"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - Ullrich's team did not warn him - another Lance interview revelation

Lance stated last evening in his post-tour interview with Phil and Paul on OLN that THREE of Jan's team members had already crashed on the round-a-bout where Jan would eventaully fall in the final ITT. Furthermore, none of these team members let Jan know about the crashes in this slippery turn. Lance also mentioned that George H and Roberto H were on the radio/phone right after their rides to inform Lance about specific road and weather conditions.

Did anyone else catch this? It seems that Jan's team or his director needs to work on teamwork a bit for next year.

He was probably to high to understand what was going on anyway.

Originally posted by djbowen1
He was probably to high to understand what was going on anyway.

High on adrenaline, or are you insinuating that Jan is doping??? :confused:

It's almost typical Jan Ullrich, he rely's solely on his talent to get him through a tour, which as we've seen just doesn't work. The man is a monster in terms of power, but he doesn't have it all put together, and maybe he never will.

Lance was also talking about all the tactical errors that Bianchi and Jan made during the tour, including the parts about team-work and that final TT. It's amazing that more people aren't catching on to the way that USPS is running it's team.

Imagine if Jan were on USPS, to have that level of team-work around him, to have that strength helping him when he needed it, he would be unstoppable.

Andrew

Remember that this is a relatively new team for JU. But if what you are saying is that LA only won because his team were better, then I agee with you :D

It's almost typical Jan Ullrich, he rely's solely on his talent to get him through a tour, which as we've seen just doesn't work. The man is a monster in terms of power, but he doesn't have it all put together, and maybe he never will.


Maybe it wasn't Jan's fault as much as it was just a miscommunication between him and his team. He is new to the team, and as a team, they should have been on the radio to the next riders to tell them what happened when they were out there riding. I don't think it was Jan being typical Jan- it was Jan's teammates again not acting as a team to warn him about what's happening on the course. Too bad for Jan. :(

I'm sure Jan will click a bit more with his team and develop better communication so he doesn't make the same mistake for his upcoming races.

Koffee

Also remember that Lance drove the final time trial course. Jan stayed in bed and watched a video of it.

It's little things like that that give a bid edge to riders.

As to the high comment. Once a cheater always a cheater.

When did Lance cheat? I missed that.

Not lance.

Oh, sorry.

Originally posted by djbowen1
Not lance.

Did Jan get busted for a performance enhancing drug? I only know of the X. :confused:

Originally posted by Ajay213
Lance was also talking about all the tactical errors that Bianchi and Jan made during the tour, including the parts about team-work and that final TT.

Lance also mentioned the attack that Jan threw @ him on the Tourmalet. Lance stated that he knew he had Jan when Jan attacked on the penultimate climb.

Interesting.

Originally posted by djbowen1
As to the high comment. Once a cheater always a cheater.

When's Jan been found to have been cheating? I know he got caught on recreational drugs when not racing but that's a little different...

Wasnt he the one who got the cars searched and everything. They found a trunk load of stuff. Wasnt that him.

Maybe not him, then who was it.

Are you talking about Virenque during the Festina affair?

Ullrich has had some mishaps off the bike, but as far as I know he's played by the rules on the bike.

Much has been made of the lack of cohesion in Bianchi. I think they did pretty d@mn good considering they've just got things sorted.

Just wait till next year!

Maybe it wasn't Jan's fault as much as it was just a miscommunication between him and his team. He is new to the team, and as a team, they should have been on the radio to the next riders to tell them what happened when they were out there riding. I don't think it was Jan being typical Jan- it was Jan's teammates again not acting as a team to warn him about what's happening on the course. Too bad for Jan.

I'm sure Jan will click a bit more with his team and develop better communication so he doesn't make the same mistake for his upcoming races.

I don't buy it, although maybe I'll take a long look at it ;)

Jan is not new to this sport, he is a veteran. His reputation for being prepared isn't very good, especially compared to USPS. Yet he still places very high in the GC when he compete's, always a bridesmaid, rarely the bride I guess. Hence why I think if JU had a well run team behind him he would be unstoppable, even for LA and the USPS team or anybody else who wanted to challenge him.

I don't get it actually. Bicycling had a good short article on why Lance was going to win this tour, and a couple of the reasons were the level of prep the team does and the team itself (with thier almost perfect assortment of climbers vs TT'ers). Granted Bianchi is a new team, but they were Coast before that, they have been together for a little while at least. And even past that what was the team director thinking? Lance mentioned 3 Bianchi riders piling up at the same exact corner, why didn't the team management say anything about it while Jan was on the course?


But if what you are saying is that LA only won because his team were better, then I agee with you

There's no doubt that the team was what REALLY kept it together this year, even more so than last year.

But even in 99 and 00 when the USPS team wasn't the powerhouse it is today Lance (and I assume Johan) knew how to use the team to it's best. Like getting feedback on TT's, sending out team members on different gearing strategies because of small climbs to see if they would blow up on the big ring or go to slow on the small ring, to send Hindcapie to go flat out for the whole course to find problems on the course, etc.

This year is a perfect example of demonstrating to people how important a team is to cycling, since the average person doesn't understand the team principle in cycling. It shows a lot of other things like how important the team time trial is. How important it is to attack your opponents weakness's, imagine if LA didn't take some 2+ minutes out JU on Alpe D'huez, etc.

Andrew

Man, I still tear up when I look at that tape of the TTT... it was poetry in motion. :cry:

If Jan ever clicked with a team like that... watch out!

Koff

Originally posted by djbowen1
Maybe not him, then who was it.

don't accuse Jan, as I can see you have no idea what you are talking about.

Originally posted by bac
THREE of Jan's team members had already crashed on the round-a-bout where Jan would eventaully fall in the final ITT. Furthermore, none of these team members let Jan know about the crashes in this slippery turn.

Sure is a lot of bile in this forum, today. :rolleyes:

I missed that, but it taxes the imagination. How would Lance know what Jan was told? I cannot possibly imagine that Pevenage (sp?), would either not know about his other riders crashing, or knowing, fail to inform Jan. That's just crazy.

Lance had the luxury of riding after Jan. Jan did not have Lances TT splits, so in spite of the risk, chose to go all out. Possibly in spite of his DS's warnings. And for that matter, every time I see the tape of his wreck (and they replayed it about 17 times fer cryin out loud), it was scarcely a corner. He wasn't even leaning when he went down.

Originally posted by Koffee Brown
Man, I still tear up when I look at that tape of the TTT... it was poetry in motion. :cry:

No doubt, Koffee. Watching them cross the line with smiles WIDE was pretty cool to see again too. However, the moment that I almost teared up (I'll never admit to a tear, though!) was the Beloki crash. Hearing him crying on the ground is REALLY tough to watch. I can't image the pain, and the disappointment he must have been feeling. Ugh.

(BTW, sorry to get off subject a bit)

The rider with the dope in the trunk (his wifes car actually)
was Raimundas Rumsas (sp?).

The difference as I see it between Lance and Jan is maturity.
lance is mature enough now to listen to his DS (johann),
he is mature enough to know when to attack and when not
to. He is not the Lance who used to go out and attack from
the first Km and blow up shortly thereafter.
He is mature enough to know how to use his team to both
their and his fullest advantage.
Jan is a tremendous powerhouse, he is a machine with huge
potential, however I do not see him ever living up to that
potential because his mindset isn't correct.
Look at the final TT, while both Lance and Jan had huge
stakes riding it, Lance got up and rode the course, Jan
watched a video tape from his hotel. Jan was as nervous as
a hound before a thunderstorm, Lance was cool as a cucumber
(although he tells it differently).
Granted Jan was the one who had to go out and win the stage,
who had to take risks, but don't you think if that was the case
he would want to be as prepared as possible? and that includes
getting up to the minute information on the course. Come on,
Bianchi, while a new team, isn't made up of rookies. These guys
should know enough to call in road conditions to their DS.
And Pevenage needs to take a huge bite of responsibility for
Jan not winning this years TdF. consider this, Jan is nervous
so what does he do? Drives close enough to Jan to increase
his nervousness, and tells him nothing about the course
conditions which might have calmed Jan down.
Now, Consider where Jan might have been standing in Paris
if he signed with CSC, and Bjarne Riis was his DS.

Marty

I agree with Lotek but extend the responsibility even futher into the DS's lap. If anyone was to blame for Ullrich not having yellow in Paris, it was Bianchi's DS. I'm willing to bet he placed a lot of pressure on Jan to go all out in TT despite road conditions. Jan knew the conditions were hazardous. He knew he was taking risky turns. He knew the course was slippery and I don't think he was totally ignoring that information. You can clearly see him signalling back to the car to slow down. For a rider in a TT to take the energy, time and effort to do that means that there's a serious communications breakdown and a serious disagreement in tactics between the rider and the manager. That fact that the DS did not back off and continued to ride Jan's wheel with the car indicates that the DS was the one who was not listening.

Originally posted by lotek
[BAnd Pevenage needs to take a huge bite of responsibility for
Jan not winning this years TdF. consider this, Jan is nervous
so what does he do? Drives close enough to Jan to increase
his nervousness, and tells him nothing about the course
conditions which might have calmed Jan down.[/B]

Was that not crazy?? Jan even waved his arm in an effort to get him to back off. It didn't work. :rolleyes:

I didn't notice that in the TT... but if that happened (what you all described)... damn. Talk about an idiot for a team director. I figure the most important thing to do in a TT would be to keep the rider comfortable and focused.

There were times, when he was following so close, that he would have ran over Jan if he would have fallen.

I dont think Team Bianchi is quite a team yet. They were a group of solo riders, wearing the same uniform. That will improve with time. Jan will be dangerous next year. Jan has never cheated on the bike, in any fashion.

As for waiting for LA, he could have easily taken off without Lance when he was down. He didnt completely stop and wait, but he did slow and look back, at least 8 times. When Tyler came up, they almost completely stopped. Lance would have caught back up even without Hamilton's help.

For those who think that JU is a stronger rider than LA, when did JU drop LA in this latest (or any) TdF? LA has dropped not only JU, but all other riders, when needed. JU may be the second best, but nothing in this or any other TdF, has shown him to be superior to LA. Did JU wear the maille jaune this TdF? I think not. Count their respective TT and stage wins when riding head-to-head and you will see that LA is the suoerior rider in not only this TdF, but all of the five he has won. Splits or not, JU was not going to take time from LA in the final TT. It is too bad that JU fell, as this can now never be proven.

LA was definitely in every team/riders sights this year and he and the USPS team responded with the highest level of professionalism and top performance. I was happy to be there for his win this year and look forward to doing the same next. Many, many Stars and Stripes on the Champs Elyse for LA. Was great to watch and be part of the crowd. GO LANCE!!!

I don't quite get it yet. Lance won AGAIN! Jan did not win AGAIN. Lance has proven AGAIN, and AGAIN despite test after test he is clean. Lance also smoked everyone last year in overall time. He proved that despite a crash in the mountains that he IS the best IMHO. Yes the USPS team did a fantastic job this year, as they should have and as they needed to. Yet Lance keeps getting a huge amount of disrespect, WHY? Did Miguel Indurain get this kind of treatment or is it that Lance is American? I for one am sick of hearing it.

Hunter,

what disrespect for lance? I don't see any in this thread.
I do think that any of the riders who dominate get the same kind
of treatment. From what I've read Merckx was not liked and
got the same.

Marty

Hard to judge "teamwork" form outside the team. I'm kind of thinkin' none of the other teams focus on the tuor the same way as USPS and Lance.

Maybe Americans are different, they get all technical and think about all the details. Maybe the Bianchi riders were all embarassed for falling....maybe they figured Ulrich was smarter and better in the turns....

In one respect, it's kind of "uncool" that the USPS and Lance "throw it all" at the TDF. I'm sure other team directors are reflecting over the tour results and wondering about putting more eggs in the 2004 TDF "basket".........

Originally posted by khuon
I agree with Lotek but extend the responsibility even futher into the DS's lap. If anyone was to blame for Ullrich not having yellow in Paris, it was Bianchi's DS. I'm willing to bet he placed a lot of pressure on Jan to go all out in TT despite road conditions. Jan knew the conditions were hazardous. He knew he was taking risky turns. He knew the course was slippery and I don't think he was totally ignoring that information. You can clearly see him signalling back to the car to slow down. For a rider in a TT to take the energy, time and effort to do that means that there's a serious communications breakdown and a serious disagreement in tactics between the rider and the manager. That fact that the DS did not back off and continued to ride Jan's wheel with the car indicates that the DS was the one who was not listening. The TdF rules say that a car cannot lead the rider, lest he gain aerodynamic advantage, but say nothing about trailing the rider. There are many conditions where a vehilce behind a rider could create a high pressure area to offset the low pressure area behind the rider which is one of the considerable sources of drag, and which is why aerodynamic shapes in subsonic regions have bullet shaped nose, and pointy tails. It may be the car was giving Jan a very slight advantage.

That's true FOG, that's one of the reasons why two riders can ride faster than one rider, the guy in front is doing more work, but still less than if he were by himself. For instance;

Rid1
100%

Rid1a - Rid1b
90% - 75%

That's in terms of effort based on a single person.

But in the ITT that day the riders had a big tail wind, and the car was never that close to be of any real aero help. It more looked like he was trying to push JU to go faster after the crash, which un-nerved him even more after the crash. The mere fact he kept waving the car to move farther back is the telltale there.

Andrew

Originally posted by FOG
The TdF rules say that a car cannot lead the rider, lest he gain aerodynamic advantage, but say nothing about trailing the rider. There are many conditions where a vehilce behind a rider could create a high pressure area to offset the low pressure area behind the rider which is one of the considerable sources of drag, and which is why aerodynamic shapes in subsonic regions have bullet shaped nose, and pointy tails. It may be the car was giving Jan a very slight advantage.

I don't think the car was close enough to do that. It looked like JU was asking him to back off. Remember the near collision early in the race when the rider tangled with a cameraman?

JU was worried about getting flattened if he fell again.

Originally posted by lotek
Hunter,

what disrespect for lance? I don't see any in this thread.
I do think that any of the riders who dominate get the same kind
of treatment. From what I've read Merckx was not liked and
got the same.

Marty

Look around in here Marty you will see it.

Originally posted by Hunter
Look around in here Marty you will see it.

I think you are being a bit paranoid.

Does supporting a racer like JU mean we disrespect Lance. No.

The guy is a fine athlete. I like JU because he is a great rider with human failings.

I like Lance too as an inspiration, but don't rate him so highly as a TdF winner because he gears all year towards it.

The other 5 times winners were racers who did that, raced all year. LA will never equal Merckx or Indurain in my book.

I know you are a strong patriot Hunter, but just because supporters of other riders make statement in support of their guys doesn't mean they are dissing LA(God forbid!)

Well chewa I think you are getting more out of what I typed then what was said. I never stated that supporting Jan was "dissing" lance. Also my patrotism has nothing to do with this issue. I do not see where you get what you do out of so little said but you do none the less.

Ullrich wasn't waving off his team car. He was waving off the television crew. When it looks like the camera is right up his butt, remember that is the television crew, not his team car. I believe that Phil said he is waving off his team car, but in an interview the next day Jan said he was waving off the television guys.

Originally posted by Hunter
Well chewa I think you are getting more out of what I typed then what was said. I never stated that supporting Jan was "dissing" lance. Also my patrotism has nothing to do with this issue. I do not see where you get what you do out of so little said but you do none the less.

You may be right. I may have misinterpreted..

I re read the thread and still couldn't see where there was any disrepect for Lance mentioned.

You did make the point that perhaps it's because Lance is an American that he gets disrespect, but in this thread I can't see any. Only a discussion regarding JU's team and DS.

My mention of patriotism here ties in with other threads where there does appear to be a very tight link between LA being a great rider and being American. I get the impression that some (not you) are unwilling to credit JU and others achievements because they are not American. Blind patriotism. While I'm all for loving your country,(I love mine) I can still admit that Millar is a pillock (and it's not just because he's lost his accent).

if I've offended you I'm sorry.

Well I for one am appreciative of your response. I did in fact though ask a question as to the lack of respect for Lance and his nationality, I was not attempting to make a point. Anyway what is a "pillock?"

'Pillock' is a slang term for the male member, I believe it's medieval in origin.

Millar is a British rider when winning a stage and a Scottish rider when he's acting as a Pillock. In the same way the British are great at Curling...

Originally posted by Richard D
'Pillock' is a slang term for the male member, I believe it's medieval in origin.

Millar is a British rider when winning a stage and a Scottish rider when he's acting as a Pillock. In the same way the British are great at Curling...

It's the problem of being a subject nation. You lot down south can have him anyway. We don't like whiners up here :D

Originally posted by chewa
It's the problem of being a subject nation. You lot down south can have him anyway. We don't like whiners up here :D

NOOOoooooo Please NOOOOooooo - (shall we let Malta have him back instead? :D )

Give him to the French? he did resign with Cofidis. . .

works for me.


Marty

Originally posted by Hunter
Well I for one am appreciative of your response. I did in fact though ask a question as to the lack of respect for Lance and his nationality, I was not attempting to make a point. Anyway what is a "pillock?"


I have visions of you calling the next motorist who cuts you up a "pillock" and him going "wha?"

Ah, the international nature of language.

LOL you are correct!

Originally posted by Koffee Brown
Man, I still tear up when I look at that tape of the TTT... it was poetry in motion. :cry:

If Jan ever clicked with a team like that... watch out!

Koff


This begs the question should a TTT be included in a race which has an individual winner?

Originally posted by mouseorgan
This begs the question should a TTT be included in a race which has an individual winner?

Well, yes there is an individual winner, but it's still very much a team race. Postal won le Tour this year, and Lance was, of course) @ the helm. That's my take on the race!

I agree it is a team race but the significance of the TTT is too great. It has too much effect on the GC - you only have to look at the overall standings after the TTT stage.

Ummm, isn't that the point? The TTT is a very important stage, just like the mountain top finishes, the ITT's, etc.

Andrew