Where would you ride on this road? [Archive] - Page 6

Helmet Head

08-24-07, 01:58 PM

There seems to be a high correlation between people who make disparaging remarks about Wikipedia content like this: "unlike Wikipedia onto which anyone can post information regardless of the existence of supporting data and credentials."

And people who answer questions like, "What have been your contributions to Wikipedia?" with "None".

None. I don't go around presenting myself as a definitive authority on matters especially in matters of life and safety. I would rather take the honorable approach of understanding the limits of my "expertise".

"Seek first to understand, then to be understood." Stephen Covey
There is no topic about which you feel you know enough to be able to contribute about it on Wikipedia? Maybe the articles on your favorite books, movies, hobbies or vacation spots? Your home town? The organization for which you work? You don't know anything with authority?

Helmet Head

08-24-07, 02:06 PM

Some people, like Serge, are very fearful when riding bikes and believe that your front tire can blow at any moment, and that could cause you to swerve or fall to your left.

Is it not true that your front tire can blow at any time? Is it not possible that a front tire blowing could cause to swerve or fall to your left?

Seriously. It has never happened to me, but I've heard other cyclists talk about it.

I mean, I've gotten a front flat before, but it wasn't a sudden explosion and I didn't lose control.

MSPD

08-24-07, 02:38 PM

There seems to be a high correlation between people who make disparaging remarks about Wikipedia content like this: "unlike Wikipedia onto which anyone can post information regardless of the existence of supporting data and credentials."

And people who answer questions like, "What have been your contributions to Wikipedia?" with "None".

There is no topic about which you feel you know enough to be able to contribute about it on Wikipedia? Maybe the articles on your favorite books, movies, hobbies or vacation spots? Your home town? The organization for which you work? You don't know anything with authority?

Flak and no substance. It's really odd that you focus me and my style rather than on the content of what I'm saying. Very strange. :beer:

Off to the family vacation...ride safely everyone and enjoy Labor Day.

Helmet Head

08-24-07, 03:12 PM

Like a meteor could fall on you at any moment. Worrying about motorists passing you within three feet because you could have "a blow out at any time" is evidence of some very irrational fears.

Like a meteor could fall on you and make you swerve or fall to your left. Worrying about these exceedingly rare occurrences and using them as a justification for wanting to be wrapped in a six foot wide safety bubble is evidence of some very irrational fears.
Forget the "fear", stick with analysis.

Is it as rare as a meteor?

In a lifetime of cycling, how likely is it that a front tire might blow for a given cyclist, enough to cause him to lose control and swerve or fall to the left? Will this happen only to 1 out of 100,000,000+ cyclists (which would begin to liken it to being worried about being hit by a meteor, which supposedly happens to about 1 person every 50 years), or is it significantly more likely, like 1 out of 10,000 cyclists, 1,000, 100 or 10?

And given a group of, say, 1,000,000 motorists, who regularly pass cyclists with less than 3 feet of lateral clearance despite speed differentials above 30 mph, how many, after a lifetime of driving, will end up clipping a cyclist due to an oversight on their part or an unexpected swerve or fall on the part of the cyclist? 0? 1? 2? 4? 8? 20? 50? 100? 250? 500? 1,000? 2500? 5,000? 10,000?

I don't know what these numbers are - no research on it as far as I know.

Never-the-less, it seems likely to me that the odds of a cyclist being clipped by a close-passer are significantly higher than the odds of being hit by a meteor. I prefer to err on the side of caution and ride, including riding in a manner that encourages motorists to drive, accordingly.

Helmet Head

08-24-07, 03:14 PM

Flak and no substance. It's really odd that you focus me and my style rather than on the content of what I'm saying. Very strange. :beer:

Off to the family vacation...ride safely everyone and enjoy Labor Day.
Have a good one!

I enjoyed our conversation, at least in the early phases.

Allister

08-24-07, 05:06 PM

Why do you think I'm making ANY assumptions about your skill level and experience of riding on the road? It's very interesting that you think I'm doing that.

Well, you're insistence that anything I say that doesn't agree with your kockamamie theories must therefore be wrong was a clue. (see below - you're still doing it)

You're some guy on the internet, I have no idea how much skill and experience you have, just as you have no idea how much I have. But I can tell you this, I know dozens of cyclists with decades of all kinds of cycling experiences and extraordinary biking skills who do really scary stuff in traffic. They're the ones who like to emphasize how sometimes stuff happens and there is nothing you can do about it, and don't seem very interested in talking about whether or not there was something you could have done about it if you roll back the clock 30-45 seconds prior to the collision, and analyze what happened, and why.

Do you think that applies to me?

In one classic conversation with such a guy (state racing champion, toured all over the world, etc.), he was telling me about why his wife wasn't riding due to an injured shoulder. I asked how it happened, and he told me they were on a residential street near their house when some ahole suddenly opened the door of his Ford F-250 4x4 pickup truck, knocking her down, etc. I empathized, and then made a comment about why it's important to never ride in a door zone. Get this. He insisted she was not in the door zone. It was a personal conversation, not an internet forum, so I backed off. But the point is here was a highly skilled and experienced cyclist who was not even willing to consider that maybe an adjustment to the way he and his wife ride could have prevented her from being affected at all, much less injured, in a crash like this, ever. His mind refused to go there. "The ahole guy in the truck was 100% at fault, and there was nothing that could have been done about it, period. You weren't there, you don't know. End of Story." A basic dooring! This is cycling safety 101. It was astonishing.

How utterly fascinating :rolleyes:

Again, do you think that applies to me?

Anyway, I've seen the "do you know how much skill and experience I have?" blinders in person, and I've certainly seen them on this forum.

Me too.

Experience and skill, if anything, makes people less likely to consider what others are saying. The folks with whom I've probably had the most influence here, like JoeJack, were relatively inexperienced. So their minds were not as closed as yours apparently is.

You really are quite amazingly full of yourself, Serge. So unless I automatically agree with you, my mind is closed? :roflmao:

LittleBigMan

08-24-07, 06:47 PM

Oh, I'm with you on that. Please don't think that I'm one of these Nazis who thinks cyclists ONLY belong on roads behaving as drivers. Bike paths, sidewalk shortcuts, cutting through parking lots, etc., are all in the bag for me. My thing is IF you're on the road, THEN you should behave as a driver of a vehicle.
Oh, yeah. I get much more respect when acting like I'm supposed to ride there.

I saw a cyclist recently (don't jump on me guys, I'm just sayin',) who was trying to move as far to the right as "practical" for a large vehicle.

That dad-blamed driver didn't even give that cyclist enough room at all--he didn't even cross the lane line in a narrow spot.

That's how motorists think: "If I can squeeze through that gap..."

tallard

08-24-07, 08:32 PM

...Is it as rare as a meteor?

In a lifetime of cycling, how likely is it that a front tire might blow for a given cyclist, enough to cause him to lose control and swerve or fall to the left? Will this happen only to 1 out of 100,000,000+ cyclists (which would begin to liken it to being worried about being hit by a meteor, which supposedly happens to about 1 person every 50 years), or is it significantly more likely, like 1 out of 10,000 cyclists, 1,000, 100 or 10?

Hmm, interesting, before escaping to SE Florida, in 25 years of cycling, I'd had maybe a dozen flats. Suddenly in 5 years of cycling in SE Florida, and putting in much less miles and time, like way less, I've had 20 flats or so!!!! I think it's because of some of the prickly vegetation down south, I've had to add in inner strip to my dual purpose MTB tires... How very annoying!

OK, back to the post, out of all these flats, NOT ONCE did they make me swerve!!! not even close. I've never even heard from fellow cyclists that a flat that them swerve, you've all experienced that??????

The only times I swerve is to get out of broken class or a detritus whose shape could cause it to take flight as I hit it... Otherwise I'll only swerve if I'm distracted which I only do if I let myself, on quiet ways....:D

Bekologist

08-24-07, 11:22 PM

As you noted earlier, it's hard to judge the width of the outside lane, but if you add the width of the shoulder, it might actually be wide enough to safely share. I'd have to ride there to know for sure. But, yeah if it is wide enough, then I would ride in the shoulder, as I'm being passed........

We have not established that that apparently narrow outside lane plus that very narrow shoulder (You think that's VERY NARROW head? :rolleyes:) amounts to space that is "wide enough to be safely shared side-by-side with passing cars or not". It is my opinion that you can't determine that from just looking at that one photo.

Head, if you can't tell if that road is wide enough to ride and share by using the shoulder to ride in, based on that photo, WTH are you going ON AND ON and babbling about?

your fear of overtaking traffic on wide open country roads (with good sightlines) is duly noted.
...and you think that is a very narrow shoulder....:roflmao:

you've convinced me you don't ride many country roads AT ALL.

Helmet Head - A nervous nellie crying wolf "The sky is falling, the sky is falling".

RobertHurst

08-25-07, 01:24 AM

Is it not true that your front tire can blow at any time? Is it not possible that a front tire blowing could cause to swerve or fall to your left?

Seriously. It has never happened to me, but I've heard other cyclists talk about it.

I mean, I've gotten a front flat before, but it wasn't a sudden explosion and I didn't lose control.

Tires do not explode spontaneously. The tube cannot explode while inside a tire. 'Blowouts' occur after a tire has been installed incorrectly, leaving a section of tube on the outside of the tire bead. It can happen if you're not careful; the tube exploits that path of no resistance and pops. An inflated tube may also poink out of a large hole in the tire, explode, or puncture after contact with the street. But you should notice if your tire has a hole large enough that the tube balloons out. It's conceivable that such an event could cause a nasty wreck, but it is irrational to go around worrying about your tire exploding spontaneously. Instead, learn what causes these rare 'blowouts' and avoid it. It's easily done.

Robert

-=£em in Pa=-

08-25-07, 07:32 AM

I bought a big, cheap cruiser bike and was doing errands on it in Vermont.
I stopped at a store , conducted my business and was riding what was about
100 feet to the curb cutout to get into the street. The tire spontaniously deflated(?)
in about .3 of a second.... One bead of the tire rolled off the rim in about 4 rotations
of the wheel. If I was going down a hill I feel safe in saying I definately would have fallen.
The bike did veer to the left because the right bead of the tire was off the rim totally.
When I pulled it apart, the seams had come apart about 4" up both sides perfectly.

genec

08-25-07, 07:49 AM

Tires do not explode spontaneously. The tube cannot explode while inside a tire. 'Blowouts' occur after a tire has been installed incorrectly, leaving a section of tube on the outside of the tire bead. It can happen if you're not careful; the tube exploits that path of no resistance and pops. An inflated tube may also poink out of a large hole in the tire, explode, or puncture after contact with the street. But you should notice if your tire has a hole large enough that the tube balloons out. It's conceivable that such an event could cause a nasty wreck, but it is irrational to go around worrying about your tire exploding spontaneously. Instead, learn what causes these rare 'blowouts' and avoid it. It's easily done.

Robert

In well over 30 years of cycling I have had plenty of flats... especially when pushing tires past their prime. Every one, even when fully loaded for touring was something that amounted to a hiss... either fast or slow.

The only "blowouts" I have ever heard of, occurred when someone filled a low pressure tire at a gas station with too high pressure, and then rode off to soon experience a loud "blowout." Those low pressure balloon tires can go with quite a bang.

A narrow tube squeaking out of a worn hole in a tire or past a sidewall when improperly installed still makes quite a pop, but as Robert mentioned, these are usually noticeable as they occur.

-=£em in Pa=-

08-25-07, 08:08 AM

Are these 23c's ?

There is a 'flat season' in Vermont...when the roads are finally snow
free but the tons of stuff they put on the roads is left behind holing
tubes regularly. On my fixie(23c) the air left the tire in what seemed like
only a nano-second but good tires stayed on the rim. No loss of control issues.

John Wilke

08-25-07, 08:43 AM

-=£em in Pa=-

08-25-07, 08:52 AM

Thats terrible John.
I havent been following this thread until recently, Ill have to go
back and read about this. I hope you are OK ?
This is the perspective I come from on road cycling and get alot of
flak for it.....Yes, you should be seen, you should be given respect and
safe passage, but the reality that is very far away from this is that
a lot of drivers most emphaticly DO NOT deserve to be driving and
we all suffer accordingly. This is why if my bicycular 6th sense tells me
to get off of the road for a block or two, I just listen to it.
Again, I hope you are OK !

genec

08-25-07, 10:14 AM

Let me throw this in... as an illustration of backcountry roads one might typically find in California. Certainly hiway 1 along the coast looks quite a bit like this and this is indeed typical of many "farm" highways.

Take a look at the "shoulder" on this road... there ain't none. Where would you ride?

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20070825/images/wheels.jpg

I myself have ridden this road many times, and frankly it is a good fun ride.

Here are some quotes from the article accompanying this picture:
" Lyons Valley Road, running northeast from Jamul, is one of the oldest roads in the county. It dates to 1851, when Army Capt. Nathaniel Lyon mapped the route, looking for a faster way east."

"There isn't much traffic in this portion of East County and most of the through drivers use Skyline Truck Trail, avoiding most of the serious twists. Bicyclists, a few motorcycles and motorists who appeared to be locals were the only drivers I saw on a recent Saturday morning. And the locals don't tolerate careless driving."

"First, the road starts a more aggressive climb. Then the twists begin. And what great twists they are."

"The county road engineers who placed the signs were serious; Lyons Valley Road has, for its length, among the most number of hairpin, blind and any other descriptor for dangerous curves that can be found in the thesaurus."

"Several sections are on shelves – spots where there was no place to build a road, so a cliff was blasted or excavated to create a shelf. That means one side is a cliff rising 50 feet or more; the other side a drop-off, with the bottom 50 feet down."

From http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20070825/news_lz1dd25branda.html

joejack951

08-25-07, 11:08 AM

Tires do not explode spontaneously. The tube cannot explode while inside a tire. 'Blowouts' occur after a tire has been installed incorrectly, leaving a section of tube on the outside of the tire bead. It can happen if you're not careful; the tube exploits that path of no resistance and pops. An inflated tube may also poink out of a large hole in the tire, explode, or puncture after contact with the street. But you should notice if your tire has a hole large enough that the tube balloons out. It's conceivable that such an event could cause a nasty wreck, but it is irrational to go around worrying about your tire exploding spontaneously. Instead, learn what causes these rare 'blowouts' and avoid it. It's easily done.

Robert

Um, I've had a rear tube blowout (sounded like a gunshot) from a glass puncture and it caused me to a do little swervy swerve back and forth before I slowed the bike down. I've been behind a guy (luckily with a good bit of a gap) descending at 40mph and just as we reached the bottom of the hill his back tire when flat with a loud bang. I've also blown out a few tubes installing tires on a set of wheels I have where the outer diameter of the rim is a bit small. It's much easier to install and remove tires on those wheels but I have to watch very carefully every time I inflate them from 0 psi.

Helmet Head

08-25-07, 11:26 AM

Tires do not explode spontaneously. The tube cannot explode while inside a tire. 'Blowouts' occur after a tire has been installed incorrectly, leaving a section of tube on the outside of the tire bead. It can happen if you're not careful; the tube exploits that path of no resistance and pops. An inflated tube may also poink out of a large hole in the tire, explode, or puncture after contact with the street. But you should notice if your tire has a hole large enough that the tube balloons out. It's conceivable that such an event could cause a nasty wreck, but it is irrational to go around worrying about your tire exploding spontaneously. Instead, learn what causes these rare 'blowouts' and avoid it. It's easily done.

Robert
Let's keep the skewering :love: in perspective and not blow things out of proportion, please.

The only reason this was ever raised was in the context of talking about why it is desirable for motorists to pass cyclists with a reasonably safe passing distance. Off the top of my head I listed a few reasons I could think of for why a cyclist might suddenly veer off course, developing a front blowout being just one of them. I don't know how long ago that discussion was held, but I know I rarely if ever brought up that possibility before or after, until now that Pete raised it again. That hardly constitutes evidence of me or anyone else going "around worrying about your tire exploding spontaneously".

Helmet Head

08-25-07, 11:29 AM

It doesn't matter where on the road you ride ... you SHOULD be seen and left ample room.

This is the road I was riding, looking back from where I came when I got run down.

http://members.aol.com/j999w/crash/Route.jpg

I should have been seen no matter where I was, YET, I was run down, hard enough so that I landed in that tall grass off to the side, mind you, and the driver kept going.

So again, it doesn't matter where on the road you ride, you should expect to be NOT run over by anyone who deserves to be behind the wheel of a motor vehicle.
Whether you SHOULD be seen is irrelevant. Drivers make mistakes. That's a given you SHOULD acknowledge, and ride accordingly. You should NOT expect to be seen, at least not without verifying, especially if you're riding in a manner that invites close passes, or you might get run down. But you already know about that.

Helmet Head

08-25-07, 11:35 AM

This is the road I was riding, looking back from where I came when I got run down.

http://members.aol.com/j999w/crash/Route.jpg

In the picture you see a truck moving away from the camera, and a car in the distance coming towards us. Picture a cyclist in the right lane (same as truck) a ways in front of the truck, opposite the car. Picture the cyclist in two potential positions:

Riding near the fog line.
Riding near the center of the road.
Now put yourself in the driver's seat of the truck. Is a cyclist in position (a) or (b) significantly more likely to get your attention sooner? Is a cyclist in position (a) or (b) significantly more likely to be overlooked? Is a cyclist in position (a) or (b) significantly more likely to cause you to slow down sooner, or slow down at all? Or are the probabilities about the same?

RobertHurst

08-25-07, 12:37 PM

Um, I've had a rear tube blowout (sounded like a gunshot) from a glass puncture ....

The only way that could be true is if the glass caused such a huge, gaping hole in the tire that the tube exploded out of the hole. To test this out, pump your tire up to 120 psi and puncture it with something sharp, like a tack or shard of glass, and see what happens. Hisssssssss. Once again, it is physically impossible for a punctured tube to make any sort of bang while inside the tire. Only if the tire is no longer there to hold it back will the tube explode.

It is possible to put so much air pressure into a tire that it blows off the rim or otherwise fails. As gene says, this is common when people use the gas station compressor to fill up their bike tires. It is also possible when overinflated tires get super-heated by braking on long downhills, usually only a problem for tandems, but may be what happened to the guy here:

... I've been behind a guy (luckily with a good bit of a gap) descending at 40mph and just as we reached the bottom of the hill his back tire when flat with a loud bang. ....

Either that, or his tire/tube had been improperly installed, leaving a bit of tube to work its way slowly out from under the bead, and it finally achieved its complete freedom as he heated the rims in braking.

Robert

rajman

08-25-07, 12:41 PM

Tires do not explode spontaneously. The tube cannot explode while inside a tire. 'Blowouts' occur after a tire has been installed incorrectly, leaving a section of tube on the outside of the tire bead. It can happen if you're not careful; the tube exploits that path of no resistance and pops. An inflated tube may also poink out of a large hole in the tire, explode, or puncture after contact with the street. But you should notice if your tire has a hole large enough that the tube balloons out. It's conceivable that such an event could cause a nasty wreck, but it is irrational to go around worrying about your tire exploding spontaneously. Instead, learn what causes these rare 'blowouts' and avoid it. It's easily done.

Robert

I have had one blowout experience, as a child. I was riding up a hill on my very first two wheeler (eight years old and riding in Montreal traffic - it seems I've been riding forever :)), when I heard a loud bang.

I did not sweve, if anyone is wondering, but my tire was flat, and upon inspection there was a hole in the tire and tube, and there was a small steel ball bearing inside the tire.

I've always wondered what type of *****hole shoots at a little kid for the fun of it, and also been amazed at how good a shot that guy was, if he was indeed trying to shoot out my tire. It seems to me that shooting a moving bicycle tire from any distance whatsoever would be pretty much an impossible shot.

If my limited flat experience is anything to go by, swerving has not been a problem, though I would be afraid of crashing if a tire suddenly flatted when I was on a steep, curving downhill grade.

RobertHurst

08-25-07, 12:47 PM

Concerning blowouts, etc. the possibility of rim failure should also be noted. Heavily used rims can be very worn down by rim-braking, especially in wet climates. Over time this causes the side section of the rim to thin and eventually crack lengthwise; the cracked rim can fail catastrophically, and the failure is often accompanied by the loud BANG! of the tube suddenly finding freedom. This leads many people to believe that the blowout led somehow to the rim failure, rather than the other way around.

Robert

RobertHurst

08-25-07, 01:02 PM

...

If my limited flat experience is anything to go by, swerving has not been a problem, though I would be afraid of crashing if a tire suddenly flatted when I was on a steep, curving downhill grade.

I actually think that tires suddenly going flat are less of a hazard than the insidious slow leak. You might get a small glass or goathead pinhole puncture, or even a small pinch flat, that lets air escape unnoticed while you continue to ride. A slow leak in the front tire can be virtually undectable even after it has let much of the air out. Finally, you try to make a sharp turn, not realizing that your tire has gone half-flat, and the tire isn't there to support the turn. Slaps ya right down. This is a classic mode for wrecking on the mountain bike where the front tire needs to support lots of sharp turns.

Robert

John Wilke

08-25-07, 01:35 PM

Whether you SHOULD be seen is irrelevant. Drivers make mistakes. That's a given you SHOULD acknowledge, and ride accordingly. You should NOT expect to be seen, at least not without verifying, especially if you're riding in a manner that invites close passes, or you might get run down. But you already know about that.

In my opinion, riding to the right does not INVITE close passes. There are plenty of good drivers out there that will give you plenty of room even if you're well to the right of the white stripe.

Just like I expect to be able to get my mail from the roadside mailbox withought getting run over, or cross the street at the crosswalk withought getting run over (and killed, like many have been), I expect to be seen and not run over when riding my bike.

Mistakes I can forgive, but morons behind the wheel that don't deserve a driver's license I can't. Unfortunately the world is choked with them, whether they are driving a rusty pickup truck, or a spanking new BMW. Even if you're riding the middle of the road ... they'll get you.

No wonder I ride the bike trails so often these days.

John Wilke

08-25-07, 04:30 PM

FYI, you should give credit to where you get your pics from ;) :

Cyclists hurting, but alive (http://www.record-eagle.com/2007/aug/19hurtbikers.htm)

http://www.record-eagle.com/2007/aug/19cyclist3.jpg

Record-Eagle/Sheri McWhirter
William Aten of Boyne Falls walks along M-32 in Antrim County near the spot where he and a friend, Brandon Inglehart, were struck and badly injured by an eastbound truck in April.

Cyclists hurting, but alive
Two men were hit from behind, face long recovery

BY SHERI McWHIRTER

smcwhirter@record-eagle.com

ELMIRA — William Aten and Brandon Inglehart love to bicycle great distances across northern Michigan, exactly what they were doing on a day that changed their lives.

"A short ride is 25 miles,” said Aten, 58, a retired school principal who lives in Boyne Falls.

On April 24, Aten and Inglehart, 33, a middle school science teacher, were cycling east, single-file along the paved shoulder of M-32 in Antrim County's Warner Township.

They were to the right of the fog line when a company truck driven by Darren Zimmerman, 39, of Gaylord struck them from behind, Antrim sheriff's reports said.

"It was in broad daylight with no visual obstructions,” said Blake Ringsmuth, a Traverse City attorney hired by the cyclists.

Both bicyclists suffered serious injuries, but no criminal charges were filed against Zimmerman. He may receive a traffic citation instead.

"I think it's a very significant case because both the men had broken spines. They're not in wheelchairs, but were in back braces for months,” Ringsmuth said.

Each cyclist suffered broken vertebrae, and Inglehart had a severe head wound. Now their lives are dominated by pain, expensive medical bills, pending surgeries, extended physical rehabilitation and limited mobility.

"I've been in a full body brace. I look like a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle,” Aten said.

He hasn't been able to return to cycling, while Inglehart received the OK from his doctor a month ago, when he regained his sense of balance.

"The bike path was fine. But if I ride on any sort of a road, it's nerve-wrecking. I will probably never ride by myself on the road,” said Inglehart of Petoskey, adding that he attached a mirror to his bike and always wears the brightest clothes in his closet.

Antrim County Prosecutor Charles Koop said he reviewed the case and determined there wasn't enough evidence for a felonious driving charge, which requires proof of willful and wanton disregard for the safety of others.

"My interpretation of the police report is the accident reconstruction did not show that the driver was anything but inattentive,” Koop said.

He said a ticket for careless driving may be issued by police, but no criminal charges can be considered without further evidence. If either Aten or Inglehart had died, Zimmerman could have been charged with negligent homicide, Koop said.

Meanwhile, Ringsmuth is preparing a lawsuit against Zimmerman and the company that owns the truck he drove, MDC Contracting in Charlevoix.

Police reports show Zimmerman was not intoxicated when the collision occurred, but he admitted to stooping over to reach for a jacket and paperwork that fell to the floor. He said he did not see the cyclists until he struck them, police documents show.

Zimmerman could not be reached for comment and officials at MDC Contracting did not return repeated phone messages.

Zimmerman's driving record includes one speeding ticket in March 2005 and two one-vehicle accidents in 2002 and 2003.

Aten and Inglehart said they hope their suit prompts motorists to be more aware of cyclists and remember that state law requires they share the roads.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Forgive me ... but I read this as MORON RUNS DOWN CYCLISTS.

I hope they get a big settlement from him and his company.

tallard

08-25-07, 06:45 PM

FYI, ... Record-Eagle/Sheri McWhirter
William Aten of Boyne Falls walks along M-32 in Antrim County near the spot where he and a friend, Brandon Inglehart, were struck and badly injured by an eastbound truck in April.

Forgive me ... but I read this as MORON RUNS DOWN CYCLISTS.
I hope they get a big settlement from him and his company.

I totally conquer. Although there is still a sliver of possibility that being in the center of the lane MAY have made them visible BEFORE the driver put his head down, that is certainly no certainty. When a driver is so moronic as to only ever watch out a few feet in front of himself, that's moronic enough for anything...

My default riding technique is a duality of probabilities: All motorists are morons AND I will cycle for MAXIMUM visibility AND I refuse to submit to restrictions on my ROW.

I sympathize with the victims. I know getting back on is nerve racking as my single accident had me in a 8-brace to reset my clavicle for almost 2 months, I could barely wipe myself, and that for a girl is a big deal!!!! I was preparing for a volunteer trip in Ecuador when my accident happened and I nonetheless packed my back-up MTB on the plane and flew there on time, but it was an additional month before the brace could come off as I was not "resting as I should to quicken healing". But I'll remember that first ride all my life.

Bekologist

08-25-07, 08:22 PM

head, your purported insistence on riding in the center of the lane to slow drivers down, and getting them to change lane position, before you move into the shoulder,

even on roads like the one pictured below,

echoes a very strong fear. a nervous nellie streak to win the freakness stakes.
you'll gain road confidence the more you ride, helemt head. Keep on truckin', lil' buddy!

LittleBigMan

08-25-07, 08:54 PM

In my opinion, riding to the right does not INVITE close passes. There are plenty of good drivers out there that will give you plenty of room even if you're well to the right of the white stripe.
Yes, there are plenty of good drivers out there.

But riding to the right does invite close passes when I'm in busy traffic. That's one reason I don't do it. Motorists think they can "shoot the gap," and do. This is a far cry from intentional close passes or negligent hit-from-behind crashes. It's impatience in rush hour. And usually, it isn't life-threatening. It's just not the way I want to ride.

But riding to the left doesn't invite close passes, in my experience. Riding to the left gives me ample room to maneuver my bike as I see fit. That way I can ride more comfortably, as a road-user who deserves the same rights to pavement.

The idea that a cyclist can "control" motorist behavior is nonsense. Motorists behave as they will. My job is to ride.

If someone's going to run me over through negilgence or pure intention, it doesn't matter much where I'm riding.

John Wilke

08-26-07, 02:53 AM

Slowing traffic also pisses people off who are already unstable mentally. Who do they take it out on next?

Helmet Head

08-26-07, 08:52 AM

FYI, you should give credit to where you get your pics from ;) :

Click on the photo in the OP.

Helmet Head

08-26-07, 09:28 AM

Well, you're insistence that anything I say that doesn't agree with your kockamamie theories must therefore be wrong was a clue. (see below - you're still doing it)
Whether I have insisted that anything you say doesn't agree with my theories or not, that you think my doing so would imply that I'm making assumptions about your skill level and experience of riding on the road is odd.

Do you think that applies to me?

How utterly fascinating :rolleyes:

Again, do you think that applies to me?

If you think relatively high levels of skill and experience are relevant to whether one necessarily regularly employs safe practices in his own riding, which you seem to be implying when you contend that I must be making assumptions about your skills and experience, then yes, I think the story applies to you, because it contradicts what you seem to be implying. In any case, do I need to remind you that this is an open forum, not a private message, and you're not the only one I'm addressing whenever I post here?

You really are quite amazingly full of yourself, Serge. So unless I automatically agree with you, my mind is closed? :roflmao:
No. Apparently, you think that my sense that your mind is closed stems from you not automatically agreeing with me. Most people on this forum don't automatically agree with me on anything. If they did, that would hardly be evidence of an open mind. Quite the opposite, of course.

What is evidence of a closed mind is a defensive non sequitur like what follows, apparently, perhaps subconsciously, intended to divert the discussion from the underlying issues.

...
I've even been hit from behind. There really was nothing I could've done about it (I didn't have a mirror at the time - I use one now, and it may have helped me see the danger coming, but I really can't say for sure). I was a bit shy of passing motorists for a few day afterwards, but I still use the exact same lane position on that road that I always have because I realise that a)it was a freak occurrence b)the road is not 'inherently dangerous' and c)claiming the lane on that road would be foolish, despite a shoulder not much wider than that seen in the OP. I soon got over my nervousness of passing traffic again.

One incident of a hit-from-behind in 12 years of city riding doesn't seem like a good reason to change the way I ride.:eek:

You're freakin' lucky to be alive and you still don't see the value of using (4) over (1)? You're hopeless.Thankyou for your concern, but you clearly are making assumptions about my skill level and experience of riding on the road that are simply incorrect.

How much exerience do you think I have on the road? Do you really think you're the only one around here that can make valid decisions on lane position? Get over yourself.
Again, what did I say that would cause you to think I'm making ANY assumptions about your skill level and experience?

For reference:

The choices a cyclist has about how to ride on a road like that depicted in the photo in the OP can be summarized as follows.
Ride in the shoulder, and take your chances (typical style employed by most cyclists not using mirrors, including many who have mirrors but don't really use them in this context).
Ride in the shoulder or near the stripe, but monitoring traffic approaching from behind with a mirror, counting on being able to bail successfully if the driver drifts in the last moment (this is what SSP does, if I understand correctly).
Ride "centerish" (*) in the lane, and take your chances (no one I know advocates or employs this method).
Ride "centerish" in the lane, but monitoring traffic approaching from behind with a mirror, and adjusting laterally as needed, perhaps moving left to increase conspicuity and verify awareness while they are still a relatively long way back, and/or by moving right to facilitate passing later, perhaps riding in the shoulder or even bailing into the dirt shoulder if required (basically what I employ and advocate).

So, although it happened only once in 12 years of city riding, you have been hit from behind apparently while using the style of riding summarized by (1) in the list above, are lucky to be alive after that, and yet continue to ride and defend riding that way, despite the fact that (4) would seem to clearly effectively protect you from that and other kinds of crashes. And instead of explaining this choice, you choose to dodge the question by making non sequitur accusations about me making assumptions about your experience and skill level? No, you don't have a closed mind at all. :rolleyes:

Helmet Head

08-26-07, 09:45 AM

In my opinion, riding to the right does not INVITE close passes. There are plenty of good drivers out there that will give you plenty of room even if you're well to the right of the white stripe.

Just like I expect to be able to get my mail from the roadside mailbox withought getting run over, or cross the street at the crosswalk withought getting run over (and killed, like many have been), I expect to be seen and not run over when riding my bike.

Mistakes I can forgive, but morons behind the wheel that don't deserve a driver's license I can't. Unfortunately the world is choked with them, whether they are driving a rusty pickup truck, or a spanking new BMW. Even if you're riding the middle of the road ... they'll get you.

No wonder I ride the bike trails so often these days.
John, you exemplify the kind of attitude about motorists that I believe makes cyclists more prone to get hit.

Whether riding to the right should invite close passes in some ideal alternate universe is irrelevant to the here and now where it definitely and clearly does. I ride accordingly, and recommend that you and everyone else does too. But it's your life; make your own decision.

Any motorist out there is capable of being inattentive and making a really boneheaded move. Sure, some are worse than others, but there isn't just some small percentage of morons that cause all of it. If we magically got rid of 10% of the worst drivers, we'd still be left with drivers all of whom would be capable of being inattentive and making a really boneheaded move. In other words, you'd still have to ride prepared for moronic driving even if all the morons were gone (not to mention that there is no way to get rid of the morons anyway, because there is no reliable means to identify all of them).

But if you insist on thinking that way, then, yeah, you probably should stick to the bike trails. I prefer to accept the world for what it is, including realizing that moron drivers who make boneheaded moves are par for the course, but it's possible to safely share the roads anyway, and ride accordingly.

Bekologist

08-26-07, 10:00 AM

where would you ride on THIS road?

Helmet Head

08-26-07, 10:08 AM

I totally conquer. Although there is still a sliver of possibility that being in the center of the lane MAY have made them visible BEFORE the driver put his head down, that is certainly no certainty. When a driver is so moronic as to only ever watch out a few feet in front of himself, that's moronic enough for anything...

I agree it's no certainty, but why do you say it's only a sliver of a possibility that being in the center of the lane MAY have made them visible BEFORE the driver put his head down?

What makes you think the driver in either case only watched out a few feet in front of himself?

Per the photo in the OP (and the road where John was hit), it's long, flat and straight: excellent sight lines for a long distance.

In either case, the driver could have easily looked out ahead periodically, at least every few seconds, for hundreds, if not thousands, of feet. With his focus on the part of the road where he intended to travel, what he would have seen is nothing but empty road... nothing to be concerned with, because the cyclist were off to the side of where he intended to drive. After all, he almost certainly had no intention to drift out of his path.

Now, if the cyclists up ahead was in the center of his lane, clearly up ahead in his intended path, why do you think there is only a sliver of a possibility that this would have grabbed his attention? Consider this in terms of the question I posted earlier with regard to the picture of the road where John was hit:

http://members.aol.com/j999w/crash/Route.jpg

In the picture you see a truck moving away from the camera, and a car in the distance coming towards us. Picture a cyclist in the right lane (same as truck) a ways in front of the truck, opposite the car. Picture the cyclist in two potential positions:

a. Riding near the fog line.
b. Riding near the center of the road.

Now put yourself in the driver's seat of the truck. Is a cyclist in position (a) or (b) significantly more likely to get your attention sooner? Is a cyclist in position (a) or (b) significantly more likely to be overlooked? Is a cyclist in position (a) or (b) significantly more likely to cause you to slow down sooner, or slow down at all? Or are the probabilities about the same?

Bekologist

08-26-07, 10:12 AM

where would you ride on THIS road?

John Wilke

08-26-07, 10:25 AM

From my personal experience, I have been shown that if I had been riding any more to the left of where I was riding ... I would be DEAD. It wasn't a 'close pass', I was run down and I was lucky that it was a glancing blow (glancing blow ... right, his right front car tire hit my seat stay, and his fender broke my pelvis, and I've got tire marks on my helmet). Again, I do not recall where in the road I was riding and the witnesses didn't indicate that. Perhaps I was 'taking the lane', perhaps not. So, good luck on your crusade, I hope you can change the world, but I'll be the last one to convert. I'm staying to the right, and I'll take my chances over there all by myself.

genec

08-26-07, 10:52 AM

Now, if the cyclists up ahead was in the center of his lane, clearly up ahead in his intended path, why do you think there is only a sliver of a possibility that this would have grabbed his attention? Consider this in terms of the question I posted earlier with regard to the picture of the road where John was hit:

http://members.aol.com/j999w/crash/Route.jpg

In the picture you see a truck moving away from the camera, and a car in the distance coming towards us. Picture a cyclist in the right lane (same as truck) a ways in front of the truck, opposite the car.

http://members.aol.com/j999w/crash/Route.jpg

I donno, judging from the pic, the truck is something of a dark shape in the distance... and it looks pretty big... speaking of sliver... what do you think a cyclist looks like way off in the distance, especially in the shade? A thin sliver. And that car... it's visible because of headlights... and that is a long known problem which is why people on country roads do drive with headlights on.

Sure there really is no other place to ride on such a road, but consider, you may not be quite as visible as you think. Perhaps some daytime running lights may do more for you than riding smack dab in the middle of the lane.

tallard

08-26-07, 02:34 PM

...What makes you think the driver in either case only watched out a few feet in front of himself?
That's how most people I've watched driving are, when I've been in the passenger seat... Actually, I find drivers rarely look at anything at all except LARGE road signs and the color of the cute sports car that just zipped by them. Sorry, I just do not trust any of their driving expertise.

Per the photo in the OP (and the road where John was hit), it's long, flat and straight: excellent sight lines for a long distance.Well actually, if you look at the same level as the guy's right ear, there appears to be an end to the field of vision, I suspect due to a dip in the road, and then a turn? It appears to me the visibility is around a half kilometer, if the driver was doing 90 km/h coming up to a near stationary cyclist just beyond field of vision at 500 m, that's a 20 second differential. As you've already said, drivers do not take one 20 second visual break to fidget, the usual pattern will be to have the idea to fidget, at which point the actual visual focus is already starting to diminish, followed by several short "dives" hunting for whatever, intersperced by several very quick glances at the road, barely qualifying as "looking". 20 seconds of lesser focus is entirely common when driving on country roads. Now with a non treed area, I think a cyclist would have been much more visible. However in this situation, the driver was so clearly moronically at fault for lack of continuous attention... I'd say the possibility that the cyclist was just beyond field of vision just before the driver entered his hypothetical 20 seconds of diminished attention level is quite possible.

... almost certainly had no intention to drift out of his path.Motoring, I've drifter right or left of the lane several times in my life. However, I only go on hunting expeditions (CDs or maps or whatever) when I am completely confident of the safety of my future route. Or at least that is my hope and sense of it when I'm motoring.

I'm staying out of the other picture/question because I view it as a separate issue :)

I wish we had stats for this thought: My impression of the stats comparing rural cycling versus city cycling is that they are very misleading. If my memory serves me right, it's something like 40% vs 60%, more or less. However I believe a more revealing statistic would be number of motorists encountered. If we were able to account for that factor, I believe we would find that rural cycling is multitudes more dangerous than urban cycling. As in a city, an hour ride may have thousands of "car encounters" whereas in a rural area, on hour cycle my only reach a dozen "car encounters". I would bet that reassessing all collisions in relation to "car encounters" would give us an entirely different outlook on rural cycling.

Conclusion, I believe the center lane principal is less effective in rural settings because motorists are simply less alert when there aren't numerous other fast vehicles around to watch out for. Generally I do believe that the center of the lane is a great place to be.

Bekologist

08-26-07, 05:07 PM

do you think you need to ride in the center of the lane on all roads, regardless, tallard?

you think it's a great place to be? you don't know how to share lanes or let vehicles pass?

Allister

08-26-07, 05:35 PM

If you think relatively high levels of skill and experience are relevant to whether one necessarily regularly employs safe practices in his own riding,

Employing safe practices is inherent in the phrase 'high levels of skill and experience'.

which you seem to be implying when you contend that I must be making assumptions about your skills and experience, then yes, I think the story applies to you, because it contradicts what you seem to be implying.

What am I implying?

What is evidence of a closed mind is a defensive non sequitur like what follows, apparently, perhaps subconsciously, intended to divert the discussion from the underlying issues.

Not diverting attention, Serge, just not seeing any point in discussing things in detail with you.

Again, what did I say that would cause you to think I'm making ANY assumptions about your skill level and experience?

"then yes, I think the story applies to you,"

So, although it happened only once in 12 years of city riding, you have been hit from behind apparently while using the style of riding summarized by (1) in the list above, are lucky to be alive after that, and yet continue to ride and defend riding that way, despite the fact that (4) would seem to clearly effectively protect you from that and other kinds of crashes.

:rolleyes: Alright, since you're obviously not going to shut up about this let's describe it in detail.

First of all, I must apologise for a faulty memory. The place where the collision occured didn't have a shoulder at all. I was reminded of this when I was viewing a video I made of my ride recently.

Speaking of which, you can see it here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEcDAllHLeA&mode=user&search=) at about 1:41. I was riding much in the position you see me in that clip. What apparently happened was a truck in the right hand lane drifted across the centre line for some reason, pushing the car next to him across the shoulder line. The driver did react enough to hit the brakes, but not enough to avoid colliding with me. He hit me square on, right in the centre of his grill, which was bent into a nice v shape. Amazingly I didn't even get a bent wheel out of it, but my rack was toast. Whether riding more 'centreish' would've prevented it is debateable, (I didn't use a mirror at the time - I suspect that would've helped more than my lane position, but again, I don't know for certain) but I do know for certain that there's enough traffic on that road that the amount of grief I'd get for riding centrerish all the time wouldn't make it worth it.

So I reiterate, one freak incident isn't enough to scare me into riding in a way that you might believe will prevent it happening again in the future.

In case you haven't realised, I don't object to claiming a lane when it's necessary, which you'll see if you watch a few of the clips I've uploaded. I don't cower in the gutter irrespective of conditions, and I certainly don't ride 'blindly' anywhere. Where I disagree with you is in your idea that riding in the centre of the lane even when there's adequate room to share, whether it's a wide lane, bike lane or shoulder, is safe cycling practice, never mind practicable. To me that shows as much fear of passing motorists as does cowering in the gutter.

My philosophy of lane position is pretty simple - I ride as far left as practicable, just like it says I should in the road rules. Sometimes that means I ride in the centre of the lane, or even in the right edge, but if there's room, and it's practicable to do so, I'll ride a metre or so outside of the left tyre track - enough room for them to pass, but close enough in the lane to be visible. It's what I've found works for me over 12 years of experience, and no amount of your incessant arguing will change my mind. If that means I have a closed mind, so be it.

Allister

08-26-07, 05:44 PM

where would you ride on THIS road?

That's an amazingly wide shoulder, but I wonder why it's only on one side of the road. Seems silly not to split the difference between each direction.

I'd ride leftish in the shoulder.

Bekologist

08-26-07, 06:44 PM

...divided highway. 2 lanes same direction, an an abundantly wide shoulder.

despite the 50 foot wide shoulder, helemt head is insistent a bicyclist NEEDS to ride in the travel lane on this type of road, to get other traffic to slow down or change lanes to pass, before moving into the shoulder.

Allister

08-26-07, 07:12 PM

...divided highway. 2 lanes same direction, an an abundantly wide shoulder.

Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification. I dare say there's some far future plans to add a lane there.

despite the 50 foot wide shoulder, helemt head is insistent a bicyclist NEEDS to ride in the travel lane on this type of road, to get other traffic to slow down or change lanes to pass, before moving into the shoulder.

Yeah, I got that. What a nutter. :lol:

joejack951

08-26-07, 08:59 PM

The only way that could be true is if the glass caused such a huge, gaping hole in the tire that the tube exploded out of the hole. To test this out, pump your tire up to 120 psi and puncture it with something sharp, like a tack or shard of glass, and see what happens. Hisssssssss. Once again, it is physically impossible for a punctured tube to make any sort of bang while inside the tire. Only if the tire is no longer there to hold it back will the tube explode.

It is possible to put so much air pressure into a tire that it blows off the rim or otherwise fails. As gene says, this is common when people use the gas station compressor to fill up their bike tires. It is also possible when overinflated tires get super-heated by braking on long downhills, usually only a problem for tandems, but may be what happened to the guy here:

Either that, or his tire/tube had been improperly installed, leaving a bit of tube to work its way slowly out from under the bead, and it finally achieved its complete freedom as he heated the rims in braking.

Robert

Do you have any of the theory behind the impossiblity of a tube blow out inside of a tire? I found an article by Jobst Brandt about it but he didn't go in to much detail (not enough to satisfy me at least). I just remembered one other tube blowout that I've had that was caused by not removing a shard of glass from a tire that had been punctured (relatively small puncture too) then remounting the tire with a new tube. First time I sat down on the bike the tube blew out and left my head ringing for a day. I'd be happy if I was wrong here and learned something new about the physics of a tube blowout but I'm very skeptical at this point based on my personal experiences.

I also thought the issue with blowing out tubes using shop air compressors was due to the volume of air coming through the hose which could cause the tire to come unseated during the quick inflation. Automotive tires are rarely run at the high pressures that bike tires can take (even baloon tires that I've seen can take over 50 psi where you're average car tire is run at less than 40 psi). I've heard a lot of guys complain that those pumps won't completely fill a high pressure tire because the compressors are set at too low of a psi because they are set up only to fill automotive tires. I'm sure that guys have blown out baloon tires using a shop air compressor though because those can be set to deliver a lot of air pressure.