Advocacy & Safety - I love traffic circles.

I've been trying out alternate routes around my neighborhood, looking for the least traveled streets, and the streets with traffic circles are definitely the motherlode!

Some neighborhoods in my area in an effort to calm traffic, have been installing traffic circles at every intersection along some residential routes that commutters were using as shortcuts between main thoroughfares. Boy, do they work! Cars hate them and avoid the routes like the plague.

On a bike, they are great. They parrallel very busy, dangerous streets for miles. No stop signs! And most are on narrow two lane streets which make it pretty hard to get around in a car, but its easy to fly around them on a bike.

Alright, I know its not that big a deal, but here in Miami, rode rage capital of the US two years in a row, little things like this give me hope.

what street is it that has those ?

Alright, I know its not that big a deal, but here in Miami, rode rage capital of the US two years in a row, little things like this give me hope.

I wish the same could be said for New Jersey circles. They might work well in the residential settings you describe, but when applied to major roadway intersections, they seem to be a recipe for disaster. Due to the many accidents occur that within them here they are slowly being removed and replaced by light controlled intersections.

what street is it that has those ?

They are all over the place in Coral Gables.

It all depends on the design speed and number of lanes. A tight-radius 15mph traffic circle with 3 or 4 two-lane arms is generally good for cycling, but a high-speed multilaner is a deathtrap.

Yeah, traffic circles with no traffic lights are great for two lane roads. In philadelphia we have a couple trafficlight-regulated traffic circles. They're not all that convenient.

Yeah, traffic circles with no traffic lights are great for two lane roads. In philadelphia we have a couple trafficlight-regulated traffic circles. They're not all that convenient.

Yep. That Art Museum Circle is almost as bad as the NJ Circles that I experienced driving to the Shore. Certainly no fun for cyclists.

Yeah, traffic circles with no traffic lights are great for two lane roads. In philadelphia we have a couple trafficlight-regulated traffic circles. They're not all that convenient.

I imagine I'm being naive here, but don't traffic lights utterly defeat the purpose of the traffic circle?

There are a number of those in DC, but some can actually be quite dangerous. The smaller ones aren't bad though. The problem most often is that potholes can lurk at the edges of the circles.

They are all over Europe. I think in the US, drivers need each intersections to be controlled--- there is too much thinking (apparently) for US drivers to realize they need to yield to people already in the circle.


I wish the same could be said for New Jersey circles. They might work well in the residential settings you describe, but when applied to major roadway intersections, they seem to be a recipe for disaster. Due to the many accidents occur that within them here they are slowly being removed and replaced by light controlled intersections.

They have installed some roundabouts here in Kitchener-Waterloo over the past two or three years. The chief difficulty seems to be that people in this province haven't the foggiest idea how to merge safely and no one wants to leave room for the other guy. As far as cycling is concerned they aren't too bad as long as people don't try to squeeze by you when you're charging through it at 35 km/h on the bike.

Breckenridge has a newish 2-lane circle/roundabout at the north end of town and a traffic light controlled 3 way intersection at the south end of town. Traffic seems to flow a lot better through the circle than through the traffic lights, even if the occasional tourist gets a little confused by the circle. And yes, the circle is very manageable on a bicycle, it's a small enough radius to keep motor vehicle speeds down.

US drivers

yield
Non sequitur? :D

Although I do love the traffic roundy rounds on a bike, especially taking a few laps at increasing rates of lean and speed until the cars can't keep up, they're a pedestrian brick wall if there's a lot of traffic. They eliminate access and mobility for those not fortunate enough to be able to drive or bicycle; can't say I like that much.

Oh boy, my first ever roundapoint was Place de la Concorde in Paris, multiple lanes and multiple streets and multiple cars. My hosts had mentioned it was quite the landmark and I'd seen movies where characters joked about going around several times before being able to get out!!!

So when I got to it, I stopped and observed for a few minutes, looked at my map again to be sure I knew which lane to exit on, and entered the fray, woooooo! The traffic wasn't as nasty as I thought and although my 5th street exit was easy enough, I decided to sink deeper into the circle and went around with traffic three times, just for the heck of it! Then switched slowly to outer lane to exit. What a baptism.

In Fort Lauderdale, they've just begun putting in roundabouts in certain neighborhoods. Oddly enough my problem is more often vehicles slowing too much rather than not yielding to me. "Merge" ability is definitely low in all of North America. I find many roundabouts in Canada actually experience people coming to a near stop before entering. Canadian motorists are a very polarized bunch, either complete brown nosing law obsessed fear mongering "stop for everything" motorists or back woods pickup driving distracted weaving incompetents. Canadian DOTs have become obsessed with pedestrian crossing rights (although motorists are allowed to turn on reds which is the worst situation anyway) and so motorists here spend so much time stopped and pedestrians are so bloody arrogant as to not even look before crossing!!!!! All this idling of engines is so bad for the environment not to mention all these useless stops/starts are real fuel munchers. I like the direction Switzerland took, switch off engine at red lights and trains.

Alright, I know its not that big a deal, but here in Miami, rode rage capital of the US two years in a row, little things like this give me hope.


wow...I didnt know you were Miami, San Rensho :eek:
Im still getting used to Waste Palm. I dont know if my
skills are up to Slaughterdale or Die-ami yet !! :eek:
I guess the circles are good then....In Jersey you will
die a fiery, flaming death by venturing into them.
I have trouble with them because the signage is confusing....
Since there is no standard sign / symbols stuff can get sort of
confusing trying to figure them out on the fly.

Be safe !

I wish the same could be said for New Jersey circles....

When I moved to NJ and applied for a driver license here, I had to learn NJ traffic rules to pass the written part of the test... and boy, what a mess! The law about traffic circles is particularly baffling; it states that right of way in a traffic circles depends on the local traditions of that particular circle, or something like that. Unreal.

They are all over Europe. I think in the US, drivers need each intersections to be controlled--- there is too much thinking (apparently) for US drivers to realize they need to yield to people already in the circle.

Yes, I don't know how we poor Americans get by without our European betters to think for us. *rolls eyes*

Lots of circles in DC. I just deal with them, or avoid the worst ones.

wow...I didnt know you were Miami, San Rensho :eek:
Im still getting used to Waste Palm. I dont know if my
skills are up to Slaughterdale or Die-ami yet !! :eek:
I guess the circles are good then....In Jersey you will
die a fiery, flaming death by venturing into them.
I have trouble with them because the signage is confusing....
Since there is no standard sign / symbols stuff can get sort of
confusing trying to figure them out on the fly.

Be safe !

I haven't biked in Waste Palm (I like that) but I have noticed that as soon as you pass the Broward county line into Palm Beach county, people actually drive half civilised! On the freeway, you don't have the self proclaimed keepers of the speed limit driving 54 MPH in the left hand lane. If you signal to change lanes, people actually let you in, as opposed to Dade county where signalling will gaurantee that the car in back of you speeds up and gets nect to you so you can't change lanes.

But be careful biking in So Fla.

The city here has been putting in many small roundabouts. Lots of drivers complain endlessly about them. I like them a lot, both driving and biking through them.

I have to disagree with traffic circles, particularly on residential streets. Note - my experience of traffic circles as a cyclist are in Calgary and Vancouver (residential streets, mostly), and as a driver Calgary, as a passenger of a motor vehicle - all over, particularly in the UK

Unlike the OP, I found that they are very nice for driving (no stops), and would choose to drive the quiet residential route with traffic circles over the busy commercial street with lights (13th ave NW - I think vs. 16th ave NW in Calgary). While the top speed as a driver was a lot slower (between 30-40 kph) on the residential street, compared to 50-60 kph on the main steet, there was no need to stop and one could coast constantly, rather than hitting gas/brake, and waiting multiple light cycles. Much more efficient on the gas, and much nicer on the stress levels.

As a cyclist, there were a lot of problems. It was difficult to determine the destination of cars in the small circles, they never really slowed down to enter them, and it was impossible to tell if cars saw cyclists or pedestrians. My wife was hit in a traffic circle in Vancouver where the motorist just plowed into my wife, because she did not see her (she was pretty much in the centre of the lane of the traffic circle and got clipped by the front left corner of the car - no injury or even fall, thank goodness).

I would definitely advocate for speed bumps at intersections over traffic circles - it's easier to tell where the cars are going, there are fewer yield/merge issues and they HAVE to slow to a safe speed (10-25 kph) to get through the intersection, no need for police intervention at all (unlike stop signs that are inefficient and require supervision to work).

That being said, I'm glad you found a nice route for you in your city, I just would oppose putting more traffic circles in mine (I think there are a few in Toronto, but I don't pass by them frequently, as I usually take main roads.)

Im still getting used to Waste Palm. I dont know if my skills are up to Slaughterdale or Die-ami yet !! :eek:

Ah, that's so cute, usually we say Snort Liquordale! Well I've not ever cycled to or in West Palm, but I've driven there lots, for work or for Comedy Club at City Place. Mostly I'm on I95, and it's mostly under construction, absolutely bloody annoying to drive in three 9 foot lanes. Somehow it seems that all that construction isn't even to improve the road infrastructure, and it's been like that for years now! But, thinking of it, I've yet to see any cyclists at all in West Palm, ever!!!:eek:


I guess the circles are good then....In Jersey you will die a fiery, flaming death by venturing into them. I have trouble with them because the signage is confusing.... Since there is no standard sign / symbols stuff can get sort of confusing trying to figure them out on the fly.

I've found that left lane guarding is common everywhere in South East Florida. I use to play a little game with them when returning from Miami on I95. I only did this to one moron a day, as otherwise it could have become an addictive game: after waiting eons behind a left lane grandpa, I'd eventually find a way to move right and eventually get in front of him (almost always him, I think ladies stay away from the left lane...odd...) And then slowly but surely, without ever using the brakes, I would gradually decrease my speed and amuse myself watching the rearview mirror as they slowed and slowed and slowed as well. It really took them forever to realize that I was slowing purposefully then they'd eventually go right and speed up, at which point I wizzed along, saluting them. I think most left lane grandpas don't even realize they're doing it, they're just distracted. My actions may jerk them into thinking: "Darn slow left laner" and then maybe they won't do it so much themselves...

But back to the circles, I love them best when they're unsigned, it's the beauty of it, it weeds people out:p In Europe they're a "get in get out fast" thing. You need to be aggressive and mindful all at once! I think North Americans are EITHER aggressive or mindful but aren't able to combine the two, hence some of the circle missbehavin!

There is one traffic circle in a residential area near my house. I love it. Except that they are so rare that some people do not know to yield to traffic that is already in the circle, and of course to keep right. Also, Ive heard that the blind people don't like them. I also suspect that old folks aren't that great at deciding who was there first and behaving accordingly.

We have a number of traffic circles down near a dam near the lake. They are so confusing to some people I don't like riding through them unless there is no one there. I've seen too many people driving the cobblestones in the very center (not a lane), riding the outside lane all the way around or u-turning right before the circle (into oncoming traffic).
It was probably intentional to try and slow people down even more but the huge signage and decorations in the circle so you can't see around it don't help bikers be seen since it is a 40mph road, another reason I avoid it with traffic.

It has to be better then the constant ever single block stop signs I have to pass through.

Ah, that's so cute, usually we say Snort Liquordale! Well I've not ever cycled to or in West Palm, but I've driven there lots, for work or for Comedy Club at City Place. Mostly I'm on I95, and it's mostly under construction, absolutely bloody annoying to drive in three 9 foot lanes. Somehow it seems that all that construction isn't even to improve the road infrastructure, and it's been like that for years now! But, thinking of it, I've yet to see any cyclists at all in West Palm, ever!!!:eek:




I've found that left lane guarding is common everywhere in South East Florida. I use to play a little game with them when returning from Miami on I95. I only did this to one moron a day, as otherwise it could have become an addictive game: after waiting eons behind a left lane grandpa, I'd eventually find a way to move right and eventually get in front of him (almost always him, I think ladies stay away from the left lane...odd...) And then slowly but surely, without ever using the brakes, I would gradually decrease my speed and amuse myself watching the rearview mirror as they slowed and slowed and slowed as well. It really took them forever to realize that I was slowing purposefully then they'd eventually go right and speed up, at which point I wizzed along, saluting them. I think most left lane grandpas don't even realize they're doing it, they're just distracted. My actions may jerk them into thinking: "Darn slow left laner" and then maybe they won't do it so much themselves...

But back to the circles, I love them best when they're unsigned, it's the beauty of it, it weeds people out:p In Europe they're a "get in get out fast" thing. You need to be aggressive and mindful all at once! I think North Americans are EITHER aggressive or mindful but aren't able to combine the two, hence some of the circle missbehavin!

Thats funny.

In Miami, its usually not the blue hairs blocking the left. In most cases its a Hummer or other gargantuan, expensive SUV. Miami is all about showing off and privilege and everyone percieves the left lane of the freeway the "prestige" or exclusive lane and thats why they gravitate towards it. "I'm entitled to the left hand lane because I have the biggest, most obnoxious, expensive car!"

It doesn't even phase me anymore. I just go in the right most lane, where there is rarely any traffic and easily go 85 mph when the left lane is maybe going 60.

I like one-lane mini-roundabouts, particularly when they replace a stop-signed or signalized intersection.

I dislike multi-lane roundabouts where speeds can grow and lane changes inside the roundabout are required.

When I grew up, "traffic circle" meant a huge rotary where speeds could easily exceed 40 mph.

Thats funny.

In Miami, its usually not the blue hairs blocking the left. In most cases its a Hummer or other gargantuan, expensive SUV. Miami is all about showing off and privilege and everyone percieves the left lane of the freeway the "prestige" or exclusive lane and thats why they gravitate towards it. "I'm entitled to the left hand lane because I have the biggest, most obnoxious, expensive car!"

It doesn't even phase me anymore. I just go in the right most lane, where there is rarely any traffic and easily go 85 mph when the left lane is maybe going 60.

Oh you're absolutely right! I only use the term grandpa as a metaphor cause when I was growing up in Eastern Quebec, it was usually the grandpas doing it!

I had a 2 month job in Miami, Deering Yacht club, that required me to commute Fort Lauderdale Miami, usually 1 hour after each rush hour. I found that indeed I drove 85 mph as much on the right lanes as on the left lanes. My most common left lane car was the brown or green canvastop convertibles!:lol:

I've never cycled those monster circles in Hollywood, they're as big as Place de la Concorde, but reduced lanes and exits makes for faster speeds, have you cycled them?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Beach_Traffic_Circle

This thing scares me. :(

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Beach_Traffic_Circle

This thing scares me. :(

Yep, looks like the Hollywood, FL, ones but with more exits. The problem with these circles is there too expansive, European roundabouts in my limited tourist experience are more compact, force motorists to negotiate tighter turns, making everything a little more arduous, and a little safer I think.

When I lived in Minneapolis, we had ONE roundabout on a very popular bike route. I cannot tell you how many times I have seen people try to take a left by driving against traffic in it. Also, they must have had a dozen yield signs to explain the right of way, but as often as not, drivers would stop in the roundabout to let other drivers in. Finally, this has nothing to do with Europeans thinking for Americans--- it appears your comprehension needs a bit of work.


Yes, I don't know how we poor Americans get by without our European betters to think for us. *rolls eyes*

What is so difficult about traversing a traffic circle? Yield to the cars in the circle, and always use a turn signal to let other know which exit you will be taking. Traffic circles are often more efficient that signaled intersections, and many traffic engineers in the US agree with this, however, they are not widely used because of the publics fear of them. Of course we must fear what we are unfamiliar with.

Personally i like traffic circles, and most that are multi-lane are connected to major arterials, roads that i usually wouldn't take by bike anyway.
I have noticed a couple of them around here, but they are very poorly signed (they have stop signs instead of yield signs), and more often than not people just don't know what to do. Again, this is the fault of the signs put up leading to them, and the motorists inability to take a few moments to use their brain to figure out how it works.

Whoever designed the local MUP with a ridiculously tiny traffic circle must've thought they were clever, but in practice it's a disaster. Most people go the direct, aka "wrong," way around the circle, and lots of people just go right through the center.

Love'em.

Be riding'em again daily in Frogland starting Thursday avo.

... Personally i like traffic circles, and most that are multi-lane are connected to major arterials, roads that i usually wouldn't take by bike anyway. ...

Where I live (north coastal San Diego County), one generally cannot get from Point A to Point B without using one or more major arterials for a significant percentage of the trip.

Again, tight-radius one-lane circles with a design speed of 15mph/25kph are great in my book, but I strongly oppose multilaners as a bicyclist and even more fervently as a pedestrian or jogger.

... The problem most often is that potholes can lurk at the edges of the circles.

haven't you been reading this forum? why would you be at the edge? TAKE THE LANE!!

;)

haven't you been reading this forum? why would you be at the edge? TAKE THE LANE!!

;)

That's sort of the irony- the one time I took the lane in this circle I hit the pothole- by edge I also mean right in the center of the lane where the circle exits to a road. In this case it was in the center of the lane at about midnight when no one was on the road. There was in there was a moon caliber crater where Mass Ave. entered Westmoreland circle, right in the center of the lane in the shadows; I never saw it coming since my lamp burned out earlier in the ride. It did a number on my front fork, but I managed to correct it later. They finally re-paved that section this past year and got rid of the hole. That thing was a monster. But to the credit of the Westrick rim- the wheel was still arrow true after hitting the hole- the fork actually took more damage than the wheel. After that I memorized where that hole was; I never hit it again.

Ironically as well I'm not really a take the lane kind of rider. I'm pretty slow and steady so I stay right. Despite that I end up taking at least part of the lane often- I feel compelled to take the lane in many scenarios because the shoulder always seems full of damned debris, especially on River Road here in Bethesda. I find glass, rocks, plastic, garbage, etc whenever I ride so I creep out into the lane some so I don't have to ride over that junk. If the cars are in such a hurry they can change into the left lane (it's a larger road) and pass me comfortably on the left in a full lane like sane vehicles should. I admit feeling a bit foolish when drivers honk and yell at me, but I'd feel even more foolish if I just rode through the crap that piles up outside the fogstripe.

That said, the DC circles are in another league from the old Goshen rotary in Litchfield County where I grew up.

+++++1

... That said, the DC circles are in another league from the old Goshen rotary in Litchfield County where I grew up.

i was just joking with you about taking the lane. true, the DC circles are special. i've just been in cars there. at least in my limited experience, the speeds in DC circles were slow, which i'd think would make it safer for you as a cyclist.

i was just joking with you about taking the lane.


Oh I know- taking the lane in some of these things means imminent death

It's actually hard even for cars to take the lane in some of these circles because the lanes don't actually make sense. There are circles with one center lane that actually never allows you to leave the circle. If you were to be in that lane you would just go around and around. When cars get into it they normally just cut across 2-3 lanes of traffic without looking to escape the circle. Drivers often randomly and rapdly shift lanes without a look because they realize they're getting close to their exit. If you were in a lane when that happened you'd just get bowled over. I've actually seen cars side swipe eachother because one tried to escape the center right into another car.

When I moved to NJ and applied for a driver license here, I had to learn NJ traffic rules to pass the written part of the test... and boy, what a mess! The law about traffic circles is particularly baffling; it states that right of way in a traffic circles depends on the local traditions of that particular circle, or something like that. Unreal.

down here in south jersey, they have started to change that by using stop signs at each intersection...
they tried to use yield signs but people ignored them... they treat the stop signs as yield signs now that I think of it...

DC traffic circles suck. Really, they do. They have so many lights because pedestrians are the Chosen People in this town, and every traffic light on a DC circle is there to allow pedestrians to walk across all 3.5 lanes.

(I can rant about DC pedestrians, but that'll go off topic)


As a cyclist, there were a lot of problems. It was difficult to determine the destination of cars in the small circles, they never really slowed down to enter them, and it was impossible to tell if cars saw cyclists or pedestrians. My wife was hit in a traffic circle in Vancouver where the motorist just plowed into my wife, because she did not see her (she was pretty much in the centre of the lane of the traffic circle and got clipped by the front left corner of the car - no injury or even fall, thank goodness).

If that involved the kind of movement I'm thinking of, I can imagine that the driver's view was blocked by her A-pillar. I've had a few close calls when I couldn't see somebody for the same reason.

As long as drivers think that they need to tap the brakes to change lanes, they're going to mess up in traffic circles. They need to be TAUGHT how to use them. Speaking of which -- when was the last time anyone in the US was trained in driving traffic circles & roundabouts? I know that I wasn't.

I was sold on the idea when I first visited England. There was a small roundabout -- small enough that it had no island -- for an intersection of at least three two-lane roads. It was busy, maybe a hundred cars per minute, but I never saw a car for more than a few seconds. They were in and out with barely any fuss. If there were stop signs, or even a traffic light, it would have been much worse.

In my hometown, they converted a multi-way intersection into a "peanut". Check it out:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Omaha,+NE&ie=UTF8&ll=41.274283,-95.990376&spn=0.00127,0.002484&t=h&z=19&om=1

They used to have multiple stop signs and a triangular island in the right-middle. The thing was, not every street had as many stop signs -- Happy Hollow Blvd, going east to west, had a stop sign at 50th and another one at Country Club Ave. Saddle Creek, approaching from the SE, only had a stop sign at 50th, then continued through without stopping. It was confusing to us longtime residents, enough that my parents made sure to teach & quiz me before letting me try driving it. As the city gained new residents, navigating these multi-way intersections became a lost art, and the accident rate started going up.

The city wanted to put in a circular-shaped circle, but the plan would have wiped out several houses and businesses. They somehow came up with this peanut shape, which actually works really well. It's well-signed, drivers have no way to turn except counterclockwise, curbs that keep drivers in line are also rounded to avoid severely damaging wayward cars (along with a healthy inside berm, just in case), and the peanut shape (along with some rather fun elevation changes) inherently keeps speeds down. It's safer and flows better than the earlier intersection(s) ever did.

My experience with a small turning circle on my loop is that half the drivers don't know what to do in relation to other cars, let alone bicycles. It makes for a very dangerous situation, even if you as the cyclist do everything perfectly. Turning circles would be great otherwise, ie. if everyone understood what to do, but too many drivers just have no clue what the heck they are doing there.

I have to disagree with traffic circles, particularly on residential streets. Note - my experience of traffic circles as a cyclist are in Calgary and Vancouver (residential streets, mostly), and as a driver Calgary...<snip>
I would definitely advocate for speed bumps at intersections over traffic circles - it's easier to tell where the cars are going, there are fewer yield/merge issues and they HAVE to slow to a safe speed (10-25 kph) to get through the intersection, no need for police intervention at all (unlike stop signs that are inefficient and require supervision to work).

which traffic circles in calgary were bad? the only ones that leap to mind for me are the super small ones in mnt royal and i, personally, love them. no more stop signs, easy to navigate and certainly less threatening than a four-way that joe-average driver is going to cruise through anyway.

now the speed cushions... i hate those things. especially as a pedestrian. when there's no speed bumps i can easily gauge whether i have enough time to cross the street before an on-coming car gets to where i am. the speed bumps play total havoc with that. is the motorist going to slow down or just ramp over them? if s/he slows down, by how much? drives me crazy!