With no traffic present, I'd interpret that as 'travelling less than the speed limit', which is the speed one would assume the traffic would be travelling at if it was present, and pragmatically speaking, eventually other traffic is pretty much inevitable. But I agree you could interpret it your way, I just don't see much benefit in constantly moving in and out of the lane to allow traffic to pass. I much prefer, and I consider it safer, holding a steady, predictable line.

There's no mention of "speed limit" in the laws HH quoted. There is mention of "normal speed of traffic" which can actually be faster or slower than the speed limit. Either way, the important point is "normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at that time." Absent of other traffic, a cyclist is free to ride in the left (or right in your case) lane if he wanted to even though he's going 5mph on a 55mph road. He's also free to use the left tire track in a wide outside lane and only move over further right when faster traffic approaches.

I don't dispute this one bit as it happened to me many many times back when I was uncomfortable with riding further out into the lane. But what about the motorists that do drift across the double yellow to pass you but still pass too close when you are riding closely to the curb? If they were willing to cross the line in the first place, and yet still pass you close enough to squeeze you, then I don't see how being further to the left would make them give you more room in the first place.
The reason I bring this up is because it has happened to me plenty of times before, and still continues to happen to me from time to time even when there is a 30" shoulder and I am riding to the left of the fog line by more than 20" sometimes.
Sometimes, there are motorists who think it is their duty to teach us "ignorant" cyclists a lesson, even if it kills us to learn it.
It is my experience that once motorists are resigned to having to at least encroach into the adjacent lane (be it same-direction or opposite even across a double-yellow) in order to pass, they are much less likely to pass too closely. There are exceptions and there are certainly those hell-bent on teaching us "ignorant" cyclists a lesson. In the end, these techniques are about improving odds. If moving further left reduces close passes from, say, 75 out of 100 to 1 out of 100, that's a huge improvement, not to mention the primary reasons for moving left in the first place: improved sight lines and buffer space for dealing with potential cross-traffic hazards in front of you. Check out the 11 cyclists crash into a car thread (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=338160) for the latest example of what riding too far right is likely to have caused.

I don't dispute this one bit as it happened to me many many times back when I was uncomfortable with riding further out into the lane. But what about the motorists that do drift across the double yellow to pass you but still pass too close when you are riding closely to the curb? If they were willing to cross the line in the first place, and yet still pass you close enough to squeeze you, then I don't see how being further to the left would make them give you more room in the first place.
The reason I bring this up is because it has happened to me plenty of times before, and still continues to happen to me from time to time even when there is a 30" shoulder and I am riding to the left of the fog line by more than 20" sometimes.
Sometimes, there are motorists who think it is their duty to teach us "ignorant" cyclists a lesson, even if it kills us to learn it.

20" to the left of the fog line is still leaving a lot of lane to your left that motorists are likely to try to squeeze into to avoid the hassle of changing lanes/crossing over the centerline. I didn't always but I'm now in the habit of positioning myself such that if I'm going to be in the lane at all, I'm in the center of the lane not leaving any room to my left or right for even the closest pass to be executed without crossing into an adjacent lane. This forces the motorist to make the decision whether to stop behind me or deal with changing lanes/crossing the centerline and all that that entails. This forced decision eliminates almost all close passes in my experience. It's been a long time since I was passed dangerously close at high speed (a pass that prompted my all or nothing lane positioning strategy).

When I move over in a lane or to the right of the fog line, I will only do so if I can move far enough over that I am ok with the distance between myself and the motorist assuming that the motorist will not move at all into an adjacent lane. If I'm not, I stay put and let them either fully commit to the pass or wait behind me.

Riding 18 inches from the curb in a lane that is too narrow to be safely shared invites motorists to try to squeeze in and share the lane with you despite it being too narrow to share.... You need to be clear with them when the lane is too narrow - move left to a centerish position. Make it clear in no uncertain terms that in order to pass you, they must move at least partially into the adjacent lane, and, if that's not possible at the moment, then they must slow down to your speed. This is much easier to do if you get a mirror and get good with it, especially in terms of reading motorists as they approach from behind, and knowing if you need to do anything to communicate this to them.

Agreed on all points. I learned from that experience, no doubt (it happened a while ago), and now I take the middle of said lane. It has resulted in some other unfortunate incidents with motorists (there's a lot of money in this part of Montgomery County, and they feel that the roads are their exclusive playground), but I stick to the center of the lane now.

And I've also learned how to smile and wave at their extended middle fingers. :D

Agreed on all points. I learned from that experience, no doubt (it happened a while ago), and now I take the middle of said lane. It has resulted in some other unfortunate incidents with motorists (there's a lot of money in this part of Montgomery County, and they feel that the roads are their exclusive playground), but I stick to the center of the lane now.

And I've also learned how to smile and wave at their extended middle fingers. :D
:beer:

That's the attitude. Congratulations, you get it.

It's not about being humble.

It's about the cascade of really simplistic posts/comments/assumptions/assertions that genec has made in this thread.
The only cascade I see is the one of bullshlt coming from your posts.

The only reason you keep showing up around here is your Get Out Of Jail Free card.

Follow Groucho Marx's lead: "I'd never join any club that would have me as a member."

What, specifically, do you think is bullsh|t Pete?



Sorry, you'll have to explain that. I don't understand what you mean.
Like I thought, a bloody coward.

How does asking you to back up your "bullsh|t" claim make me a coward? Frankly, it's cowardly of you not to back up your claim.

How does asking you to explain what you mean by:

"The only reason you keep showing up around here is your Get Out Of Jail Free card.

Why don't you tell everyone about that little detail?"

There is no little detail. I can only speculate that you're just making something up and/or making yet another assumption.

Why can't you answer the question Pete?
Weenie. Gutless.

Look at your avatar. Substitute, "No Pete Fagerlin." That about sums up your attitude.

You probably love to crash other people's parties uninvited, too.

Wad.

Ok, you're just being a goof. Got it.

So much for your heartfelt and unsolicited message, eh Pete?

"Apology

Pete,

I have said some things to you in the past that I want to apologize for. I have disrespected you. Nobody asked me to do this, I just wanted to. I can't remember everything I've ever said, but from now on I will respect you publicly and privately.

Thanks for your attention in this matter.

Pete Clark
Stone Mountain, GA"

Funny stuff!



I can only assume that you're drunk-posting again.
:D

You have spoken my case quite eloquently. I tried the olive branch a long time ago, but you lack the capacity. (Still funny you held on to that PM so long.)

You pretended not to know what I was talking about when I mentioned "get out of jail card." What a bold-faced liar you are, Pete. I guess for you, not being caught in a lie is the same as telling the truth.

Wow, this thread is amazing. What the hell are you people talking about?

You guys have mastered the art of argument so thoroughly, an untrained civilian such as myself can't even follow the moves taking place. I stand in awe.

get out of jail free = monopoly

Wow, this thread is amazing. What the hell are you people talking about?

You guys have mastered the art of argument so thoroughly, an untrained civilian such as myself can't even follow the moves taking place. I stand in awe.
you've nailed it. that's why this thread was moved to the VC section

:roflmao:


:beer:

I've never been clipped by a close passer. The only significant spill I've had that I can remember was a solo spill, and entirely my own fault. I was looking over my shoulder to change lanes, didn't scan conditions ahead first, and ran into a rain grate parallel to the curb. The bike stayed upright, I did a superchicken impersonation awkwardly flying over the bars, losing a substantial amount of forearm skin in the process.

The humiliation was worse than the pain, as it occurred adjacent to busy sidewalk restaurant tables.

You and me both.

If you find out what LBM means by "get out of jail card" let me know.

Thanks.
Why should anyone let you know about something you already know about?

You're playing these folks, Pete.

The silly denials are so pathetic, I'm not going to give you an opportunity to make a fool out of people anymore by doing what you do best: bu!!sh!tting.

One last comment, and I'll quit: Pete, you should show more respect to the one who authored this website. You haven't the guts to open your own website to free commentary, but you barge into other people's websites and show your butt, as if it were a pretty thing.

Wow, this thread is amazing. What the hell are you people talking about?

You guys have mastered the art of argument so thoroughly, an untrained civilian such as myself can't even follow the moves taking place. I stand in awe.

been away from BF for about 2 months and just got the chance to check back in again. Nothing seems to have changed in here. Same mindless diatribes and arguments with endless claims of elucidation from the remarkable information :rolleyes: being exchanged in this forum. It does, however, have great entertainment value for those of us who enjoy bicycling centered Orwellian doublespeak.

As far as this kind of information having any intrinsic, pragmatic value in the real world of cycling I would say riding one's bicycle for the same amount of time that some of these posters spend on line would not only make one an extremely practiced and competent cyclist but also an extremely fit rider.;)

been away from BF for about 2 months and just got the chance to check back in again. Nothing seems to have changed in here. Same mindless diatribes and arguments with endless claims of elucidation from the remarkable information :rolleyes: being exchanged in this forum. It does, however, have great entertainment value for those of us who enjoy bicycling centered Orwellian doublespeak.

As far as this kind of information having any intrinsic, pragmatic value in the real world of cycling I would say riding one's bicycle for the same amount of time that some of these posters spend on line would not only make one an extremely practiced and competent cyclist but also an extremely fit rider.;)

Provided of course that one could ride a bike and also be "in the office" at the same time. Bear in mind that some posters may be responding between customers, or between tasks. It's awful hard to ride a bike in the same way.
Ever notice how little "traffic" is here on weekends?

Now if they just turned my chair into a stationary bike... :D

Dang it's too late to change my vote:( Just wednesday it happened :eek:. After being stopped at an intersection and being first in line in the left wheel of what is now a straight/right turn lane I got tagged. Going north light went green I crossed and moved more center. Lady and her pals behind me laid on the horn but it they could easily go around into that big other lane and the right lane wasn't big enough for hte moth of us.
Continuing to honk but changed lanes so I thought good riddence. Before I could complete that though they came back onto the lane unexpectedly early and quickly proceeding to bump my bars then passed me slammed on the brakes just in front of me which would have probably caused me to flip if I didnt' have all my gear in back. They then proceeded to screach off down the road blowing a stop sign. Oh wells. Just continued up the road like everyday and proceeded home keeping a watch to make sure they didnt' come back around for another go.

First time in years anything like that ever happened. Used to happen alot when I rode past a few colleges in connecticut.

I've never been clipped by a close passer. I have had people threaten me on purpose with various aggressive moves and things but never was I hugging the curb when those things happened. And a few times I have had people pass me uncomfortably closely. In those cases I moved a little more to my right (yes, closer to the curb! Amazing how there's no cars running you over way over there!) and that seemed to work.

Two times - although once was by a bus turning right as I was doing a track stand (not sure if that counts - I was actually "pushed" over, not clipped, and only felt like my space was invaded (I was not hurt)), and once by a truck rear-view mirror I was fundamentally clipped directly on my left shoulder while 'just riding along", and down I went... I know it was his mirror because he stopped and told me while talking incessantly about how he had only hit one other thing in his life - a dog! Hoped the dog was ok, and he can see I'm ok, he said, and I agreed because I didn't want to hear any more drivel.

I also have been "hit" twice, once when I was a kid, but this is about clipping... ever been doored?

By the way, the truck involved was a Fjord F-series of some sort...

Some years ago I was passed by a car full of teenagers. This was while I was riding fast downhill. The passenger opened the car door just as the car was passing me. I went flyling over the handlebars as the car drove away with all of the occupants laughing.

I oppose 3 foot passing laws because I think they reinforce widespread notions out there about the inherent dangers of cycling on roads. I think they bring the wrong kind of attention to cycling in terms of promoting cycling.

I realize this thread is very old and Helmet Head has been banned, but I'll comment anyway. I do not understand his reasoning at all. What message does this law send, and is that message untrue?

- sends message to motorists that they must be careful passing and leave lots of space (I think that's a good message, being close passed is dangerous)
- sends message to cyclists that the law is on their side when they are assuming safe lane position as a vehicular cyclist should, and thus makes them feel more confident acting VC. How is this a bad thing?

In fact, I had never heard of this proposed law but I think it's great. It should be the law of the land everywhere. Why isn't it?

yes, heads twisted attempts to produce an argument that minimum passing clearance laws would be a detriment to cyclists was very, very far fetched.

antibicyclist bias and weak advocacy efforts keeps this law from being emplaced across the states,

also the work of obstructionists to safer bicycling conditions like HH and JF and the like minded minions of the militant VC.

I realize this thread is very old and Helmet Head has been banned, but I'll comment anyway. I do not understand his reasoning at all. What message does this law send, and is that message untrue?
I oppose 3 foot passing laws, but to be honest I think the reasoning quoted and attributed to HH is rather weak. I think better reasons are as follows:

1. We already have laws that require passing "at a safe distance", they just need to be enforced. Changing the "at a safe distance" to "at least 3 feet" isn't, by itself, going to start to lead to fewer close passes by motorists.

2. There may be conditions, such as a high speed differential on a windy day, where 3 feet isn't enough for a safe pass. Also, in dense city traffic a cyclist may wish to carefully pass stopped traffic at low speed at a distance less than 3 feet. When traffic starts moving again, they would be "frozen" by the 3 foot law and unable to pass the cyclist.

One change I would support to existing laws require passing "at a safe distance" is increased penalties for violators.

I oppose 3 foot passing laws, but to be honest I think the reasoning quoted and attributed to HH is rather weak. I think better reasons are as follows:

1. We already have laws that require passing "at a safe distance", they just need to be enforced. Changing the "at a safe distance" to "at least 3 feet" isn't, by itself, going to start to lead to fewer close passes by motorists.

2. There may be conditions, such as a high speed differential on a windy day, where 3 feet isn't enough for a safe pass. Also, in dense city traffic a cyclist may wish to carefully pass stopped traffic at low speed at a distance less than 3 feet. When traffic starts moving again, they would be "frozen" by the 3 foot law and unable to pass the cyclist.

One change I would support to existing laws require passing "at a safe distance" is increased penalties for violators.

Define "a safe distance?"

If a motorist doesn't hit you, it was safe, right?

So a motorist can pass within inches even if they are moving at 50MPH while you are moving at 8 MPH up a hill?

The three foot law defines a minimum. "at least" 3 feet.

I have to wonder what is wrong with "freezing traffic" in your downtown scenario... :rolleyes: If the cyclist is moving, traffic is not frozen... any more than it would be behind a slow moving street cleaner; its all just traffic.

Imagine my surprise when I was hit on the shoulder by the mirror of the truck going by me. The driver stopped at a red light just ahead and we had a lively debate about whether or not I should be on the road. I suggested we go find a local law-enforcement authority to clear up the issue. Oddly, the driver of the truck didn't seem to want to clear up the issue in this manner.
The city I live in proudly calls itself home to the United States Olympic Training Center and numerous high-altitude cycling schools. Based on how we're treated here, I'd hate to see what it's like for other people who ride bikes in other cities.

I was brushed by a car a couple of years ago in St. John's, Newfoundland. I was riding about 35 km/h on Elizabeth Avenue between New Cove and Torbay Roads (a four lane street with strip malls along it) about 3 feet from the curb and a car driver was so afraid of going anywhere near the centre lane of the road that she thought she would rather clip me with her mirror instead. Fortunately she was driving a Saturn else she would have had a big dent where I punched her rear quarter panel.

In Philadelphia where my brother and his friends use a bike for their primary transportation, there is a growing trend to carry a mini baseball bat for such occurrences. Drivers who pass dangerously close to the cyclist receive an alerting blow to the quarter panel. Drivers who then stop and get out to antagonize the cyclist over the incident receive a blow to the face.

so far, i've been lucky - but there have certainly been some close calls (u-hauls coming close, RVs, etc).

i've certainly been pushed around by the wind-displacement of large vehicles, but usually you can hear them coming and prepare a bit for it.

Nothing yet, but I've only been riding for about a month. The closest call was from idiot lady opening her driver door and me almost ramming into it. It was a very ****ty moment. Run into her door or quickly swerve into the lane where there is usually traffic. No time to look back so I swerved into the lane. Luckily, there were no cars behind me.

I got clipped by 4 punk kids a month or so ago. They thought it would be funny to swerve in my direction and yell out the window at me. He swerved to close and his mirror hit my handle bar. i jumped off and didn't fall but, my bike ended up in a ditch. I was so pissed i chased him down to the next corner where they stopped at a Wilson farms. When the kid got out of his car i slugged him right in the face. He went down and out, then turned to the other 3 kids in the car and ask if they thought it was funny?. Not a one of them moved or said anything. I then road my bike home to ice down my hand.

I've been clipped by NYC cabs in rush hour traffic a few times and ended up with paint on my handlebars/knuckles. I don't think any of them were malicious; things just get hectic.

It's out in the 'burbs that harassment's really an issue, at least in my experience.

I have been "brushed" from behind a few times. I ride elbow to elbow with rush hour traffic, often splitting lanes between cars, vans, trucks. Luckily, modern side view mirrors collapse inward easily. Never been knocked down tho. Don't feel that it was ever malicious, just tight quarters caused mostly by me.