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Assume you are stopped at the side of the road where that man is walking and are about to get back on your bike and continue riding away from the camera. Where would you most likely position yourself on this road?
http://www.record-eagle.com/2007/aug/19cyclist3.jpg (http://www.record-eagle.com/2007/aug/19hurtbikers.htm)
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Maybe I should have voted for "Near the Center," but my default road position would be, and is for a road like this, "Between the Right Tire Track and Center," biased toward the center, but flexible. Under no circumstances, that I can think of right off the top of my head, would I ride further to the right than the right tire track.
I take that back, yes I can. I would pull off the right and stop, if an emergency vehicle running code
were approaching from my 6.
That paved shoulder ain't wide enough to even consider.
On the right tire track. (strangely, not an available choice).
The right tire track will be smoother than any other infrequently used spot on that road. The center may contain oil. I would go right for the right tire track.
where would you ride on THIS road?
And, where would you ride on THIS road?
To the right of the fog line stripe (in the shoulder)?
On, or just to the right of, the fog line stripe?
On, or just to the left of, the fog line stripe?
Between the stripe and the right tire track?
Near the right tire track?
Between the right tire track and the center?
Near the center?
Between the center and the left tire track?
Near the left tire track?
Other?
If you want answers to a different picture you should start a new thread, Bek. Unless of course, you're just trying to troll a derail into HH's thread.
On the right tire track. (strangely, not an available choice).
The right tire track will be smoother than any other infrequently used spot on that road. The center may contain oil. I would go right for the right tire track.
Ugh. I meant for "near the right tire track" to include "on the right tire track".
looking at your original picture, it depends on traffic, head. speaking from experience, not the armchair, having ridden thousands of miles, tens of thousands of miles, on roads just like that one, ride in the lane or on the shoulder, depending on traffic conditions. No problems.
Here's a picture taken on the fly, riding IN that wide of a shoulder, and no traffic. no problem.
..just thought I'd post a feww pics of different shoulders, commuterrun, to show there is no static shoulder, or road position to take, while riding roads with shoulders.
a bicyclist can pull into a shoulder that wide with traffic overtaking. a bicyclist can ride in that wide of a shoulder with no traffic on a road.
how wide IS that shoulder, head? are you even sure? That picture's perspective is a bit skewed. How wide is it?
..just thought I'd post a feww pics of different shoulders, commuterrun, to show there is no static shoulder, or road position to take, while riding roads with shoulders.
Be sure to get on down to California where on many occasions the fog line runs right into the dirt. HH was generous showing that "shoulder..." although I certainly would not ride it.
looking at your original picture, it depends on traffic, head. speaking from experience, not the armchair, having ridden thousands of miles, tens of thousands of miles, on roads just like that one, ride in the lane or on the shoulder, depending on traffic conditions. No problems.
Here's a picture taken on the fly, riding IN that wide of a shoulder, and no traffic. no problem.
If you click on the photo in the OP, it will take you to the article about the cyclists hit from behind while riding single file in that shoulder. No problem. :rolleyes:
If you click on the photo in the OP, it will take you to the article about the cyclists hit from behind while riding single file in that shoulder. No problem. :rolleyes:
From my reading of that story, they would've been hit no matter where they were positioned. Your point?
where do you ride that road with 2 semi trucks approaching from opposite directions, at roughly the same closing distance, helmet head?
where do you ride that road with 2 semi trucks approaching from opposite directions, at roughly the same closing distance, helmet head?
some of these threads start to sound like those math problems on standardized tests...
cyclist a and cyclist b leave for the state capital from 100 miles away. there is no wind. there are no hills between their destination and their starting point. cyclist a rides VC, cyclist b adapts to her surroundings, staying safe. who arrives first?
extra credit:
if cyclist a has a 20 minute head start, how much faster will cyclist b have to ride in order to arrive at the same time?
extra extra extra credit:
if cyclist b is on a lugged steel bike, and cyclist a is on a carbon fiber bike, and they both travel the same speed, who will arrive first?
extra extra credit:
how much time will cyclist a be waiting for cyclist b at the finish if cyclist a wears his full team kit?
seriously, the what if threads are funniest.
i think the proper answer should be no answer at all - how can one tell from the photo what the other environmental cues are? is there a line of traffic behind you? a small hill just behind the walker's head? have we just pulled out of a parking lot? cross street? is there a chance for large wildlife to come running across the road? what is the shoulder made of? how does it smell there? how many cars have passed me in the last minute? 10? 20? hour?
[edit: and thats not a slam on bek, as i think he gets to the heart of the matter here...]
If you click on the photo in the OP, it will take you to the article about the cyclists hit from behind while riding single file in that shoulder. No problem. :rolleyes:
Another typical HH rigged poll in HH's Forester Brand quest for knowledge AKA: another device to provide the predetermined dogma driven correct answer.
From my reading of that story, they would've been hit no matter where they were positioned. Your point?
I explained this in detail in another thread. Here it is:
Yeah, it would have been much better had they been riding centered in the lane...especially when the news article mentions the following:
Police reports show Zimmerman was not intoxicated when the collision occurred, but he admitted to stooping over to reach for a jacket and paperwork that fell to the floor. He said he did not see the cyclists until he struck them, police documents show.
Yet more HH wishful thinking.
You missed my point.
To think that the reason the driver did not notice the cyclists is because he was focussed on stuff that fell to the floor requires taking the situation completely out of the 40 second long context that should be considered.
He stooped over to reach for a jacket and paperwork that fell to the floor moments before reaching the cyclists, yet he was unaware of their presence. Had they been riding centered in the lane, he would have been aware of their presence, and almost certainly not only have noticed them, but would have been slowing down and/or moving laterally to avoid hitting them, putting off the chore to reach for the stuff until after he had passed them.
Further, by riding centered and using mirrors to regularly monitor to the rear, the cyclists would be in a position to recognize whether the driver had not noticed them and take appropriate action in the highly unlikely event that he would not have noticed them had they been clearly in his intended path up ahead.
If they were going 15 and he was going 60, he was closing at 45 mph or 66 feet per second. That means he was only a half mile back 40 seconds prior to reach them. That's the point where they should have started trying to get his attention through lane position (most effective way to do that is to already be positioned "centerish" by default at that point). 20 seconds later he's still a quarter mile back and they might already be able to tell if he's going to slow down and/or move laterally to pass or not. That would be the time to continue moving laterally and maybe zig-zagging if confirmation of being noticed had not yet been obtained. 10 seconds later he's 10 seconds from reaching them and now about 660 feet back. That would be the time to turn around and look at him for a full second or two if confirmation of being noticed had not yet been obtained. Five seconds later , bailing into the dirt shoulder might be considered in the highly unlikely event that the driver now 330 feet back still was continuing at full speed without altering his course at all.
None of that is possible if you're just riding along in the shoulder or bike lane, because the normal behavior for the driver, whether he noticed the cyclists or not, is the same: continue at full speed without altering course.
I repeat, to think that the reason the driver did not notice the cyclists is because he was focussed on stuff that fell to the floor requires taking the situation completely out of the 40 second long context that should be considered.
From the point at which the driver was only a half-mile behind the cyclist, a significant percentage of the 40-second time span that elapsed before he reached them, the driver had to have focused on the road in front of him in order to keep from driving into the oncoming lane or onto the dirt shoulder. Yet he failed to notice the cyclists up ahead in the shoulder. This has nothing to do with the stuff that fell and he later had to reach for. This is quintessential inattentional blindness. The cyclists up ahead, because they were to the right of the fog line, were irrelevant to him. His subsconscious mind had no reason to bring their presence to his attention. It's like they weren't even there. That's the problem, though had that stuff not fallen it would never have been an issue, because he would have driven right past them. But because the stuff fell, and he reached for it, he momentarily drifted onto the paved shoulder into the unnoticed cyclists.
This is why I employ and advocate a default centerish position. If that's where the cyclists had been riding, odds are extremely high that all kinds of warning alarms would have been going off in the driver's mind, and he would have been fully aware of their presence up there, long before the stuff fell much less his decision to look away from the
apparently empty road to pick them up. It's not like a deer that suddenly appears out of nowhere into the driver's path. By riding this way, they would have been up there for a considerable time, long enough for it to have been almost impossible for him to not notice them, impossible for him to subconsciously dismiss their presence as irrelevant.
I ask again -
where do you ride that road with 2 semi trucks approaching from opposite directions, at roughly the same closing distance, helmet head?
Personally, I'll slow down dump and logging trucks when there is good reason to (approaching narrow bridge decks) but it seems like head's fear of overtaking traffic and subsequent fearmongering is getting the better of him...
I explained this in detail in another thread. Here it is:
Looks like a whole bunch of conjecture that primarily relies on the driver's ability to pay attention to where he's going. Again, from my reading of the story, and that picture of the road, I think you're grossly overestimating that ability.
I'd most likely ride near the white line, on either side of it, to the right of it if the pavement is just as smooth as the rest of the road. Being anywhere on the pavement in that picture is just as noticable as sitting on the driver's lap.
On my recumbent, I'm sitting at the same height as a driver of a Toyota Corolla. Riding behind a grup of riders, I like to observe which multi-colored jerseys are actually camouflaging the riders against the background ahead of me. Road position does not seem to matter, especially on curved roads. Some apparently brightly colored patterns are actually great camo in the city. Remember that this is just my observation.
I ask again -
where do you ride that road with 2 semi trucks approaching from opposite directions, at roughly the same closing distance, helmet head?
Personally, I'll slow down dump and logging trucks when there is good reason to (approaching narrow bridge decks) but it seems like head's fear of overtaking traffic and subsequent fearmongering is getting the better of him...
Personally, when on a road like this, I hold the same lane position as I described above for all motor vehicles. They can pass when the on-coming lane is clear.
I explained this in detail in another thread. Here it is:
"Had they been riding centered in the lane, he would have been aware of their presence..."
Often I look at Helmet Head's posts for ****s and giggles: it usually makes for good entertainment.
But this one crosses the line: to take a serious collision like this and twist it into VC dogma, without any means to support the above statement (seriously, to state categorically that riding VC here would have made a difference is preposterous), and then to build a typical "poll with a not-so-hidden agenda" is just...disgusting. "You picked 'shoulder'? Loser! You're dead now!"
Yes, it can be useful to discuss these things, even to discuss collisions post priori, but to sanctimoniously nearly gloat over the events described is pathetic. P-U-H-thetic.
Thus, have I spoken.
I voted near the right tire track. In fact I'd ride in the right tire track.
But this one crosses the line: to take a serious collision like this and twist it into VC dogma, without any means to support the above statement (seriously, to state categorically that riding VC here would have made a difference is preposterous), and then to build a typical "poll with a not-so-hidden agenda" is just...disgusting. "You picked 'shoulder'? Loser! You're dead now!"
Nothing new for HH; ghoulish delight in conjuring VC "solutions" to fatal accidents, post accident, is his standard M.O.
I would stick to just right of the fog line... in a backwoods road like that, a cager will most likely run you down and keep going - with nobody around to find your bleeding corpse for days...
If I was downtown, I'll stick it right in the middle !! haha
If I was alone I'd probably be closer to the fog line but in the road. If I was with my wife I'd probably be near the right tire track. In both situations I'd be trying to be observant and ready to take a drive off the road if approaching traffic wasn't moving over by the time I saw them especially if there was a corner or hill of anykind nearby.
Of course I wouldn't see them because they'd be closing too fast and they wouldn't see me because I'm a tiny dot if they saw me at all before looking down for their clipboard. I always ride like i'm invisible until the drivers tell me otherwise.
Flawed poll. Does anyone here really ride in one specific position on the road? Sorry, my answer would be 'wherever the conditions dictate'. Perhaps my 'default' position, with no traffic approaching from the rear would be near the right tire track...but I might move more center and I might move to just right of the fog line, depending upon the situation at hand.
Looks like a whole bunch of conjecture that primarily relies on the driver's ability to pay attention to where he's going. Again, from my reading of the story, and that picture of the road, I think you're grossly overestimating that ability.
It is a fact that all drivers pay enough attention to the road in front of them to stay on the road most of the time. It is also a fact that no drivers pay 100% attention to the road in front of them all of the time. That "whole bunch of conjecture" was based on these simple facts, and nothing more.
The key to be not hit is to be noticed. The key to being noticed is to be, for an extended period of time, in space where drivers are paying attention. Riding in the shoulder (or bike lane) accomplishes none of that.
Flawed poll. Does anyone here really ride in one specific position on the road? Sorry, my answer would be 'wherever the conditions dictate'. Perhaps my 'default' position, with no traffic approaching from the rear would be near the right tire track...but I might move more center and I might move to just right of the fog line, depending upon the situation at hand.
The conditions are largely visible in the photo, chip. Nice bright sunny day, no other traffic at the moment.
HH - whats your point? objective? what do you hope to gain by this thread? (knowledge, insight, better riding practices?)
"Had they been riding centered in the lane, he would have been aware of their presence..."
Often I look at Helmet Head's posts for ****s and giggles: it usually makes for good entertainment.
But this one crosses the line: to take a serious collision like this and twist it into VC dogma, without any means to support the above statement (seriously, to state categorically that riding VC here would have made a difference is preposterous), and then to build a typical "poll with a not-so-hidden agenda" is just...disgusting. "You picked 'shoulder'? Loser! You're dead now!"
Yes, it can be useful to discuss these things, even to discuss collisions post priori, but to sanctimoniously nearly gloat over the events described is pathetic. P-U-H-thetic.
Thus, have I spoken.
VC dogma? Where? This has nothing to do with "VC".
Without any means to support the above statement? Have you read anything about inattentional blindness and the role of relevance? Can there be any doubt that drivers instinctively and naturally pay much more attention to what is ahead in their paths than to something that is not? And, again, I'm not talking about the 3 seconds leading up to the crash, I'm talking about the 40 seconds leading up to the crash. During that time the driver had to pay some attention to the road ahead at least some of the time in order to remain on the road. And during those moments of paying even the briefest attention, can there be any doubt that a cyclist up ahead in his lane is much more likely to grab his attention than a cyclist off to the side in the shoulder?
To state categorically that riding VC here would have made a difference is preposterous? First, I didn't say anything about riding VC. Riding in the shoulder here is arguably VC too. Second, you took my statement out of context. In the full context it was clear that I did not mean it to be categorically certain that the driver would notice the cyclist had he been in the lane rather in the shoulder. I went into great detail explaining how it is much more likely that the cyclist would be noticed, and, in the unlikely event that he wasn't, the cyclist would be able to tell and take appropriate action, including, if necessary, a last ditch effort to bail.
"You picked 'shoulder'? Loser! You're dead now!" That's misrepresenting what I said, though revealing about how much you read into other people's words. My words were, simply:
looking at your original picture, it depends on traffic, head. speaking from experience, not the armchair, having ridden thousands of miles, tens of thousands of miles, on roads just like that one, ride in the lane or on the shoulder, depending on traffic conditions. No problems.
Here's a picture taken on the fly, riding IN that wide of a shoulder, and no traffic. no problem.
If you click on the photo in the OP, it will take you to the article about the cyclists hit from behind while riding single file in that shoulder. No problem. :rolleyes:
to sanctimoniously nearly gloat over the events described? I'm not gloating. When I describe in theory why riding blindly in shoulders and bike lanes, especially on long/straight quiet roads, leaves one vulnerable to inadvertent drift, I'm dismissed for talking about "pure theory". When I try to bring attention to the problem by raising awareness of the role of inattentional blindness and relevancy in actual incidents of inadvertent drift into cyclists riding in a shoulder like this, I'm accused of "sanctimoniously nearly gloat". Yet all I'm trying to do raise awareness about how to ride safely.
why, heklemt head, do you think drivers don't pay attention to things on the sides of the road? and only pay attention to things DIRECTLY in their path?
I see some grandiose, flawed jumps in logic here.
again, running high vis gear, daytime blinkies and a slo motion triangle WILL get a bicyclist noticed, even 10 feet to the right of the fog line, or in another lane altogther on 4 lane roads.
Purporting a bicyclist needs to be directly in front of closing traffic, for extended periods of time, until that car weaves or slows noticably, is fear based paranoia manifesting as a part timer's riding advice.
Yet all I'm trying to do raise awareness about how to ride safely.
How to Ride Safely:rolleyes: IAW the HH Gospels as interpreted/conjured by Helmet Head. No thanks.
how many miles do you think Head has actually ridden as described in the original post, without the weekend peloton?
And where do you ride with semis approaching from opposite directions, closing at roughly the same time, head? do you surmise (as I doubt much actual experience) you'll slow the semis down, until they move over or slow noticably, before moving into the shoulder?
WHY do some of you think that shoulder is unsafe to ride in at any time? it's not a crumbling fog line..... I see lots of fearmongering.
Your attempts to create controversy, and feign innocence through semantic arguments are tiresome.
I stand by my comments. You're pathetic.
HH - whats your point? objective? what do you hope to gain by this thread? (knowledge, insight, better riding practices?)
HH - whats your point? objective? what do you hope to gain by this thread? (knowledge, insight, better riding practices?)
HH - whats your point? objective? what do you hope to gain by this thread? (knowledge, insight, better riding practices?)
My hobby for the last few years has been to develop defensive driving best practices for cycling that avoid crashes. From reading Forester, Hurst, Franklin and Bluejay, the basics are pretty clear. But the one type of crash that seemed to occur much too often that none of the techniques address was what I call the inadvertent drift into the unnoticed cyclists in the shoulder or bike lane. This first caught my attention a few years ago when three cyclists were killed in separate incidents within a few months like this in California's Sonoma County. I then began to notice that it's not all that rare. I can't find a study that discriminates "inadvertent drift" from other types of overtaking collisions, but based on the incidents I read about, it seems to be almost all of them that are not classic right hooks. The article associated with clicking on the photo in the OP is very typical.
So I realized that this is the only type of collision for which my riding practices did not protect against, and I began to think about how I could address it. About that time I also began using a mirror and learning to adopt Franklin's centerish "primary riding position" more often, and everything kind of fell together:
When faster same direction traffic (fsdt) is not present, ride centered.
Monitor all traffic, especially for turning conflicts ahead, but also for the situation behind using the mirror.
When fsdt is approaching from behind, monitor for signs that you've been noticed (slowing down, lateral adjustment). Make adjustments to get their attention if no signs are given (adjust left, zig-zag, use slow/stop signal, look back). Note that this is rarely required. Prepare to bail (I've never had to do that).
If there is room to the side (like a shoulder or bike lane) and it is safe to do so, use it only temporarily to facilitate passing of you, but as soon as the fsdt has passed, move back into your default centerish position.I've been riding that way ever since, and whenever I try to advocate it, I get nothing but flack.
I've been riding that way ever since, and whenever I try to advocate it, I get nothing but flack.
For darn good reasons, all of which you ignore. Constant repetition of your conjuring doesn't generate credibility anymore than your semantic tricks or rhetorical excess.
If you keep asking the same questions, you'll keep getting the same answers, Bek.
why, heklemt head, do you think drivers don't pay attention to things on the sides of the road? and only pay attention to things DIRECTLY in their path?
Because of the role that relevance plays in inattentional blindness. If you don't accept the basics of inattentional blindness, you're never going to understand.
Ironically, inattentional blindness can be caused by too little mental load. When confronted with a monitoring task where the chance of an important event is low, people become bored, and they cease paying close attention. Arousal level drops and attention wanders. People may also go on "auto-pilot" when performing highly practiced tasks, such as driving.
...
The driver who hit the bicyclist had pulled into the same driveway every workday for a year and had never seen anyone. She had unconsciously learned that there wasn't anything important to see down the sidewalk.http://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/inattentionalblindness.html
What I'm saying is that drivers, by driving for years and years passing cyclists in shoulders and bike lanes as if they are not even there without incident, subconsciously learn that there isn't anything important to notice when cyclists are up ahead in the shoulder up ahead. Practically speaking, that puts the onus on us to grab their attention during the period of time they are closing on us from behind.
I see some grandiose, flawed jumps in logic here.
again, running high vis gear, daytime blinkies and a slo motion triangle WILL get a bicyclist noticed, even 10 feet to the right of the fog line, or in another lane altogther on 4 lane roads.
Those techniques only address sensory conspicuity.
There is more to conspicuity that just sensory quality. "Cognitive conspicuity" is equally or more important for drawing attention. We are much more likely to notice things which are relevant to us in some way. http://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/inattentionalblindness.html
Purporting a bicyclist needs to be directly in front of closing traffic, for extended periods of time, until that car weaves or slows noticably, is fear based paranoia manifesting as a part timer's riding advice.It's just a rational and natural means of communication, dude. Drivers wave and smile at me much often than they honk. They appreciate my efforts to communicate and let them know what they're supposed to do. It's really not a big deal. The alternative is to play sitting duck in the shoulder or bike lane. Ask the guys with back braces (and they're the lucky ones). Thanks, but no thanks.
The conditions are largely visible in the photo, chip. Nice bright sunny day, no other traffic at the moment.
And that moment lasts how long? :rolleyes:
Riding is dynamic, not static.
And where do you ride with semis approaching from opposite directions, closing at roughly the same time, head? do you surmise (as I doubt much actual experience) you'll slow the semis down, until they move over or slow noticably, before moving into the shoulder?
With a wide semi coming up behind me and another coming from the opposite direction, I'd want to be in the middle of the lane as early as possible (which is why I'd ride there by default) to get that semi driver to start slowing down. Any amount of slowing on his part would allow the first semi to reach me sooner and give him a clear shot to pass me in the oncoming lane. I would not trust a semi driver to have the complete control of his entire rig, including the trailer, that would be needed in order to safely pass me at full speed while cycling in a 1.5 foot shoulder. I would have a little more trust at a slower speed but would only move over if I saw that it would be a long time before he could pass in the other lane (in which case I might just move off the road completely and let him get on with his day).
My hobby for the last few years has been to develop defensive driving best practices for cycling that avoid crashes. From reading Forester, Hurst, Franklin and Bluejay, the basics are pretty clear.
My hobby for the last few years has been to develop best practices for brain surgery. From reading a bunch of books on anatomy and the New England Journal of Medicine, the basics are pretty clear. :lol:
And that moment lasts how long? :rolleyes:
Riding is dynamic, not static.
Of course, this is key to my point. But never-the-less, the decisions made dynamically are not made randomly in a vacuum. They are in response to ever-changing conditions. What I'm asking is where you would ride with the given conditions depicted at the moment in the still photo in the OP.
Also, some people might pick a course and stick to it, while others might pick a position based on the presence of fsdt.
With a wide semi coming up behind me and another coming from the opposite direction, I'd want to be in the middle of the lane as early as possible (which is why I'd ride there by default) to get that semi driver to start slowing down. Any amount of slowing on his part would allow the first semi to reach me sooner and give him a clear shot to pass me in the oncoming lane. I would not trust a semi driver to have the complete control of his entire rig, including the trailer, that would be needed in order to safely pass me at full speed while cycling in a 1.5 foot shoulder. I would have a little more trust at a slower speed but would only move over if I saw that it would be a long time before he could pass in the other lane (in which case I might just move off the road completely and let him get on with his day).
:beer:
My hobby for the last few years has been to develop defensive driving best practices for cycling that avoid crashes. From reading Forester, Hurst, Franklin and Bluejay, the basics are pretty clear.
My hobby for the last few years has been to develop best practices for brain surgery. From reading a bunch of books on anatomy and the New England Journal of Medicine, the basics are pretty clear. :lol:
Yeah, traffic cycling is just as complex as brain surgery. Good analogy. :rolleyes:
I'm not riding in the traffic flow on any road where the common speed would be more than 55mph. The rate of closure is simply too high. Someone can travel a couple hundred feet in the time it takes to pick a cd up off the floor or hand a bag of goldfish to a kid in the backseat.
Yeah, traffic cycling is just as complex as brain surgery. Good analogy. :rolleyes:
No worries HH, someday when you actually have some traffic cycling experience under your belt, you might better understand what can be applied from all them books, and what goes out the window as soon at the rubber meets the road.
....
The key to be not hit is to be noticed. ....
The key to be 'not hit' is situational awareness, that is, to remain one step ahead of any road users who may not notice you, given that you may (will) go unnoticed even while riding in the most conspcuous possible position.
Robert
The key to be 'not hit' is situational awareness, that is, to remain one step ahead of any road users who may not notice you, given that you may (will) go unnoticed even while riding in the most conspcuous possible position.
Let's not deface the ivory tower with ugly ole reality, Robert.
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