateau, you will probably have to change what you are doing when you cycle, not the fact that you are cycling, or the amount of time you spend doing cycling.

It is true that you burn a higher percentage of fat when you work out at lower heart rates, however, you burn more calories and more fat overall when you are working out closer to your anaerobic threshold. In order to maximize your fat burning potential, remember that fat is burned in the presence of oxygen. So, if you are exercising at too high intensity (out of breath most of the time, high lactic acid concentrate in the blood), you will train the body to use carbohydrate as it's main energy source, since the body will look for the faster ways to get energy when you are at such a high intensity. The body will bypass the aerobic pathways, which uses fat as its primary energy source and go straight to carbohydrates as its primary energy source. I know I did a post a couple of months ago that explained these pathways, so if you're interested in the details, you can do a search under my name in the nutrition and training section.

So, what you want to do is work out as close as you can to anaerobic threshold- when you're just starting to get out of breath and you're feeling the burn in the quads. Working just below that intensity, you'll be burning fat as the primary fuel source. You'll want to train here the majority of the time. But you'll also want to do some LSD exercises too- lower intensity for longer periods of time- maybe 2 times a week. Then you'll want to spend one day a week working out above your anaerobic threshold. This is to train the body to adapt to anaerobic threshold, and therefore push the anaerobic threshold even higher, which means you'll be able to work out even harder, which means even more fat burning capabilities. That is why you need a heart rate monitor- you can feel anaerobic threshold, but you can't quantify it as well, but with a heart rate monitor, you can quantify it, and when you see any slight changes, you can adjust your training. When you have no monitor, you can't feel the slight changes- you have to wait until you start feeling and noticing the overall changes, and even then, you don't know how much of a change it is. Bettter to have the monitor so you can track your progress. Any person who seriously trains, whether for fitness or athletic reasons will have a heart rate monitor and not waste time guessing and ho-humming about where they think they might or might not be with their training. From there, it's time to start varying your aerobics program- think of the FITT formula- Frequency, Intensity, Time and Type of training. I alluded to this earlier- some days doing higher intensity training close to anaerobic threshold (just below it), a day at higher intensity training just above anaerobic threshold to raise anaerobic threshold, a couple of days at moderate intensity, and at least one day of rest. The higher the intensity, the less time you spend training. So, at moderate training intensities, you may want to spend 1- 2 hours training. At high intensity training just below anaerobic threshold, you may want to go for an hour, and at very high intensities, training at above anaerobic threshold, you're training at 45 minutes (this is the "for instance" example of FITT). For all these, you want to spend some time doing intervals, endurance and tempo traininng, power training, and make sure you have a rest day. If you have hills you can train in, you can add in one day of hill training also.


Once you get the monitor, you really need to train properly, and to do that, you need to get tested. That's my national anthem, and everyone knows it by now ( ;) )- the 2x20 Anaerobic Threshold Test I've talked about on pages 91- 94 of "The Heart Rate Monitor Book for Outdoor and Indoor Cyclists", which I believe you bought recently. Then follow the chapter in the book called "Your first 30 days", even if you've been exercising. It will help you to determine how you'll be using your heart rate monitor. If you don't have the book, if you do a search for the 2X20 Anaerobic Threshold test, you'll find it typed out here.

Of course, the easiest way to test yourself is the most expensive way- find a lab in your area that will test you. They'll give you anaerobic threshold, VO2 max, tell you at what heart rate you're burning the most calories from carbohydrates, and what heart rate you're burning the most calories from fat. They'll listen to your fitness goals and tell you exactly what heart rate to work at based on what your fitness goals are. From there, you take that report to the nutritionist, and they'll help to figure out what foods you would need to eat to work optimally for your fitness goals.

I got lucky- my club did a max hr test, an anaerobic threshold test, and they slapped an oxygen mask on me to determine at what heart rate I'm burning the most amount of fat. They had me check my resting heart rate, and they gave me a readout of where I would need to work out to burn the most amount of fat. Since doing that (early wintertime), I've lost 19 pounds, and I've got 20 more to lose, although if I get 15 more pounds off me, I won't stress as much to get the final 5 pounds off. As long as I keep using my heart rate monitor and stick with the program I designed based on the results of my testing, I will continue to lose- I'm sure of it. It's not fast, and I stopped weighing in every week because it wasn't motivating to see no change every week. I now weigh myself every 6- 8 weeks, and seeing the changes keeps me enthused to do keep at it. That same club did a blood panel for me and a bodyfat comp analysis today, and I've shaved off a few percentage points in bodyfat (yay!) over the past few months.

So:

1) Educate yourself a bit better. 2) Get tested for anaerobic threshold 3) See a nutritionist. 4) Get a heart rate monitor 5) Put together an aerobic/cardiovascular training program 6) Put together a weight lifting program.

There are other things you can do, but this should be a start.... once you get back on your feet from your accident that is. You can also PM me for some specifics if you need more info.

Koffee

I know some of thsee things have been said before... but it will help motiviate me to hear myself say them ;) haha

Is there a way to burn the calories without putting on muscle.

The fact that we call the type of body composition change that you and I (and many of us) are working for 'weight loss' is very unfortunate.

Really what we are wanting to do is increase our 'lean body mass' to FAT ratio.

Which in less technical terms means making the ratio or bones/muscle TO fat go up. We want to drop the fat.

Although we will 'lose weight' usually as we increase our lean body mass (LBM) it is more accurate to consider that we are LOSING fat and ADDING muscle.

Here is another part of the puzzle. We are also training several systems in our body. For example our waste elimation system is getting better at what it does when we sweat.. and in a similar way our cardiovascualr system is getting better at what it does which is deliver oxygen to our cells. And the big one of the person wanting to lose weight... our metabolism is being changed little by little to run at a higher rate, and perhaps prefer certain types of fuel at certain times.

These three systems can be evaluated through specific measurements. In the case of our skin... the sweat patches might be a good judge. (only kidding) In the case of our cardiovascular system we can measure scientifically things like VOMax, energy output/heart rate, lactate threshold and so on.

Metabolism is linked with arobic fitness, but other things come into play... our Basal metabolic rate and body composition are mesurements of its progress.

Now to my point (can you believe it?)

Even though adding muscle does not make you lose weight, and contrarily actually ADDS weight to you... it DOES shift your LBM ratio in the RIGHT direction. And before we get too bent overwhat we want is to 'burn fat not add muscle' we have to remind ourselfves what actually burns fat... It happens at the cellular level in our muscles!! ;)

And the more muscle we have... the higher our metabolism, and the MORE FAT we burn.

So in the end not only are you doing good to the bottom line of your fat percentage in body makeup (increasing your LBM) but you are setting up more of the type of flesh you need to actually BURN that dreaded fat!!!!

Instead of paying most of your attention to your weight alone, pay attention to your fat percentage (use calipers or a Tanita scale (these usually overestimate fat % but are accurate in their overall ability to show your relative progress)) and your body sizes like hips waist thighs and so on. Look at yourself in the mirror and pay attention to how your old clothes fit you.

If you exersize regularly, keep refined carbs low (taking into account the amount you might need for special training) moderate fat intake, and eat a few hundred calories less than you need for the day... YOU WILL GET SKINNIER> ;)

cAPS
by the way.. I went from 225 to 170 doing what I suggested. :)

What you say may be true, but in Justen's case, she does NOT want to add any additional muscle, she just wants to burn the fat. Hence the title of her thread- fat burning mode.

She seems to have enough muscle right now, although I do think she needs to maintain her muscle mass so that as the fat comes off, she looks defined and slimmer.

It is possible for someone to burn fat without significant gain of the lean body mass- maintaining muscle mass and upping the cardio, while refining your nutrition by eating smarter.

Without complicating the issue further, it's easier to just talk about ways to shed the fat without adding significant amounts of muscle. Adding muscle is one way to shed the fat, but when you don't want to add substantial amounts of muscle, you have to start thinking a different way.

Without knowing your gender, I do have to say that for men, it's easier to put on muscle because they have vastly more testosterone than women. Testosterone also keeps metabolism high, so when a man decides to lose weight, it's a lot easier for men to do so- it's a genetic predisposition for men to burn more calories easily, and part of this has to do with the predisposition for men to add muscle so easily. For women, we have trace amounts of testosterone, so for us to add significant amounts of muscle that men add to burn the extra fat is difficult- plus with women, we traditionally are supposed to carry fat in the hips, thighs and butt. Most women do not want to put on excess muscle, and it's nearly impossible to do so with a normal lifting regime, and when they post about burning fat without adding additional muscle, they are looking for the alternative to the "increase lean body mass to decrease fat explanation". So you have to think of other alternatives to the traditional sense of burning fat- and there are several ways of doing so.

I know the significance of lean weight- when I had my body comp done yesterday at my club, they calculated my lean (fat-free) weight at 128 pounds. At 5' 1 1/2", my "ideal" weight is supposed to be 120 pounds, and that's what the doctors tell me when I go for my physical every year and they weigh me. But for me to get to 120 pounds, I would have to burn every pound of fat off my body, plus I'd have to do something like cut off my arms or take a leg off to get to 120! I'll never be there, and most physicians never take lean body mass into consideration when they check your weight at every visit. Luckily, being in the fitness field for so long, I am aware of that, so I can discount the doctors and brush them off when they start giving me the "ideal weight" lecture. :rolleyes:

Koffee

Koffee, great job. You said more than what I was about to say. Well, just remember to work easy and work hard. By working hard, you train yourself to use more oxygen before you turn anaerobic, thus you get burn fats at a higher intensity as well. Fat burning will continue even after training as after exercise, metabolism is slightly raised. Eating also raises your metabolism, so try to get small meals in every few hours. You will meet your daily requirements and yet burn more fat at the same time.

Well.. as far as maximizing the loss of fat without the addition of muscle OR significant loss of muscle mass... There are not very many training/eating formulas that exist to do it since it is a very difficult balance to strike... but what I know is this:

You want to stay in an aerobic zone and avoid (for the most part) anaerobic exertion. This is a fairly individual thing and there are lots of net based resources to calculate rough numbers although a VOMax, LT etc test at a local health institute is pretty valuable for finding individual numbers. Training with a heart monitor would be pretty much mandatory.

Hormonally... you want to reduce insulin levels (especially spikes) and INCREASE glucogon levels. This would mean eating a diet that causes minimal sugar metabolism. Once again we are striking a hard balance since the sport of (even recreational) cycling is one that tends to make the body want a lot of glucose and glycogen. And I would be willing to say that it is pretty much impossible to ride without glucose and glycogen (which are the fuels that are burned in the bigger type two muscles that we are now trying to avoid adding) but perhaps something like a cyclical ketogenic diet would be something to consider for this training goal. Doing a web search for 'cyclical ketogenic diet' will turn up information on this type of diet.

In the presence of insulin, when sedentary, we store excess fuel (food) as fat, since sedentary folks have pretty much full glycogen stores. In active people insulin also stimulates muscle synthesis. Insulin is a VERY anabolic hormone. It's hormonal antithesis glucogon is a catabolic hormone that breaks down fat stores. So it is a dominance in that area we want to achieve.

So.. in my humble opinion it is POSSIBLE to burn fat and not add muscle. But it is also pretty hard UNLESS you are fairly sedentary... this is why Adkins works for slow moving folk.

On top of that it is for MOST of us quite hard to add so much muscle that we begin to look bad or freakish, especially when we are involves in a energy depleting sport like cycling.

So... that is the reason I posted what I did before... not to be a weener, but to try to be encouraging. The quest for fitness and fatloss is so much easier for so many when it is done without extreme requisites like "I want to burn fat and NOT add muscle"

Having said that... I still have deep respect for the type of willpower that is needed to train in a way that will produce that result!!! To each their own!

my best wishes for Justin and her goals... AND HER KNEE!!!
cAPS

By the way Koffee... grats on an amazing body comp and flush all that "ideal body weight" stuff down the can along with all the rest of the crap. ;) I only wish I had your body comp numbers. ;)

cAPS