Any way you can post the actual article? You have to be a member to view. :(

Hasn't this topic about been run into the ground? Sorry if I'm grumpy but there's a lot of current events to talk about. The Championship of Zurich is this weekend. Tour of Spain coming up soon. Or after the TDF is it just Don D and me?

No big deal. I'm used to it.

Stopping for Spill Draws the Second-Guessers to Ullrich
By EDWARD WYATT

one of the other runners waited when Mary Decker fell after colliding with Zola Budd in the final of the 3,000-meter race at the 1984 Olympics. Nor did rival jockeys slow the pace after War Emblem stumbled out of the gate at the 2002 Belmont Stakes, ruining his chance to win the Triple Crown.

But when Lance Armstrong caught his handlebars on a fan's tote bag and crashed to the pavement last month during the 15th stage of the Tour de France — a crucial climb to the Pyrenees ski village of Luz-Ardiden — Armstrong's rivals slowed down and waited for him to recover, forsaking the chance to leave him behind.

At the time, race fans heard much about cycling's first unwritten rule: Thou shalt not ride away from the race leader when he is on the ground, stopping to relieve himself, or at other unsporting moments. Commentators agreed after the race that all of Armstrong's closest rivals appeared to heed the rule, including Jan Ullrich, who at the time trailed Armstrong in the overall standing by a mere 15 seconds.

But by doing so, Ullrich and the others not only allowed Armstrong to catch up. They also gave him a chance to win the stage — and arguably the Tour itself, both of which he did. Ullrich finished second, for the fifth time over all and the third time to Armstrong.

The incident has sparked a still-growing debate among cycling fans about whether Ullrich and the others should have, or did, wait for Armstrong. At the time, Armstrong graciously acknowledged Ullrich's gesture, noting that two years ago, he had waited when Ullrich crashed on the descent of the Col de Peyresourde, another storied Pyrenees peak.

But after the race, Armstrong released a bombshell, one that so far has received little notice.

"I watched the footage, and I'm not so convinced that Jan Ullrich was waiting," Armstrong said in a post-Tour interview with Outdoor Life Network, the cable television network that showed the Tour. "I think everybody said that and that was the feel-good story, but I'm not so sure he was waiting."

In the OLN interview, which will be re-broadcast later this month and in September, Armstrong maintained that it was only after Tyler Hamilton rode to the front of the group and told the other riders to slow down that they waited. Hamilton, Armstrong's former teammate on the United States Postal Service squad, is the leader of the rival CSC team.

"If you look at the minute before that, or the half minute, I saw Ullrich on the front — in his normal position, with his normal face, going," Armstrong said. "That's what I saw," he added, shrugging.

Ullrich has been largely mum since the incident, but shortly after, he told The Los Angeles Times: "Of course I would wait. If I would have won this race by taking advantage of someone's bad luck, then the race was not worth winning."

Some former racers, however, believe Ullrich would have been well within his rights to ride away and try to take the yellow jersey off Armstrong's back, particularly on the Tour's last mountaintop finish and with no more than a handful of seconds separating the two.

"I believe he gave away the Tour de France right there," said John Eustice, a former United States pro cycling champion who works as a television commentator and whose company, Sparta Cycling, organizes professional races.

Eustice said that Ullrich, by waiting for Armstrong, lost his rhythm, a fatal error for a rider who is far more dependent on maintaining an even pace than is Armstrong, who prefers zippy accelerations and who can quickly recover.

"It was a great, chivalrous move on Ullrich's part, but I think it was over the top," he said. "He was within his right to continue racing. If I were his race director, I would have killed him."

Eustice's opinion is not universally shared. David M. Chauner, a former Olympic cyclist and president of Threshold Sports, the organizer of the New York City Cycling Championship and other races, said opinion would probably be split among racers on what Ullrich should have done.

"In a certain sense, it would be a hollow victory if you win because another guy has an accident," Chauner said. "But it's a sentiment not necessarily shared by everyone in the race." Frequently, he said, when a competitor gets up from a crash, he is so pumped that he is stronger than he was before the accident, something that rivals must factor in.

Armstrong said after the stage that his post-crash attack was fueled by adrenaline. It caught Ullrich off guard and allowed Armstrong to open a 40-second gap. Once Ullrich recovered his rhythm, he was able to match Armstrong's pace, but not to close the gap.

Paul Sherwen, the former racer who provides commentary for OLN's race broadcasts, said he wondered how Ullrich was feeling at the time. Immediately before the crash, Armstrong was attacking. "Ullrich might have been thinking about getting a breather," Sherwen said, who added that he believes Ullrich did wait and had a responsibility to do so.

Phil Liggett, also an OLN race commentator who along with Sherwen conducted the post-Tour interview with Armstrong, disagreed, saying he believes that Ullrich did not wait, at least until Hamilton rode to the front and slowed the group. Asked what he would have said to Ullrich had he been the Bianchi team's race director, Liggett said, "My reflex action would have been to say to race."

It is a tough decision, one that has to be made within seconds and depends on a multitude of variables. In the 1998 Tour de France, Ullrich was leading the race when he suffered a flat tire shortly before the final climb of the 11th stage. Marco Pantani waited for Ullrich to rejoin the group before he attacked, winning the stage. Pantani went on to win the Tour.

This year, a few days before Armstrong's crash, Joseba Beloki, who finished second to Armstrong in last year's Tour, fell during a descent of the Cote de la Rochette. The fall happened directly in front of Armstrong, who had to ride off the road and across a field to avoid going down himself. No one waited — for good reason, as it turned out. Beloki broke his femur and was out of the race.

"It's something you can't have rules for," Sherwen said. "I think it's a gut feeling, and a decision that has to be made on the ground."

And one that will be debated for years to come.

Originally posted by Laggard
Hasn't this topic about been run into the ground? Sorry if I'm grumpy but there's a lot of current events to talk about. The Championship of Zurich is this weekend. Tour of Spain coming up soon. Or after the TDF is it just Don D and me?

No big deal. I'm used to it.

You may think it has "been run into the ground," but others may be interested. While I agree that it's pretty old news considering what is up and coming in the season this article is still a worthy read. If you're not interested then go start a Vuelta thread and ignore this one.

I did read and enjoy the article. I'm hesitant to start a Vuelta thread simply because I don't anticipate any participation. I'm just dissapointed to find that the majority of racing "fans" are only interested in the TDF.

Once again, sorry if I stepped on any toes.

Originally posted by Laggard
I did read and enjoy the article. I'm hesitant to start a Vuelta thread simply because I don't anticipate any participation. I'm just dissapointed to find that the majority of racing "fans" are only interested in the TDF.

Sorry.

No reason to be sorry ... and rest assured I am following and will participate in Vuelta, Zurich, Worlds, etc threads.

As will I.

I just hope the hammer heads that come on the road racing threads will learn to accept that bicycle racing is not so important that they have to flame out every time someone says something they don't agree with. It takes the fun out of following the sport.:beer:

Hmmm... I think we can really eek this out for at least 4 or 5 more pages....

;)

If Ullrich didn't slow up, then how did Tyler catch to the front to tell everyone to slow down, so easily? I thought Ullrich threw tyler off the back before Lance's fall. :confused:

Ullrich has no responsibility to anyone to wait. He didn't lead any huge attacks nor did he get off his bike and wait around for Armstrong to get his ass off the ground so he didn't do anything wrong. In that moment Ullrich had to consider a load of options and how each would pan out and look in the end, this while he was already exhausted ... the fact that Hamilton rode up and yelled at everyone to slow down may have been the final thing to make Ullrich not go, or he may not have had it in him to go. Either way he stayed with the group and didn't lead an attack.

I'm hesitant to start a Vuelta thread simply because I don't anticipate any participation.

If I can get OLN turned back on (switched from DirecTV to cable) I'll be in those threads! :D TdF is my fave, but any road bike race rules my days off! :)



As for Ulrich, I think the big thing is that Lance might be fending off the "you only won because Ulrich slowed down." If Lance is correct, he won the Tour with no doubts. Nevertheless, if Ulrich DID slow down, lance still would have won. JU was hurting and could not have beat LAnce to the top. Also, I think he still would have fallen on 19...

PS I'm just throwing my $.02 in because this is an interesting topic. As far as I'm concerned, Lance is the MAN and Ulrich ain't half bad either :D

Stoneham-

You couldn't be more right. Jan could not have won either way. That's not to knock Jan, he just couldn't do it either way if you break it down. Lance was not on the ground that long and was planning an attack on the final climb anyway. Lance was strong and would have dropped anyone that day.

Crashing is an extreme motivator ... you cannot make such an assumption as to say Jan could not have won. Armstrong and Ullrich have completely different riding styles and that is largely what impacted the reaction to Armstrong's attack.

I think one *can* reasonably suggest that Jan was out of 1st place when Lance started attacking that day. Jan was hurting and Lance was back to his old form. The fall may have had an impact that helped Lance, but had he not fallen, he still would have beat Ulrich. Interestingly enough, I think Ulrich's loss should be blamed on his team. Armstrong also said that not one of Ulrich's teammates radioed back to him on Stage 19 to tell him about the conditions, eventhough a few fell at the same place Jan did... Everything I heard during the Tour made me think Ulrich's team cost him the race more than anything else...

Thank-you CarlJStoneham!
I agree totally, Ulrich was fading up that hill and Lance was starting to take some time out of him. While Ulrich was probably not going to crack on the hill, Lance was going to make up time on him that day; you could see it in there faces. I totally believe that because Lance fell he got pissed and when you get him mad his inner champion shows up. His fall is what won the race for him.
And yes Ulrich's team totally screwed him by not informing him about the corner, but in the rain he had nearly no chance up making up the time he needed fall or no fall it wasn't going to happen so long and Lance stayed on his bike.

I don't really think a rider of Ulrich's experience should need informing that a corner that tight is going to be slippery when the rain was so heavy. It is common sense - those French roads seem slick even when dry. But I don't think you can blame the DS.

Can you tell me that Lance would have taken the corner as slowly as he did if Ulrich hadn't fallen. The result could have been turned on its head.

The simple facts are they were in the final TT which would decide the greatest cycle race in the world. Ulrich had to push and take risks to make up the time deficit. Maybe 7 times out of 10 he would have been OK and gone on to win. How slow would have been safe in those conditions?

Sure you can blame it on the team. These guys push the envelope on TT's and it's the team manager's *job* to inform them of certain situations. Of course, the rider is ultimately responsible for how they ride, but the manager gets paid to make sure the riders know what to do when. "Slow down", "attack", "heels down". The riders get in a zone and rely on their manager to handle the more technical aspects.

As for the corner, Ulrich has probably taken corners like that before and not fallen. The smallest difference in conditions can be the difference between a fall and successful corner. Not even the best cyclist can make the right call 100% of the time. When you have teammates who fall and don't let you know you assume you can plow through the corners. Hincapie got off his bike and called Lance first thing to let him know the conditions. Lance would not have fallen because he knew about that corner. Ulrich didn't (from what Armstrong says).

Carl, I wasn't suggesting it is solely up to the rider. Yes the manager is paid to motivate, inform etc but in those conditions blasting round a corner at that speed is asking for a crash whether a team mate falls or not. Maybe Ulrich knowingly took the gamble as he had such a deficit to make up in what was effectively the last stage.

The problem is that Ullrich didn't know the specific conditions of the course. Compare JU and Bianchi to Lance and USPS and you see HUGE differences there.

Lance get's his ass out of the hotel and drives the course THAT morning - JU does not, he watches a video.

Lance's team calls him when they finish and no doubt feed just TONS of course information over the radio to the director - Bianchi evidently didn't do all of that.

Bianchi team director decides to REALLY screw up his rider by driving the support car 5ft from his back wheel, trying to make him go faster, but all he does is slow him down.

So yea JU was going ALL out, 110% for the conditions, but there was probably something else that caused him to fall (maybe a little oil on the road, etc), meaning in "normal" wet conditions he probably would have made that corner.

The TdF (and most other pro-level races) are very much a team sport, with the resources available to these guys it's crazy not to use them all. Lance does, which is a big reason why he's a 5 time winner.

Andrew

Driving 5ft from the vehicle in front is considered a large gap in Italy!!!

Having driven a car in Italy, I am surprised anyone dares to ride a bike.

I have to admit watching the car I was scared for Jan.

Gotcha mouseorgan! :)

The manager was following too close. Actually, they were almost sitting on Ulrich and may have slowed him down just like another rider trying to stop a break away might have...

In conditions such as those, Jan needed all of his attention dedicated to the road and conditions. The team car was dangerously close for those conditions, on that snake course, especially when he had shown a slippery condition was effecting him, via his fall.

The team car SLOWED Jan down, because his attention was fractured and he couldn't take ANY chances around corners now, not for fear of loosing the Tour, but loosing his life.

The fall motivated LA in a way that nothing else had that race, he said so himself. JU not attacking after the fall is proper etiquette but had no great impact on the overall race. If LA had not found the motivation, that might have made a difference.

JU did respond to the attack it's just that he's very vulnerable to an attack like that on hills and can't or at least doesn't jump like LA and other climbers.

Before we forget JU WAS taking time back (about 17 sec. as I recall) by the end of the stage. For the JU fans what you needed was the finish to be another KM higher.

The weather for the ITT ended whatever small chance JU had. On that flat a course with the possibility of winning the GC JU would have been unbeatable IMO but I don't think he could have taken enough time out of LA to take the Yellow. With rain noone was going to go fast enough, just wasn't possible.

Let's not forget that JU isn't the best technical rider in the pro peloton. He's legendary for misjudging corners, even in the dry. When the rain came, his Tour was over. If anything, Bianchi should have been incredibly careful to let him know exactly what the course was like before he got out there on it. A rider like him needed to know to watch that corner in particular. IMHO, Armstrong would have won that TT without Ulrich crashing, because, as we all saw at Ardiden, he's an incredible bike handler.