:roflmao:

I was clipped by a guy turning right while I was going strait across the crosswalk. He clipped me, swerved left and floored it. ******.

How about the handful of you guys going on and on just line up, unzip, and hang 'em out so we can see who really has the biggest one and end the bickering. This thread was quite interesting until it became a "mine is bigger than yours" contest.

I'd win that contest by the way :D

No, not yet.

Your claim that San Diego's riding conditions are somehow special, is, and remains, ridiculous.

I never claimed "San Diego's" conditions are somewhat special... I have claimed that certain areas within San Diego are somewhat unique... such as the the route I use in the golden triangle that puts me on the interstate. I even declared that the eastern edge of the area is pretty much like anywhere else... however, I have also noted that we don't have the well shouldered roads that others (such as Bek) enjoy... shoulders here may or may not exist, and often are just dirt. Typically wide areas exist at intersections... but don't expect much more. I have attended county meetings to argue for more pavement (true shoulders... not the 8 footers, but at least 4-5 feet) where roads where being improved and have had that request denied.

I have also stated many times that different conditions exist in different places in the area. I fully stand by that.

I supported HH's claims that his techniques may keep him out of trouble due to the intensity of traffic here, which was the basis for this whole thread.

You are taking words out of context in an attempt to discount my claims... you are the one that is blowing things out of proportion. And to that condition... others here on BF also seem to find your responses a bit out of line... is this a "Pete problem?" Are you unique or "special."



genec, before you make yourself appear any more foolish than you already have, I would suggest that you consider that you are unfamiliar with the traffic volumes on the roads that I ride.
Based on the fact that I had no idea where you rode... that is a fair statement.

My use of fear describes the irrational responses to riding in traffic.

Irrational is in the mind of the beholder... I find curb hugging to be irrational... I find sidewalk cycling irrational... I see those behaviors all the time. Some motorists feel that any cyclist sharing their high speed road is irrational. I ride on the interstate... many folks find that irrational. What is it that you find specifically irrational?


Non sequitur.

Whatever.


Do you dispute the fact that most of San Diego metro area has either WOL, or BL or multilaned roads?
Yes, much of San Diego metro has WOL, BL or multilaned roads, you want to go as far as to state "paved," that would be flat out difficult to deny and cover everything.

The fact is different areas of town have different conditions. Older areas of town (such as where I live) were built in the '50s, or before and there are few BL, (actually there are two bike lanes that serve all of Clairemont, both exist on 45MPH roads) and few WOL here, and the multilaned roads tend to be lined with cars as the home garages are for single vehicles. There are other areas (such as near where I work in Del Mar) where developers have put in wide multilaned Bike Laned roads... some of which are quite a pleasure to ride... others are like riding on a freeway as the traffic is heavy and moves at over 50MPH (signed for 50PH). I don't doubt that those type of roads exist in other places... either the narrow roads or the wide fast roads. Now couple the wide fast bike laned roads with strip mall businesses (each with multiple driveways), and I feel you have a potential for problems... conditions that only well skilled cyclists should ride and perhaps use special precautions.

How would you ride fast (50MPH+) bike laned roads with heavy traffic and multiple potential intersections. (use as few words as possible... as apparently being verbose is a "crime" in your mind... never mind that "it takes a thousand words to describe a picture")?

After all, I've ridden there, and I've ridden here. They are very similar.
Have you ridden in my area genec?

You have ridden in limited areas here... don't feel that you know the entire area by your limited experience... just as I have limited experience in Northern California... specifically along the coast.

But on the other hand, I have ridden in many other areas... I have toured the length of California and have seen quite a contrast between the coast hiway in Oregon (ever been there) and the coast hiway in CA. You really should check it out. (there are more than 28+ miles of nice wide shoulder... ;) ).

I also feel it rather excessive that surface streets, which are shared with cyclists and crossing pedestrians should be marked at speeds of 50, 60 and 65 MPH. Do you have and ride such roads in your area? I am not talking of farm hiways here, I am talking about curbed surface streets... with stop lights and bike lanes and businesses and apartments.

I have also toured in other areas and found the behavior of motorists to be quite a contrast from what I typically find daily here. In Mexico, for instance, motorists (even trucks and buses) gave cyclists quite a bit of room, regularly crossing the double yellow. On the other hand, vehicles with California plates tended not to cross the double yellow, and would crowd cyclists. (BTW, for the record, that yellow line did not exist everywhere... just in case you want to dance on the pin of that fact).

So bottom line, is San Diego "special?" Only in that car culture tends to be quite heavy here, ("no one walks in LA..." pretty much applies here) and some areas have unique conditions that should best be ridden by skilled cyclists... (care for a spin on the interstate) using perhaps advanced or "unique" techniques.

probably give you more confidence about bike handling skills, particularly in terms of moving at low speeds and evading obstacles.
You aren't suggesting that riding off road wouldn't help with moving at high speeds and evading obstacles, are you?
No. I'm suggesting that riding off road would probably help on road with:


Moving at low speeds, and
evading obstacles (at all speeds)

I was clipped by a guy turning right while I was going strait across the crosswalk. He clipped me, swerved left and floored it. ******.

Were you on your bike? In the crosswalk??

But if he's just a few feet back of the cyclist, about to pass him, when the cyclist suddenly adjusts, there may be no time to adjust.
Maybe learning to ride in a straight line will help improve your safety more than lane-hogging. Keep practicing noob.
Experienced cyclists know that the ability to ride in a straight line does not eliminate the need for a cyclist to suddenly adjust laterally from time to time. Apparently, you're the noob, if you don't know that.

How would you ride fast (50MPH+) bike laned roads with heavy traffic and multiple potential intersections. (use as few words as possible... as apparently being verbose is a "crime" in your mind... never mind that "it takes a thousand words to describe a picture")?
I ride around the stripe, or in the lane, or in the gutter, or in the bike lane, depending upon what's going on around me and where I'm headed. After all, riding in traffic is not a static thing, it's constantly changing.

That's so vague it hardly constitutes being an answer, Peter. We certainly agree that riding in traffic is not a static thing, that it's constantly changing. And we agree that where we position ourselves laterally depends "upon what's going on around me and where I'm headed".

But you have provided no insight whatsoever as to what conditions would cause you to ride "around the stripe, or in the lane, or in the gutter or in the bike lane". Nor have you indicated how the condition of approaching an intersection would affect your positioning, if any.

Do not fear "lots of words". Spell it out. You can do it.

I was riding down a side street of homes at a good clip 20+ The guy in the car gunned it to get around me to turn into his driveway. I hit the brakes hard and almost stop and put a dent in the front quarter, along with rubber from my handlebar ends. It was a smooth fall into the grass in front of his house. The bike was not hurt, and I was OK. The guy was drunk, and did not think I was going that fast. The cops were not to happy with him. I never did hear what happened to him.

And for once Serge and I agree. There's nothing special about the area the you ride in.

After all, most of San Diego metro area has either WOL, or BL or multilaned roads, right?

Nope. You claimed that there's something special about the San Diego streets that you ride and indicated that I need to ride a few miles there to appreciate how dangerous they are.

Well here is the problem right here... while indeed most of San Diego has either WOL, BL or multilaned roads, that doesn't mean THOSE ARE THE STREETS I RIDE. See the difference.



I did not take anything out of context, just told you that your excuses for being so fearful didn't hold water. Strangely enough, Serge, confirmed that the streets are nothing special.


Serge also confirmed that these are streets that are best suited for experienced riders.

And BTW fear is not a factor... dealing with the traffic on the streets is...



The need to "control" passing traffic because of the fear of close passes, the belief that someone's mere presence on the road creates a reasons for traffic to slow down and merge into another lane, the fear of having a blowout and suddenly swerving into traffic, the belief that a rider can lose control at anytime and fall, etc.

Oh so you have never fallen, you have never caught a tire in a crack on the road, never hit a rock that sent you off your original track? Nothing that might cause you to swerve a mere 12 inches, or even 6 inches off your desired track? Ever have it happen when someone was passing you at say 40+MPH faster than you were moving? How about when they were passing closely? Franky I have never had a problem with close passing... but then I don't ride in the gutter either.


I ride around the stripe, or in the lane, or in the gutter, or in the bike lane, depending upon what's going on around me and where I'm headed. After all, riding in traffic is not a static thing, it's constantly changing.
Well to part of that, we do agree... although I avoid the gutter or any place that does not allow me about 2 feet of lateral movement. I also move in a way to prevent right hooks... ever been right hooked Pete? How might you prevent that? Riding in the gutter as you suggest?


Not a crime genec. Reading comprehension man! I suggest you pay more attention to it!

I discussed being verbose because Joe thinks that Serge doesn't over complicate things. I think he does and that his Wall of Words is proof of that. If you would think about it it for a bit you might understand.

It is not a matter of reading comprehension, it is a matter of trying to convey concepts in the form of the written word... Books have been written in an effort to convey concepts, so "a wall of words" IS sometimes needed to get an idea across. If you thought about that, perhaps you would understand. Further, I have found that when I tend to submit a quick phrase in an effort to shortcut my response, I end up spending a lot more time clarifying things for folks like you that then go on to want to "prove" such nitpicky items such as "roads in CA don't have shoulders..." more or less. (the reality is usually less, BTW) Of course you just went on to "prove" that some lousy 30 miles had dependable shoulder... thus still leaving the rest of the state with "whatever may actually exist there," shoulders or no.




You're comparing apples and oranges. The fact that you cling to your strange belief that San Diego is somehow special and different than riding elsewhere ion the state is interesting, but sadly naive.
Really? nothing special...? Find me a caltrans map that shows how many areas of interstate allow bicycle use. And again, speaking of reading comprehension... I pointed out specific areas, NOT all of San Diego. Perhaps you have a comprehension problem yourself.



genec, you really need to pay better attention if you're going to try to participate in a thread. I answered your question in post #69:


"I don't think they're mean streets genec. There's your fear shining through again though. They're mostly multi-lane suburban arterials, posted 40-55mph with traffic topping out around 65-70 mph on the highest speed routes. Some have bike lanes, some don't. Some have WOL, some don't. Some have shoulders, some shoulders disappear every now and then.

There are also some two lane "country-like" roads without shoulders that are signed 45-50 where the speeds are usually around 60, except in the corners.

The streets in my area see heavy commute traffic in the morning and evenings as well as heavy gravel truck traffic due to two quarries in the area."




OK here is a question for you. Do you now or have you ever commuted on those streets you describe? If not, why not? If not now, why not? You described the streets, but when do you ride... evenings and weekends or what? No Pete, you never answered the question... you threw up a county, and described some streets. That never answered the question.


The car culture is "heavy" all over California genec. The road conditions that you describe are not unique.

But I don't expect you to be able to shed your myopia and understand those facts.

Does car culture go to Oregon... how about Colorado, or Iowa? Is it possible that other areas do not have the same car culture and conditions that tend to exist in California? Why do wide shoulders appear on the length of hiway 1 through Oregon, but not the length of hiway 1 in California... what makes the difference there? No Pete, my comments are regarding the specifics of what one may have to do to ride specific streets and even on the interstate... the things that DO make riding in a particular area "unique."

But do go on riding in the gutter... apparently that works for you.

On a somewhat related note, has anyone noticed different bikes
or attire get different responses from drivers ??
I have as many cycing personalities as Sybil and after all these
years / seasons I have noticed drivers react differently to various types of
combinations. Really......When going army surpus/t-shirt on my Chunk-a-saraus
utility bike people give me more 'respect' and room than on nice shiney
stuff with Lycra shorts etc....Also, in the winter cars are so polite its
almost unnerving. They give lots of room, wave me across 4 way stops, and
pass almost too slowly. But then, as soon as the first warm weekend hits they
are back to the usual stuff. Not that its that bad, but it is noticably different...more
aggressive, less room.

There's no set answer.

Of course there is. There is at least a heuristic algorithm that your mind uses to decide where you ride when. Your fear of lots of words prevents you from being able translate into words so that the rest of us could know what it is. Your "lexiphobia" is disabling. And hysterical.

On a somewhat related note, has anyone noticed different bikes
or attire get different responses from drivers ??
I have as many cycing personalities as Sybil and after all these
years / seasons I have noticed drivers react differently to various types of
combinations. Really......When going army surpus/t-shirt on my Chunk-a-saus
utility bike people give me more 'respect' and room than on nice shiney
stuff with Lycra shorts etc....Also, in the winter cars are so polite its
almost unnerving. They give lots of room, wave me across 4 way stops, and
pass almost too slowly. But then, as soon as the first warm weekend hits they
are back to the usual stuff. Not that its that bad, but it is noticably different...more
aggressive.


for sure. riding in street clothes generates a much different response. somehow i think it removes the 'racer boy' thoughts from their head. pulling a trailer on a main street can be mixed - i get 'get on the sidewalk with your kid' (even though i don't have a kid and i'm pulling cargo) or i get a wide berth. riding the bakfiets i get looks of disbelief... 'what is that thing?'. typically i don't get kitted up when running errands - mainly street clothes, maybe my clip on shoes if i'm on the FG, maybe a helmet. responses vary here too - helmetless i seem to get the most room (esp on a dutch, upright bike) helmet in street clothes i get a little less, and helmet and kit and road bike i get the least respect.

Of course there is. There is at least a heuristic algorithm that your mind uses to decide where you ride when. Your fear of lots of words prevents you from being able translate into words so that the rest of us could know what it is. Your "lexiphobia" is disabling.

that would be the 'cyclists riding less than they write inferiority complex'. it happens to good people. seek help if you have symptoms. ;)

that would be the 'cyclists riding less than they write inferiority complex'. it happens to good people. seek help if you have symptoms. ;)
:p

Point taken. I definitely should RIDE more and WRITE less.

But for someone who spends as much time here as Peter does, it would be nice if he made the effort to observe and become better acquainted with his own traffic cycling behavior so that he could explain it better than he has so far.

Anyway, I'm going for a RIDE now...

Serge also confirmed that these are streets that are best suited for experienced riders.

Like ANY OTHER urban and suburban streets, cycling on most of the main arterial roads in the golden triangle is not for beginners.

Like ANY OTHER urban and suburban streets, cycling on most of the main arterial roads in the golden triangle is not for beginners.

Point taken... then not to sound like a "Pete," but what are all those other "exercises" that you propose to "control motorists?" I don't recall any of that in my Road II class.

Or are you proposing techniques that are above and beyond what even experience cyclists might use... perhaps borrowing a bit from Hurst et. al., that used "messenger" techniques?

I mean, certainly you don't "ride in the gutter" like Pete does? If not, why not? And what is it exactly you are proposing?

BTW for the record, I have never been clipped... and I tend to ride well out of the gutter. And indeed I have fallen in traffic... on a few occasions... couple of times when my 23s caught a crack** (which is why I prefer wider tires on my commuter) and once on a wet steel plate. Also for the record, I would like to see a 3 foot rule... as it at a minimum tells motorists to watch out... although it won't carry any real weight lest one is actually hit... in which case, existing laws should suffice (but rarely do).

** Oh regarding cracks... San Diego IS on record as having some very poorly maintained streets... which may in fact make this a "unique" area, in spite of some other claims here.

Oh really?

Are you sure that you don't ride on those streets? That would mean that there aren't any posts that you have made about streets that are either WOL, or BL or multilaned roads in San diego, right?

Never said that Pete, but I can't leave my home and home neighborhood or the local community without riding on streets that don't fit your list.



Your incessant whines about traffic being too fast on the "mean streets" and inattentive drivers, etc. are all fear-driven.



Fear has nothing to do with it... observation has everything to do with it. Try opening your eyes, you might be surprised at what you can see if you really look. My son and I make a game of watching for idiot moves by motorists. BTW he makes his meager collegiate living driving a delivery vehicle all over town. Oddly enough, he never has to speed either.



Yes I've had close passes, brushes, etc. yet I do not feel the need to control every motorist and make them slow down as they pass me and change lanes. Nor do I feel that I need a six foor safety bubble around me while I ride, etc., etc.

Hmmm...

Neither do I, nor have I suggested such a thing. :rolleyes:



See, right there is a wonderful example of your myopia. Where did I suggest that anyone ride in the gutter to avoid a right hook? That's another one of your pathetic straw man questions/arguments. I do not suggest riding in the gutter, but riding in the gutter can be quite beneficial when a tractor trailer truck hauling two empty gravel carriers zigs a bit to avoid a retread peel-off and the rear trailer sways towards you. A quick adjustment into the gutter and back makes sense. But hey, I ride "in the gutter" right?

No I haven't ever been right hooked. I stay aware and move left if it looks like someone's going to be dumb, if the intersection is dicey, if folks are signaling behind me, etc.

Oh golly did I suggest riding in the gutter to avoid right hooks... I don't believe so. But you did say that is where you ride... and repeated it. Oh and look, you even stated you move left to avoid certain situations... gosh, just like HH suggests... My my aren't you the hypocrite. And you also mention that trucks can zig... but what, cyclists can't... to avoid the same sort of road hazards? Hmmm again something of a hypocritical response, I would have to say.



That's because you share Serge's inability to write succinctly and accurately.



Have you looked at the wall of words you have put up in response to this thread? :rolleyes:



Well genec, it just so happens that there's one stretch of freeway right here in Contra Costa County that I've ridden. It's Hwy 24 just West of the Caldecott Tunnel.


Furthermore:

" Of the more than 4,000 miles of freeways in California, about 1,000 miles are open to bicyclists. These open sections are usually in rural areas where there is no alternate route. California Vehicle Code Section 21960 says Caltrans and local agencies may prohibit bicyclists from traveling on freeways under their jurisdiction and that they must erect signs stating the prohibition. There are no signs permitting bicyclists on freeways. When a bicyclist is legally traveling on a freeway, he/she may be directed off the freeway at the next off-ramp by a sign that says "Bicycles Must Exit." The freeway will be posted at the next on-ramp with a sign that says "Bicycles Prohibited."



genec, I'm really doubting your mental capacity at this point. You asked a similar question earlier in the thread, which I answered in post #16 (http://bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=5140053&postcount=16).

Since you seem to be utterly confused, here is the answer that I gave you on 3/30/07 to a similar question:


Pete, I'm only wanting to illustrate for those that may read this afterward, exactly what the context is. Do go on. Of course your lack of verbosity does leave one wondering... perhaps you could spend a few paragraphs actually discussing how and where you ride. That one sentence just covers only "so much." Why indeed did you quit commuting... was it "fear?"



Not only is it possible, but I think that it is true.

But that doesn't mean squat in the context of your claim that because you thought that I had not ridden in San Diego and because you assumed that San Diego riding is so very different than the area that I ride in, I couldn't understand "mean streets" and "aggresive motorists" that you so bravely endure.
There you go again lumping the entire town into the small area I have described... shame shame Pete... there you go making those same apples/oranges comparisons. And I thought you so disliked that...

And how could I think otherwise... you just don't take the time to write anything... except one sentence rebuttles... much like your comment below... :rolleyes:



genec, that is a very, very dumb thing to write, even for you.

You wrote it first, I just encouraged it... carry on.

Yup, San Diego is unique because the streets are poorly maintained. Brilliant!

Did you notice the quote marks Pete??? Do you understand parody? How about sarcasm?

Oy Veh!

So you DO ride on those types of streets. Ok, why would you post "that doesn't mean THOSE ARE THE STREETS I RIDE" if you do indeed ride those kind of streets?

p.s. That's not my list. That's your list, describing San Diego riding.

What? You lost me here. Your list of WOL, BL and Mulitlaned streets as "most of San Diego" does not cover the streets I need to ride to get to "WOL, BL and Mulitlaned streets." Those streets, specifically built in the 50s are narrow and lined with parked cars.... and in some cases fast.



I do see bonehead moves made by motorists. The difference is that I don't incessantly whine about drivers speeding and making those moves on these forums.

Why not? Afraid to? Doesn't the observation of bonehead moves belong in a safety forum?



Where did I write that you had suggested that genec? Please pay attention. You offered up San Diego's riding environment as an excuse for Serge doing those things.



You brought up the strange 6 foot bubble... I didn't. I even mentioned that riding centerish was somewhat excessive. Perhaps you need to pay more attention.




Yes.

"ever been right hooked Pete? How might you prevent that? Riding in the gutter as you suggest?"

Well certainly riding in the gutter is not going to help... but again, you missed the sarcasm there... as riding in the gutter is not a potential solution. Must be the comprehension thing you accuse me of...

Which part of "depending upon what's going on around me" are you struggling with?

Oh you mean facing unique situations with unique techniques... oh please... you've been trying to tell me all of California is just like your "backyard... " and now you get into this depending on what's going on business... Donno Pete... I wouldn't want to think you are responding to "unique situations... "


No hypocrisy genec as there are some situations where moving left makes sense. The difference, which you are struggling to understand, is that there are many situations where Serge advocates moving left that make no sense to me, because I'm not driven by his irrational fears.



Or you haven't face those situations, as regular as you seem to be trying to say your environment is... you did say for instance you haven't been right hooked. But then you have yet to actually describe "depending upon what's going on around me" have you? So for all any of us know, what you do may sound just as strange to a reader as what HH is trying to describe. But you are afraid to express yourself... you just want to beat down on others with your short "slap" responses. Why don't you actually try writing something... actually debate HH with why his technique is so irrational... rather than your usual "fear talk."




I'm wondering if your normal condition is just being incredibly addled.

Could be... but you're responding to it... :eek:




Of course cyclists can zig (as noted in my previous post). The road hazard in question wasn't in my path of travel so there was no need for me to zig due to the road hazard, although there was a need to zig due to the trailer.
Uh, you mentioned trucks zigging... and cyclists moving to the gutter...



Coming from you, that means...nothing.
Ditto from you.

genec, you asked many inane questions and raised many topics and I was merely being polite by answering them all. Contrast that with my succint answers to individual questions and your wall of words accusation is quite silly.

or your answers are just incomplete.



Translation: Well, you provided an example that disproves my claim and even added evidence that 1/4 of the freeway miles in CA allow bikes. This hardly makes my claim about San Diego being unique credible, but I'll just post up some words to distract from that fact.
Again I never said San Diego is unique, I did say the roads I use are unique... But you keep jumping on the area itself... I gotta wonder about your reading comprehension Pete.



genec, you have some real issues with your memory, or this forum's interface is too complicated for you, or both. Or perhaps you have a bad memory... as I specifically excluded certain areas... but you seem to have forgotten that...




genec, it's not an apples and oranges comparison. The fact is that the area you ride is not special and is no different than many other areas, however much that troubles you because you apparently feel that you face "mean streets" that others would have trouble riding.

Specifically what do you mean by "others" as even HH says experience is key to riding in this area.



I wrote it along with a qualifier and you ignored the qualifier made a huge assumption and ran with it. In the process, you look very dumb.

p.s. Your retreat from characterizing me as a gutter rider is very funny.

Retreat... heck I loved your comment... really put you right where I thought you belonged.



My bad genec. Given the fact that you post so many outrageous, silly and downright confused things people are not going to easily recognize a weak attempt at humor as humor.

Rather, given your posting history, they are going to believe that it is a serious post.

Just as serious as your's.

But for someone who spends as much time here as Peter does, it would be nice if he made the effort to observe and become better acquainted with his own traffic cycling behavior so that he could explain it better than he has so far.

I don't owe you, or anyone else for that matter, a Wall of Words description of how I would handle each and every situation. If you cannot understand the succinct description that I have given you have no one but yourself to blame.
I understand your "succinct description", it just doesn't say very much.

The implication that I need to become better acquainted with my own traffic cycling behavior is ludicrous, yet perfectly understandable when one considers the source.
Well, you're apparently not sufficiently well acquainted with your own traffic cycling skills to be able to explain them in a meaningful manner.

The following puts your understanding of the entire topic into serious question.

What is the set answer to how the condition of approaching an intersection would affect your positioning, if any?

Bonus points if you can type with enough clarity to answer in a single sentence. After all, there's a set answer.

Writers like Forester, Franklin, Glowacz, Hurst and Bluejay devote chapters to essentially answering this question and you think it might be possible to answer it in a single sentence? :rolleyes:

It's no wonder you can't answer this question. You probably have no idea what the answer is.

Yes, I'm dodging. First, I've discussed this topic countless times. If you don't already know my answer, then your reading comprehension is so pathetic there is no point in retyping it anyway. Second, I asked first. Third, I don't feel like it right now. But I will if you will.

Exactly. There is no set answer since there are so many variables that it takes an entire chapter(s) to answer the question.
Now you're mistaking the need for lengthy explanation with "no set answer". :rolleyes:

Whether you realize it or not, your brain has a heuristic algorithm that it uses to decide where you position yourself, and the condition of approaching an intersection affects the answer. That algorithm is the set answer. These other guys worked out what they were doing, thought about it, refined it, and eventually put it down in words. Not surprisingly, for the most part, they essentially say the same stuff, in their own words.

You can't even put it in your own words.


See above Serge.

An incomplete list of conditions does not even begin to explain how the manifestations of these conditions affect your positioning. Your answer above is meaningless. JJ recognized it first - that you fear lots of words from others. Now we see you fear your own lots of words. Your "lexiphobia" is debilitating.

Wow, some nanny moderator deleted my reply...I can't say that I'm surprised.
I would have been suprised if you had been.

You've been lost from the start.

Again, that is not my list. That is your list. That is a direct quote from you.

Given the fact that you do ride WOL, BL and multi-laned streets, it's just plain disingenuous, and contradictory, of you to post:

"most of San Diego has either WOL, BL or multilaned roads, that doesn't mean THOSE ARE THE STREETS I RIDE."





No, I'm not afraid to whine about bonehead moves, I just don't think they are a big deal and whining about them here doesn't accomplish anything, other than you getting some of your fear off of your chest of course.






I'm going to type this very slowly for you. Feel free to mouth the words as you red them to help you understand.


I was commenting on Serge's strange fear-based behaviors /beliefs.
You jumped in suggesting that the area that he rides might require special techniques.
I alluded to one of his strange beliefs (six foot safety bubble) and you thought I was referring to you


Get it?




My bad again. With the volume of silly things that you post, sarcasm is easily lost when you post something that is silly, in jest.



Not a unique situation (vehicle encroaching on your space) nor a unique technique (moving left to avoid conflict).




genec, that is a lie. A complete mis characterization of what I've typed.

Please quote me typing "all of California is just like my back yard."

FYI, I have merely been pointing out the fact that your riding conditions are not special and can be found in many other places.




I agree you wouldn't want to think. Why start now when you haven't been thinking in this thread?

Yes, my position on the roadway does depend upon what's going on around me. It's not a difficult concept to grasp if you think about it.

Does your position on the road not depend upon what is going on around you?



What? He advocates moving left when being passed "too closely" (defined by him as less than three feet of clearance).

I've faced that situation hundreds, if not thousands of times.




Yes I have. Read post #135.



The fact that you having trouble reading a thread does not make me afraid to express myself. See post #135, again.



Nope. I have described why some of the techniques that he describes are irrational. Again, maybe it's time for you to do some reading lest you continue to make yourself out to be a fool.




At this point, given the difficulty that you are having in this thread, there is no doubt in my mind that you are somehow impaired.




Wow. Truck zigs, trailer moves into my path, I zig (move) to the gutter briefly. Is that really that difficult to follow?





Do you ride in San Diego genec?

"HH and I ride within just a few miles of each other in roughly the same area with roughly the same traffic... could it be that we are simply both reacting to the same traffic situations that are unique in our environment that may not exist in other places."



What does that have to do with my answer to your question "Why indeed did you quit commuting... was it "fear?"



Folks who you think would have trouble riding there because they are not local and/or haven't experienced the "unique" (your silly claim) riding conditions.



I'm glad you liked it. It is a quite fitting, and very succinct, description of your whole "gutter rider" fiasco.
Wow, Gene, you really have Pete floundering.

I've never seen him devote so much word-space to defending himself (but then again, I don't read many of his posts...

Experienced cyclists know that the ability to ride in a straight line does not eliminate the need for a cyclist to suddenly adjust laterally from time to time. Apparently, you're the noob, if you don't know that.

If you're looking where you're going instead of obsessing over what's going on behind you, there's no need to adjust suddenly, because you'll see any obstructions well in advance.

Wow, Gene, you really have Pete floundering.

I've never seen him devote so much word-space to defending himself (but then again, I don't read many of his posts...
+1

Yes, Gene, you have done an excellent job.

But perhaps we should leave the whackjob in his Fantasyland where he can bask in his ever-growing delusions?

If you're looking where you're going instead of obsessing over what's going on behind you, there's no need to adjust suddenly, because you'll see any obstructions well in advance.
Like the previously undetected dog or ball that suddenly shoots into the road from the side?

And if you're looking where you're going 100% of the time with 100% coverage, you're inhuman. Every now and then, we all miss something until the point where all we can do is suddenly veer around it. Even you, Superman.

And even though all this might happen relatively rarely for you and me, it happens all too often for other cyclists. Have you ever considered encouraging motorists to pass cyclists with a safe clearance might help a cyclist less skilled than you avoid a crash some time in the future? Consider that one third of the respondents to this poll have experienced crashes with close-passers (also note that I'm not one of them).

Whatever, I think we mostly agree and you're just being a grouch.

Like the previously undetected dog or ball that suddenly shoots into the road from the side?

And if you're looking where you're going 100% of the time with 100% coverage, you're inhuman. Every now and then, we all miss something until the point where all we can do is suddenly veer around it. Even you, Superman.

I prefer to apply the brake rather than suddenly swerve into traffic.

And even though all this might happen relatively rarely for you and me, it happens all too often for other cyclists.

I'm not so arrogant that I think I can speak with any authority about 'other cyclists'.

Have you ever considered encouraging motorists to pass cyclists with a safe clearance might help a cyclist less skilled than you avoid a crash some time in the future?

I never said that encouraging safe passing isn't worthwhile. For a start, it's a legal requirement of all road users to pass safely, and if I don't think drivers are going to do it, I claim enough of the lane to force them to change lanes to pass me, and if I am claiming a lane, I hold my line. This only applies to lanes too narrow to share.

Where I disagree with you is where it's necessary to claim the lane. Take that example in the other thread with the 50' shoulder. There is absolutely no need whatsoever to ride in the lane there to 'encourage safe passing'. With that much road width, there is ample room for safe passing. Your insistence that it's 'pragmatic' to ride so that the one in a zillion driver that can't stay in the lane will be more aware of you is indicative of exactly the same fear of passing traffic that motivates kerb-hugging. You are severely over-estimating the risk. That's not pragmatism by any definition of the word.

Apart from anything else, you can just as easily monitor following traffic from the shoulder, and on a shoulder that wide, you've still got plenty of room to avoid them even if they do drift across the line.

But hey, you ride however you want. It's no skin off my nose. But if you advise people that don't know any better to follow your style, don't be surprised when other members speak up.

Consider that one third of the respondents to this poll have experienced crashes with close-passers (also note that I'm not one of them).

Also note that not a single one was due to a sudden swerve by the cyclist due to a tyre blowing out, nor, going by the descriptions in the thread, was it due to a sudden swerve for any reason. Again, you're making much ado about nothing.

Besides, if you think that any poll conducted on this forum has any statistical significance whatsoever, you're a bigger fool than I thought.

genec serves up so many softballs that it's sometimes tough to hit them all at once.
How humble of you.

Given your bias, I'm not surprised at your reaction.
My true reaction, and bias, to your posts is astonishment at your immaturity.

We all have fun here, and also have our fist-fights.

But you're just plain nasty.

I never said that encouraging safe passing isn't worthwhile. For a start, it's a legal requirement of all road users to pass safely, and if I don't think drivers are going to do it, I claim enough of the lane to force them to change lanes to pass me, and if I am claiming a lane, I hold my line. This only applies to lanes too narrow to share.

Where I disagree with you is where it's necessary to claim the lane. Take that example in the other thread with the 50' shoulder. There is absolutely no need whatsoever to ride in the lane there to 'encourage safe passing'. With that much road width, there is ample room for safe passing. Your insistence that it's 'pragmatic' to ride so that the one in a zillion driver that can't stay in the lane will be more aware of you is indicative of exactly the same fear of passing traffic that motivates kerb-hugging. You are severely over-estimating the risk. That's not pragmatism by any definition of the word.

Apart from anything else, you can just as easily monitor following traffic from the shoulder, and on a shoulder that wide, you've still got plenty of room to avoid them even if they do drift across the line.

But hey, you ride however you want. It's no skin off my nose. But if you advise people that don't know any better to follow your style, don't be surprised when other members speak up.

Why is it that when discussing using a default centerish lane position that members of this forum can't seem to remember all of the reasons for doing so? Instead, they latch on to one aspect of it and then proceed to dismiss the technique because they feel the one aspect they remembered is not worth all of the effort.

Why is it that when discussing using a default centerish lane position that members of this forum can't seem to remember all of the reasons for doing so? Instead, they latch on to one aspect of it and then proceed to dismiss the technique because they feel the one aspect they remembered is not worth all of the effort.

What other reasons? There's no reason at all to choose the lane over a 50' wide shoulder.

What other reasons? There's no reason at all to choose the lane over a 50' wide shoulder.

There are plenty of other reasons that have been outlined countless times. I can retype them if you'd like though. Some may not seem to apply with a 50 foot shoulder but tell me how many roads you've cycled on with a 50' shoulder? I don't think one extreme example is a very good basis for an argument.

Location: Seven Locks Road, Cabin John, MD, just south of where said road crosses under I-495 (Capitol Beltway). I was traveling north, as was the motorist.
Type of location: suburban road
Lane locations: 2-way road, each lane being 11 feet in width (average)
Approximate speeds: I was going 28 mph, motorist was going at least 45 mph (posted speed limit was 35)
Did I swerve left: No - I was about 18 inches from the curb, riding a predictably straight line.

I've tried this link thing with no luck hope it works now. This is from a local weekly.http://www.newportmercury.com/pov/ This kid is too much. I've been hit a few times usually a mirror.although i was hit by a boat once (on a trailer) but I was on skates at the time.

There are plenty of other reasons that have been outlined countless times. I can retype them if you'd like though. Some may not seem to apply with a 50 foot shoulder but tell me how many roads you've cycled on with a 50' shoulder? I don't think one extreme example is a very good basis for an argument.

Well, no, but using it as an example does highlight the absurdity of riding 'default centreish' when there is no compelling reason to do so.

What other reasons? There's no reason at all to choose the lane over a 50' wide shoulder.
There's no reason at all to choose the shoulder when faster same direction traffic is not present, and the only reason to choose the shoulder when fsdt is present is to make it easier for them to pass.

But there are reasons to choose the lane over a shoulder, even a 50' wide shoulder, that have very little or nothing to do with faster same direction traffic.

In general, it mostly has to do with the best protection against mishap (coming from any direction) being vigilance, maintaining good situational awareness, and habitually following best practices.

More specifically, riding centerish whenever fsdt is not present is a best practice I choose to follow habitually because:
it improves sight lines between me and potential hazards in front of me; I am able to see them sooner and they are more likely to see me sooner.
it makes me more conspicuous to motorists in front of me (as well as those approaching from behind), and "engages" me more with traffic: it helps me maintain good vigilance and situational awareness.
The pavement in the traffic lane is almost always significantly cleaner and in better condition than the pavement in the shoulder.Conversely, habitually riding in road margins tends to make you less conspicuous, more likely to be overlooked (from behind as well as and more importantly in front of you), less "engaged" with traffic and puts you on pavement that is much more likely to be littered in debris.

But the main reason is that a more centerish position improves sight lines to and from you with respect to potential conflicts in front of you, which is particularly important during periods of no faster same direction traffic such as depicted in the photo in the OP. If there is a blind driveway to the right coming up, then you will see it sooner the further left you are riding out in the lane. And if there is an intersection coming up that you didn't notice yet, someone about to pull out of it is much more likely to notice you if you are out in the lane rather than in the shoulder. If you are habitually riding in the lane by default, then oncoming traffic that may potentially suddenly slow down to make a left turn into a driveway that you perhaps didn't even notice, or wouldn't have had you been riding in the shoulder, is more likely to notice you sooner, leaving you less likely to fall victim to a left cross. If there is a hazard in the shoulder, there is no need for you to merge left, because you're already there. And you are less likely encounter obstacles and debris out in the road because they tend to collect in the shoulder or bike lanes.

But I've pointed all this out to you before, and you continue to act as if you've never seen it.

Well, no, but using it as an example does highlight the absurdity of riding 'default centreish' when there is no compelling reason to do so.
You see, your words imply that one should not be riding 'default centreish' when there is no compelling reason to do so; that one should identify a reason to be centerish before moving there from the margin. And that's the problem, because from the margin your sight lines are shortened or blocked so that sometimes you can't identify the reason to be centerish because you're not centerish. And once you do identify the compelling reason, if it's not already too late, there are all the delays involved in terms of reacting to the already delayed recognition, making sure it's safe to merge, and finally merging. This is also where the likelihood of being "less engaged" when riding in the margin comes into play, which also adds to the delay.

Waiting for a compelling reason to ride centerish is like waiting for a compelling reason to put on your seatbelt or helmet. By the time you identify the compelling reason and act on it, it may be too late.

But I've pointed all this out to you before, and you continue to act as if you've never seen it.

No, I just don't think there's anything you've described there that can't be covered by the principle of 'riding as far right as practicable', which has the added bonus of being legal.

Location: Seven Locks Road, Cabin John, MD, just south of where said road crosses under I-495 (Capitol Beltway). I was traveling north, as was the motorist.
Type of location: suburban road
Lane locations: 2-way road, each lane being 11 feet in width (average)
Approximate speeds: I was going 28 mph, motorist was going at least 45 mph (posted speed limit was 35)
Did I swerve left: No - I was about 18 inches from the curb, riding a predictably straight line.
Riding 18 inches from the curb in a lane that is too narrow to be safely shared invites motorists to try to squeeze in and share the lane with you despite it being too narrow to share.

Remember, between you and just about any motorist you encounter, you are the expert on bike/car interactions, not the driver. If you act in a way consistent with believing that the lane is wide enough to be shared (which is what riding 18 inches from the curb is), don't be surprised when ignorant motorists try to share it. You need to be clear with them when the lane is too narrow - move left to a centerish position. Make it clear in no uncertain terms that in order to pass you, they must move at least partially into the adjacent lane, and, if that's not possible at the moment, then they must slow down to your speed. This is much easier to do if you get a mirror and get good with it, especially in terms of reading motorists as they approach from behind, and knowing if you need to do anything to communicate this to them.

No, I just don't think there's anything you've described there that can't be covered by the principle of 'riding as far right as practicable', which has the added bonus of being legal.
First, in almost every legal manifestation of that principle that I've seen, it only applies when faster same direction traffic is present. No one is advocating riding centerish when fsdt is present and it is safe and reasonable (practicable) to move aside.

Second, it may seem practicable to be as far right as the margin, especially if you are accustomed to riding there, but only because of the reduced/blocked sight lines due to riding in the margin.

From your posts I take it you have not read John Franklin's little book, Cyclecraft. Highly recommended. That is the genesis for the centerish default riding position concept.

You see, your words imply that one should not be riding 'default centreish' when there is no compelling reason to do so; that one should identify a reason to be centerish before moving there from the margin. And that's the problem, because from the margin your sight lines are shortened or blocked so that sometimes you can't identify the reason to be centerish because you're not centerish.

Don't be daft. Sightlines are designed for the speed of motor vehicles using the road. The only time sightlines are dangerously shortened is when you're travelling at or above the speed limit (or the suggested signposted speed for a particular corner). In those cases, yes I ride centre of the lane, and I don't let anyone pass me.

And once you do identify the compelling reason, if it's not already too late, there are all the delays involved in terms of reacting to the already delayed recognition, making sure it's safe to merge, and finally merging. This is also where the likelihood of being "less engaged" when riding in the margin comes into play, which also adds to the delay.

Waiting for a compelling reason to ride centerish is like waiting for a compelling reason to put on your seatbelt or helmet. By the time you identify the compelling reason, it may be too late.

LOL. You really are a nervous nelly. You don't get any more surprises riding as far right as practicable (riding in the 'margins', whatever that means, is your term, not mine) than you do riding in the centre, unless you're not paying attention to where you're going, which is possible I guess if you're looking in your mirror all the time for people that might run over you.

The only compelling reason I have experienced for riding in the centre of the lane is if you're riding at the speed limit, or at the ambient speed of traffic, whichever is slower. In heavy traffic where I'm matching speed with it, the only reason I'll ride centre is if I think it'll slow down and I may have to move into the next lane to pass. On country roads, I'll take the 'racing line' over the whole lane on fast decents, and anyone behind me can wait (if they can keep up at all - a bike can corner a lot faster than a car). None of that comes up on you so suddenly that there's no time to react. Otherwise I'll be hovering around the fog line, or in the outer tyre track if it's narrow, and I certainly never change my line for passing vehicles, it is up to them to pass safely. Your assuption that they won't unless you can see for certain that they are is irrational, not pragmatic.

Don't be daft. Sightlines are designed for the speed of motor vehicles using the road. The only time sightlines are dangerously shortened is when you're travelling at or above the speed limit (or the suggested signposted speed for a particular corner). In those cases, yes I ride centre of the lane, and I don't let anyone pass me.



LOL. You really are a nervous nelly. You don't get any more surprises riding as far right as practicable (riding in the 'margins', whatever that means, is your term, not mine) than you do riding in the centre, unless you're not paying attention to where you're going, which is possible I guess if you're looking in your mirror all the time for people that might run over you.

The only compelling reason I have experienced for riding in the centre of the lane is if you're riding at the speed limit, or at the ambient speed of traffic, whichever is slower. In heavy traffic where I'm matching speed with it, the only reason I'll ride centre is if I think it'll slow down and I may have to move into the next lane to pass. On country roads, I'll take the 'racing line' over the whole lane on fast decents, and anyone behind me can wait (if they can keep up at all - a bike can corner a lot faster than a car). None of that comes up on you so suddenly that there's no time to react. Otherwise I'll be hovering around the fog line, or in the outer tyre track if it's narrow, and I certainly never change my line for passing vehicles, it is up to them to pass safely. Your assuption that they won't unless you can see for certain that they are is irrational, not pragmatic.
When you're done with Franklin's book, you should check out Hurst's Urban Cycling. He describes an incident of riding along in the margin (bike lane), getting momentarily distracted by a pretty girl, and crashing into a Mercedes that suddenly pulled out of a blind alley.

Whatever, if you think the sight lines to and from you are good enough when riding in the margins, and your conspicuity is good enough, go for it. In most cases most of the time, you'll be right.

First, in almost every legal manifestation of that principle that I've seen, it only applies when faster same direction traffic is present.

Bulldust. Show me one that mentions anything about other traffic.

I'm most familiar with Queensland, so lets use that as an example.

"129 Keeping to the far left side of a road
(1) A driver on a road (except a multi-lane road or a road with 2 or more
lines of traffic travelling in the same direction as the driver) must drive as
near as practicable to the far left side of the road.
Maximum penalty—20 penalty units.
(2) This section does not apply to the rider of a motorbike."

Note that it a) doesn't specifically mention bicycles - it applies to all road users, and b) it makes no mention of what other vehicles are doing.

Also worth noting;

"247 Riding in a bicycle lane on a road
(1) The rider of a bicycle riding on a length of road with a bicycle lane
designed for bicycles travelling in the same direction as the rider must ride
in the bicycle lane unless it is impracticable to do so.
Maximum penalty—20 penalty units." (my emphasis)

Again, no mention of passing traffic.

When you're done with Franklin's book, you should check out Hurst's Urban Cycling. He describes an incident of riding along in the margin (bike lane), getting momentarily distracted by a pretty girl, and crashing into a Mercedes that suddenly pulled out of a blind alley.

LOL, well no-one's perfect.

I won't say I don't look at pretty girls, but moments of inattention like that can be hazardous wherever you're riding, and it's hardly relevant to the discussion at hand.

Whatever, if you think the sight lines to and from you are good enough when riding in the margins, and your conspicuity is good enough, go for it. In most cases most of the time, you'll be right.

:)

I think I can sum up my lane positioning philosophy most simply as 'As far left as practicable, but far enough right to be safe' (opposite for US). Based on that, I've found riding in the centre of the lane is rarely necessary, and it does not mean I habitually ride in the margins.

LOL, well no-one's perfect.

I won't say I don't look at pretty girls, but moments of inattention like that can be hazardous wherever you're riding, and it's hardly relevant to the discussion at hand.
You're right, the pretty girl part is not relevant. Not sure why you focused on that aspect of it. Riding so far right (in the bike lane) so that he couldn't see the blind alley is what is relevant here. But because he couldn't see the blind alley because he was so far right, he couldn't see that it was a potential hazard and he should be further left. Not to mention that he forgot it was there, despite this being a regularly route for him. My point is if riding centerish was his default habit, then he wouldn't have to rely on seeing the blind alley, or remembering it is there, to ride far enough left to be reasonable safe.


I think I can sum up my lane positioning philosophy most simply as 'As far left as practicable, but far enough right to be safe' (opposite for US). Based on that, I've found riding in the centre of the lane is rarely necessary.Hey, that's exactly my lane positioning philosophy, except it does apply in the U.S. for me, as is. :D

Bulldust. Show me one that mentions anything about other traffic.

I'm most familiar with Queensland, so lets use that as an example.

"129 Keeping to the far left side of a road
(1) A driver on a road (except a multi-lane road or a road with 2 or more
lines of traffic travelling in the same direction as the driver) must drive as
near as practicable to the far left side of the road.
Maximum penalty—20 penalty units.
(2) This section does not apply to the rider of a motorbike."

Note that it a) doesn't specifically mention bicycles - it applies to all road users, and b) it makes no mention of what other vehicles are doing.

Also worth noting;

"247 Riding in a bicycle lane on a road
(1) The rider of a bicycle riding on a length of road with a bicycle lane
designed for bicycles travelling in the same direction as the rider must ride
in the bicycle lane unless it is impracticable to do so.
Maximum penalty—20 penalty units." (my emphasis)

Again, no mention of passing traffic.

I've never looked at the Queensland laws. :rolleyes: Sorry, but this is U.S. centric.


Operation on Roadway

21202. (a) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at that time shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except under any of the following situations:

(1) When overtaking and passing another bicycle or vehicle proceeding in the same direction.

(2) When preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.

(3) When reasonably necessary to avoid conditions (including, but not limited to, fixed or moving objects, vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians, animals, surface hazards, or substandard width lanes) that make it unsafe to continue along the right-hand curb or edge, subject to the provisions of Section 21656. For purposes of this section, a "substandard width lane" is a lane that is too narrow for a bicycle and a vehicle to travel safely side by side within the lane.

(4) When approaching a place where a right turn is authorized.

http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21202.htm

Note that if there is no "other traffic moving in the same direction at that time", then the cyclist cannot be "moving at a speed less than" it, and the restriction does not apply. It only applies if same direction traffic is moving faster than the cyclist; the traffic has to be present for that to be true.

Note that if there is no "other traffic moving in the same direction at that time", then the cyclist cannot be "moving at a speed less than" it, and the restriction does not apply. It only applies if same direction traffic is moving faster than the cyclist; the traffic has to be present for that to be true.

With no traffic present, I'd interpret that as 'travelling less than the speed limit', which is the speed one would assume the traffic would be travelling at if it was present, and pragmatically speaking, eventually other traffic is pretty much inevitable. But I agree you could interpret it your way, I just don't see much benefit in constantly moving in and out of the lane to allow traffic to pass. I much prefer, and I consider it safer, holding a steady, predictable line.

Riding 18 inches from the curb in a lane that is too narrow to be safely shared invites motorists to try to squeeze in and share the lane with you despite it being too narrow to share.

I don't dispute this one bit as it happened to me many many times back when I was uncomfortable with riding further out into the lane. But what about the motorists that do drift across the double yellow to pass you but still pass too close when you are riding closely to the curb? If they were willing to cross the line in the first place, and yet still pass you close enough to squeeze you, then I don't see how being further to the left would make them give you more room in the first place.
The reason I bring this up is because it has happened to me plenty of times before, and still continues to happen to me from time to time even when there is a 30" shoulder and I am riding to the left of the fog line by more than 20" sometimes.
Sometimes, there are motorists who think it is their duty to teach us "ignorant" cyclists a lesson, even if it kills us to learn it.