They alos follow, as well as follwo those two paras

Ditto also/alos

Ditto also/alos

Note: Now that you have more time, why not go back and edit your first quick post to read like you intended, and delete all the following confusing corrections? Just a suggestion.

But if the driver can drive the thing properly then it won't swing out of his own lane. If he does he's driving without due care and attention, just like you were cycling in the middle of your lane.

I see, I should rely on others to drive properly and care for my safety. Now that would be careless.
What makes you think I was cycling without due care and attention. Can you read my mind from a video?


I'd say you're like a pig in $hit, blissfully ignorant of your predicament. Cycling in the centre of the lane you will eventually get your come-uppance and I hope you have your health insurance paid up. Me, well I'm pretty happy to cycle as near to the kerb as possible without my head up my ar$e in full knowledge that I'm in safe territory and that I won't be pi$$ing off all the motorists behind me.
I'd just leave it as we disagree quite significantly.
I am curious however where you would ride in a lane that is too narrow to share side by side.

Al

The advice of the police officers that the best place to ride was next to the kerb is regarded as wrong in the latest national version of the CP course (now known as Bikeability) and is regarded, by anyone with any real qualifications on road safety and cycling, as outdated and hazardous.


This stuff is just hilarious. Who's got the highest "qualifications", who has the best "expert", who has taken which courses or read which books. I'm left wondering, once again, why this whacky subset of cyclists have decided that riding a bike -- even riding to work, gasp! -- is some kind of mysterious art.

"Real qualifications", he says. *snicker*

I am curious however where you would ride in a lane that is too narrow to share side by side.



Just a word of warning to the recipient of this question: first, be advised that the VC definition of "too narrow to share" goes up to about 21 feet, according to some of the more unique calculations bandied about here. Then, keep in mind that once you start the "scenarios" game it will never end, and you will get to the point that you are considering jumping out the window rather than answer the 348th "Well, what about ______?!?" scenario.

HTH!

Just a word of warning to the recipient of this question: first, be advised that the VC definition of "too narrow to share" goes up to about 21 feet, according to some of the more unique calculations bandied about here. Then, keep in mind that once you start the "scenarios" game it will never end, and you will get to the point that you are considering jumping out the window rather than answer the 348th "Well, what about ______?!?" scenario.
!
First of all the responder can define what too narrow to share is if they like. I am also not a VC, I can't be as I've never read any of the books, so I can't be assuming a VC definition.

If the responder does not want to define what too narrow to share is, lets just say 11ft. as that is the width of the lane in JJ situation and a common width for narrow lanes where I live.
Al

If the responder does not want to define what too narrow to share is, lets just say 11ft. as that is the width of the lane in JJ situation...

Never mind that the shoulder actually looks to be wider than the lane...

Never mind that the shoulder actually looks to be wider than the lane...

I am thinking of a lane with no shoulder, no space on right, just a curb. Like as seen in the attached image.
http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=34620&d=1168965110

Score one point for SixJ due to scenario clarification #1. ;)

Al

riding two abreast, this is perfectly acceptable in UK law as long as they don't cause an obstruction to following traffic.

Law? I think not. Maybe the Green Cross Code. But certainly not a Law.

Of course, we often experienced the ire of motorists who might be "held up" for a short while, since some seemed to regard overtaking single-file riders on a narrow, winding road with blind bends as their god-given right.

I'll bet you have. Remind me not to let you near any of my kids.

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt"!
ABRAHAM LINCOLN (1809 - 1865)

1Easyrider - it is a shame that you did not follow Abe's sapient advice...

1Easyrider - it is a shame that you did not follow Abe's sapient advice...

There's always one person who trys to be a clever dick isn't there. I supplied the maggot and you gobbled it up.

I think we should leave it with the judge:

"GUILTY AS CHARGED. Go to jail. Go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect £200 and do not ride your bike like a pilloc$ again".

If anyone disagrees and if you're lucky enough then you'll endure the same fate as JoeJack. If you're not so lucky you could be taken away in a white van with flashing lights.

There are people that say, "you lose" and people that say "keep fighting."

If you believe in bicycling, then it is time to notch this up and appeal at a higher level court, but this time, contact the local bike advocacy groups and your representatives. A local bike advocacy group will eat this up and will put the spotlight on the fact that we as a nation are trying to reduce our dependency on fossil fuels but Delaware is aggressively trying to keep people from achieving this goal.
They have lawyers and members who know the law and can help you.

If anyone disagrees and if you're lucky enough then you'll endure the same fate as JoeJack. If you're not so lucky you could be taken away in a white van with flashing lights.

You're great on unsupported opinion, worthless conjecture and general doltishness; happily these are a few of the requisites for A&S contributors, so you'll fit right in...

You're great on unsupported opinion, worthless conjecture and general doltishness; happily these are a few of the requisites for A&S contributors, so you'll fit right in...


Like I said: "There's always one"!

The advice of the police officers that the best place to ride was next to the kerb is regarded as wrong in the latest national version of the CP course (now known as Bikeability)

The traffic portion of the instructor manual may be seen here:
http://www.bikeability.org.uk/downloads/Bikeability_skills%20course2.pdf
http://www.bikeability.org.uk/

From the manual:

ROAD POSITION• When starting and stopping, the cycle should be in close to the kerb so that the left foot can be put down on to the kerb.
• When riding along, the cyclist should be far enough away from the kerb to avoid drains and gutters. This means a minimum of
half a metre.
• When passing side roads, the cyclist should move further out in order to be more visible and further from the mouth of the junction.
• Their position when turning out of a side road can vary with the width of the junction. Ideally if the road is narrow they will take up a position to discourage any car driver from coming up beside them. Left of the centre of their lane when going left, right when
going right.
• When turning into a side road, they should not be too close to the kerb, nor should they turn until they have a clear view into the side road.

RIDING POSITIONS
Primary Position
A position that is further out from the kerb, taking control of the entire width of the lane.
Following traffic must stay behind or use the next lane to overtake.
This position is used when passing road
junctions and road narrowings, or when the cyclist wishes to discourage other traffic
from overtaking.
Secondary Position
A position up to a metre away from the kerb, allowing traffic to pass in the same lane.



So it looks like even 10 year olds in the UK are being taught how and when to use the center of the lane.

If you're not so lucky you could be taken away in a white van with flashing lights.

If I were you, I'd be more concerned about the flashing lights of an approaching ambulance; I fear you could be sectioned anytime now...

The traffic portion of the instructor manual may be seen here:
http://www.bikeability.org.uk/downloads/Bikeability_skills%20course2.pdf
http://www.bikeability.org.uk/

From the manual:


So it looks like even 10 year olds in the UK are being taught how and when to use the center of the lane.

Thanks Sggoodri, you've saved me the trouble of looking it up. I'm afraid 1Easyrider won't agree with either you, me or the carefully considered drafting of the Bikeability course, because he once took the, now greatly outdated, Cycling Proficiency Test.

1Easyrider, I'm afraid that you didn't read my last post correctly. there are many roads in the Yorkshire Dales where a driver could squeeze past a club run in single file, but the operating word is squeeze. To do so is against the Highway Code and is, in such cases, unwise, since the riders at the front of the group have a better view of the road ahead than does the driver coming up behind the line.

As for whether or not it is against the law to ride 2 abreast, I have to inform you that it depends entirely on the circumstances. If we ride in twos to prevent a driver from taking risks which he is unable to see, we are riding within the law. Should we, however, hold up traffic for an unreasonable length of time without good cause, then we would, indeed, be in breach of the Highways Act.

As for not letting your kids near me, that's fine by me. Those parents who are happy to come along on our family rides or our YHA weekends know our club members' abilities and know that we would not teach them to ride in any way which would put them at risk. They accompany their kids to every Saturday meeting we hold and we would not be allowed to operate under British Cycling's Go-Ride banner if there was any doubt in the sport's governing body's mind about the safety of our club.

We assess their capacity to understand how to ride safely and consistently before allowing them on such trips and train them on our closed road cycling facility in order to bring them up to speed.

So the young rider known as the Whizz was perfectly safe to ride with his dad on the 70mile Weatherby-Scarborough charity ride at the age of 8 whereas others need considerably more seasoning before we allow them to join in our on-road rides.

As a qualified coach and road safety instructor (advanced - adults as well as children), I am at least as concerned as any parent that their children are safe, as are other, senior members of the club who come out with us.

May I respectfully suggest that you take the updated course - you might be able to improve it by putting forward your ideas, but I rather doubt it.

Please feel free to criticise my ideas with some evidence other than your possession of an outdated CP certificate - criticising me is a failure of argument.

By the way, the Green Cross Code is about child pedestrian safety, not that of child cyclists

This stuff is just hilarious. Who's got the highest "qualifications", who has the best "expert", who has taken which courses or read which books. I'm left wondering, once again, why this whacky subset of cyclists have decided that riding a bike -- even riding to work, gasp! -- is some kind of mysterious art.

"Real qualifications", he says. *snicker*

The Bikeability course was designed for use as a national standard after considerable discussion by experts - i.e. people who could demonstrate through evidential argument what was, and was not, best and safest practice.

The qualifications are, therefore, real. None of the people I know in the cycling road safety field disagree with the programme, and none of them regards cycling - even to work - as "some kind of mysterous art". It is merely a skill / mental awareness / knowledge of traffic behavour process which can be learned and which greatly improves the safety of riders who follow it.

Please feel free to *snicker* but please do so from the viewpoint of a considerable, and coherent, body of knowledge.

The Bikeability course was designed for use as a national standard after considerable discussion by experts - i.e. people who could demonstrate through evidential argument what was, and was not, best and safest practice.

The qualifications are, therefore, real. None of the people I know in the cycling road safety field disagree with the programme, and none of them regards cycling - even to work - as "some kind of mysterous art". It is merely a skill / mental awareness / knowledge of traffic behavour process which can be learned and which greatly improves the safety of riders who follow it.

Please feel free to *snicker* but please do so from the viewpoint of a considerable, and coherent, body of knowledge.


It's bike riding. Something I've been doing and teaching for several decades. And the more I've done, the more I realize how simple it all really is.

Along with that experience has come the realization that almost everybody who holds themselves out as an "expert" in this game falls into one of three categories: the braggarts, the power trippers, and the profiteers.

As for me, I think I'll just go out and ride my bike.

Yesterday on my way to work I got the oppurtunity to discuss road cycling with a state police officer after the pack of vehicles that he was driving in had to slow down to change lanes and pass me. He was second in line in the left lane and turned on his lights soon as he got near me and I pulled over. The conversation started off with him telling me that I should be riding "on the bike path" to my right (to my right was a series of six long right hand turn lanes that interupted the shoulder). I pointed this out to him and let him know that I am supposed to be riding in the roadway. He got his traffic code book out and showed me the far right law which he was read as "as far right as practical in the shoulder." I corrected him about the shoulder part at which point he asked for some ID and went back to his car. He came back out and finally admitted that I was right and that I am supposed to ride in the roadway but that I should be riding just to the left of the solid stripe. He then went on to say that I had left him no choice but to ticket me because I was not cooperating. He stated the obvious, "I guess I'll be seeing you in court," to which I replied, "Sure will."

The rest of the details are as follows. I was travelling at about 20mph in the right hand lane of a 4 lane road (Naamans Road) and was pulled over at the intersection with Dartmouth Woods Road (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=naamans+road+and+dartmouth+woods+road,+wilmington,+de&sll=39.826954,-75.516179&sspn=0.007078,0.013068&ie=UTF8&ll=39.827621,-75.518442&spn=0.007078,0.013068&t=h&z=17&iwloc=addr&om=1). The speed limit on this road is 45mph and the lanes are approximately 11 feet wide (I still need to measure). No minimum speed limit and no prohibition on slow moving vehicles or cyclists. Cyclists regularly use this road but ride in the shoulder/right turn lanes.

The DE law that I was cited for disobeying ($25 fine) reads as follows:

§ 4196. Position on roadway.

(a) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand edge of the roadway except under any of the following circumstances:

(1) When overtaking and passing another bicycle or vehicle proceeding in the same direction;

(2) When preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway; or

(3) When reasonably necessary to avoid conditions including, but not limited to fixed or moving objects, parked or moving vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians, animals, surface hazards or substandard width lanes that make it unsafe to continue along the right-hand edge of roadway. For purposes of this section, a "substandard width lane" is a lane that is too narrow for a bicycle and a vehicle to travel safely side by side within the lane.

(b) Any person operating a bicycle upon a 1-way highway with 2 or more marked traffic lanes and a posted speed limit of less than 30 miles per hour may ride as near the left-hand edge of such roadway as practicable.

(c) Persons riding bicycles upon a roadway shall not ride more than 2 abreast except on paths or parts of roadways set aside for the exclusive use of bicycles. Persons riding 2 abreast shall not impede the normal and reasonable movement of traffic and, on a laned roadway, shall ride within a single lane. (21 Del. C. 1953, § 4194; 54 Del. Laws, c. 160, § 1; 66 Del. Laws, c. 167, § 2.)

http://delcode.delaware.gov/title21/c041/sc12/index.shtml#TopOfPage

Just thought I'd share for the sake of conversation. It should be pretty easy to convince the judge that this cop has no clue. Comments?

That cop sounds like a total tosser. Add another reason for cops to be known as PIGS.

It's bike riding. Something I've been doing and teaching for several decades. And the more I've done, the more I realize how simple it all really is.

I agree that cycling is a simple process - especially if you know what you're doing. It is also a simple process if you don't know what you're doing. Position, awareness of traffic conditions and road layout and responding to the mix, is easy if you know what you're doing. Unfortunately, you can get the position taken by such as 1Easyrider based on an obsolete programme - he, too finds cycling a simple process, but unfortunately, he's wrong

Along with that experience has come the realization that almost everybody who holds themselves out as an "expert" in this game falls into one of three categories: the braggarts, the power trippers, and the profiteers.

I've not met any braggarts or power trippers in the road safety arena and, as for profit, there ain't much potential for it in the UK

As for me, I think I'll just go out and ride my bike.

Enjoy your ride.

Unfortunately, you can get the position taken by such as 1Easyrider based on an obsolete programme - he, too finds cycling a simple process, but unfortunately, he's wrong


Well, "wrong" as defined by some anonymous "experts" I've never heard of, anyway. Meanwhile, the overwhelming majority of experienced cyclists, many of whom have been riding and racing for decades, continue to ride in essentially the manner described by 1Easyrider, regardless of what the self-annointed "experts" might have to say on the matter. Hmm...

Meanwhile, the overwhelming majority of experienced cyclists, many of whom have been riding and racing for decades, continue to ride in essentially the manner described by 1Easyrider.

How do you know this?

It's bike riding. Something I've been doing and teaching for several decades. And the more I've done, the more I realize how simple it all really is.

Meanwhile, the overwhelming majority of experienced cyclists, many of whom have been riding and racing for decades, continue to ride in essentially the manner described by 1Easyrider, regardless of what the self-annointed "experts" might have to say on the matter. Hmm...

The overwhelming majority of experienced cyclists in our area generally have their experience base from lower traffic routes with bike lanes or shoulders and few intersections. There's nothing wrong with that; I choose those routes myself on recreational/training rides on weekends. But the more challenging situations (either in traffic volumes or road configuration) they often write off as "too dangerous" to ride. Yet with certain riding techniques (that are often not needed on weekend rides), many on this forum deal with the more challenging situations with few problems. So it really is simple, if you limit yourself to a subset of the available roads and traffic situations.

How do you know this?

Because 1Easyrider has described how he rides, and it essentially matches my experience rtraining and racing with elite and world class cyclists on several different continents. Which is a big part of the reason why I make fun of the commuters who take themselves and their rules super-seriously and insist that anyone not doing it their way is "wrong". Tell it to your local professional racing team, if you're looking for a laugh.

Now, Brian does make the point that most of these folks will not seek out the busiest urban highways to do their training, and I partially agree with it. Commuters do have to put up with worse traffic, on average, than racers, but it's important to keep in mind that racers tend to live in the same places that commuters do -- and they have to ride through the hearts of Paris and Los Angeles to get to their prefered roads. And yet, in all those years of racing and training, I have yet to ride with an experienced racer that feels the need to block traffic on a routine basis, even in the middle of a big-city rush hour.

Now, Brian does make the point that most of these folks will not seek out the busiest urban highways to do their training, and I partially agree with it. Commuters do have to put up with worse traffic, on average, than racers, but it's important to keep in mind that racers tend to live in the same places that commuters do -- and they have to ride through the hearts of Paris and Los Angeles to get to their prefered roads. And yet, in all those years of racing and training, I have yet to ride with an experienced racer that feels the need to block traffic on a routine basis, even in the middle of a big-city rush hour.

Most racers I know drive to some point from which they begin their training... Others tend to train on off peak times such as weekends.

I know of few, if any, group training rides that take place during rush hour... when most commuters are dealing with real traffic.

Here's a challenge... show me one club (use a link) that has scheduled a training ride during rush hour.

Because 1Easyrider has described how he rides, and it essentially matches my experience rtraining and racing with elite and world class cyclists on several different continents. Which is a big part of the reason why I make fun of the commuters who take themselves and their rules super-seriously and insist that anyone not doing it their way is "wrong". Tell it to your local professional racing team, if you're looking for a laugh.

So on the basis of 1Easyrider's cycling and your experience you still feel qualified to say:


Meanwhile, the overwhelming majority of experienced cyclists, many of whom have been riding and racing for decades, continue to ride in essentially the manner described by 1Easyrider, regardless of what the self-annointed "experts" might have to say on the matter. Hmm...

Don't you think that's quite a narrow sample, Six jours ?

I think we should leave it with the judge:

"GUILTY AS CHARGED. Go to jail. Go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect £200 and do not ride your bike like a pilloc$ again".

If anyone disagrees and if you're lucky enough then you'll endure the same fate as JoeJack. If you're not so lucky you could be taken away in a white van with flashing lights.

I don't think so. The law usually reserves jail for misbehaving motorists, as they are by far the greater threat.

At worst the OP's debt will consist of a sum of money which is far less than the debt owed by all those guilty of driving in the first place. What does that tell us? That, in terms of penalties, the law gives greater preference to traffic code violating cyclists than it even gives to traffic code abiding motorists. This is a case where the punishment fits the "crime" (although driving a motorized vehicle isn't really a crime, civil violations of the traffic code aren't really crimes either).

Because 1Easyrider has described how he rides, and it essentially matches my experience rtraining and racing with elite and world class cyclists on several different continents. Which is a big part of the reason why I make fun of the commuters who take themselves and their rules super-seriously and insist that anyone not doing it their way is "wrong". Tell it to your local professional racing team, if you're looking for a laugh.

Now, Brian does make the point that most of these folks will not seek out the busiest urban highways to do their training, and I partially agree with it. Commuters do have to put up with worse traffic, on average, than racers, but it's important to keep in mind that racers tend to live in the same places that commuters do -- and they have to ride through the hearts of Paris and Los Angeles to get to their prefered roads. And yet, in all those years of racing and training, I have yet to ride with an experienced racer that feels the need to block traffic on a routine basis, even in the middle of a big-city rush hour.

Maybe since racers aren't actually going anywhere, they don't mind being inconvenienced by people trying to take more than their fair share of the road.

Commuting cyclists inconvenience commuting motorists for the same reasons that commuting motorists inconvenience commuting cyclists.There is a limited amount of space on the road and they both want to use it to shorten their commutes. The difference is that cyclists are usually just looking to use the space to which they are legally entitled, while motorists think they can hog the entire road just because they selfishly choose to use an oversized vehicle.

When a motorist is in my way I just go around them. The fact that motorists can't do the same when I am in their way is not my fault. If they're not happy with how the size of their vehicles prevents them from smoothly negotiating traffic then they should use smaller vehicles. If a motorist can't get around a legally riding cyclist in a safe and legal manner then he should take it up with the car dealership, not the cyclist.

Most racers I know drive to some point from which they begin their training... Others tend to train on off peak times such as weekends.

I know of few, if any, group training rides that take place during rush hour... when most commuters are dealing with real traffic.

Here's a challenge... show me one club (use a link) that has scheduled a training ride during rush hour.


good question and at first I thought, "good point" but then I thought about it and I must say in my experience we used to train at two times of day heading out to the western outreaches of the Boston area (Concord/Lexington/Weston). From about 6am-8am in the morning, often mixing in with the car commuters on our way back as they headed into Boston. And later in the afternoon if we could all get out of work early from anywhere from 4pm to 8pm- all of which are commuting hours and our regular training rides never involved packing the bikes on a car.

It's much easier to mix in with traffic at 25 mph + on roads clogged with steady traffic that isn't averaging much better than that anyway.

Below are two regular training rides in my area: (http://www.bostonroadclub.com/rides.asp)

Tuesday Night World Championships (Nahanton Park, Newton): Location: Nahanton Park, Newton (Across From Wells Ave) Ride Leaves: 6:00 PM sharp

Wednesday Night CRW Masters Ride (Charles River Wheelman Ride) Time: 6:00 PM Sharp!

A 6pm start in the Boston area is still in the prime commuting time period.

good question and at first I thought, "good point" but then I thought about it and I must say in my experience we used to train at two times of day heading out to the western outreaches of the Boston area (Concord/Lexington/Weston). From about 6am-8am in the morning, often mixing in with the car commuters on our way back as they headed into Boston. And later in the afternoon if we could all get out of work early from anywhere from 4pm to 8pm- all of which are commuting hours and our regular training rides never involved packing the bikes on a car.

It's much easier to mix in with traffic at 25 mph + on roads clogged with steady traffic that isn't averaging much better than that anyway.

Below are two regular training rides in my area: (http://www.bostonroadclub.com/rides.asp)





A 6pm start in the Boston area is still in the prime commuting time period.

Fair enough. The racers I know locally do not ride during commute hours... and in fact don't bike commute.

Obviously things are not the same all over.

Here's a challenge... show me one club (use a link) that has scheduled a training ride during rush hour.

The Potomac Pedalers have a Downtown Breakaway ride during rush hour every Tuesday when daylight prevails.

http://www.bikepptc.org/Jul07Rides#Tuesdays

Of course, the club is huge: I recall something like 4000 paying members.

Well, "wrong" as defined by some anonymous "experts" I've never heard of, anyway. Meanwhile, the overwhelming majority of experienced cyclists, many of whom have been riding and racing for decades, continue to ride in essentially the manner described by 1Easyrider, regardless of what the self-annointed "experts" might have to say on the matter. Hmm...

On this site Six Jours, we're all "anonynmous" experts. That you've never heard of them, by the way, in no way demolishes their arguments.

There's nothing wrong with riding as close to the kerb as practicable as 1Easyrider was taught, but where he goes wrong is, apparently, to assume that this distance doesn't change and write jeeringly about the OP's problem. Assuming that OP's description of his riding is accurate, then he was pulled over on a non-existent charge of not riding on a non-existent cycle lane (actually a RTOL).

Where the lane is so narrow that overtaking in the same lane poses a risk, then taking the lane is an option which, according to the quotations of various state law I've seen on this forum, is perfectly allowable and is actually stated as the correct option - it is certainly acceptable within UK law. Unless, of course, riding a couple of feet from the kerb and not holding other vehicles up on a narrow lane is perfectly safe, given the high standards displayed by US drivers?

Are you telling me that you and fellow riders have never held up following motor vehicles for brief periods for your own safety? I don't know how common narrow streets are in the US, but there are certainly plenty in our, often, 18thC/19thC town and city road layouts which make that a necessity.

One of the benefits of your years of experience, SJ, is that you know how, and when, to respond flexibly and safely using variation of the general, simple, principals of cyclecraft/VC/streetsmarts or whatever you care to call it.

Me, I'll ride at 2'/3'/5'/6' from the kerb if I believe that not to do so will lead to a level of risk I think is unacceptable. The extremely infrequent occasions I've actually been put at risk make me think I've been doing something right - and that, by the way, is an observation, not bragging, since I'm sure that my safety has been assured on occasion by the alertness of other road users.

Am I an expert? Expertish perhaps, because I've read, studied and put into practice that and what other stuff I've seen and experienced, just as you have done over the years. And yes, it is simple, just like a reverse double back somersault with full twist - the more you practise the simpler it gets.

How about right in your backyard, like North San Diego?

"On Tuesday and Thursday mornings there is a ride from B & L Bike & Sports that rolls out at 6:00AM. The shop is located at 211 North Highway 101 in Solana Beach. Join the Triathlon Club of San Diego for a ride north on the coast to the Grand Deli in Carlsbad and back. About 30-40 miles with a typical pace of 18-20 MPH. Bring a headlight with you from October to April.

On Wednesday morning, there is the Reynolds Composites Ride. Rolling out at 8:15AM, medium to high intensity, lot of pro/1/2/3 riders. Leaves from their business park location, 1497 Poinsetta Av, in Vista. (Use the first access driveway on the north side of Poinsettia just east of Business Park Dr off El Camino Real). North on Poinsettia and north through Vista to Gopher Canyon Rd, Little Gopher Canyon Rd, Old River Rd, Camino Del Rey, West Lilac Rd, Lilac Rd, and a loop back using Old Castle Rd, Old 395 or other various routes through San Marcos and Vista. Minimum of 50 miles.

Also on Wednesday morning, there is the Leucadia Cyclery Ride. Rolling out at 8:00AM, low to medium intensity. Leaves from their shop at 823 N Vulcan Ave, Encinitas. Plan on 50 to 60 miles, no stops. Decision is made on Monday morning for the route. Call (760) 436-2786 for more details."

Even more here:

http://www.cyclo-vets.org/training_rides.htm

Hey I said "fair enough." Apparently I know the wrong racers. The folks I know do a noon ride, or do remote rides which they drive to.

Here's a challenge... show me one club (use a link) that has scheduled a training ride during rush hour.

The Spin Cycle bike shop has weekly rides (for a range of road cyclists) that start at 6:00 PM and include use of a major 4-lane thoroughfare with 11' lanes at the start:

http://www.thespincycle.com/events.asp?level1=weekly_store_rides

A surprising number of my motorist co-workers (I work near this road) have complained to me about this ride, despite the fact that the cyclists use only one lane and leave the other lane for passing. Given the density of the cycling pack, I believe the cyclists create significantly more net impact on traffic capacity when they drive their individual cars to the bike shop where the ride starts than when they leave on bikes.

I pass this group ride frequently while riding my bike home from work in the opposite direction on the same thoroughfare.

So on the basis of 1Easyrider's cycling and your experience you still feel qualified to say:

Don't you think that's quite a narrow sample, Six jours ?

Give it a rest, that's not what he said. Once a clever dick, always a clever dick. You remind me of my ex-wife. I got rid of her years ago. Thank god you're 6,000 miles or more away!

6days is correct. I've seen a load of quotes on here from so called experts on cycling road safety. What a load of Bo$$ox. Most of this advice is sure to totally pi$$ of all motorists and you wonder why cyclists have a bad name.

DON'T BE ABSURD, KEEP TO THE KERB!

On this site Six Jours, we're all "anonynmous" experts. That you've never heard of them, by the way, in no way demolishes their arguments.
Not me. I'm just some guy who rides a bicycle, and I make no claims to any expertise. That aside, I was fortunate enough to able to train with some pretty high-level racers; people that you would have known, at least if you followed the racing scene 20 years ago. And those folks tended to ride a lot like 1Easyrider has described. So in the "My expert is better than your expert" game, I've got a bunch of men who made a living racing bicycles, and you've some fat guy who used to ride to work and then wrote a book about it. :p

There's nothing wrong with riding as close to the kerb as practicable as 1Easyrider was taught, but where he goes wrong is, apparently, to assume that this distance doesn't change and write jeeringly about the OP's problem. Assuming that OP's description of his riding is accurate, then he was pulled over on a non-existent charge of not riding on a non-existent cycle lane (actually a RTOL).

The trouble, IMO, is with the insane interpretation of "as close as practicable" espoused by many here. In one breath it'll be "Of course, we'll be to the right when it's safe" and in the next it'll be "But it's never safe." In the scenario described by the OP and later illustrated by another poster, top riders would position themselves out of traffic. But the OP and his defenders insist that despite the opinions and actions of top level riders, the police, AND a judge, the only safe way to negotiate that section of road is by blocking traffic. Hmm...

Give it a rest, that's not what he said.

Yes, it is.

Once a clever dick, always a clever dick. You remind me of my ex-wife. I got rid of her years ago. Thank god you're 6,000 miles or more away!

DON'T BE ABSURD, KEEP TO THE KERB!

You have acute reading comprehension problems. If you look under my avatar you will see that I am located considerably closer to you; assuming you reside in Yorkshire.

Oh, and that's a fantastic slogan, 1Easyrider. Perhaps you could compose a jingle to accompany it...

Oh, and that's a fantastic slogan, 1Easyrider. Perhaps you could compose a jingle to accompany it...

DON'T BE ABSURD KEEP TO THE KERB
OR RIDE IN THE MIDDLE AND BE A NERD

I was followed by a San Diego police man (in a police car) for about a 1/2 mile this morning including across a freeway interchange while taking the rightmost through lane (which is left of a lane which eventually, across the interchange, becomes a freeway onramp). I was going 15-25 (depending on the slope) and he was following behind me, while faster traffic passed us on both sides at about 50 mph. He stayed a safe distance back and I wasn't sure whether he was thinking about pulling me over or just giving me cover, or what. He continued following me like that after we crossed the interchange. I was ready to tell him about how I tried the rightmost lane while going over the freeway (the lane that becomes the freeway onramp) as recently as yesterday (every time I try it I regret it, and this time was no exception, because I got a bit "stuck" trying to merge left where the lane is about to diverge, a motorist who was ignoring me apparently got confused when I "suddenly" indicated a desire to merge left), but after about a quarter mile the lane got wide enough to share, I moved aside, and he passed me.

Location (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=La+Jolla+Village+Dr+%26+Villa+La+Jolla+Dr,+La+Jolla,+CA+to+Lebon+Dr+and+La+Jolla+Village+Dr,+92037&sll=32.87178,-117.2339&sspn=0.007308,0.008776&ie=UTF8&t=h&z=16&om=1) (going east):

I was followed by a San Diego police man (in a police car) for about a 1/2 mile this morning including across a freeway interchange while taking the rightmost through lane (which is left of a lane which eventually, across the interchange, becomes a freeway onramp). I was going 15-25 (depending on the slope) and he was following behind me, while faster traffic passed us on both sides at about 50 mph. He stayed a safe distance back and I wasn't sure whether he was thinking about pulling me over or just giving me cover, or what. He continued following me like that after we crossed the interchange. I was ready to tell him about how I tried the rightmost lane while going over the freeway (the lane that becomes the freeway onramp) as recently as yesterday (every time I try it I regret it, and this time was no exception, because I got a bit "stuck" trying to merge left where the lane is about to diverge, a motorist who was ignoring me apparently got confused when I "suddenly" indicated a desire to merge left), but after about a quarter mile the lane got wide enough to share, I moved aside, and he passed me.

Location (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=La+Jolla+Village+Dr+%26+Villa+La+Jolla+Dr,+La+Jolla,+CA+to+Lebon+Dr+and+La+Jolla+Village+Dr,+92037&sll=32.87178,-117.2339&sspn=0.007308,0.008776&ie=UTF8&t=h&z=16&om=1) (going east):I'd love to have a lawn chair and some popcorn while you explain, with logic and reason, VC to the next LEO who follows you. :)

I'd love to have a lawn chair and some popcorn while you explain, with logic and reason, VC to the next LEO who follows you. :)
I thought I would get an opportunity today, but he wouldn't bite.
I think SD police are pretty good about understanding cyclist rights. My last close encounter was when I got honked at by an old geezer who was then promptly pulled over by SD police. I realize that's only a sample of two, but I can't recall any local stories of cyclist mistreatment by police.

I thought I would get an opportunity today, but he wouldn't bite.:lol:

He's been warned! Did you have multi-color charts prepared? Powerpoint?

At least he didn´t get upset.

Or at least he wasn´t described as getting upset

I thought I would get an opportunity today, but he wouldn't bite.
I think SD police are pretty good about understanding cyclist rights. My last close encounter was when I got honked at by an old geezer who was then promptly pulled over by SD police. I realize that's only a sample of two, but I can't recall any local stories of cyclist mistreatment by police.

To be honest, neither can I... I wonder if the bike police and the auto police perhaps chat.

Why not contact the DA BEFORE the actual court date?

Given San Diego's history with cop/bike altercations, perhaps the city spends some time on cycling law, given how they were stung in the past...

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20011208-9999_7m8bike.html

Interesting find... sounded like Wills had a chip on his shoulder though... given his other incident.

Man, a Fireman and a Cop... one would think there might be some "brotherhood" among first responders.

FWIW, I used to work as a paramedic and can tell you that relations between cops and firefighters have often been strained, especially here in CA with the recent budget battles. Cops and firefighters are both of the opinion that one is taking money out of the other's budget.

There's also the fact that the two groups tend to have differing viewpoints about what constitutes "helping" the public.

In case it wasn't apparent, I'm pretty biased, but it still seems to me, efter reading the story, that the cyclist/firefighter was primarily guilty of "contempt of cop". That'll get you beaten and arrested every time, in sunny SoCal.

JoeJack, be sure to point out to your lawyers this site:

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/5496.0.html