Advocacy & Safety - Driver shoots cyclist.

Bicyclist Shot In Road-Rage Confrontation With Motorist

http://www.msnbc.com/local/wlky/a1722190.asp?cp1=1

LOUISVILLE, 6:14 p.m. EDT July 31, 2003 - A case of road rage left a bicyclist recovering from a gunshot wound, according to police.

The shooting happened Thursday afternoon on Baxter Avenue near the Mid City Mall, WLKY NewsChannel 32 reported.
According to police, Larry Watts was driving his car when he got into a heated exchange with bicyclist Richard Burgin Jr.
Watts and Burgin stopped on the side of the road, and Burgin threw a punch at Watts, police said.
Watts responded by pulling out a gun and firing at Burgin, according to police.
Watts reportedly headed for the mall, but then left the area. He later called the police and was taken into custody, NewsChannel 32 reported.
Watts was charged with first-degree assault.
Burgin's injuries are not life-threatening, according to NewsChannel 32.

It's starting to get violent now. Think I'll go ride in the woods.

First degree assult?

It ought to be attempted murder, man! What the heck is going on out there in Kentucky?

It's not go ride in the woods, it's arm yourselves before going for a ride....

:rolleyes:

Originally posted by danka24

Burgin threw a punch at Watts,

Why?

It does not sound good to me.

Thank goodness I cycle in a country where I don't even have to consider that a motorist would have a gun.

I think we all need to bring out bicycles out in the open even if were just walking them...That way our authorities will realize that bicycles arn't going to go away...and that our society had better get use to it..and provide for it...maybe some day all the gas will run out and we'll get lucky?:)

Drivers yell and curse and shake their fists at each other all the time. Usually that's as far as it goes, because they're insulated by their metal cages and don't consider the other motorist to be a real human being, just an abstraction labeled "that a**hole in the Ford" or whatever.

It's a state of mind that drivers enter. They don't see people out there, they see obstructions.

Cyclists, as correct as they might be when asserting their rights to act as a vehicle, would do well to remember that they lack the metal cage, but that the drivers are still in their "you're not real, you're just in my way" trance.

In this case, it's entirely possible that the cyclist fell into a rage of his own. I can identify. When we get cut off, right-hooked, brushed-by, or otherwise ill-used by drivers, it's natural to yell, to throw the bird, to want to somehow "teach them a lesson" so they won't do that to other cyclists, to demonstrate to them how wrong they are.

That's cager thinking. That's the same attitude the drivers have. We see the car, and not the human inside.

IMO, the correct emotional response to a driver who can't share the road is not anger, but pity. But keep it to yourself.

RichC

Once again, I'm glad I don't live in the USA. Too many stupid people, too many guns, not enough bikes.

Originally posted by wabbit
Once again, I'm glad I don't live in the USA. Too many stupid people, too many guns, not enough bikes.

Riiiight......like we don't have our share of stupid people in this country as well. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by rockymtn_girl
Riiiight......like we don't have our share of stupid people in this country as well. :rolleyes:

Wise words from one from Alberta... ;)

Originally posted by Koffee Brown

It's not go ride in the woods, it's arm yourselves before going for a ride....

And hope that the other guy misses when he shoots first? Or maybe shoot them on suspicion? Sounds to me like a bit of a vicious circle here. How about simply not getting into the confrontation to begin with?


Originally posted by Max
{Quote**
Originally posted by danka24

Burgin threw a punch at Watts,
{/Quote**

Why?

It does not sound good to me.

Exactly. While I don't believe the driver had any right to shoot him, I have to ask the question of why the cyclist in this case had the right to throw a punch to begin with. After all, if the driver had thrown the punch, we'd have 100 replies to this thread saying "what an *******". In this case it was the cyclist who threw the punch, and everyone seems to be overlooking that fact.

Yes, the driver was wrong to shoot him, but that doesn't make the initial aggression right.


Originally posted by chip
I think we all need to bring out bicycles out in the open even if were just walking them...That way our authorities will realize that bicycles arn't going to go away...and that our society had better get use to it..and provide for it...

Critical mass has been trying that for years, and it hasn't worked yet. And what exactly do we expect the "authorities" to do about it? They can't outlaw stupidity. It's time to promote cycling as an activity using non-confrontational means rather than trying to force everyone to take up a bike, but that's another thread.


Originally posted by Rich Clark

In this case, it's entirely possible that the cyclist fell into a rage of his own. I can identify. When we get cut off, right-hooked, brushed-by, or otherwise ill-used by drivers, it's natural to yell, to throw the bird, to want to somehow "teach them a lesson" so they won't do that to other cyclists, to demonstrate to them how wrong they are.

That's cager thinking. That's the same attitude the drivers have. We see the car, and not the human inside.

IMO, the correct emotional response to a driver who can't share the road is not anger, but pity. But keep it to yourself.


At last, a sensible reply as opposed to all the emotional ones that have been trotted out so far. As I said above, the smartest option here would have been to avoid the confrontation to begin with. If the driver's actions really bother you that much, call the cops and let them deal with it. Otherwise, just ignore it. Getting emotional about something like this with people who just don't care is not going to do anything to solve the problem.

We have PLENTY of morons here in canada. It's just that it's harder for them to get their hands on deadly weapons. Stupid people are dangerous enough without being armed.

Originally posted by wabbit
We have PLENTY of morons here in canada. It's just that it's harder for them to get their hands on deadly weapons. Stupid people are dangerous enough without being armed.

It's not necessary to arm the morons with guns to make them dangerous--they're all already armed with motor vehicles--each and every one of which is a weapon of mass destruction in my book.

And, by the way, I did read a news story several years back about a cyclist is Arizona--that's the wild west to all you easterners out there--who rode with a big ol' six shooter in a holster on his belt where all the motorists could clearly see it--and the motorists reportedly all gave him lots of distance and respect when following or passing...

Randa. Having a gun strapped about my waist as I bike would give me no security. A motorist's hand can become free a little more readily. Showing a visible gun, I suspect would more likely infuriate the already irrational.

I'm not necessarily recommending displaying a gun, just reporting on something I read a while back.

I often arm myself when I go biking.


I was once a boy scout and still follow the motto "be prepared" to this day.

Originally posted by Chris L


Yes, the driver was wrong to shoot him, but that doesn't make the initial aggression right.




I agree with Chris..... the guy should have never tried to punch him. Sure, I get very angry when I'm on my bike (part of the reason why I like it), but I'd never be stupid enough to punch someone. But I guess we all make mistakes.

I had to respond to this thread. I carry a small revolver when cycling and most everywhere else and am licensed to do so. I was also a combat engineer in the United States Marine Corp with extensive firearms training. A gun is a tool like a screwdriver, hammer, etc. that has its place with proper and safe use. Its a personal decision to arm yourself or not. I too would prefer we as a society could all sit around the fire and sing Kum-bah-yaH but it is not a reality. The reality is we do have predatory criminals and other deviants that we must protect ourselves from. In this case this car driver had no proper or legal reason to shoot this cyclist, even if he was punched first. There is something called disparity of force when dealing with a possible deadly confrontation. In short it means that you must take a beating to the point of fearing for your life and ALSO be unable to flee the area BEFORE you are justified in using deadly force. Basically, you must be beaten to the point of almost death before you could shoot someone in a fistfight. Now if the cyclist would have been armed with an impact weapon; rock, tirepump, etc and attacked the motorist first he would have been making a deadly mistake that would have justified deadly force IF and this is a big IF- the motorist was trapped and could not escape the area. If the motorist stopped his car to initiate a confrontation this motorist should go to jail for a long time IMO. The cyclist hitting the motorist first is wrong also and should illustrate that it is always best to avoid confrontation-especially today in the USA as you never know what you're getting yourself into. I've had people cut me off, give me the finger, tailgate me etc in a car while armed and would never even consider bringing a firearm into the picture. If I was trapped and cornered however and could not escape or was attacked by someone else using deadly force I would do whatever it took to assure I went home to my wife and children that night. I ride on the Erie Canal path here in upstate NY and we've had woman bike riders attacked and raped and even murdered. The Canal path runs from end to end of the state and is a major biking thouroughfare. It is a potentially dangerous place that I would not ever ride without being armed personally, especially with my wife with me. There are some bad people out there. Some people are just plain idiots and you can't legislate that out of existance.

Ditto, Devil Dog

Couldn't have said it better myself!!

Originally posted by Chris L
the smartest option here would have been to avoid the confrontation to begin with. If the driver's actions really bother you that much, call the cops and let them deal with it. Otherwise, just ignore it.

In any confrontation I've had, I've simply said, "I'm just following the law" (a good reason to ride lawfully) then, I pull out my cell phone and suggest we call the police so he can straighten the situation out right now. This usually stops things.

In Colorado, our drivers "shoot to kill" and did a couple of years ago in a bike-auto confrontation.

http://www.bikeleague.org/mediacenter/medprs20.htm

Last year in nearby Escondodo a passing motorist shot a cyclist in the foot. The incdent was totally unprovoked. The cyclist was like a sitting duck in a shooting gallery.
Unless cyclists develope some sort of high tek. rapid response retalitory device similiar to an anti ballistic missile system, I just do not see how guns makes one feel more secure.
Maybe if you ride the back country of Alaska where you might surprise a bear first- that might work. As for me the presence of guns adds to my sense of insecurity any day. In Gun confrontations the element of surprise works against the victim; unfortunately too many in that category include police officiers.

In an ideal world, everyone would be a perfect driver. And everyone who owned a gun would be a nice responsible gun owner, there would never be any accidental shootings or road rage. However, the murder rates and death stats show that this is not the case. Mind you, the idea of the cell phone and suggesting we call the cops- that's a good idea.

Originally posted by cyclezealot
Last year in nearby Escondodo a passing motorist shot a cyclist in the foot. The incdent was totally unprovoked. The cyclist was like a sitting duck in a shooting gallery.
Unless cyclists develope some sort of high tek. rapid response retalitory device similiar to an anti ballistic missile system, I just do not see how guns makes one feel more secure.

Any sort of retaliatory device is just that, retaliatory. This is the problem. It isn't going to prevent the initial act of aggression, so your options are to either avoid the conflict altogether, or just hope the aggressive driver misses for long enough for you to get your retaliation in. The third (less palatable option) is to start shooting people on suspicion, it's probably the only thing that might prevent this sort of thing, but I think I'd rather quit riding altogether than go down that path.

As far as the unprovoked attacks go, these happens surprisingly rarely, and in probably 99,999 out of 100,000 cases will generally just involve abuse or something relatively harmless at first, before escalating. The key here is not allowing them to escalate in the first instance. This is why I'd rather deal with the cops than the driver.

Originally posted by Aloner
I often arm myself when I go biking.


I was once a boy scout and still follow the motto "be prepared" to this day.
that is another one that i like, but out here in Toronto, when a person has a Gun or a weapon reported to the Police, the Police will come down on you like a "Plaque"

and as far as having stupid people here in T.O. we have lots of this here in Parliament Hill,

Originally posted by Chris L
This is why I'd rather deal with the cops than the driver. You should never try to settle a dispute yourself. Get out of the way, smile; let the guy go; get his license and report him. It's better than getting shot.

To me, this wasn't "driver shoots cyclist". They had both evidentily left their vehicles. It sounds more like "one hothead shoots another hothead". It happens all the time and it's not news, although some ambulance-chasing "reporters" think it is.

The article is a great example of crappy reporting, as it doesn't even say what the dispute was about. I'd expect more of an article in a high school paper. Oh, well, anything for a buck.

There could be a bunch missing here. Why did the cyclest hit the guy? The driver had stopped and gotton out - was he the aggressor and the cyclest being defensive? Or the cycles could have grabbed him at a stop light. I need more info before I'll make a judgement. The driver calling the police makes me think he at least thought he was in the right.

Joe

Originally posted by JRA

The article is a great example of crappy reporting, as it doesn't even say what the dispute was about. I'd expect more of an article in a high school paper.

Exactly.

Well, there obvously was some kind of disagreement, the usual thing between drivers or drivers and cyclists. Since they probably were strangers it likely wasn't anything personal, like a girl or money. But either way, there's no good reason to SHOOT someone in an argument. IF that's how people solve their problems and deal with things, yet another argument for gun control. YEs, we know not everyone does that, but far too many do, enough to make it dangerous. IF it weren't for a gun, most arguments would probably end with a punch in the nose.

Originally posted by wabbit
Well, there obvously was some kind of disagreement, the usual thing between drivers or drivers and cyclists. Since they probably were strangers it likely wasn't anything personal, like a girl or money. But either way, there's no good reason to SHOOT someone in an argument. IF that's how people solve their problems and deal with things, yet another argument for gun control. YEs, we know not everyone does that, but far too many do, enough to make it dangerous. IF it weren't for a gun, most arguments would probably end with a punch in the nose.

Just curious why you would generalize ALL people by the actions of a couple of idiots? I mean are you really suggesting that you can make an intelligent conclusion on how ALL people solve their problems by this incident? As far as "if not for the gun", I wonder if you would feel the same way if you or a family member were in LA during the King riots when people called the police for help that their homes and businesses were being firebombed and looted. The Police told the people that they were on their own and to try and protect themselves. They could not help everyone who needed it. Guns aren't only for bad people. Believe it or not they really trust their citizens here in the USA with guns unlike Canada where I guess you just have to hope the police or whatever they're called up there gets there to take the report-ur I mean "save you". I'll trust myself to take care of myself and my family's security and safety. I choose not to be passive about protecting myself or my family. This is my last comment on this issue as I respect others views as well but would not want someone who knows nothing about guns and gunowners to think that all gunowners are like the idiot driver in this case. Just like all cyclists are not jerks who punch people first. The Golden Rule is what I try and live by. Good luck to you and good riding!

Just a point. I know the is no paradise anywhere. My dad was Canadian and we have spent months at a time in Europe. Why are there fewer riots and strife there.?
Been pretty tipsy after a late night's dinner. Walking about at 2 am and mildly iniabrated- felt perfectly safe. It felt great to not have to be paranoid about our safety. Don't know why? Guns only add to our insecurity- in this household

Originally posted by cyclezealot
My dad was Canadian and we have spent months at a time in Europe. Why are there fewer riots and strife there.?

Never been to a European football (soccer) game have you? :D

As far as riots and such goes, I had friends who criticised the US for having riots in downtown Seattle ("That violence and destruction only happens in the US") during the WTO meetings several years ago. Yes, as if all the citizens of this country and more specifically the city planned it that way. Shortly afterwards, I got to point them to the images of similar riots in Switzerland. Just last week WTO protesters in Montreal smashed windows in a downtown shopping mall.

What's my point? Two things:

[1] The troublemaking idiots are simply that and do not represent the majority of the population. One could go so far as to say they don't even represent but a small fraction of the population.

[2] The troublemaking idiots can be found in all forms of society, nations, ethnicity, social class and are not limited to one particular segment either.

There are idiot drivers. There are idiot cyclists. There are idiot cyclists and drivers in the US. There are idiot cyclists and drivers in Europe.

Idiots and bad people can be found anywhere and everywhere. Most of them are not to be defined by what they own and operate or where they are but rather by what they do and how they do it.

I think the lesson here is when you ride your bicycle, always wear a helmet and one of these:

http://www.advanced-intelligence.com/ks23a.jpg

Originally posted by Brennan
I think the lesson here is when you ride your bicycle, always wear a helmet and one of these:

http://www.advanced-intelligence.com/ks23a.jpg

Can you get one with a pouch for a hydration bladder? :D

Originally posted by Brennan
I think the lesson here is when you ride your bicycle, always wear a helmet and one of these:

If you wear one of those in one of our summers, dehydration will kill you faster than a gun wound. I think the real lesson here is simply don't go around punching people.

Originally posted by Chris L
I think the real lesson here is simply don't go around punching people.

Okay... OT here but your statement reminded me of a quote from the movie (horrible that it was) The Last Boy Scout:


You don't just go around punching people. You have to say something cool first... So let's say you catch a guy on the beach... SURF'S UP DUDE!

:lol:

I never even saw that movie. Thanks for your impromptu review.

LOL, can you imagine wearing one of those on your bike? and how about washing it after???

Shooting a cyclist? Punching a motorist? What is the lesson here? Eat your vegetables.

Originally posted by wabbit
... most arguments would probably end with a punch in the nose.

Do not take "a punch" lightly. If the trained person throws a punch, it may end up with the sever damages, like broked teeth, bones, brain damage, and even death.