Vehicular Cycling (VC) - Where would you ride on this road?

I should note that I didn't have the 'bent when I got hit there.

The posted speed limit there is 80km/h, and most people seem to stick to it. I usually sit on 35-40km/h on the flat.

Thanks, that helps me put the video into perspective. SE Florida streets rarely reach 55 mph, mostly they're 35 mph with a few at 45mph, and the traffic is pretty gapless, but I'll say the street infrastructure is way messier where you are, SE FL streets are moslty nice straight lanes, not so much "add a lane, remove a lane type" of infrastructure, which I find more more difficult to negotiate for cyclists. Also the intersections are pretty much all perfectly square.As a majority of your commute seems to be shoulderless, and the traffic being gapless and fast, you are pretty much forced to keep to within a foot or two inside the fog line, which is also what I'd do. I've never seen recumbents ride that fast in my neighborhoods before :) yours must be a tall one, whereas most the ones I've seen are real low... Do you ride differently on different streets whether you're riding your 'bent of your other bike? (MTB, road?) Or should I ask does your choice of cycle affect your route choices?

Do you have any of the theory behind the impossiblity of a tube blow out inside of a tire? I found an article by Jobst Brandt about it but he didn't go in to much detail (not enough to satisfy me at least). I just remembered one other tube blowout that I've had that was caused by not removing a shard of glass from a tire that had been punctured (relatively small puncture too) then remounting the tire with a new tube. First time I sat down on the bike the tube blew out and left my head ringing for a day. I'd be happy if I was wrong here and learned something new about the physics of a tube blowout but I'm very skeptical at this point based on my personal experiences.
...


I'm not talking from theory, JJ, but personal experience. I would be interested to read discussions on the physics of this, to see if the theories match my personal experience. Sometimes, there is a bit of a ... discrepency between what the physics forumulae say is possible and what I have found to be possible. (A good example is in the 'panic stops' chapter of my book. Formulae exist which show that the shortest stops achievable by bicyclists are in the .7-g range; anybody who has actually checked this out in a physical experiment can see that the formulae are way off the mark. Just because 'correct' formulae exist, does not mean those formulae describe what is actually going on. Anyway...)

My experience tells me that a piece of glass can't really make your tube go bang, unless, like I said, it shreds the tire in such a way that the tube explodes out of a gaping hole. If you were to take an extremely large piece of glass and stab away at your inflated tire, the chance that you could make any sort of loud bang is extremely small, it seems. Even if you were to take a sharp knife and stab your tire, the air would rush out in a phwoooshhh!! not a bang. Try it if you don't believe me. I have experienced loads of these catastrophic tire-destroying flats over the years (from big pieces of scrap metal, shards of plastic, nails, even twigs) and they never result in a bang. Try it with a needle, a pen, whatever. I've gotten at least 50 glass flats and not one resulted in any sort of bang. The blowout bang you experienced was caused by one of two possibilities: you messed up while installing the tire and left a section of tube outside the bead, which later exploded, or you installed the tire correctly but overinflated so egregiously that your sitting on the bike was the straw that broke the camel and bang she went. If the latter, that's some serious overinflation.

Robert

Thanks, that helps me put the video into perspective. SE Florida streets rarely reach 55 mph, mostly they're 35 mph with a few at 45mph, and the traffic is pretty gapless, but I'll say the street infrastructure is way messier where you are, SE FL streets are moslty nice straight lanes, not so much "add a lane, remove a lane type" of infrastructure, which I find more more difficult to negotiate for cyclists.

You get used to it, but yeah, "add a lane, remove a lane type" is a pretty appalling design. That section of Wynnum Road is a shocker for it.

Also the intersections are pretty much all perfectly square.As a majority of your commute seems to be shoulderless, and the traffic being gapless and fast, you are pretty much forced to keep to within a foot or two inside the fog line, which is also what I'd do.

It's got a bit of everything. About a third of it is bikelane.

I've never seen recumbents ride that fast in my neighborhoods before :) yours must be a tall one, whereas most the ones I've seen are real low...

It's a Bachetta Giro 26 ('highracer'), made in Florida, coincidentally enough. I bought it specifically because it was higher up, and I felt it would be better in heavy traffic. I reckon it makes a pretty ideal commuter bike.

Do you ride differently on different streets whether you're riding your 'bent of your other bike? (MTB, road?) Or should I ask does your choice of cycle affect your route choices?

Not at all. In fact, my route choices are pretty much the same whether I'm riding or driving a car. I've never been very big on the idea of going out of my way in pursuit of a 'safe' route.

I'm not talking from theory, JJ, but personal experience. I would be interested to read discussions on the physics of this, to see if the theories match my personal experience. Sometimes, there is a bit of a ... discrepency between what the physics forumulae say is possible and what I have found to be possible. (A good example is in the 'panic stops' chapter of my book. Formulae exist which show that the shortest stops achievable by bicyclists are in the .7-g range; anybody who has actually checked this out in a physical experiment can see that the formulae are way off the mark. Just because 'correct' formulae exist, does not mean those formulae describe what is actually going on. Anyway...)

Ok, just checking. As to stopping distance, any formula that shows a max decelleration for any cyclist (it's not asking for any variables to be inputted) would have to be making many assumptions such as coefficient of friction between the tire and ground, COG of the bike/rider combo, etc. A variable is just that; changing it will yield variable results. Any formula that should be based on variables but has them removed is almost guaranteed to be way off the mark. And it is also true that lab formulas don't always accurately predict real world testing, usually because all of the variables were either unaccounted for or improperly inputted (variable variables come to mind).

My experience tells me that a piece of glass can't really make your tube go bang, unless, like I said, it shreds the tire in such a way that the tube explodes out of a gaping hole. If you were to take an extremely large piece of glass and stab away at your inflated tire, the chance that you could make any sort of loud bang is extremely small, it seems. Even if you were to take a sharp knife and stab your tire, the air would rush out in a phwoooshhh!! not a bang. Try it if you don't believe me. I have experienced loads of these catastrophic tire-destroying flats over the years (from big pieces of scrap metal, shards of plastic, nails, even twigs) and they never result in a bang. Try it with a needle, a pen, whatever. I've gotten at least 50 glass flats and not one resulted in any sort of bang. The blowout bang you experienced was caused by one of two possibilities: you messed up while installing the tire and left a section of tube outside the bead, which later exploded, or you installed the tire correctly but overinflated so egregiously that your sitting on the bike was the straw that broke the camel and bang she went. If the latter, that's some serious overinflation.

Robert

The tube in question went flat the day before and was reinflated with a CO2 cartridge (probably got only a little over 100 psi as it was a 700x25). I finished my 40 mile ride on it. The next day, the tube had only 40 psi left in it so I reinflated to 125 psi (max for those tires). As soon as I put some weight on the bike, it went bang. I have a hard time believing that the tube got under the bead because the two times that's happened using these wheels, the tire bead was left obviously above the rim and the bead received some damage. Neither happened in this case.

I'll see if I can find someone who's a little more knowledgeable about this topic than myself to think about it.

...divided highway. 2 lanes same direction, an an abundantly wide shoulder.

despite the 50 foot wide shoulder, helemt head is insistent a bicyclist NEEDS to ride in the travel lane on this type of road, to get other traffic to slow down or change lanes to pass, before moving into the shoulder.
Ridiculous.

Must you resort to absurd strawman exaggerations every time you try to criticize me?

...seems, in a puzzler this last fall, you insisted you'd be riding in the travel lanes of this road to get traffic to slow down, before moving over into the shoulder. you referred to your fear of inadverdant drift.

this is no 'strawman' exaggeration, head.

you can redeem yourself here now, however. where would you position yourself on THIS road?

to the left or right of the white stripe? in the fifty foot shoulder, or in the travel lane to counter your fears of inadverdant drift?

Bek, because of your inability to comprehend significant differences in the meanings of words and phrases, such as between someone insisting that he himself would ride here or there, versus someone insisting that any bicyclist NEEDS to ride here or there, or realizing that the latter is a straw man characterization of the former, it is too difficult to have a rational discussion with you.

We have serious differences that would be interesting to discuss, but until you stop exaggerating like this, "helemt head is insistent a bicyclist NEEDS to ride in the travel lane on this type of road", it's not worth it.

I'm curious, where would you ride on that road and why would you ride there?
When faster same direction traffic is present, I would ride off to the right side of the solid stripe.

When there is a gap in fsdt I might maintain my position, especially if it's an uphill grade and I'm going under 10 mph, or I might merge left into a centerish position in the right lane. Either way, I would be monitoring to the rear with a mirror, taking a rearward glance every few seconds to maintain rearward situation awareness. Once fsdt is approaching, preferably after I have been able to establish that I've been noticed, I would move aside again.

I hope your fear of lots of words does not make this seem overcomplicated to you.

When faster same direction traffic is present, I would ride off to the right side of the solid stripe.

When there is a gap in fsdt I might maintain my position, especially if it's an uphill grade and I'm going under 10 mph, or I might merge left into a centerish position in the right lane. Either way, I would be monitoring to the rear with a mirror, taking a rearward glance every few seconds to maintain rearward situation awareness. Once fsdt is approaching, preferably after I have been able to establish that I've been noticed, I would move aside again.

I hope your fear of lots of words does not make this seem overcomplicated to you.Thanks for confirming my suspicions but you failed to answer the second part of the question:

why would you ride there?
Mostly because the best protection against mishap is vigilance, maintaining good situational awareness, and habitually following best practices. Riding centerish whenever fsdt is not present is a best practice I choose to follow habitually because it improves sight lines to and from me, makes me more conspicuous to motorists, and "engages" me more with traffic: it helps me maintain good vigilance and situational awareness. Conversely, habitually riding in road margins tends to make you less conspicuous, more likely to be overlooked, and less "engaged" with traffic.



I hope your fear of lots of words does not make this seem overcomplicated to you.

[blah, blah, blah] your hope is baseless.
So my hope is baseless - there is no basis to hope that your fear of lots of words does not make this seem overcomplicated to you. Oh well, thanks for letting me know it's inevitable. I won't bother hoping now.

Got it.

You ride in that manner due to your irrational fear of fsdt passing you too closely, inadvertent drift, etc. , etc.

You didn't get it at all. I don't have the fear that you allude to.

I didn't say anything about the consideration of fsdt even being a factor in my choice to ride there. At best, being more conspicuous to fsdt approaching from behind and being in a position from which it is much easier to know if they have noticed me is a bonus of following that practice, but the primary advantages of following this practice have to do with improving my chances of dealing effectively with potential hazards in front of me. It is to potential hazards in front of me that my sight lines are improved. It is from traffic in front of me that might turn across my path that the sight lines to me are improved when I'm centerish. It is my increased conspicuity to them in front of me that is the primary conspicuity advantage of doing this. How many times do I have to explain this before you'll be able to understand it?


I'm not surprised that you cannot understand a simple phrase like "I don't have the fear that you allude to."
:rolleyes:

I understand it as well as you do when I say it. I pay just as much attention to it too.

Why sure you do. Normal folks who don't suffer from your irrational fear of traffic ride on that enormous shoulder.

Normal folks: Hey, look at this huge shoulder

You: I must be out in the lane because I'm so fearful of not being seen, of being passed too close, of not being part of traffic, of not being conspicuous, etc.




You've lost it Serge.

If consideration of fsdt is not a factor in your choice to ride there, then why did you list the presence, or absence, of fsdt as a consideration of where you ride, just a few posts ago?

"When faster same direction traffic is present, I would ride off to the right side of the solid stripe.

When there is a gap in fsdt I might maintain my position, especially if it's an uphill grade and I'm going under 10 mph, or I might merge left into a centerish position in the right lane. Either way, I would be monitoring to the rear (what are you monitoring for, if not fsdt? Elves?) with a mirror, taking a rearward glance every few seconds to maintain rearward situation awareness. Once fsdt is approaching, preferably after I have been able to establish that I've been noticed, I would move aside again."

Peter, stop taking things out of context. You asked "why would you ride there?" I interpreted there to mean "a centerish position in the right lane." Sorry if that's not what you meant, but that's how I interpreted the question that you asked, and how I answered it. That should have been obvious to anyone with a decent ability to comprehend English. I even used the words, "Riding centerish whenever fsdt is not present ...", so the context should have been clear.

But context doesn't matter to you. So you refer to some other context, "just a few posts ago", where I listed the presence or absence of fsdt as a factor in deciding where to ride, in general.

So when I said fsdt was not a factor in my choice to ride there, what I meant was that fsdt was not a factor in my choice to ride in "a centerish position in the right lane." That is, how that positioning affects fsdt is not a primary reason to do it. It is, however, sometimes a reason to not ride there, in order to make it easier for them to pass, when it is safe and reasonable to move aside for them. But fsdt is never a primary factor in my choice to ride there.

But either you're not capable of understanding my position, or you have no genuine interest in understanding it.

Either way, I think it's time to leave you alone with your delusions in Peter's Fantasyland.

Peter, stop taking things out of context.

It was perfectly in context.

So when I said fsdt was not a factor in my choice to ride there, what I meant was that fsdt was not a factor in my choice to ride in "a centerish position in the right lane." That is, how that positioning affects fsdt is not a primary reason to do it. It is, however, sometimes a reason to not ride there, in order to make it easier for them to pass, when it is safe and reasonable to move aside for them. But fsdt is never a primary factor in my choice to ride there.

Lane positioning based on an absence of fsdt is still taking it into consideration.

But either you're not capable of understanding my position.

No you're just not capable of explaining it, or when you do, you change your explanation when you're called on it. Talking with you is like trying to nail down a fart, and just as worthwhile. It's strangely entertaining though.

I think we're just about done here.

hemlmet, your fear of overtaking traffic is glaringly apparant.

I can't tell if your response is paranoia or propaganda. likely a bit of both. and distinctly un vc.

keep on truckin' lil buddy - you'll gain coinfidence the more you ride!

It was perfectly in context.
No, it wasn't.

Lane positioning based on an absence of fsdt is still taking it into consideration.
Duh. Look at #334. That's the context. Peter quotes me where I give the reasons I ride centerish, in which fsdt and inadvertent drift is not even mentioned, much less taken into consideration, and Peter responds:


Mostly because the best protection against mishap is vigilance, maintaining good situational awareness, and habitually following best practices. Riding centerish whenever fsdt is not present is a best practice I choose to follow habitually because it improves sight lines to and from me, makes me more conspicuous to motorists, and "engages" me more with traffic: it helps me maintain good vigilance and situational awareness. Conversely, habitually riding in road margins tends to make you less conspicuous, more likely to be overlooked, and less "engaged" with traffic.
Got it.

You ride in that manner due to your irrational fear of fsdt passing you too closely, inadvertent drift, etc. , etc.
I repeat: he got nothing.

Yes, on a road where it's safe and reasonable to ride in the margins, the presence or absence of faster same direction traffic is a consideration because it is rude to unnecessarily block faster traffic. But the primary reasons (outlined above) to ride centerish have nothing to do with an "irrational fear" of anything, much less "fsdt passing me too closely, inadvertent drift", etc. The reason I ride in that manner is NOT due to that. The primary reasons I default to a centerish position has nothing to do with fsdt, much less any threat they may pose.


No you're just not capable of explaining it, or when you do, you change your explanation when you're called on it. Talking with you is like trying to nail down a fart, and just as worthwhile. It's strangely entertaining though.
Yes, in an effort to be more clear, I've changed how I explain it, but fundamentally it's all very consistent, and has been for years. Proof of this is people like JoeJack951, Daily Commute, noisebeam, Galen531, AlmostTrick and many others get it and can often even explain it better than I. They might not all agree with all of it, but they do understand it. For them, talking with me is not like trying to nail down a fart. Why are all these other people able to understand it, but you, Bek and Peter cannot?

The fact is that you absolutely suck as communicating in a succinct and clear manner. Many of the goofy things that are floating around in your head get garbled by the time they reach your fingers and the keyboard.

You are responsible, and no one else, (that's a quote from your "vigilance" idiocy BTW) for your lack of clarity.

So do you have an issue with what I'm saying, or how I'm communicating it?

In any case, there are dozens of folks who seem to have no problem comprehending my words. You are in the minority that has trouble. You're in good company. It took arguing with Gene about a year before he finally "got it", and he still misses a point here and there. I'm pretty sure Bek will never get it. I don't know if he can't think spatially, or what. Anyway, you might consider a reading comprehension course, or a class in basic logic.

helemt head, you're OBSESSED with your fear of traffic.

Don't delude yourself with my not understanding lane positioning for visibility, I use that technique daily, helmet- unlike yourself, part timer.

your obsessive fear of overtaking and oncoming traffic will pass in time, the more you ride.

you'll gain road confidence and perhaps, the ability to discern a safe road position WITHOUT your obsessive mirror use dictating your road position, head.

I recommend more bike, less cage.

Keep on truckin' lil buddy!

Pete didn't take what Serge said out of context. He tried to spin it and twist it out of context to justify his own position.