As a helmet wearing cyclist do you also support helmet use in cars? [Archive]

tallard

08-20-07, 08:00 PM

maddyfish

08-20-07, 08:10 PM

Well I don't use a helmet in the car. But I would not object to it I guess.

I wonder if it is legal?

AlucardZero

08-20-07, 08:13 PM

Race car drivers have to...

kendall

08-20-07, 09:18 PM

tallard

08-20-07, 09:31 PM

didn't vote because you don't have the selection required. I enjoy the wind in my hair so don't like helmets, I would rather die young then to be afraid of living.
ken.

Ha, this mind I know, even though my hair really needs to be tied or I'll look like a used mophead! I tie it high, so the tail flows, and some air makes through to my scalp.

I made the vote like that because it's really the helmet wearer's mind I'm curious about :)

Remember in Easy Rider Jack Nicholson's line in a football helmet, at the campfire with a joint between Peter Fonda and Denis Hopper. "People say they want freedom but when they meet freedom, they fear it."

tallard

08-20-07, 09:42 PM

... That fact doesn't mean that some folks don't have legitimate reasons to wear helmets.

Hey, all I ask is if people use consistency in reasoning...

Dchiefransom

08-20-07, 09:48 PM

I wear a helmet on my bicycle for a different type of accident than the one that would cause head trauma in my motor vehicle. I DO use the stats posted in other threads though, to counter statements by vehicle drivers about mandatory helmet use on bicycles, and cyclists that are vehemently pro helmet.

dynodonn

08-20-07, 10:08 PM

Would I support an average motorist using a helmet will driving on public roads? My answer is no, for I do not wish to give motorists anymore incentive to drive faster than they all ready do, and besides the interior/restraints of today's cars is far safer than interiors/restraints of cars in past years. For many years now, I have worn a helmet while riding a bicycle,(byproduct of motorcycling/auto racing involvement), and after yesterday's crash and putting the ol' noggin to the asphalt, only reinforced my belief of wearing a helmet everytime I ride a bicycle.

syn0n

08-20-07, 11:03 PM

I'm reconsidering my no-helmet attitude for my bike. I ride on a bunch of hilly desert roads and speeds can get quite high, and I'd rather not end up with serious injuries. In the car? I'd rather just upgrade the car with a 4 point seat belt and if I was really concerned, a roll cage.

Blue Order

08-20-07, 11:15 PM

Which is a prime reason to wear a helmet when driving...As I can attest; when I was rear-ended at a stop light, my head snapped back and hit the roll bar. It rang my head like a bell.

syn0n

08-20-07, 11:41 PM

Which is a prime reason to wear a helmet when driving...
True enough, I suppose. I imagine if I ever opt for a roll cage, a helmet would probably be on the list too. To be honest, though, if I was involved in a crash that was bad enough to injure me to where I'd be paralyzed, I'd rather not have my protect my head just so I can end up a prisioner in my own body. This is why I'd never use a helmet alone in a car without other serious safety modifications.

Blue Jays

08-20-07, 11:45 PM

Might see a small uptick in total number of accidents due to decreased peripheral vision and hearing if car drivers adopted helmet use.

AEO

08-21-07, 01:43 AM

remember #3 Dale? snapped his neck because his seatbelt restrained his body while his helmet + head continued to move forward. If you're going to install a roll cage in your car and bother with wearing a helmet, then get the HANS too.

the guys in SUVs and pickups will still laugh at you for wearing a helmet and scoff at the idea about a roll cage since they believe the bigger it is, the safer it is. There's only so much you can protect against with armor. After that it's all skill, which most drivers lack.

Bad/drunk drivers kill a lot of people each year. Although protecting your noggin might be a good idea, I do believe getting those drivers off the road in the first place would be a better option.

Mortality is 100% there's no avoiding it. It's just your actions that make it come quicker or later for you. So I guess paying attention to your surroundings is a lot better than limiting your perception with a full helmet in a car.

tspoon

08-21-07, 01:44 AM

Always wear helmet and agree. But it needs to be a helmet that won't work. Won't get much forum-mileage out of proper helmets.

ralph12

08-21-07, 01:51 AM

I'm amazed at how often some bike riders hit their heads...I mean sometimes it just seems a little crazy, to hear about people who bang their heads on something more than a few times in a lifetime. If you're doing that, I think you could be more careful, helmet or not. I haven't ever hit my head while riding a bike, and I have at some points pulled some pretty stupid moves here and there.

I think the helmet on bike/in a car comparison is interesting, though I didn't vote in the poll. I wear a helmet every time while riding my motorcycle, sometimes on my bike, and I rarely drive cars and don't own one. I HAVE considered wearing a helmet in one, but I think the hassle wouldn't be worth the possible reduced risk.

cyclezealot

08-21-07, 02:11 AM

Helmets are so natural to me, I often find myself forgetting to take it off after I start driving. Usually discover it the first time I look into the rear view mirror. As to wearing it in the car, I see no harm in it. Yet, what is the use - an engine crashing into one's chest is a serious matter . You'd likely be dead before your head impacted the steering wheel.

tallard

08-21-07, 02:31 AM

I'm amazed at how often some bike riders hit their heads...I mean sometimes it just seems a little crazy, to hear about people who bang their heads on something more than a few times in a lifetime. If you're doing that, I think you could be more careful, helmet or not. I haven't ever hit my head while riding a bike, and I have at some points pulled some pretty stupid moves here and there.

I really like your point, people have way to many collisions, something's for sure wrong there, I've only had one in 31 years of 365 days a year driving in all climes and conditions and distances, and that was a little ole near sighted lady who caused the collision. I've replied the rest of my thoughts in helmet thread instead as it this would turn into another helmet story

OH306

08-21-07, 06:35 AM

Jeeze tallard, give up on this helmet fetish. Next you'll be posting a poll on side curtain airbags for bicycles, which would be just as ridiculous but at least appropriate on a bicycle forum. Most people on this forum hate cars, refer to car drivers as 'cagers' and wish them all dead anyway. You are probably in that group. Although you were unable to express yourself, ("and hence causing the most financially to society"), your poll is only a thinly veiled attempt to express your opinion that motorists as a financial burden to society.

bike2math

08-21-07, 07:08 AM

I wonder if it is legal?

According to some websites which sell the full line of Bell helmets; some of their automobile helmets are not street legal. I'm guessingg it is a peripheral vision issue, as modern cars are essentially sound isolation chambers even without the helmet. On the other hand I've seen some vans and trucks out on the road that had blind spots the size of a small SUV even without a helmet on the driver.

I was thinking about this issue lately: I think if I saw another driver wearing a helmet I would stay very far away from them. Especially if their car was dinged up.

I-Like-To-Bike

08-21-07, 07:09 AM

Most people on this forum hate cars, refer to car drivers as 'cagers' and wish them all dead anyway.
Iz dat a fact, Jack? :rolleyes: Maybe you are confused, the Living Car Free List is south of this on the index.

intrepidbiker

08-21-07, 07:19 AM

hence causing the most financially to society
Which is one of the reasons that I am against socialized medicine. If I have to pay for your medical bills from your errors in judgement (IV drug abuse, riding without a helmet, not wearing a seatbelt, smoking, etc)... then I am going to fight to make those errors illegal to lower my tax burden.

In other words, such actions lead to a reduction in our freedoms.

bike2math

08-21-07, 07:21 AM

I'm amazed at how often some bike riders hit their heads...I mean sometimes it just seems a little crazy, to hear about people who bang their heads on something more than a few times in a lifetime. If you're doing that, I think you could be more careful, helmet or not. I haven't ever hit my head while riding a bike, and I have at some points pulled some pretty stupid moves here and there.

Certainly some of us are more accident prone than others. Maybe it's being careful; or maybe it is just a problem with a sense of balance or reaction times. I'm a pretty awkward geek; and it just doesn't surprise me that I have a larger than normal number of crashes. For whatever reason most of my crashes result in my head at some point contacting the ground. I have never once regreted wearing my helmet after a crash.

Sure I could ride at 5 mph and virtually guaruntee that I will never ever crash. But what would be the point? I'm using my bike as transportation and excersise, which means I need to push it as fast as it can go.

rhm

08-21-07, 07:24 AM

I did not vote in your poll because I did not understand it. Are you arguing that everyone in every car should wear a helmet? Is that what I'd be agreeing to? You can't be serious, so I'm not voting.

I have been using a helmet for virtually all bicycle riding since 1978, and so far it has done me no good, since I have not yet crashed and hit my head.

Similarly, I have been wearing a seatbelt for virtually all car riding since... oh, let's say 1978 too. And so far it has done me no good, since I have not been in a car crash in all that time.

I understand and endorse the libertarian principle that the law shouldn't tell me how to behave if what I'm doing has no potential for harming anyone but myself. But that's not what this is about. Seatbelts reduce the number of injuries and fatalities due to car crashes, thus reducing strain on emergency rooms &c, lowering healthcare costs for everyone and improving everyone's chances of surviving [insert healthcare emergency of your choice]. Bicycle helmets are intended to do the same thing. Whether they actually do so is another matter entirely, and that doesn't seem to be what we're arguing about anyway.

People in cars don't need helmets. They need seat belts.
People on bikes don't need seat belts. They need helmets.

That's why they should be required.

dynodonn

08-21-07, 07:34 AM

tallard

08-21-07, 09:40 AM

Which is one of the reasons that I am against socialized medicine. If I have to pay for your medical bills from your errors in judgement (IV drug abuse, riding without a helmet, not wearing a seatbelt, smoking, etc)... then I am going to fight to make those errors illegal to lower my tax burden.

Isn't it so that 80% of Americans have insurance, and those who don't have money can go to most public hospitals and be treated at the governments expense?

So what's the difference between government pooling your health risk vs an Insurance Company pooling your health risk? So I must assume by your post that motorists receiving head injuries is part of the cost you're willing to bear.

Bekologist

08-21-07, 09:50 AM

80 percent of americans having insurance is wrong. and the remaining 20 percent being treated at government expense is also wrong..

my, what errors drive your logic, tallard.

I've ridden with a helmet for decades, and have banged myself up in that time. every time I've crashed without a helmet (couple of exceptions to wearing the helemt), the injuries were more severe.

anecdotally then, & thru personal experience, makes me WANT to wear a helemt while bicycng.

I could care less what headgear drivers choose to wear.....

nova

08-21-07, 09:52 AM

don't wear a helmet when cycling, prefer not wearing one on a motorcycle, would not wear one in a car.

didn't vote because you don't have the selection required.

I enjoy the wind in my hair so don't like helmets, I would rather die young then to be afraid of living.

ken.

edit: wore helmet on bike twice, realy disliked it.

Its funny my boss feels much safer helmetless on a motorcycle than with one yet will never ride with out a helmet on a bike. He feels less safe on a motorcycle because it blocks his vision to much. And i can see wheres hes coming from. Simply put motor cycle helmets are really badly thought out. They tend to block you perifrial (sp?) vision totally forcing you to turn your head much further than a bike helmet.

Zeuser

08-21-07, 09:55 AM

As a wearer of helmets in cars (when I go racing), I can tell you that most cars are not properly designed for helmet use.

But there's a difference between bikes, motorcycles and cars. For one thing one a bike or motorcycle you get good airflow in your face so you can breathe and cool off. Some cars have really weak A/Cs and wearing a helmet would be unbearable for more than a few minutes. This is from racing experience (solo 1 & 2) and I just can't see myself wearing a helmet for longer than a few minutes in some cars because of the heat. Good thing I wear a ... um... what's it called again (vocabulary blank) underneath the helmet or the lining in my helmet would be dripping with sweat. uck!

stonecrd

08-21-07, 10:07 AM

It is all about perceived risk. That is why these discussions are like religion. I perceive I am more at risk riding on my bike than in the car so I am more comfortable with a helmet when riding and don't wear one in the car. This may not statistically be the case but very few people base their decisions on that.

I-Like-To-Bike

08-21-07, 10:22 AM

Good thing I wear a ... um... what's it called again (vocabulary blank) underneath the helmet or the lining in my helmet would be dripping with sweat. uck!
Tin foil liner? Aluminum colander? :)

tallard

08-21-07, 12:08 PM

80 percent of americans having insurance is TRUE. and the remaining 20 percent being treated at PUBLIC HOSPITALS/ government expense is also mostly TRUE.

Nearly 47 million Americans, or 16 percent of the population, were without health insurance in 2005, the latest government data available (1).http://www.nchc.org/facts/coverage.shtml

The essential provisions of the EMTALA statute are as follows:
Any patient who "comes to the emergency department" requesting "examination or treatment for a medical condition" must be provided with "an appropriate medical screening examination" to determine if he is suffering from an "emergency medical condition". If he is, then the hospital is obligated to either provide him with treatment until he is stable or to transfer him to another hospital in conformance with the statute's directives.
http://www.emtala.com/faq.htm
EMTALA applies only to "participating hospitals" -- i.e., to hospitals which have entered into "provider agreements" under which they will accept payment from the Department of Health and Human Services, Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) under the Medicare program for services provided to beneficiaries of that program. In practical terms, this means that it applies to virtually all hospitals in the U.S., with the exception of the Shriners' Hospital for Crippled Children and many military hospitals. Its provisions apply to all patients, and not just to Medicare patients.

San Rensho

08-21-07, 12:33 PM

A POLL ON HELMET USE FOR CYCLES AND AUTOMOBILES.

PLEASE VOTE

This is an item of constant curiosity for me. Given that statistics clearly demonstrate that notwithstanding seatbelts an airbags, motorists are still the major sufferers of head injuries and hence causing the most financially to society. What do helmet users think...

Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. And there is no inconsistency in not making drivers wear helmets.

Your premise is completely incorrecti. You are saying that car drivers suffer the most head injuries, but you conveniently leave out that PER ACCIDENT head injuries to car drivers is much lower than per accident head injuries to cyclists (or motorcyclists). You crash your car, very unlikely you will hit your head. You crash your bike (or motorcycle) there is a very good chance you will hit your head.

And the head injuries suffered by car drivers are usually by those that don't wear seat belts.

Safety is all about a utilitarian calculus. The benefit v. the burden. It would be fairly burdensome to make all car drivers wear helmets all the time, and since seat belts will prevent 99.9% of the head injuries, a helmet provides very little additional safety to a car driver compared to the burden of wearing a helmet.

However, since it is likely you will hit your head in a bicycle accident, then the burden of wearing a helmet is minimal compared to the benefits of less head injuries when you are wearing a helmet.

tallard

08-21-07, 12:50 PM

Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. And there is no inconsistency in not making drivers wear helmets.

Well at least it's not as little as all the incompetent cyclists constantly crashing... :D

Your premise is completely incorrecti. You are saying that car drivers suffer the most head injuries, but you conveniently leave out that PER ACCIDENT head injuries to car drivers is much lower than per accident head injuries to cyclists (or motorcyclists).

But one could say that discussing total cost transferred to pooled insurance care is just as important as per licensed injury (which mostly disregards per mile or per time lapse anyhow), increases your insurance premiums enough to justify wearing specially designed car helmets... Maybe you'd do it if your insurance company rewarded you by lowering your premium?

And the head injuries suffered by car drivers are usually by those that don't wear seat belts.

As most head injuries suffered by cyclists are caused by dumb cyclist behavior

San Rensho

08-21-07, 01:08 PM

But one could say that discussing total cost transferred to pooled insurance care is just as important as per licensed injury (which mostly disregards per mile or per time lapse anyhow), increases your insurance premiums enough to justify wearing specially designed car helmets... Maybe you'd do it if your insurance company rewarded you by lowering your premium?

Wearing a helmet in a car would not significantly decrease head injuries in comparison to wearing a seat belt. In a catastrophic accident that seat belts and iar bags doesn't prevent a head injury, a helmet will make little difference, so insurance companies wouldn't give you a break on something that is not going to lower their risk.

Like I said before, your premise is wrong because wearing a helmet in a car will not significantly reduce head injuries from car crashes.

OH306

08-21-07, 01:58 PM

Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. And there is no inconsistency in not making drivers wear helmets.

Your premise is completely incorrecti. You are saying that car drivers suffer the most head injuries, but you conveniently leave out that PER ACCIDENT head injuries to car drivers is much lower than per accident head injuries to cyclists (or motorcyclists). You crash your car, very unlikely you will hit your head. You crash your bike (or motorcycle) there is a very good chance you will hit your head.

And the head injuries suffered by car drivers are usually by those that don't wear seat belts.

Safety is all about a utilitarian calculus. The benefit v. the burden. It would be fairly burdensome to make all car drivers wear helmets all the time, and since seat belts will prevent 99.9% of the head injuries, a helmet provides very little additional safety to a car driver compared to the burden of wearing a helmet.

However, since it is likely you will hit your head in a bicycle accident, then the burden of wearing a helmet is minimal compared to the benefits of less head injuries when you are wearing a helmet.

Don't muddle his mind with logic and fact Sam. He has his agenda and will manipulate all facts to make them fit.

I-Like-To-Bike

08-21-07, 02:34 PM

Source? ("I just think so" doesn't count)

How 'bout: "cauz I sez so"? That seems to be the source of many BF posters' knowledge about measuring/evaluating risk as well as determining the causes of bicycling accidents.

spencejm

08-21-07, 03:00 PM

As most head injuries suffered by cyclists are caused by dumb cyclist behavior

Exactly! By not wearing a helmet!

closetbiker

08-21-07, 03:45 PM

...your premise is wrong because wearing a helmet in a car will not significantly reduce head injuries from car crashes.

but has it been shown that helmet use for bicycles have reduced head injuries? The most complete and extensive studies (Robinson, Rogers) have shown no reduction despite the use of them.

I know in my province, it was claimed that there was a reduction in head injuries, but it was shown that there was an exact reduction of non-head injuries. Coincidently, the death rate remained the same despite the reduction of riders

OH306

08-21-07, 06:33 PM

but has it been shown that helmet use for bicycles have reduced head injuries? The most complete and extensive studies (Robinson, Rogers) have shown no reduction despite the use of them.

I know in my province, it was claimed that there was a reduction in head injuries, but it was shown that there was an exact reduction of non-head injuries. Coincidently, the death rate remained the same despite the reduction of riders

You want to try all that again so we can have some idea of what you're saying? Who are Robinson & Rogers .. do they have a sitcom on TV?

KrisPistofferson

08-21-07, 06:50 PM

I don't own a car, wear a helmet %90 of the time, and feel that this topic is extremely silly.

LittleBigMan

08-21-07, 07:10 PM

Would you agree to helmet use in automobiles?
Your question is an apples and oranges comparison.

On many rides I smack my head a half dozen times.

When driving, I don't run the same risk.

It has nothing to do with "consistency" since the threats that I face are not the same when participating in each activity.
Smacked your head half a dozen times in one ride?

You wouldn't be riding in the mountains, would you?

closetbiker

08-21-07, 07:16 PM

You want to try all that again so we can have some idea of what you're saying? Who are Robinson & Rogers .. do they have a sitcom on TV?

I guess that indicates how far you've looked into the issue. Try and look it up and read them. They're 2 of the most complete and extensive studies done on wearing helmets on bicycles

LittleBigMan

08-21-07, 07:18 PM

The net effect of helmet-wearing among motorists in saving lives would dwarf the safety effect of helmet-wearing cyclists.

LittleBigMan

08-21-07, 07:20 PM

I spend some time riding off-road where doing a modified limbo prevents many head smacks, but not all.
You talk about "apples and oranges," but you've smacked your head twice as many times in one day than I have in over 10 years.

OH306

08-21-07, 07:37 PM

I guess that indicates how far you've looked into the issue. Try and look it up and read them. They're 2 of the most complete and extensive studies done on wearing helmets on bicycles

Let me try this slower for you ... Whooooooooo arrrrrrrreeeeeeee Rrrrooooggggeeeerrrrrsssss &&&&& Rrrrrooooobbbbbiiiiiiinnnnnnsssssssoooooooonnnnnnn.:) They do their studies while wearing helmets on bicycles?????:D Are you sure they're not a TV sitcom? How do you know they are the most complete and extensive studies? Have you read them all?