View Full Version : Slowing down traffic, blocking bike lane to do it !
fordfasterr
08-20-07, 11:36 AM
watch this video:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=K1umvRline0
They have disabled the comments on this one... I wonder if anyone knows how to copy the video, re-upload it and then enable comments so we can speak our minds about it ...
They made these oval shaped concrete islands, placed them on either side of the road, and use it to slow traffic... the problem is that these things ARE IN THE BIKE LANES !
I would sue the city, or require them to re-draw the bike lanes around them, essentially merging both traffic lanes into 1 ... oops !!!!!
fordfasterr
08-20-07, 11:42 AM
Here are screen-shots from the video:
http://velocide.com/images_old/2007_pics/misc/sow_down_block_bike_lane_1.jpg
http://velocide.com/images_old/2007_pics/misc/sow_down_block_bike_lane_2.jpg
http://velocide.com/images_old/2007_pics/misc/sow_down_block_bike_lane_3.jpg
http://velocide.com/images_old/2007_pics/misc/sow_down_block_bike_lane_4.jpg
http://velocide.com/images_old/2007_pics/misc/sow_down_block_bike_lane_5.jpg
http://velocide.com/images_old/2007_pics/misc/sow_down_block_bike_lane_6.jpg
timmhaan
08-20-07, 11:46 AM
what the?! that's just stupid.
fordfasterr
08-20-07, 11:48 AM
In the last pic, you can see that the car has moved over the center double yellow lines in order to give (HIMSELF) some space from the barrier (albeit, still under construction) ..
Now, add a cyclist between the divider, and the car ( a small compact car at that ... ) but replace it with an SUV ...
cyclist = dead.
timmhaan
08-20-07, 11:50 AM
so, according to their logic the only way to slow down traffic is by making the road more dangerous. tax dollars well spent! :rolleyes:
sggoodri
08-20-07, 11:56 AM
The city of Durham, NC recently added obstructions like these to an important bike route as a "traffic calming" measure without consulting the city's bike/ped committee, who are now upset about it because the cyclists now have to take the lane at each one of these, and face increased crash risks, particularly at night.
A more appropriate design for a street where motorist-cyclist overtaking is a concern would be 25 mph speed humps.
sggoodri
08-20-07, 12:08 PM
Now, add a cyclist between the divider, and the car ( a small compact car at that ... ) but replace it with an SUV ...
cyclist = dead.
As long as the cyclist takes the lane properly, narrow lanes on a 25 mph street are not a big deal. Drivers follow the cyclist and pass when it's safe to do so. On downtown streets with slow traffic and lots of pedestrian/parking/junction activity I prefer to ride in the center of the lane anyway.
The problem with these bulbouts on a suburban through road is that the cyclist feels social pressure (read: potential harassment) to move to the right between the bulbouts to allow traffic to pass, and then they must move back into the lane for each one. This places an undesirable burden on the cyclist and creates a hazard at each bulbout if the cyclist doesn't merge left properly or in time; it would be better for the street to be a consistent width.
Once a cyclist crashes into one of these, the city will be pressured to remove them or reflectorize them. reflectorizing all of them will make it easier for speeders to avoid them at night, and presumably the majority local drivers will get used to them, so I wonder how long the traffic calming effect will last.
fordfasterr
08-20-07, 12:12 PM
The woman who is "for them" in the video complains that her SUV is so big that she might have trouble getting around them safely ... lol
Miserably poor and unimaginative design. All they had to do was to leave a cut-through for bikes, tho' I prefer speed cushions with a gap between the kerb and the cushion.
CommuterRun
08-20-07, 04:17 PM
The city of Durham, NC recently added obstructions like these to an important bike route as a "traffic calming" measure without consulting the city's bike/ped committee, who are now upset about it because the cyclists now have to take the lane at each one of these, and face increased crash risks, particularly at night.
A more appropriate design for a street where motorist-cyclist overtaking is a concern would be 25 mph speed humps.
Obstructions like that mean the cyclist should take the lane through the entire stretch of road. I certainly would.
boilermaker1
08-20-07, 04:58 PM
Similar chicanes were installed on the street by a local playground, it certainly slows traffic down and is beneficial.
When I'm biking past I slow down too; take a look around and watch out for cars. Ya gotta take care, easy enough.
chocula
08-20-07, 05:08 PM
Miserably poor and unimaginative design. All they had to do was to leave a cut-through for bikes, tho' I prefer speed cushions with a gap between the kerb and the cushion.
Like this?
http://www.atlantabike.org/images/Bulb-out_w_bike_pass-thru.jpg
fordfasterr
08-20-07, 05:55 PM
It would seem that many cyclists lack the skills necessary to shoot the gap between the island and the curb and/or are too fearful to just take the lane.
I would not be afraid to take the lane, but I would not be dumb enough to ride the gutter (what you call the gap) !!!
I have no problem with taking the lane, but I ride a fixed gear, and it looks like my pedals would hit the curb if I tried to ride through the gap. IMO, these obstacles, however well intentioned are dangerous to some users of the road, especially at night. The one that chocula posted is a much better design that accomidates all users of the road.
Da Tinker
08-20-07, 06:10 PM
Why do you think shooting the gap is dumb?
Where does all the trash on the road typically wind up? In the gutter, in that gap. Shooting the gap limits maneuverability for a short interval, and woudl, I think, increase the chances of flats.
Now the lady in the video says drivers are going slower. What about the influence she is having, standing out in the open with a radar gun? From personal experience, I can tell you that standing at teh end of your driveway with a blow drier will make drivers slow down.:D
so, according to their logic the only way to slow down traffic is by making the road more dangerous.
You hit the nail on the head. This set-up seems like a real hazard to my eyes.
... Brad
Daily Commute
08-20-07, 07:00 PM
Are those even bike lanes? They look like gutters/shoulders, where we shouldn't be anyway. But I agree, bump outs are generally bad for cyclists.
Blue Order
08-20-07, 07:16 PM
The kind of great new idea that makes lawyers rich...
Bekologist
08-20-07, 07:38 PM
come on, daily commute, even jhon forester condones and endorses the use of shoulders as well as bike lanes to keep to the side of traffic - vehicularily, when the shoulder or bike lane is safe for use and not conflicting with the intended destination of the bicyclist -
not with the bulbouts like those pictured in the above thread, though!
Jerseysbest
08-20-07, 07:49 PM
Build some ramps on either side and just ride over it.
Dchiefransom
08-20-07, 10:17 PM
I don't think it's a big deal at all. In fact, it can be fun to shoot the gap, especially at speed.
Am I the only one reading this thread that's ridden in and around these traffic calming features?
They've got some on Willow in Menlo Park, Ca, but they left a 3' bike lane between the curb and traffic. I have no idea what they were trying to do.
The ones in the video are not far enough into the lane to make me slow down, but then I know where the right side of my car is in the lane.
They shouldn't call them "traffic calming measures". These sorts of things piss me off when I'm in my bike or car. They're traffic irritants to people who know how to drive properly, and they're in the way when on the bike. Speed bumps are just as effective at slowing traffic down without the pointless obstruction.
I wonder how many accidents these stupid things are going to cause?
Daily Commute
08-21-07, 03:41 AM
syn0n, these bump-outs have at least one advantage over speed bumps--most police officers and fire fighters oppose speed bumps because they slow down emergency vehicles.
pmseattle
08-21-07, 07:06 AM
I don't think it's a big deal at all. In fact, it can be fun to shoot the gap, especially at speed.
Am I the only one reading this thread that's ridden in and around these traffic calming features?
They have these in my area, and I have had no real problem with them. I do roll through the gutter area most of the time if there is a car behind me.
fordfasterr
08-21-07, 07:29 AM
Here is the problem with those gutters trapped between the island and the curb...
THEY FILL UP WITH TRASH - the street sweepers cannot reach them ! So they are eternally filled with leaves and other junk ...
What happens if there is a drain grate in there and its covered with leaves and trash .... you ride over it and then go head first into the curb !
I'm going to go buy some denture glue right now ... just so I can mail it to the people who ride in " the gutters " ...
sggoodri
08-21-07, 07:37 AM
It would seem that many cyclists lack the skills necessary to shoot the gap between the island and the curb and/or are too fearful to just take the lane.
My son's Burley trailer won't fit, my friend's recumbent trike won't fit, a pedal would likely strike the curb if riding uphill, and these areas fill up with glass and other trash.
sggoodri
08-21-07, 07:45 AM
Obstructions like that mean the cyclist should take the lane through the entire stretch of road. I certainly would.
So would I, but some motorists and cyclists consider that to be a taboo move, and I've heard from a number of local cyclists who don't like doing it, and there are a number of police in our area who would likely "encourage" cyclists to move into the shoulder area between bulbouts.
maddyfish
08-21-07, 08:42 AM
Why not just enforce the speed limits? Write a few hundred tickets in a day, and it should take care of itself. It makes me sick that we waste so much money on the police, and they refuse to actually enforce the law.
ghettocruiser
08-21-07, 09:41 AM
Here is the problem with those gutters trapped between the island and the curb...
THEY FILL UP WITH TRASH - the street sweepers cannot reach them ! So they are eternally filled with leaves and other junk ...
My roads only have the conditions you describe in for a few weeks in the fall.
I rarely ride that close to the curb, but this has nothing to do with sewer grates concealed by leaves resulting in the need for dental work.
And I'm still waiting for someone to suggest hopping the curb and riding through the flower bed.
make 'em bigger. and put some in the middle of the road so cars have to dodge around them. be like a slow moving video game.
ChipSeal
08-21-07, 08:50 PM
They made these oval shaped concrete islands, placed them on either side of the road, and use it to slow traffic... the problem is that these things ARE IN THE BIKE LANES ! -fordfasterr
Forcing bicycles into traffic the lane will definitely slow traffic down.:rolleyes:
Some residents are complaining that it will reduce parking...:eek: They can park on that street?
Of course reducing the free tax payer subsidized parking on the street will offend some. I can think of nothing better to do with all that prime real estate than to provide parking for motorists. :p
donnamb
08-21-07, 09:24 PM
I don't think it's a big deal at all. In fact, it can be fun to shoot the gap, especially at speed.
Am I the only one reading this thread that's ridden in and around these traffic calming features?
I've ridden in and around lots of different kinds of traffic calming features, but none quite like this one. Our city's bike coordinator would not allow anything to interfere with existing bike lanes, and as it is, he's continually pushing to get as many as possible widened. We've got a lot of trailer pullers around here, myself included. We've also got too many bicycles on the roads for that kind of narrowing. Perhaps in a place where few ride, it wouldn't matter so much.
I guess I would reserve judgment on this feature, since I've never ridden around it specifically, but the width does make me leery. The one thing about your bike handling abilities, Pete, is that they're not the norm. Most people just aren't going to be that skilled.
chevy42083
08-21-07, 09:48 PM
IMO, all of those curbs pictured in the OP were at the edge of the road... that's not gonna slow me down at ALL. I'll drive just as fast, just won't cut the corner. I KNOW where the edge of my vehicle is. Then again, not everyone has road raced their vehicles :D
With that said... complete waste of money, and just in the way.
Nycycle
08-21-07, 09:52 PM
I have never seen such a thing, and where I live in TAYLORSVILLE UTAH all the bike lanes are being removed.
it looks funny, you can plainly see where the City border is, as you are leaving a bike lane appears, as well as a bus stop.
I will be taking a real serious look at local politicians this election. I steamed now, on the war path.
Bushman
08-21-07, 10:12 PM
those chicanes dont slow me down in my car. I look at them as an opportunity to practice slalom driving at high speed. :)
Mr. Underbridge
08-22-07, 07:41 AM
It would seem that many cyclists lack the skills necessary to shoot the gap between the island and the curb and/or are too fearful to just take the lane.
You're absoultely right - I lack the skills to ride at speed in a 1-foot wide strip filled with debris, pavement seams, storm drains, and a variable slope into the curb. Furthermore, I lack the desire to learn that particular skill. As such, that barrier is a really dumb thing to put in a bike lane.
-=Łem in Pa=-
08-22-07, 07:52 AM
"Traffic Calming Measure" is TND promoting developer buzzphrasing.
Developers push this stuff and city planners soak it right up.
To be succinct and to the point, when has a developer ever done
anything that was really useful or a benefit to the public lately ?
Why would this stuff be any different ?
Jeronimo_
08-22-07, 05:54 PM
What a waste of money. As far as the curb gap goes, anyone who can hold a straight line for ten feet should be able to shoot it. If you don't like it, take the lane. If you're afraid of both, think about public transportation.
Jeronimo_
08-22-07, 05:55 PM
The one thing about your bike handling abilities, Pete, is that they're not the norm. Most people just aren't going to be that skilled.
Pete's a hack, don't let him fool you.
SweetLou
08-22-07, 08:33 PM
I wonder if anyone knows how to copy the video, re-upload it and then enable comments so we can speak our minds about it ...
If you are using FireFox or IceWeasel, there is an extension called Download Embedded that will easily download the videos.
As for posting on YouTube, I have no idea. I only watch the videos.
fordfasterr
08-23-07, 05:29 AM
What a waste of money. As far as the curb gap goes, anyone who can hold a straight line for ten feet should be able to shoot it. If you don't like it, take the lane. If you're afraid of both, think about public transportation.
I'm real scared to ride on the road, that is why I ride on the sidewalk in the wrong direction at night without reflectors.
CmpsdNoMore
08-23-07, 06:47 AM
"I think they're pretty"
Best...line...ever...
Those things are totally bogus, definitely wouldn't slow me down while driving.
Mr. Underbridge
08-23-07, 07:47 AM
What a waste of money. As far as the curb gap goes, anyone who can hold a straight line for ten feet should be able to shoot it. If you don't like it, take the lane. If you're afraid of both, think about public transportation.
As I mentioned before, holding a line is harder when you're riding over storm drains, sticks, leaves, glass, and pavement seams . And if you're going to force people to merge in/out of the road, why have a bike lane at all?
The most dangerous part is where the asphalt of the road meets the gutter. You'll often have a nice inch-wide gap there that's great for grabbing tires.
These features when located in an area where there is snow or falling leaves will fill up. where I live they would be full of sand and leaves. And as one poster said the street sweepers can't get to them and from my experience those guys don't get out and sweep by hand. I also agree that the police don't seem to feel like working all that hard to slow people down where I live.
If they want to slow down motor traffic, why not put in islands rather than curb bulbs. A nice big fat island that squeezes the road in the same way as a bulb would have the same effect, yet not mess with cyclists. And if motorists hit the darn things... well, that's their problem.
Heck they could plant trees in these, and put reflectors on them and everything. The goal is to slow motorists, so put the obstruction in their way.
joejack951
08-23-07, 08:20 AM
If they want to slow down motor traffic, why not put in islands rather than curb bulbs. A nice big fat island that squeezes the road in the same way as a bulb would have the same effect, yet not mess with cyclists. And if motorists hit the darn things... well, that's their problem.
Heck they could plant trees in these, and put reflectors on them and everything. The goal is to slow motorists, so put the obstruction in their way.
The only way to truly narrow the path for wider vehicles involves making the width too narrow for a motorist and cyclist to safely fit next to each other. An island or a bulb out has the same effect and both are annoying when the roadway width would otherwise be wide enough to share.
That road just need some more slow moving vehicle drivers :)
The only way to truly narrow the path for wider vehicles involves making the width too narrow for a motorist and cyclist to safely fit next to each other. An island or a bulb out has the same effect and both are annoying when the roadway width would otherwise be wide enough to share.
That road just need some more slow moving vehicle drivers :)
True all around, but those slow drivers just seem to be hard to find. And if some engineer is trying to slow autos, perhaps they should just put obstacles in the motorists' way vice the cyclists'.
eofelis
08-23-07, 10:43 AM
Like this?
http://www.atlantabike.org/images/Bulb-out_w_bike_pass-thru.jpg
I had to do a doubletake on this pic. Then I had to print it out and take a short walk down Elm Street to confirm that it is where I thought it is. :D How'd you end up with this pic? This is in Grand Junction, CO.
This city does fairly well accomodating cyclists when designing roads. There are a couple riders in the city's road engineering dept. The county is another matter, my bf works the county road & bridge doing GIS work and gets a good inside look.
noisebeam
08-23-07, 10:56 AM
This is a nice overview of traffic calming designs including (a debatable perhaps) assesment of impact to different modes of travel:
http://www.tempe.gov/tim/Traffic/pdfs/FINALNTMP6.26.07.pdf (start with section 4.0, The Toolbox)
Al
cc_rider
08-23-07, 11:37 AM
I'd probably "shoot the gap", but in my opinon as an architect it seems to be an exceedingly poor design (my first thoughts were "incompetent" and "stupid").
Where is this located? I'm tempted to call thier state licensing board and make a comment for their file.
There are a few situations similar to that around here, and they do tend to fill with trash and gravel.
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