Electric Bikes - Fundacyclists

I apologize for the rant, but this is something that has been bugging me for a while and I need to vent. I'd also love to hear some opinions.

I used to ride a bike everywhere. For a couple of years, my car sat uninsured and unused. Stuff happened (new job, new girlfriend, new hobby - smoking) and I quit riding and started driving again. I shook myself out of it a few years later (last year) and got back on the bike - it sucked! I gave a half-hearted effort and the bike eventually started collecting dust again.

In the meantime, I had become interested in personal electric transportation, namely scooters, and had a couple of those. I used them for short trips to the store and post office and stuff, but longer trips were still done in the car. I find that there's something so Jetson's-cool about electric transportation, so I decided to get into the electric business! I got a screaming deal on a bunch of electric-assist bikes (the scooters aren't legal here) and started the business.

Long story short: I now ride the electric assist bike 20-30 km/day, generally only using the motor to help on hills or if I'm totally bagged, and have lost weight and am happy, not smoking and healthy, and using my car about 90% less. I've even taken the old-fashioned bike ;) out a few times and can manage quite well now. I'll be putting some knobbies on it and heading to the trails this fall.

Here's my rant: There is a group of people I call fundacyclists. They scoff and deride the electric bike and crack jokes when I come into the bike shop like "We don't fix motorcycles here" - yeah, thanks - I just wanted to drop some dough on some new BIKE tires and stuff. The bikes I have use all standard bike stuff (26" rims, 1 1/8 headtube, etc...) and are made by one of the biggest bike companies in the world - they are good quality bikes that happen to be electric.

My friend has a theory about the fundacyclists: While they may ride around naked at Critical Mass and try and promote cycling, they don't really want people to ride bikes. Here's why: If everyone rode, they wouldn't have anyone to feel superior to! They enjoy their sense of smugness and self-congratulatory eco-friendliness and if people started to adopt bikes/electric bikes/electric scooters/Segways/??? they wouldn't have anyone to put down.

I'm sorry if I sound bitter, but I get pretty fed up with this kind of attitude. Almost every house has a bike in it, but how many people ride? If even 2% of those people would ride 10% more on an electric bike, isn't that a step in the right direction? The customers I've sold bikes to have bought them for the following reasons: Selling the car, selling second car, sick of the bus, don't want to be too sweaty and tired when they get to work, want a second bike for hauling groceries, want a second bike for trips in hilly areas, want to be able to speed up their commute, and on and on. In all these instances, these people are using their bike for transportation, and generally, using it instead of their car. I'm sorry, but this is bad, why? Giving people attitude and lip for choosing an electric bike over their car helps who? Jackasses.

Whew...thanks for listening :beer:

Mekki, ride what you like. Don’t let those ‘fundacyclists’ spoil the experience. I will happily accept your wheel one day. And remember to occasionally laugh at yourself, too.

:beer:

Mekki

1. Ride what you like.
2. I don't know if electric is a good deal or not. It's better for the city, but if you figger all the ineffeciencies in generating electricity and storeing it in a battery... is it really better or just an alternative?
3. Does it matter? You are riding what you like. Your back in shape. And you have a business that you like.

Joe

Originally posted by mekki
Giving people attitude and lip for choosing an electric bike over their car helps who? Jackasses.

Screw you and your damn electric bike! ;) <kidding, of course>

Hey, ride what works for you, and the rest can just deal with it. There are always going to be some jerks in this world - even cyclists! Ignore them, and have fun!!!

BTW - great idea on the business! :thumbup:

Hey, how about a pic or two of your electric-assist cycles???

ThanX!!!! :)

Personally, if you came into my shop, I'd probably try to take your bike for a spin because I mostly agree with you about getting people out of cars and onto a bike. And if Electric's can do that, great.
There was a movie with Peter O'Toole, "Creator." He is a scientist and is constantly talking about"The Big Picture" and not being narrow minded. Often, it seems, that when someone finds a solution that works for them, they become narrow minded and don't see the overall benefit of an alternative method.

But my question is: Why are you buying tires and goodies from a bike shop?
Why aren't you buying wholesale from distributors? It would save you a lot of grief.

This is the same bunch of people who consider that if someone is not dressed "appropriately" (according to their standards) they must be some dumbo.

I frequently ride in non-fashionable clothing on errands or when I just don't feel like taking the time to get "dolled up." This especially happens when I jump on my mtn/beater bike with a pair of Levis on and a sweatshirt.

Then I seem to get pretty much ignored or looked down on by certain riders, most notably by those "team riders" - those all set up in their matching Jerseys who are showing off all their stuff to impress others (I don't really know who gets impressed, though. I don't.)

And, I most likely have more miles under my belt than the whole bunch of them together.

But, that is only a very few folks. Almost all bikers are tolerant of others, and, generally, are amongst the very nicest of folks you might meet. It is just a few "Fundacyclists" or whatever who seem to spoil the barrel a bit. So, take heart. Most folks on BF would be tolerant of a variety of bikes. Our recent survey shows that about 90% of those responding had or have a HUffy (*Mart or Dept store bike), for example.

Anyway, anything that gets you more exercise is ok in my book.

Cyclists come in a bunch of varieties. Ken Kiefer has a few entertaining pages on his WWW site where he details the different categories of cyclists. Here are a few of my own categories:


The Non-Waving Snob. This guy (an it is usually a guy) rides around on a very expensive racing bike, decked out in team gear. For him cycling is about owning cool expensive, stuff not riding a bike. He is quite knowldegable about the latest in componentry. He views kids on BMX bikes as an annoyance and seniors on three speeds as quaint and charming but not really cyclists. In fact many folks riding bikes don't qualify as cyclists because they aren't like him. He generally feels superior to all of these people for some unexplainable reason. Note that the Non-Waving Snob comes in two flavors; Road and MTB and for some reason each looks down on the other as well as everyone else.

The Racer. This person rides a bike primarily for the competition. He may be a criterium rider, a triathlete, or a road racer. He works very hard, has a trainer in the basement that he rides during the winter, and is generally a fair weather rider. These guys tell great stories and are generally alot of fun to be around. They use whatever technology is going to make them faster and more comfortable, but are very practical about it. Most of them just don't "get-it" when it comes to vehicular cycling. Why ride in the rain and snow, when it is so much easier to take the car ?
The Fitness Fred
Rides a bike to stay fit, or lose weight, but doesn't really race and is not competitive. This guy can be spotted riding in running attire, because most are runners as well. This is the guy bike paths were made for. They ride almost any kind of bike.
The Green Guy
These folks ride bikes as a political statement and view themselves as part of the "counter-culture". They will be the ones riding the recycled 10-speeds, in their recycled jeans. Many are very vocal about the "environment" and lots of them are zealots. They will bend your ear for hours about odd subjects like "bio-dieasel" (running cars on vegetable oil) and compact flourecent light bulbs. They are generally not interested in fitness and ride the bus alot too.
The Commuter
Rides his bike to get from place to place. These people do what they do for a variety of reasons; they enjoy pedaling, prefer simplicity, some view a car as an extravagance. These are generally all weather riders with unfashionable, but practical bikes. They can be spotted because of the fenders and bikes covered in reflective tape or lighting. They differ from the Green Guy in that they don't talk alot, the just pedal and leave the evangelizing to someone else.
This is the group most knowlegable about and interested in bicycle traffic safety and fair use of the roads. These are sometimes called vehicular cyclists.

I am a Fitness Fred and sometimes Commuter. I suspect your troubles are with the Non-Waving Snobs. They are to be more pitied than despised. Ride your bike and be happy.

Dan

Recommended reading: late Nobel laureate Richard P. Feynman, "What Do You Care What Other People Think?"

To the extent that they actually displace trips in larger, energy-hungry motor vehicles, I am very solidly in favor of electric scooters, neighborhood electric vehicles, etc.

I know what Denver means about cycling attire snobs. Every weekend, I encounter plenty of "appropriately dressed" people on late model $2000 bicycles. Most are friendly; some are aloof. If I am cycling for fun, I do wear genuine cycling shorts, but I wear a white or bright orange T-shirt as often as my Bianchi - Mercatoni jersey. If I am cycling for transportation, I wear ordinary street clothes.

---- Fashion Police fugitive

I'd say you've got the right attitude (and I'm somewhere between a racer & a fitness Fred - without the pro strip). I'm sure you're machines would help outt he likes of the lady I passed last night who was clearly not enjoying the effort of pushing here bike up one of the many local hills.

If the electric doodad encourages more like her to get out and actually allows them to enjoy themselves, the world will be a healthier place (and I'll be less of a freak for regular cycling).

Thanks for all the kind words :)

Yeah, thicker skin and a "Screw You" attitude are a good idea and I generally don't let these folks get to me, but I had another idiot look down his nose at me and sneer about "cheating" yesterday - do you think he yells that to everyone in a car that he passes?

Surprisingly, I've found Green Guys to be the worst, particularly the luddite subset that believes any innovation beyond a 1972 Peugeot is profligate and wasteful. They don't want to see less cars, they want to see no cars. Commuters are a mixed bag - some are great and "get it" while others are openly hostile. Screw the Non-Wavers - who cares what they think?

I had someone ask me what the downsides of the bike were the other day. After taking about the weight and what a drag it is to fix flats (internally geared wheel), it struck me that the crap I get from other cyclists is the one thing I dislike about the bike. To have to pull up to a red light and perhaps hear some self-righteous idiot make a rude comment like "I guess you don't like excercise" gets tiresome and frustrating. I always offer rides, but these folks (a fairly even male/female mix) already know it all and always decline.

As far as energy goes joeprim, the battery has a capacity of about 250W (or a 100W bulb burning for ~2.5 hrs). Not that much really and that energy has to come from somewhere, either PowerBars and cabbage if you're processing it, or hydroelectric, as it is here.

The fashion thing is very true - these bikes are Euro-style city bikes with fenders, chainguard, etc... and are really more about transportation than sport. Frankly, the idea of donning a special costume to ride to work or the store is a little weird to me and I have enjoyed cruising around in a full suit, pretending I'm a happy Dutch guy commuting to the clog factory in flat, flat Amsterdam :D

And heres another one for you - you guys on your sub-20 lb road bikes don't know nothin! Try riding a 63 lb bike around and tell me who the tough guy is, eh? :p

Here's a pic for ya bac!

http://www.voltage-ev.com/images/products/merida/leftside.jpg

Interesting, with its sprung saddle AND suspension seat post.

On the Dutch note, there is a traditional Dutch style of assisted bike that uses a 25cc engine rather than the electric drive yours has. They are not sneered upon, in fact old examples are real collectors items. They are somewhere halfway between a moped and a bicycle.

This is way too flash for the Netherlands, it would be nicked in an instant.

That's a really beautiful bike! You know, speaking as a green guy/commuter, green guys can be just about the worst, (except for bike messengers, they should ALL be shot.) But with any "subculture", you're going to have buttholes who would rather namedrop and look down on their OWN PEOPLE than do anything creative or proactive. I can't think of any lifestyle choice that is an exception, except for Superheroes.
If I ever see you on the bus, I swear I won't talk your ear off about Mumia Abu Jamal and Geodesic domes, though!
"There but for the grace of God go I"

Originally posted by DanFromDetroit
Cyclists come in a bunch of varieties. Ken Kiefer has a few entertaining pages on his WWW site where he details the different categories of cyclists. Here are a few of my own categories:


The Non-Waving Snob. This guy (an it is usually a guy) rides around on a very expensive racing bike, decked out in team gear. For him cycling is about owning cool expensive, stuff not riding a bike. He is quite knowldegable about the latest in componentry. He views kids on BMX bikes as an annoyance and seniors on three speeds as quaint and charming but not really cyclists. In fact many folks riding bikes don't qualify as cyclists because they aren't like him. He generally feels superior to all of these people for some unexplainable reason. Note that the Non-Waving Snob comes in two flavors; Road and MTB and for some reason each looks down on the other as well as everyone else.

The Racer. This person rides a bike primarily for the competition. He may be a criterium rider, a triathlete, or a road racer. He works very hard, has a trainer in the basement that he rides during the winter, and is generally a fair weather rider. These guys tell great stories and are generally alot of fun to be around. They use whatever technology is going to make them faster and more comfortable, but are very practical about it. Most of them just don't "get-it" when it comes to vehicular cycling. Why ride in the rain and snow, when it is so much easier to take the car ?
The Fitness Fred
Rides a bike to stay fit, or lose weight, but doesn't really race and is not competitive. This guy can be spotted riding in running attire, because most are runners as well. This is the guy bike paths were made for. They ride almost any kind of bike.
The Green Guy
These folks ride bikes as a political statement and view themselves as part of the "counter-culture". They will be the ones riding the recycled 10-speeds, in their recycled jeans. Many are very vocal about the "environment" and lots of them are zealots. They will bend your ear for hours about odd subjects like "bio-dieasel" (running cars on vegetable oil) and compact flourecent light bulbs. They are generally not interested in fitness and ride the bus alot too.
The Commuter
Rides his bike to get from place to place. These people do what they do for a variety of reasons; they enjoy pedaling, prefer simplicity, some view a car as an extravagance. These are generally all weather riders with unfashionable, but practical bikes. They can be spotted because of the fenders and bikes covered in reflective tape or lighting. They differ from the Green Guy in that they don't talk alot, the just pedal and leave the evangelizing to someone else.
This is the group most knowlegable about and interested in bicycle traffic safety and fair use of the roads. These are sometimes called vehicular cyclists.

I am a Fitness Fred and sometimes Commuter. I suspect your troubles are with the Non-Waving Snobs. They are to be more pitied than despised. Ride your bike and be happy.

Dan

I am a fitness fred, and also a commuter, you also hit the profile of the Non - waving snob dead on, I see a few of them daily.

The Non-Waving Snob. This guy (an it is usually a guy) rides around on a very expensive racing bike

Ahhh......as a roadie, and as one who rarely waves, I'd just like to point out a couple of things:

Riding a road bike requires that you put a decent percentage of your weight on the bars, and also requires that you lean forward. Neither make removing a hand from the bars while riding easy.

Also, since I'm usually riding at anywhere from 16-40 mph, I'm really paying more attention to the road, motorists, etc, and not to people standing on the sidewalk waving. If I don't see you, sorry-it just wasn't anything I was looking for.

Continuing on a slightly different tangent, you really don't want to be waving your arm in the breeze when you're riding along at 40 mph. This creates what us engineers call a "dynamic nightmare". I'd rather not wave than do a face-plant.

In conclusion, roadies do wave, but usually just our fingers. Notice that a common roadie wave amounts to little more than lifting a finger or two from the hoods, if he is riding in that fashion. If in the drops, a roadie will never wave.

There needs to be a list of Cycling Commandments posted on this forum for all to see. At the very top of my list would be: "Thou shalt exhibit tolerance for all riders, regardless of their chosen ride."

Originally posted by mightypudge
There needs to be a list of Cycling Commandments posted on this forum for all to see. At the very top of my list would be: "Thou shalt exhibit tolerance for all riders, regardless of their chosen ride."

A wise man by the name of Jon Postel (one of the original pioneers of what we now call the Internet) had often been fond of saying, "Be liberal in what you accept, and conservative in what you send." [RFC1122]

"Surprisingly, I've found Green Guys to be the worst, particularly the luddite subset that believes any innovation beyond a 1972 Peugeot is profligate and wasteful."

Urrgh. I ride a '73 Peugeot. Either I'm prolifigate and wasteful, or I'm part of a luddite subset. Not much of a choice. Haven't found much to equal it, either.

Weird ride. I don't know if you'd get a wave, but you'd certainly get a second look. Maybe up to three. But I'd look more if you were riding a '72 PX10.

I was visiting in Rome. Daily on the way to the internet point I'd pass by the Aprilia showroom - superlative motorcycles, but of no especial interest. Then, one day there it was, a revelation, an Aprilia Enjoy electric bicycle, utterly brilliant in concept, sophisticated in design, outfitted in exquisite componentry - an almost unapproachable, inaccesible Italian beauty (to think hitherto there had been merely Sophia Loren, Mona Lisa, Beatrice). Alas, a love to remain unconsumated. I was living in Amsterdam where one simply cannot have a good bike - it would be stolen; indeed my lock was worth more than my last "fiets." Now, here in Florida, a hybrid is most suitable for my needs, but I can remember, and long, and dream - imagine, the latest Aprilia Enjoy prototype is powered by a fuel cell.

Originally posted by Poguemahone
Urrgh. I ride a '73 Peugeot. Either I'm prolifigate and wasteful, or I'm part of a luddite subset. Not much of a choice. Haven't found much to equal it, either.
[/B]

oops:eek:

Really though, I have nothing against 1973 Peugeots - I'm sure they are lovely bikes and all. Perhaps that was a poor example - do you think I can take the piss outta those old timey bike riding guys with the big front wheel and the funny pants without stepping on someone's toes? :p

Originally posted by mekki
oops:eek:

Really though, I have nothing against 1973 Peugeots - I'm sure they are lovely bikes and all. Perhaps that was a poor example - do you think I can take the piss outta those old timey bike riding guys with the big front wheel and the funny pants without stepping on someone's toes? :p


Heh... watch out for the penny farthing crowd. They're an easily perturbed bunch. :D

Seriously though, nothing wrong with old bikes. I think I read it somewhere that today's challenge in the bike industry is to recreate the ride and road feel of a good oldschool 531 frame but make it 2 lbs. lighter using your material of choice.

Originally posted by robtfink
...Aprilia Enjoy electric bicycle, utterly brilliant in concept, sophisticated in design, outfitted in exquisite componentry - an almost unapproachable, inaccesible Italian beauty (to think hitherto there had been merely Sophia Loren, Mona Lisa, Beatrice).

Ah yes, the Aprilia...she really is pretty. And you know what? She's made by the same company as makes our bikes, Merida! The powertrain on the Enjoy has an extra 70W of juice but is identical in the way it amplifies the riders input and drives through the rear gear cluster.

I'm not holding my breath for the fuel cell version, but it would sure be neat...

Here's a pic of the Enjoy - enjoy!

http://www.voltage-ev.com/images/products/merida/enjoy.jpg

"Really though, I have nothing against 1973 Peugeots - I'm sure they are lovely bikes and all. "

Ah, it's cool. You can poke fun at me all you want. I actually like the little electric powered scooter/bike thingee you ride, I think it's pretty cool. It beats all to heck those little two stroke gas powered scooter things kids around here ride sometimes-- those things pollute like a city bus and sound like amplified hornets... I think they're all powered by recycled weed-whacker engines. Oops, my green guy side is showing.

One of the advantages to the older frames is, that at the higher end, they were often hand built by skilled craftsmen, and you can find 'em cheap if you have some idea what you're looking for. Try buying a hand built frame nowadays, and unless you're a former Enron executive, your pocketbook is likely to be hurting. I'd ride a Seven if I could afford one, but even then, I'm not sure I'd give up my '73 PX10E.

Originally posted by mekki
In the meantime, I had become interested in personal electric transportation, namely scooters, and had a couple of those. I used them for short trips to the store and post office and stuff...
I use my commuter bicycle for short trips to the post office. Sometimes I'll even ride my road bike there when it isn't too far out of the way of my usual ride. :eek:


They scoff and deride the electric bike and crack jokes...
I have a friend (~70 years old) who rides an E-Bike. I don't deride him or crack jokes. I deride young, healthy people (and those who aren't healthy - aka FAT) who won't get off their butts and ride a bike (or do any kind of exercise) for weight management and health reasons.


If everyone rode, they wouldn't have anyone to feel superior to! They enjoy their sense of smugness...
I thought you were talking about motorists for a second. :eek: Isn't their motto: "CARS ARE SUPERIOR!"


...don't want to be too sweaty and tired when they get to work...
Sure I'm sweaty when I get to work. But I arrive early so I'll have time to clean up.
Tired? Never! Riding to work invigorates me. I don't need to jump-start the day with 3 cups of coffee. I'm ready to go.

Here's a link to the Aprilia Enjoy fuel cell prototype:
www.apriliaenjoy.com/eng/fuelcell.htm

Originally posted by RonH
[B]I use my commuter bicycle for short trips to the post office. Sometimes I'll even ride my road bike there when it isn't too far out of the way of my usual ride. :eek:

OK, but I often find that with the time it takes me to go downstairs to the bike locker, unlock, ride through 2 sets of security gates, lock up at the destination, and reverse it, a trip of a few blocks is a lot quicker on a little scooter. Sometimes quick and convenient is good.


I have a friend (~70 years old) who rides an E-Bike. I don't deride him or crack jokes. I deride young, healthy people (and those who aren't healthy - aka FAT) who won't get off their butts and ride a bike (or do any kind of exercise) for weight management and health reasons.

I dunno, but maybe derision in general is a bad idea? Maybe you have some habits/opinions/whatever that some people may disagree with or find offensive, but hopefully they don't bug you because they realize that it is none of their business.



Sure I'm sweaty when I get to work. But I arrive early so I'll have time to clean up.
Tired? Never! Riding to work invigorates me. I don't need to jump-start the day with 3 cups of coffee. I'm ready to go.

Sounds good and I'm really glad that works for you, but the nurse I just sold a bike to found that she was too tired to ride home after her shift and loves to be able to cruise home at a decent speed. Or the yoga insturctor that uses her ebike to travel to classes in a 30 km radius and wants her yoga practice to be the bulk of her daily excecise, not the trip to the class. Or the guy that rides a bike all over town but wasn't able to get out to the universisty anymore because of the honking hill.

What I'm saying is that everyone has a story that you don't know anything about - to give them attitude or a hard time for choosing to ride an electric bicycle is counter productive. I don't know anything about Atlanta, but Vancouver is a pretty hilly city and owning an electric bike has gotten me out of my car and onto a bike. I truly fail to see how this can be viewed as anything but positive

So after seeing these pictures I am interested in reading more. I went to the URL above but it seems that site presents it more as a prototype not a product. Can those of you who have links to bikes like this from various suppliers please toss out a few of the URL's. I'd greatly appreciate it ... also, are there a chain of vendors in the US that carry these bikes? Thanks again.

Sean

Hi Sean,

The Fuel cell bike is a prototype - joint venture between a co. called Manhatten Scientifics and Aprilia, if I recall. More a proof of concept than a saleable product.

We're Canadian dealers for the cruisery bike back a page but don't carry the Aprilia/Merida PC600 at this time. I don't want to post a commercial link to my site as the intention here isn't to sell bikes but sell the concept of the bikes ;)

I can heartily recommend Eric Sundin at Electric Vehicles NorthWest (http://www.electricvehiclesnw.com/) in Seattle. He's been selling electric assist bikes for as long as anyone and is a straight shooter that deals in quality bikes.

If you want someone a little closer to home, NYCE Wheels (http://www.nycewheels.com) in NYC are a great bunch and have all the best stuff.

I really don't mean to push e-bikes on here, and totally understand that a lot of BFers don't want or need electric assist, but... I'm really focusing on marketing electric bikes to cyclists, not because they will buy electric bikes but because they understand the numerous benefits of cycling. While they may not want an e-bike, I bet everyone here can think of a friend/spouse/co-worker/aunt/grandpa that could really benefit from a little help on the hills.

Here's a great post form another forum: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/power-assist/message/14564

Happy Cycling! (electric or not)
Christian

When I was living in the SF Bay Area, one of the Jeep dealerships I reguarly took my Jeep to for service in San Jose was also an E-Bike dealership. I think they even offerred some kind of package combo involving a Jeep, E-Bike and hitchrack. At anyrate, I was waiting for some work to get done on one of my skid plates (mangled the transfer case armour while offroading) so I decided to test drive one of the E-Bikes. I took it out for about an hour and got lunch a few miles away. It was really quite fun to ride.

Just curious Mekki do you get comments from people on Motorcycles also? Considering you are not on a Motorcycle and not on a regular bike.

You will find recumbent riders get about same abuse you do on you're e-bike at times. On average the cycling community that have come across have been a very good group of people but there are those exceptions of course.

Anything to get urban people out of there cars and on to something much more logical for confined areas is a good thing whether it be a bike,ebike, motor scooter, or any of the new electric and non electric skateboard/scooters that are out there. Here in Seattle I see a few of the e bikes and have joked with them that it is cheating, but I am just glad to see them in something besides a car with a cell phone attached to there ears