Fifty Plus (50+) - Please....Someone Argue for Titanium

Tuition, car break downs, locust plagues.....every budget contingency is covered-- I might actually be able to afford a new bike next year. The merits of carbon are often mentioned here. OK. Yet, as an old steel bike person, the lure of something metalic is strong. Titanium: what are its virtues & vices? (Titanium riders' views especially wanted.)

I've never ridden one so I can't help you. However, my brother rides 7000-8000 miles a year and had 3 road bikesin his stable, a Merck's steel, titanium (not sure of the manuf) and a carbon. He sold the titanium and spreads the miles over the other two. He did say that if were to get down to just one bike it would be the carbon......I can get his opinion on a comparison of the three if your interested.

Positives:

never rusts
incredibly strong
beautiful to behold
lightweight
lively/snappy feel
like steel but better


Negatives:

expensive to manufacture
expensive to purchase
purchase only from proven builders

You might find this of interest:
http://spokesmanbicycles.com/page.cfm?pageID=331

You can click on the left to read about other materials.

Positives:

never rusts
incredibly strong
beautiful to behold
lightweight
lively/snappy feel
like steel but better


Negatives:

expensive to manufacture
expensive to purchase
purchase only from proven builders


I have a titanium bike and agree wth all of the above. I wasn't actually looking for a ti bike, but found one on sale and really like it. BTW, this is no disrepect to other materials. I think aluminum, steel and carbon are all good--in the hands of the right builder.

[Edit] FWIW--I have five bikes. I ride the ti bike--a Lemond Victoire--more than the others combined. I do not intend to get another bike for a good long time. So, bottom line, I'm happy.

I thought I wanted a carbon fiber bike. I went to a good bike shop in Ft. Worth and tried out several carbon frames and felt like I was riding on a 2x4 w/steel wheels. The owners bike was sitting in the corner and one of the guys said, "Try this one." I had been riding Dura Ace component bikes and this one was Campy. His bike didn't fit me; however, the ride was the most comfortable DF I had ever ridden. I had a custom Moots with Dura Ace components built because I hated the Campy and loved the positive shifting of the Shimano components. I STILL love my Moots--did I mention the frame is guaranteed for life???????------

Now, having said that, I have ordered a Gold Rush Replica for touring and a lot of my everyday riding. I would like to get down to 2 or 3 bikes, and the Moots ti will probably never leave. I have a daughter that is the same height as I am and I will probably leave it to her------------hopefully in 60 years, because at my current age, 60, I think I have just reached middle age.

Ti was the dream material of the 90's, carbon is the new millennium

I have a Heron steel (853), a Lemond Victorie Titanium (Reynolds) and lust after a C-Dale Carbon

I've put about 7,000 miles on the Lemond, which was a warranty replacement for a Klein with a broken seatpost welded clamp. It was a good deal at the time at $750 and is a nice ride. The biggest complaint is the crappy paint job from Trek, the original paint started chipping a year in, the replacement paint is now peeling under sweat stains. So don't EVER buy a painted Ti bike as the paint process is iffy at best.

The C-Dale Synapse I rode (A buddies new ride) is stiff in the b-bracket, where the Lemond is not, yet is still as comfortable over bumps and is a great handling bike. My buddies other rides are a Lemond steel and a C-Dale aluminum time trial bike (which he hates). He too is impressed with the C-Dale Synapse, having tried carbon Trek's, Pinarellos, Lokk and and Orbeas (He found the Orbea way too stiff) and ultimately found the fit of the C-Dale closely matching his Lemond.

Would I buy a titanium again ?. No. No point really as I'm not concerned about the bike lasting 30 years, as it would probably be replaced long before then.

Meantime, the Heron steel rolls along... It's got some rust spots, but nothing to worry about.

SB

While I don't currently ride a Ti bike, I have owned them in the past. While it is expensive, if properly done, a good Ti bike will ride as well as the finest steel bikes, maybe (get ready for the blasphemy....) even a bit better. One thing to consider when pricing is that a very well made carbon bike will be just as expensive, or more than a Ti bike, but the Ti bike will most likely out ride the carbon in it's stress cycle life. In my completely "unscientifically" based opinion, Ti owners tend to keep their bikes for a good long time. Other positives are the fact that they are very easy to take care of (no paint chips, rust, etc...), you don't need to worry (as much) about stripping out threads, and they seemingly never go out of style. As a former frame builder myself, I really do think that Ti is one of the better materials to build with for all the above reasons and more. But do please read that they have to well made, from a reputable builder and preferably with a warranty, just in case. A poorly manufactured Ti bike will fail just as readily as any other poorly made bike.

I've never ridden one so I can't help you. However, my brother rides 7000-8000 miles a year and had 3 road bikesin his stable, a Merck's steel, titanium (not sure of the manuf) and a carbon. He sold the titanium and spreads the miles over the other two. He did say that if were to get down to just one bike it would be the carbon......I can get his opinion on a comparison of the three if your interested.

Yes, jppe, I'd appreciate your bro's comparisons....as well as all those who've posted.
Thanks.

I have a lot of carbon fiber in other sports gear.

Much as I like carbon bikes, I don't like to have to be careful all the time with my gear to the extent carbon demands. So when it comes to a custom, if it were me, I'd lean toward Ti. (I like steel too, but not the rust.)

Ti is the new AL

I've never ridden a titanium bike, but have the parts for one to be built in about a month. My perspective on the use of a ti-bike: I researched my biking wants & needs, which gave me the mindset that my lightweight ti-bike will be for sport-like fun during club rides ... to give me some advantage in keeping up with the other cyclists ... but to also have the "steel is real" feel of the road. If I get into doing prolonged riding trips, I might conceivably consider my ti-bike as a credit-card-tour bike.

On the other hand, for what I consider the fun riding, my ti-bike would not be my first choice for barnstorming over sidewalks (and their curbs) ... on trails ... and on really bad roads at moderate speeds. The Saluki's heavy steel frame has gotten me through three major get-offs since August 1st ... and maybe I'm lucky or the bike just fell on me instead of the road, but zero damage to the heavy steel frame. What I paid for the ti-bike, I could have gotten two Saluki's and all biking accessories (a bunch) that I've bought this year.

Because of the investment I made in the ti-bike, and because of the craftmanship of the ti-bike, and the probability that it will not be used for my barnstorming rides, the ti-bike will probably last long enough for this 50-year old to have it converted to either a wheelchair or a lightweight coffin with DT Swiss wheels.

I've decided to wait for someone to release a flat-bar road bike with a black walnut frame.

--did I mention the frame is guaranteed for life???????------

Hey, just like my Varsity.

TCS

I've decided to wait for someone to release a flat-bar road bike with a black walnut frame.

How about bamboo and hemp fiber? I'm sure you could fit one of these with flat bars. I think it's pretty cool looking.

http://www.calfeedesign.com/bamboo.htm

Yeah, I've seen those bamboo ones before. I was looking for a more upscale wood, I might consider a light maple or a nice dark cherry.

I have a Litespeed Ti, rode it alot first year, but rarely ride it now. I also have a madone 5.2 120 OCLV CF, LOVE the madone.

Ti I notice gives too much for me, I can feel it in corners. Its a poor climber relative to my madone.
But when I do a impoerial century, Ti would be my first chioce, Madone last. This due to long term comfort.

I have a Titanium Colnago CT1 ... though probably cheating a bit, as it has carbon rear (and forks). I also have a steel Merckx, and would agree with most of what's been written here. The Ti is similar to steel, though lighter and 'snappier'. I do most of my riding on the Merckx for its "cruisy" quality, but switch to the Colnago for all my event rides, and when I feel like going for it a little more. Because the Colnago is lighter but equally more responsive, it turns out to be a bit more comfortable on rides over 3-4 hours.

I've ridden a few carbon bikes, which are different of course, but I have no complaints at all with my Ti bike, and don't intend to retire it for quite some time.

B

Not going to Make a case for Ti but I do not like C.F. It may be the wonder material but I am afraid it cannot take the knocks that I would give it and It does not have the stiffness I like. Steel is a comfortable ride but heavy- even if you go to the extent of thin wall material and double or even triple butting. Aluminium used to be very stiff and very heavy But luckily Knowledge of the material has improved the weight and put a bit of flex into a frame. Still a very stiff ride though.

A few years ago I test rode a Bunch of bikes offroad. There was a no-name frame as an example of what not to get. This frame was light and Boy did it Flex. A Titanium frame made for lightness and you could twist the frame by changing position whilst riding it. Then there was a Merlin and a Litespeed. That merlin had the comfort of a Steel frame- Had the lightness of C.F and rode like an aluminium frame. The litespeed may have been as good but it did not fit or feel as comfortable as the Merlin so perhaps not a true comparison.

Now the bikes on that test day covered all the types of bikes around- Full suspension, hardtails and even a couple of rigids. The one thing I did note was that everyone was trying out the Full suspension bikes for comfort. Those in the Know were trying the hardtails as they are more efficient and most of us came to the same conclusion- The bikes that rode the best were the Lightest, and top of the list was the Merlin Ti- followed by the Litespeed and then came the Others- Far behind.

Whether this would transpose to road bikes- I would not like to comment on but The only way to check out the materials is to get a test ride- And even try out a top rated Alumimium aswell for comparison.

So where's your local Big Bianchi stockist as they make in all the materials and in all the grades.


http://www.bianchiusa.com/07_bicycles.html

Yeah, I've seen those bamboo ones before. I was looking for a more upscale wood, I might consider a light maple or a nice dark cherry.

Like this one perhaps- AND you will need a strong stoker as it weighs 125lbs

Love my Seven Axiom. The cats have knocked it over many times. The only damage is to the decals. I opted for the brushed finish instead of the paint.

I just test rode as Lynsky Ti bike on Friday. I'm probably going to get rid of my Specialized S-Works Carbon bike in favor of the Ti. Carbon is light (I'm not, so this is less of an issue for me), however, having had to replace a carbon frame, seat post and handlebars (all at different times), I'm tired of carbon's need to be treated with extreme care. The Lynsky I rode on Friday was very much like the ride of my S-Works. It was comfortable, stiff, climbs well, etc. Cost of the Lynsky is actually a bit less than the S-Works was. I don't buy the marketing hype of "wonder materials", "bike of the new milliennum", etc. I will echo those who believe the thing to look for is a really good builder.

Love my Seven Axiom. The cats have knocked it over many times. The only damage is to the decals. I opted for the brushed finish instead of the paint.

I love my Seven Axiom too, I don't have cats so I removed the decals myself. I'm sure there is someone making custom carbon frames, I just don't know who. Seven makes custom Ti frames. A custom frame is better than off the rack. The bike fits like a glove.

Like this one perhaps- AND you will need a strong stoker as it weighs 125lbs

Impractical yes, but what a gorgeous work of art.

I love my Seven Axiom too, I don't have cats so I removed the decals myself. I'm sure there is someone making custom carbon frames, I just don't know who. Seven makes custom Ti frames. A custom frame is better than off the rack. The bike fits like a glove.

Screwed up again, its an Alaris I have, not the axiom but I still love it. Lots of custom carbon out there from Seven and Serrota among others, just a lot more money for the frame - the Seven carbon frames run about 2x the cost of my Alaris frame.

It's far easier to make a case for any well built bike that fits you properly.

I own three titanium bikes, they're great but they're not greater than the steel or CF bikes I own. They were purchased mainly because I liked the looks of them (Moots) or because I had a specific custom project in mind (Davidson) or because I wanted a travel bike with couplers (Moots again.)

The ride can be great or it can stink depending on the quality of the frame and how well it is designed for your size and riding style. As far as other materials go, well the weaknesses that titanium addresses are greatly overstated in my experience. Rust - c'mon - no one's steel frame is going to rust away during their riding lifetime if it's properly cared for. As far as the delicate nature of CF and the care it requires, if you respect your equipment it will last forever while no poorly treated frame (regardless of material) is going to hold up to shabby care.

Buy titanium because you like the way it looks, fits and because you can afford it. It's not a miracle material, certainly no better in any tangible way than steel.

Like this one perhaps-

Wow! Beautiful woodwork!

I have a Titanium Colnago CT1 ... though probably cheating a bit, as it has carbon rear (and forks). I also have a steel Merckx, and would agree with most of what's been written here. The Ti is similar to steel, though lighter and 'snappier'. I do most of my riding on the Merckx for its "cruisy" quality, but switch to the Colnago for all my event rides, and when I feel like going for it a little more. Because the Colnago is lighter but equally more responsive, it turns out to be a bit more comfortable on rides over 3-4 hours.

I've ridden a few carbon bikes, which are different of course, but I have no complaints at all with my Ti bike, and don't intend to retire it for quite some time.

B


Carbon/Ti is my choice. If I ever have to get down to one road bike it will be my Airborne Manhattan Project. Great all around bike. As to the lifetime warranty, it is only good if the company survives!

Lusting after a Titus Exogrid frame.

I have a friend who's opinion of bikes is very credible, and he just traded a Seven Axiom for a Look CF frame. He says the Seven was noticably more compiant over rough roads, but he likes the geometry of the Look better. I've had a quick spin on both frames -- the fit was poor as he is taller -- and that was my impression also. Meaning, the Ti really felt good, much better than the DF. But the geomtry of the Look was more stable, even for a 16 pound bike.

It seems like there are fewer choices for Ti off-the-rack, but the custom options are good. That's what I would do if I went from steel to ti...I would pay the freight and go the custom route and get it right the first time.

During the mid-90's, I raced a Performance Ti road bike. The frame cost $850 or so, primarily because it was made of Chinese titanium in a Chinese factory to a US design. I broke the first one on an early-season training ride - the top of the seat tube shattered from the force of the too-short seat post. I got a free warranty replacement. This one broke from a spiral fracture of the right chain stay (I'm a road sprinter, but I'm not strong enough to break chainstays). The third one was also developing a spiral chainstay fracture when I was hit by a car, completely demolishing the frame. So much for Chinese-built Ti frames.

My track bike is aluminum. My road bike is cf. My fixie commuter/winter/all round fun bike is steel. All have carbon forks. I don't think I'd buy another Ti frame. If cheap Ti breaks that easily, I can't see expensive Ti holding up that much better.

- L.

I

It seems like there are fewer choices for Ti off-the-rack, but the custom options are good. That's what I would do if I went from steel to ti...I would pay the freight and go the custom route and get it right the first time.

No doubt.....but I could go to Italy for 2 weeks with what it would cost me for the custom. Listening to the ebb and flow of opinion......maybe I'm back to tickin' off miles on the fits-me-glove-like Riv. A friend hit a dog and endoed on his Roubaix Pro frameset built up from scratch with $700 wheelset and ultra everything. He's now unsure of the reliability of his frame...which takes something out of his riding on that bike.

But, then, it would be nice to live with a carbon bike for a while, or then again, see the Italian coast, the Dolomites, Lake Como...... I need a rich, doting uncle.

- i love my all-Ti Merlin (Fortius)... purchased for less than what another LBS wanted for an Orbea Onyx (which, when i test rode it, felt like i was straddling a big piece of cardboard, i.e., 'dead' feel; note however, that i do like CF, as one of other favorite rides is a Pedal Force RS2, purchased via a BF group buy for $500 earlier this year - funny how a $500 CF frame felt better to me than a 'boutique' CF bike - go figure?)

- i live on a salt-water peninsula, so i use stainless chains, keep everything lubed, etc.... i don't have to worry about my Merlin...

- and the bike and its ride? simply wonderful! comfortable (but then i also only use Brooks saddles)... i will never sell my Merlin, while i wouldn't hesitate to sell any of my other bikes, including a steel Serotta...

During the mid-90's, I raced a Performance Ti road bike. The frame cost $850 or so, primarily because it was made of Chinese titanium in a Chinese factory to a US design. I broke the first one on an early-season training ride - the top of the seat tube shattered from the force of the too-short seat post. I got a free warranty replacement. This one broke from a spiral fracture of the right chain stay (I'm a road sprinter, but I'm not strong enough to break chainstays). The third one was also developing a spiral chainstay fracture when I was hit by a car, completely demolishing the frame. So much for Chinese-built Ti frames.

My track bike is aluminum. My road bike is cf. My fixie commuter/winter/all round fun bike is steel. All have carbon forks. I don't think I'd buy another Ti frame. If cheap Ti breaks that easily, I can't see expensive Ti holding up that much better.

- L.

Cheap crap breaking should not be used as a reference point. Says more about the cheapness than the material.

If cheap Ti breaks that easily, I can't see expensive Ti holding up that much better.The issue here is poor-quality titanium frames, made in poor-quality manufacturing facilities, by poor-quality builders. Treat yourself to a latest-generation Merlin or similar titanium frameset and that issue will be completely resolved.
Best wishes and good luck with your next bicycle choice.

Bikes I ride regularly: Serotta Ti, Kestrel 200sci, Santana Scandium; Raleigh 531c.

Ranked in order of comfort and enjoyment:
long rides 70-100+miles: Kestrel, Serotta, Raleigh, Santana
Medium rides 40-70 miles: Serotta, Kestrel, Raleigh, Santana
Short rides 20-40 miles: Santana, Serotta, Raleigh, Kestrel

My riding partner went from a Kestral CF to a Litespeed Ti. He likes his Litespeed but preferred the ride of the CF and plans to go back. I think that comfort has a lot to do with geometry and you can make both CF and Ti bikes ride hard and you can also make them more forgiving, so the material may not be as big as factor. Ti is pretty difficult to weld that is why going to a supplier that has a lot of experience can make a difference. I believe most of the people who use to build Litespeeds left for smaller companies. My personal opinion is that CF is more bang for the buck but may be more delicate that Ti in the long run.

FWIW, last year I received a Masi Gran Criterium S for a 60th birthday present. It's an aluminum frame with CF fork and rear triangle. Having owned steel and TI bikes, I was always death on AL bikes. Hated the harsh ride and attendant clacking sound. I would have bet I'd never own anything that had aluminum as part of the construction. This bike, however, is a gem. Love the ride and responsive nature of it.

CC-From JPPE's brother on his experiences with different frames and materials:


I've had experience with a 1983 steel Performance Campione, a 1997 steel DeRosa Neo-Primato, a 1999 steel Merckx Corsa 01, a 1999 titanium Merckx built by Litespeed, a 2004 carbon fiber Trek 5900, and a 2001 aluminum Cervelo P2K.

My favorite bike is my carbon fiber Trek 5900. I especially like the way it seems to absorb road vibration. The ride is silky smooth, plus it's very stable, and very light. And my impression is that it's very solid underfoot.

My first experience with a steel bike was the 1983 Performance Campione, which handled terribly. It was really hard to ride it in a straight line. I didn't realize it was a piece of junk until I got the 1997 DeRosa Neo Primato, a steel frame.

With the DeRosa, I could suddenly ride the bike with no hands, and ride a straight line up the road. I loved the DeRosa, but its chain stay cracked, and Gita replaced it under warranty with the Merckx titanium frame (made by Litespeed).

I never really liked the titanium, as I felt its ride was too harsh. Maybe the problem was the fork, which was carbon bladed, but had an aluminum crown and a steel steerer tube. But the frame was very well made, handled fine. The welds looked great, and the frame probably was built to last forever. So I prefer steel over titanium for smoothness of ride. But many people swear titanium has all the great ride qualities of steel, plus weighs less and doesn't rust.

I also still have the Merckx Corsa 01, which is steel. It handles fine, but the ride quality isn't quite the same as the DeRosa. It's hard to explain, but just not quite as comfortable. The Merckx uses a heavier grade of steel, which affects things somewhat. But maybe's it's just the paint job, the DeRosa was a beautiful Ferrari red with chromed lugs, and the Merckx a rather ordinary looking metallic black.

My only experience with aluminum is my Cervelo time trial bike. My general impression is that aluminum would be very solid, but not all that comfortable. But I know three people that prefer the solid feedback they get from aluminum over the numb feeling that carbon fiber provides. Two of those riders are cat 2 racers, and the third is a friend that commutes to work in Charlotte.

So there's really no right or wrong answer. What I seem to prefer in a bike is something that rides really smooth, and tends to stay in a straight line by itself, like my carbon Trek. But others prefer something like an aluminum Cannondale, which has a very solid feel, and also has geometry that provides more responsive handling.

My big suggestion to someone buying a new bike is to look at the frame warranty. I want at least five years, and some offer lifetime. Giant and Trek offer long term warranties on their carbon bikes. I think Giants are a really good value, if you're not looking at their most expensive, "Advanced" model. I love the looks of Pinarellos and Colnagos, but 2 years is not long enough for something that isn't repairable. With carbon fiber bikes, when they do develop a problem, it's often not related to fatigue, but to a deterioration in the composite material which can be related to time or to manufacturing technique.

Jppe...thanks to you and your brother for the thoughtful reply. I'd like to think that all such sound information and opinion feeds into choice making that is reasoned and deliberate....not just "Cool paint job" or "So and so is a strong rider and he has one". Again, I appreciate the time everyone has taken to reply (suggestions for the teakwood frames excepted!)

If I didn't already have 3 steel bikes, a Neo Primato (red, of course) would be a gorgeous purchase even just as a looker.

Add this http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=335620 to the pile of endorsements...falling off your roof rack @ 70MPH and living to tell the tale...

I want to echo the comment that much of what we are seeing here about ride quality has to do with a) how the the bike fits you and b) the geometry of the frame (not necessarily the same things). And, I will add c) the wheelset d) the tires e) the seatpost f) the construction of the frame tubing g) your weight h) the fork and its rake and i) did I mention how the bike fits you?

I have ridden steel (Schwinn Le Tour late - 70's early 80's and Basso Loto early to mid 90's) AL (Alan early 80's and Cannondale CAAD 5 early - mid 90's to early 2000's) and Ti (Merlin Extralight) early 2000's till now.

Taking all of the above into consideration; frames made of any material can be right or wrong for you. They can be harsh or plush, they can be stiff or whippy. Moreover any frame can fail, even ones made by top names.

I am riding the Merlin and will for the foreseeable future. Coupled with the Toploino wheels, the Look HSC 5SL fork, Bold Precision Ti seat post (etc etc etc) it is a very, very good ride. However, I liked all of those bikes and would ride them again. I do wish I had kept the Basso just cause it was such a good looking bike.

Finally, to add fuel to the fire, unless you are absolutely dead positive sure and certain of what you want and need in a frame and absolute faith in the builder (or have a bunch of bucks), I would caution you about getting a custom built frame.