There will be many ideas on this based on laws in many different areas.Just in comon sense with mostly (95%) bicycle parts a max weight IMO should not exceed 110 pounds. before the moped classifaction should take place.IMO as well I feel 25 mph is a MAX safe top speed providing a puncture proof belted tire is used on ebikes that go over 18 mph.Limiting power of 1500 watts peak with a 1000 watt rated motor would provide for anyones needs and can be controller limited for any legal speed or power requirement.
A theroy I have is If you can not pedal at least 15% of the power that your motor is putting out it becomes a legal no pedal motor ebike if within ebike power and speed laws. LOL.
Gearing your best pedal cadence and motor best efficiency speed to be able to comfortably pedal off your motor systems complete losses is a nice place to be.(85% motor ?) at 1000 watts motor - 15% = 850 watts to the road. Now pedaling fairly hard for 3 hours can be done by many at 150 wh of human power would give your motor 100% efficiency at 1000 watts..10% rule would mean you have 90% effieient motor and you pedal only 10% on curse. This can apply in three speed ranges using internal hubs without use of any derailers. This can apply on a single speed if you have a tipical speed you like to travel at within a defined range.On steep hills the motors will almost always be doing 99% of the work so it is a good to have a strong reliable one to begin with that can be eaisly adjusted for anyones needs..
Robert C
08-30-07, 10:40 PM
This is how I understand California state rules as I have read them. Your state may be different.When it is capable of motoring to speeds greater than 20mph it becomes a moped (note, a moped must also have functional pedals, otherwise it jumps straight to motorcycle having never passed through moped). When it is capable of motoring to speeds greater then 30; or if it lacks functional pedals, it becomes a motorcycle.
406. (a) A "motorized bicycle" or "moped" is any two-wheeled or three-wheeled device
... and is capable of propelling the device at a maximum speed of not more than 30 miles per hour on level ground.
(b) A "motorized bicycle" is also a device that has fully operative pedals for propulsion by
human power and has an electric motor that meets all of the following requirements:
(1) Has a power output of not more than 1,000 watts.
(2) Is incapable of propelling the device at a speed of more than 20 miles per hour on
ground level.
(3) Is incapable of further increasing the speed of the device when human power is used to
propel the motorized bicycle faster than 20 miles per hour.
EbikeHawaii
08-31-07, 12:12 AM
This is how I understand California state rules as I have read them. Your state may be different.When it is capable of motoring to speeds greater than 20mph it becomes a moped (note, a moped must also have functional pedals, otherwise it jumps straight to motorcycle having never passed through moped). When it is capable of motoring to speeds greater then 30; or if it lacks functional pedals, it becomes a motorcycle.
406. (a) A "motorized bicycle" or "moped" is any two-wheeled or three-wheeled device
... and is capable of propelling the device at a maximum speed of not more than 30 miles per hour on level ground.
(b) A "motorized bicycle" is also a device that has fully operative pedals for propulsion by
human power and has an electric motor that meets all of the following requirements:
(1) Has a power output of not more than 1,000 watts.
(2) Is incapable of propelling the device at a speed of more than 20 miles per hour on
ground level.
(3) Is incapable of further increasing the speed of the device when human power is used to
propel the motorized bicycle faster than 20 miles per hour.Thats a good one to not mess with. lol
Ornery
09-01-07, 06:25 PM
Oh brother, glad I saw this topic finally! :)
...before the moped classifaction should take place.
406. (a) A "motorized bicycle" or "moped" is any two-wheeled or three-wheeled device having fully operative pedals for propulsion by human power, or having no pedals if powered solely by electrical energy, and an automatic transmission and a motor which produces less than 2 gross brake horsepower and is capable of propelling the device at a maximum speed of not more than 30 miles per hour on level ground.
While all E-Bikes are "mopeds", not all "mopeds" are E-Bikes. And, while all E-Bikes are "motorized bicycles", not all "motorized bicycles" are E-Bikes. Most states make the simple distinction of calling an E-Bike, an EPB (Electric Power-Assisted Bicycle or Electrically Propelled Bicycle), or EAB (Electrically Assisted Bicycle), in order to clarify.
For all the USA, "These are Federal regulations, which supersede any state law which is more stringent:
Federal Rules & Regulations (http://www.bicycles-electric-bikes.com/rules_laws.htm)
Section 2085. Low-speed electric bicycles (a) Construction Notwithstanding any other provision of law, low-speed electric bicycles are consumer products within the meaning of section 2052(a)(1) of this title and shall be subject to the Commission regulations published at section 1500.18
(a)(12) and part 1512 of title 16, Code of Federal Regulations
(b) Definition For the purpose of this section, the term ''low-speed electric bicycle''
means a two- or three-wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts (1 h.p.), whose maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such a motor while ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20 mph...
IMO, every single vehicle that uses public roads should be licensed. Why not? At that point, people on E-Bikes could ride as fast as the speed limit will allow. Why not? My safety is of no concern to our nanny government. If it were, all motorcycles and bicycles should be considered too unsafe to mingle with cars & trucks. I'm still surprised that legal aged adults can be required to wear helmets and seatbelts.
geebee
09-02-07, 03:48 AM
"IMO, every single vehicle that uses public roads should be licensed. Why not? At that point, people on E-Bikes could ride as fast as the speed limit will allow. Why not? My safety is of no concern to our nanny government. If it were, all motorcycles and bicycles should be considered too unsafe to mingle with cars & trucks. I'm still surprised that legal aged adults can be required to wear helmets and seatbelts."
So you would like every bike in the country registered? do you conceive of the amount of paper work increase that would cause the goverment? I alone have 10 bikes. Where do you put the tag on an ultra light tri-bike. The police can't keep on top of the unregistered cars already.
Most current ebikes would be deadly at those kind of speeds, who pays to keep you on life support assuming you don't take out a ped with the inadequate brakes, tyres and frames. Non powered bikes weigh a lot less and only occationally hit the speed limits.
Your saftey is unfortunately controlled to help the dawinian candidates that end up clogging the medical system and costing the public for the medical and legal problems they cause.
Ornery
09-02-07, 05:52 AM
There's no reason why bicycles (powered or not) should be exempt. If they're sharing the same roads and following the same laws it's only fair. Might help with recovering stolen ones as well. Might also help with keeping boneheads off the road, who can't follow simple traffic laws.
I'm happy to go off topic about our nanny government, and I can keep it pretty short. As I already mentioned, and you disregarded, if safety is such a concern based on "medical and legal problems", then all motorcycles should be off the roads. Helmets or not, the chances of causing "medical and legal problems" are much higher for their riders than anyone else.
And, as long as we're heading down the slippery slope of dictating how to save people from their own stupidity (and saving taxpayers money from "medical and legal problems"), then where should we draw the line? Why stop at mandating helmets & seatbelts? Hell, keep 'em off bikes altogether, especially motorized ones! Oh, and what about skateboarders? Accidents waiting to happen, right? How about ultralight aircraft, speedboats, white water rafting, mountain climbing, skiing, and the numerous other "dangerous" endeavors that suck up tax paid manpower and cause "medical and legal problems"?
Let's not forget the biggest cause of "medical and legal problems": smoking & drinking! Make them illegal? Hey, it's all for our own good, right? After all, our nanny government knows best. http://www.ornery.net/images/rollEyes.gif
geebee
09-02-07, 06:20 AM
You can't seriously believe a standard bike with a lot of extra weight and speed is going to be as safe as a motorbike at the same speed? also do you ban unlicensed (car or motor bike) riding of said ebikes, at 40 mph you had better know the road rules so no licence, no riding, and at that speed and weight you had better implement compulsory 3rd party insurance and personal insurance etc. thus more laws more paper work.
Motor bike helmets are law in oz as are bike helmets and smoking is outlawed in my state indoors and within 10 meters of an entry except in a private residence.
Unfortunately the goverment has to allow for the level of stupidity of some of the public and thus laws get passed to replace common sense.
It would be great to think they are unnecessary but the reality is that they are needed.
You think you have it bad with 750watt and 20 mph limit try ours 200w peak output at shaft, yep the goverment gets it wrong alot of the time as well. :)
Ornery
09-02-07, 06:46 AM
...believe a standard bike with a lot of extra weight and speed is going to be as safe as a motorbike at the same speed?
Nope, nor is it safe for me to jump on a skateboard, but if I so choose, that's not the government's business, so long as I follow the rules of the road. Mandated insurance? I'll go along with liability, but no more. More bureaucracy? It is, but registration fees are supposed to cover that. Doesn't have to be done annually either, just when the vehicle changes hands. I'm for less government in general, but also fair rules and regulations. Exempting certain vehicles just isn't right, and now they're having to deal with the grey areas of what is a bicycle or motorcycle etc.. Just license all of them and be done with it.
I see an e-bike in my future, and I want it to be capable of higher speeds than I'll actually use. My cars are the same way. Just nice to have extra grunt at your disposal. I can even see my family in an E-Car (http://www.eliica.com/) in my lifetime. Talk about grunt! :eek:
Robert C
09-02-07, 07:02 AM
Don't feed the troll
If we were to do what he is calling for, it would be th effective end of bicycles. Much as the state of California, effectively, ended mopeds by requiring licensing, registration, and insurance on them.
Can you imagine what the impact on bicycling would be if the trolls suggestion were taken seriously with a minimum of $40 per year for registration and $400-$600 per year insurance? There is a reason that Honda stopped importing mopeds in the late 80's; it is because the market evaporated.
Of course, reading what the troll has spewed, he would like to see an end to all two wheeled transportation.
This troll has the dubious honor of, in order to avoid my own upset; after all, I read this for pleasure and relaxation, of being the first person added to my ignore list.