"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - Lance doesn't think Ullrich was trying to wait

I just saw on OLN Lance saying that based on nthe replay footage, he didn't think Jan was waiting for him after the crash on stage 15 until Hamilton held back the pack. Interesting...

I just saw that myself...

I watched it 4 times the day of the race and I wondered why Tyler was 3rd or 4th and then went to the front to give the "slow down" sign if Jan was waiting...

Jan didn't attack, but Lance rode with him for over a 1000 miles so he probably knows the deal. And Lance isn't one to take "pot shots".

It was a good interview...

I saw that too. These guys seem to speak their mind.

I saw it as Ullrich wasn't pushing it but he wasn't waiting either until Tyler came up to inform the group to slow. I think Lance has a point that Ullrich wasn't waiting but Ullrich didn't attack on the situation so I guess you can call that waiting.

I saw the same thing, but I didn't want to say anything, cause I thought I was crazy!

It looked like Jan was continuing on, but kept looking back... and it wasn't until Hamilton rolled up and started giving the slow down signal and yelling that everyone slowed down. By that time, it looked like Lance was back and headed back to catch up with the lead group. I don't think Jan attacked, but it didn't look like he was holding back either until Tyler came up on the group.

I knew I wasn't crazy.

I was interested to hear him say that when he fell, he thought the tour was over (which is what I was worried of at first... i thought he would have had a damaged bike... and I figured the team car was way behind.

I beleive the proper etiquette is not to attack when someone is down but not necessarily that you have to stop or wait. I do not think anyone jumped out of the saddle and tried to sprint away and create a gap when Lance fell.

Yeah, I feel you Sam, but the news reports were saying that Jan waited. The emphasis should have been that he didn't attack, not that he waited....

I do think they were still going at a pretty good speed until Hamilton rode up, because after he gave the slow down signal, you could see the group noticeably slowing....

Koff

Originally posted by brent_dube
. i thought he would have had a damaged bike... and I figured the team car was way behind.

It has been reported that Lance did have a damaged bike and that's why he had the second "stumble" where he nearly split himself in half on the top tube after recovering from the first crash.

Purportedly, when Mayo hit Lance's Trek he ran into and cracked the left rear chainstay. This was causing his chain line to move around as the stay continued to flex. His cleats popped out of the pedals as a result of the chain jumping from the higher end of the cogset to the smallest cog in a single, sudden movement. So, for the rest of the attack, he was nursing the bike along.

It was noted, if Lance didn't ride with such a high cadence -- or if he was forced to sprint or descend on the way to the finish of the stage-- it would have been unlikely that he could have continued to ride the damaged Trek.

Right after Lance got his bearings (after the second stumble), they showed a close up of his wheel. Seriously, it looked damaged. I was worried there when I saw the condition of the wheel alone...

On the OLN retrospective tonight, Lance said that after he caught that spectator's bag in the Pyrenees and crashed he didn't think Ulrich slowed down until Hamilton caught up with the group and told them to slow. lance thought Jan just kept going... He said looking at the tapes showed it. he wasn't bitter, just typical straightforwad Armstrong

Up here in Canada, after Sunday, that's it for cycling. No more TDF '03 re-caps or other cycling coverage til maybe the World's in Hamilton in Oct and/or July '04. Nothing but Caribbean Workout and BowFlex right now. We're dying up here for cycling coverage on TV. Anybody else here in Canada concur? What does one do for getting any cycling coverage on TV in Canada?

It looked to me like Jan sat up and slowed up. Hamilton did sprint to the front of the group and gestured for everyone to slow down. I think that the whole group slowed, they just didn't want to totally stop.

I missed the show, BUT I SAID IT FROM THE TIME OF THE FALL! Ulrich DID NOT WAIT. In fact, look at your tapes, HE WAS DROPPING EVERYONE! He slowed when Hamilton got there, and it didn't help him much when he turned and Armstrong was riding up his *ss anyway.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw this.

not seriously...

Do I recall that when the incident happened that Lance said something to the effect that Jan was returning a favor so to speak when LA waited for him a few years back? I guess review of the tape resulted in a change of view.

I said that in a post when it actually happened and I was booed off the stage. Thanks Lance for saying it too.

Well, I disagree w/Lance. Jan slowed enough that Mayo sure didn't have any trouble re-catching him, no? And Tyler didn't appear to have any trouble getting up there to slow Jan and the E-E riders down more.

FWIW, I suspect Mayo and Zubeldia would have hammered to the finish if it weren't for Tyler. Under those circumstances, it would be hard (and take lots of confidence) to wait. Just my take.

Well, I disagree w/Lance[/i]

And I agree with roadbuzz.

Armstrong surely is a great cyclist and an admirable personality--so don’t get me wrong, please--but his attitude/social stance/knowledge of riding tradition and etiquette sometimes lag behind.

Ullrich WAS WAITING. You can re-wind the tape as much as you want to. He did slow down and looked behind several times to find out whether Armstrong and Mayo were coming back. He didn’t attack (we will never know whether he actually had the legs to do so--later on he surely wasn’t capable of countering Armstrong’s demarrage). He did lose his rhythm.

Just as Ullrich didn’t want to seize the ‘opportunity’ and accept fate’s present, Armstrong apparently cannot accept that a small part of his Victory was not in his own hands, but in those of his opponents.

Tyler Hamilton--another Giant, make no mistake about it--was over-acting a bit, IMHO. His sheriff pose looked nice, but came a bit late: Ullrich et al. were already ‘taking orders’. Not that Hamilton was faking. I think his concern with his friend and former teammate was genuine (just as the tap on Armstrong’s back after his crazy cyclocross adventure pursuant to Beloki’s fall).

Peace.

this is just what I saw and said.
Full Acc.

If Lance actually siad what you're saying he said then I think he's just lot a whole bunch of brownie points in my book.
Riders who take the long way round corners usually aren't attacking or trying to open gap.
That climb is pretty steep so I doubt anyone would want to stop for a coffee while Lance caught up.
They slowed sufficiently for him to catch the group at his normal pace.
Ettiquette dictates that no-one attack the yellow jersey. And No-one attacked.

10/10 to Ullrich for his sportsmanship and conduct throughout the tour.
Next yr Jan, it's yours. I have decided

Originally posted by TimB
If Lance actually siad what you're saying he said then I think he's just lot a whole bunch of brownie points in my book.
Riders who take the long way round corners usually aren't attacking or trying to open gap.
That climb is pretty steep so I doubt anyone would want to stop for a coffee while Lance caught up.
They slowed sufficiently for him to catch the group at his normal pace.
Ettiquette dictates that no-one attack the yellow jersey. And No-one attacked.

10/10 to Ullrich for his sportsmanship and conduct throughout the tour.
Next yr Jan, it's yours. I have decided

Well put Tim! That's exactly how I saw it. if Ullrich had wanted to attack, why take the wide route?

Blind patriotism is all very well, but it does interfere with your vision doesn't it?

LA has just gone down in my estimation.

Lance is not helping himself here. Ullrich is sitting up, looking behind and taking wide corners. He's not obligated to get off the bike. Given Ullrich's climbing style if he had actually dismounted he'd never be able to get going again. Lance didn't actually dismount when he waited for Ullrich 2 years ago either. If this continues people will start asking him why he didn't even look back at Beloki after he got across the field.


You sit up and give the crashed rider a chance to rejoin. If he can the race is back on, if he can't (I don't know how long you wait) the race goes on without him.

I like LA but I've never understood his occasional tendency to take shots at his competitors especially when you consider how hot he gets when someone does it to him.

Originally posted by Walter
I like LA but I've never understood his occasional tendency to take shots at his competitors especially when you consider how hot he gets when someone does it to him.

I just wonder if there is some sort of tiff going on between Jan and Lance?

For what it's worth, this is my take on the scene:

At first, Jan did not stop. However, with adrenaline pumping and the tour on the line, his body most probably reacted before his mind could fully comprehend what was happening. After he got his head straight, he did wait. If he didn't wait @ this point, Tyler would never have had the opportunity to get in front of him and signal for all to slow for the yellow jersey.

Ok - so Ullrich slowed ever so slightly and that was waiting? He was going!!! Watch it again!!!

If everybody is being so nice,why in the hell dose TH have to put his hand up to wait.Why?Because they were not and you have to look at jans face at that time and you can see it in his face,What to do.Should i keep going or what?LA said is is a very nice guy but they dont talk.Why?LA doesnt speak german and jans english is 2 or three words.I dont know much about tdf but i know what i see.Also,5 time champ,got to figure he know more then us.Ya think?

Originally posted by flyefisher
Ok - so Ullrich slowed ever so slightly and that was waiting? He was going!!! Watch it again!!!

Believe me, if JU had not waited he would have won the TDF.

Give credit where it's due and try to accept that JU did the sporting thing.

I've watched it several times, Liggett Sherwin and Roche all saw it the same way. As did every newspaper hack I've read.

Ulrich could not have won the tour if he wanted to just because Lance fell. Lance fell and was right back up. Lance caught the group because of panic and adrenaline pumping. You saw his team telling him to take it easy.

Additionally, Ullrich was doing as a smart man does, Look around and push those sticks at the same time. Ulrich does'nt stand when he attacks anyway.

And again, he did'nt take that corner wide until he heard Hamilton screeming.

I love Ulrich, but he did'nt wait.

Originally posted by chewa
Blind patriotism is all very well, but it does interfere with your vision doesn't it?


Actually, blind patriotism is a bit dangerous as I'm sure you actually know. But blind assumtion based on nationality ain't too swell either.


Don't think Jan waiting lost him the race.
Do think he waited.
Don't care for Lance's comments whether true or not.
Still respect both riders.

I don't think JU slowed down, but he didn't attack either. He didn't have it in him as evident by the fact he lost 40+ seconds on that climb.


Believe me, if JU had not waited he would have won the TDF.

He would have? He didn't have the strength to catch up to LA on his attack, how could he have put time in? LA had the strength to put 40+ seconds on him that day, plus the 17 seconds JU was already behind. Somehow I don't think JU could have pulled a minute gap on the hard charging LA, he wasn't on the ground that long.

Andrew

Maybe so Andrew, but I think slowing up did lose his rythm and the crash maybe gave Armstrong an adrenalin boost.

I think the gap would have been smaller and the potential was that he would have attacked on a smaller gap rather than leave to the ITT.

My own view is that JU lost the race, not that LA won it, and a lot of that was down to poor tactics by his DS.

Originally posted by Ajay213
I don't think JU slowed down, but he didn't attack either. He didn't have it in him as evident by the fact he lost 40+ seconds on that climb.



He would have? He didn't have the strength to catch up to LA on his attack, how could he have put time in? LA had the strength to put 40+ seconds on him that day, plus the 17 seconds JU was already behind. Somehow I don't think JU could have pulled a minute gap on the hard charging LA, he wasn't on the ground that long.

Andrew

Lance had the gap out to 57 secs then Ullrich pegged it back to 40sec. Thats 17sec lost to lance. Difficult to make a decision on whether Ullrich would have won because Lance fell.

The issue is did Ullrich behave in an unsportsman like manner as Lance is suggesting.
No he did not. He waited, He may not have slowed - hedoes'nt have to, He did not attack - as true sportsman would'nt.
Tyle hamilton's frantic waiving of his arms was a physical gesture to remind those inthe leading group what the etiquette is. I don't think they needed reminding. Mayo was waiting so was Zubeldia. Ullrich was up at the front and riding but looking back.

I think it is ridiculous to suggest that Ullrich should have stopped his bike. The gradient on that part of the course is 1:10! You don't stop you bike unless you really have to.
Lance saying what he said, I my view, is an act of unsportsmanlike behaviour. This really diminishes the value of the win which he worked so hard for.

I'm thinking he know more then what we see in replays.

Originally posted by bac

At first, Jan did not stop. However, with adrenaline pumping and the tour on the line, his body most probably reacted before his mind could fully comprehend what was happening. After he got his head straight, he did wait.

that is exactly what I thought.

Originally posted by chewa
Maybe so Andrew, but I think slowing up did lose his rythm

Jan seems to think not. In fact, he was happy to slow as the pace was very fast:

“It’s only fair that I waited for Lance, because that’s what sport’s about,” Ullrich said. “Lance has done this before for me and I was happy to catch my breath, too.”

Source:

Jan says it! (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2841-752977,00.html)

Bac, I think you've actually said what Armstrong was saying. I didn't get the impression from Lance that he was angry, just that after reviewing the tape (he said "we" (I think) which would mean coaches) it appeared that Jan did not *slow*. LA never said he attacked. I watched it a bit too and it did seem that he just kept on. Now, Jan was in trouble, so keeping the same pace may have BEEN slowing down for him ;) but I'm inclined to agree somewhat with LA. There was no "I can't believe that *******" when he said it. More just a bit of "it wasn't what you think it was". After all, he's a pro cyclist and is a better judge of an attack, keeping the same pace, or slowing downthan we are.

I think Jan just kept on at the same pace until Tyler came by. Looks like it on the little bit of tape I get to see. That doesn't mean he's unsportsman like, just that he did what I would have done. He did NOT attack (and Lance didn't say he did) but Tyler is the one who slowed them all down. As for Jan saying he waited, of course he did, after Tyler slowed them all. He's not a bad guy for going on, I just think Lance was telling Paul and Phil that he did not automaticaly slow down when he saw the crash. Tyler was responsible for that.

I agree with Chewa that Jan lost the race. LA pointed out hat he got a call from every USPS rider after the TT on Stage 19 about bad corners but that JU had ?3? teammates crash at that exact corner and none called him. LA was kind of shocked that's JU teammates would screw him like that. He also said he felt that JU's coach dropped the ball at a few points. I don't think LA has anything against JU, he's just calling it like he sees it. Heck, he's a Texan. Live here for a few years and you'll see what I mean :P

I think TimB may have said this better than I just did in his last post (see a few posts up)

Originally posted by Bruco
Tyler Hamilton--another Giant, make no mistake about it--was over-acting a bit, IMHO. His sheriff pose looked nice, but came a bit late: Ullrich et al. were already ‘taking orders’. Not that Hamilton was faking. I think his concern with his friend and former teammate was genuine (just as the tap on Armstrong’s back after his crazy cyclocross adventure pursuant to Beloki’s fall).

BTW, according to Tyler himself, that tap on Armstrong's back was actually originally meant to be a push. But just as Tyler went to actually administer it, he realised he was using his bum shoulder and immediately withdrew arm.

Remember how Joe Montana wouldn't give Steve Young the time of day? It was part of his competitive make-up and gave him an edge. If Lance Armstrong needs to cultivate this 'us against the world' attitude after 5 Tour victories, I suppose it means he intends to ride next year:)

Of course nobody was waiting on the climb- as TimB says, it's way too steep for that. They were, however, soft-pedalling to see what had transpired behind, whether Armstrong had hurt himself, could follow the pace, needed a bike change, etc. The lead group did all that etiquette demanded; Hamilton's expressive hand movements were, I hope, an accompaniment to hard information- that LA was riding back up, just a couple of corners below.

There is a limit to these gestures of solidarity. If an injured Maillot Jaune cannot follow the pace in the mountains, then he's left to his fate. How were the leaders supposed to know the extent of LA's problem in all the commotion of a crucial moment like that?

Of course Ullrich, Mayo and the rest had mixed feelings - there was a life-changing Tour win at stake. They did fine (I don't agree anyone threw away an advantage at that point)and have no reason to reproach themselves.
As for Lance? I think the '6-in-a-row' hype has begun early;)

I still believe Jan did'nt wait. I don't think he even had the strength to attack, but he did'nt wait.

Having said that, Armstrong should not have said a thing. Those are things you don't talk about. It could only serve as a blow to the character of Ulrich who has always smiled on the podium as runner-up. You say those things to your wife/coach/friends, but not the world. Bad move.

i think lance just said what he thought happened in the interview. he didnt sound like he minded that much. and he certainly wasnt busting jan's chops for not waiting. i dont think he cared that much. it didnt seem like mean spirited comment at all.

Yeah, Lance is true Texan. Sometimes they (I'm not one yet, thank God) don't know when to just shut up. he wasn't mad or boasting or whatever, but I agree he should have just kept quiet. Then again, from his book, I don't get the sense that that's LA, and since he's won 5 and had a chance at 6, maybe it's good for him (sure helped get him through cancer)

Bottom line is he was there and we were not and he's a big boy and can say what he wants without our permission.I'm sure he could give a rats a$$ what we think.

Well.........If I were Jan I sure won't be waiting next time.

Here's my take:

1. Lance did not seem like he wanted to be in that interview (recall or look at his demeanor and body language if they re-air) and I believe it showed itself in his comments as well.
2. Lance's comments were all pretty candid, and that's Lance's nature, but were not as well thought-out as his comments during post-race interviews with Frankie A. and the cycling media.
3. Lance said what he honestly believes to be true based on a lot more information than we'll ever have -- including the ability to talk racer-to-racer with the other guys like Tyler who were right along side Jan.
4. Jan didn't attack when Lance was down; that is all that's required to meet the spirit and intent of the the unwritten rule of the tour. The media has twisted this through commentary and a line of questioning that would have you believe the unwritten rule is "to wait" or "slow down".
5. IMHO, Lance exercised poor judgement by responding to the question in a way that could diminish all the good will he created with the international cycling press and media in general during this year's tour.
6. I'm really surprised that someone from his entourage -- a publicist -- didn't have that edited from the final cut.
7. Jan Ullrich is a nice guy... It wouldn't have been nearly as exciting watching the tour if he hadn't make his own incredible comeback. He also said what he believed to be true with regard to the accident and what happened.
8. You would have to have all of the riders sitting in room together watching the race with a time line running under the video to really understand how what everyone said is probably all true, depending on when they did what.
9. It did not affect the outcome of the tour and is now a moot point except to the media who have already started to create the story line for next year's tour.

Just my .02

Lance waited for Jan in '00, so it is only correct that Jan waited for Lance. Part of the unwritten chivalry of cycling.The best part of this stage is that Lance not only caught back up, but then attacked and dropped them all. Looking forward to #6.

Originally posted by Scapin
Lance not only caught back up, but then attacked and dropped them all.

Yup, be he actually followed an attack my Mayo - then stormed past him with ease. The rest, as they say, is history! :D

Originally posted by bac
Yup, be he actually followed an attack my Mayo - then stormed past him with ease. The rest, as they say, is history! :D :beer: :cool: :thumbup:

"I'm sure he could give a rats a$$ what we think"

I think that's one reason I like him so much :)

Jan historically has a slow ramp up, he has never been able to respond to attacks like others, he relys on his power to gradually catch up which he has proven unsuccessfull at when LA has attacked him on climbs. So did JA "wait"? No one, including LA would expect him to stop, get off his bike and wait for LA to catch up, that would be insane...waiting in this terminology refers to backing off,turning the tempo down, etc...LA said in the interview it was his interpretation from watching the video. Circumstances change for every given situation...there was not really a way for him to sit up when Beloki went down, they were on a 50 mph descent...Even in the lowly Cat 4 races I race in, we have "waited" when something happened...but that certainly does not imply we stopped, got off our bikes, shared a snack, had a pee...etc...etc..

New York Times article on it ...
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/10/sports/othersports/10BIKE.html