Living Car Free - A New Term For Cars--DOGIES

Brian has a hostile attitude toward carfree living, but he's down on those who are equally hostile toward car-centered living.

Correction. Brian would prefer not to see so much hostility towards motorists in general. Complaining about the actions of an individual is fair, but generalizations are not. As I stated, the majority of our members are motorists, and I would like to see them feel welcome in LCF.

Correction. Brian would prefer not to see so much hostility towards motorists in general. Complaining about the actions of an individual is fair, but generalizations are not. As I stated, the majority of our members are motorists, and I would like to see them feel welcome in LCF.

Again, I don't see this hostility as a problem. There's a big difference between not liking cars, and being hostile toward motorists. i see much more hostility toward motorists on other forums than I do here. MUCH more. Here, we (that is, some of us) have an abstract and general dislike of the car culture, but i really see very little expression of hostility toward real people. I think you have a little trouble distinguishing that, Brian. A more open mind would help you to recognize the difference.

Roody, I just noticed your sig. As I rode home from work today in the wind, rain, and lightning, I didn't think I would have been happier in my car. But I certainly would not have preferred to have been on a bicycle.

Mindlessly? Ok then, we'll let you generalize. From some of the other threads I've seen on the forums, the interaction cyclists experience with the world around them is not always positive.



I am generalizing but I can only speak from my experience as I don't have access to studies that have looked into automobile operaters driving mindlessly.
My experience is that all the drivers I've ever been in the car with, except my parents of course;), seem to be able to do so many things while driving so there mind is somewhere else besides operating their vehicle. Perhaps they have a great ability to multi task or at least think so. I'm typically scared to death while in the passenger seat at all the close calls I see but maybe it is just these crazy texas drivers. As I ride my bike to work I get passed by hundreds of drivers and many seem to have the same distractions going on. Cell phones, ipod videos, eating, talking to someone in the back seat while facing them:eek:, picking up stuff on the floor. All while insulated from the world expecting nothing to be in their path. I thikn they really need those autodrive cars from Demolition man. The few people I know who cycle love to do it. They want to get out there and ride their bike everywhere they can. They want to ride just because. Some people feel the same about cars but certainly not me and certainly not people who complain about driving at work all the time.

That is not a typical statement I've seen on the forums though. Mostly I see things such as I hate that you have to drive everywhere, I hate that everyone expect me to have a car what can I do about this or that?

What I'm asking is, if you don't like the current transportation infrastructure, on either the national or local level, what have you done about it? One member responded that he has gotten very involved, to which I offer much respect. Action begets change. Whining, not so much.

I live in a very small town and actively support getting enforcement of traffic laws of to all vehicles including bicycles. That means you STOP and ride in a predictable manner like a car on the right side of the road and all those other things. I guess that is sort of anti cycling but cyclists can be much more of a danger to themselves behaving erratically and ignoring traffic laws when you combine that with inattentive motorist. I tried getting bike facilities at work but no one will ride their bike around here except on weekend peletons, who aren't driver friendly at least around here. There was one guy that tried for about 6 days but quit because they didn't like crossing the highway where a cyclist was recently killed. Your statement and my response seem to be more heavily discussed in A&S.

Apart from off road vehicles they're stuck on drivable roads, and in any other circumstances become bogged down and die. They are not free to go places on roads that are blocked by traffic for miles... And when they arrive whereever they're going, there is the whole parking issue... ;)

In all fairness, I don't consider myself to be a "typical" motorist. Having spent 10 years handling auto insurance claims, (and looking at a lot of accidents scenes, police reports, and damage photos) I'm not likely to drink, talk on the phone, play the radio loud, or let anything distract me while driving. I've owned a 400hp small block Chevy, a grey market BMW, and plenty of other cars that can get an absent-minded motorist in trouble very quickly. I've built a half dozen different off road vehicles as well. No matter what I drive, I have respect for the vehicle's capabilities, as well as my personal safety and the safety of those around me. Because of this, perhaps I am a bit more touchy when someone attempts to paint all motorists with the same brush.

But I am the admin on the greatest cycling website and community in existence. I would like nothing more to see everyone get along. I've made something of a side business for myself in this industry as well. For these selfish reasons, I have a vested interest in seeing more people on bikes, whether for a Sunday ride once a month, or their daily commute, or as their sole source of transport. We may not agree on a lot of things, but I'm on your side.

Cheers,

Brian

Roody, I just noticed your sig. As I rode home from work today in the wind, rain, and lightning, I didn't think I would have been happier in my car. But I certainly would not have preferred to have been on a bicycle.

This is where we differ.

I love cycling on a warm, calm sunny day, but I also love cycling when it's cold or rainy or snowy. Some of my best rides have been under those conditions. A couple of months ago, on a cycle tour, I spent close to 90 kilometres one day riding in a cool rain. It was wonderful. Last year, on another cycle tour, I was caught in a heavy rain storm. It was cool, visibility was low, the thunder was crackling in the distance and I felt completely alive and at peace.

During the routine parts of the year, when I'm commuting or running errands in town, I still enjoy cycling in what some would consider rough weather. Even in the worst conditions, the bike ride is a positive experience and it makes me appreciate my house just a little more.

Last year, on another cycle tour, I was caught in a heavy rain storm. It was cool, visibility was low, the thunder was crackling in the distance and I felt completely alive and at peace.
How peaceful do you feel when the thunder and lightning is not in the distance, but rather all about you and you are without any shelter? Same question for icy roads with traffic all about you? Personally I prefer other modes of transit/sport under those conditions.

How many in here (US only) vote?
<raises hand> I haven't missed an election since my 18th birthday.


Nope. It won't get moved to P&R, or anywhere else. But tell me, why is Portland so different from the rest of the US? Why is it so bike-friendly?


lots of reasons I'm sure. urban growth boundary, a previous mayor who defeated a highway project and threw the money into public transportation. interested and caring citizens. terrain and climate that make it easier than other places. actual neighborhoods that people live in, versus sprawl and urban wasteland... and yes, people who vote and do advocacy.

i've only visited, so some portlanders should chime in here...
All of these factors are important. I've thought about this a lot in the 11 years I have lived here, and I believe the most important factor is the form of city government (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_commission_government) we have. Ironically, nearly all American cities have discarded the commission system in favor of a council-manager style because they thought it would be more efficient. Whatever.

Bragi,

My only issue (repeated for the 3rd time in as many days) is that the attitude of some in LCF towards motorists could be seen as offensive to nearly every member of the forums. I want more members participating here, and moving towards using motor vehicles less. But there's a lot of hostility here towards motorists, even though they may be cyclists as well.

Perhaps I'm missing something but I just don't see that much hostility towards cars here in most of these threads. Maybe P&R, Commuting and A&S numb my senses like they say violent movies/games numb people to actual violence in real life.

This thread started out in a kind of fun light not attacking motorists the worst being someone saying it isn't people it is cars it just changes someone when they drive compared to how they are outside the car.
Here are the 15 most recently posted to threads (beside this one)
These seem to be pretty good for LCF and not filled with Car Hate
Frugal Cycling, or, biking for cheapskates
Self Changes
Cargo Bike Porn: Labor day 2007
Moved Closer to Work (what a difference)
A financial Incentive for going car-free or car-light
Job Interviews and car free
You know what's a cool feeling
How to ditch the car and really really mean it?
Carfree life and your career
A car free life

Moving away from LCF but making the point that there are other things besides transporation that are issues
Who uses a gasoline-powered lawnmower

Anti car culture
Cars, Humanity and Community

Not really anti-car/anti-driver but not Pro bike
Trying to connect the Dinner Plate to Climate Change
Inticed by a free car, now impeached

Started out Anti-Edwards but did move to anti-SUV
Americans should sacrifice their SUVs

Yeah it isn't pristine but it is pretty good and a much more friendly non car hating place then other places more days then not.

So instead of "cager" I suggest we start calling the creatures cattle or dogies. And telling them to get along.

Hmmm...it lacks the sanctimonious, self-righteous, holier-than-thou tone of 'cager'. But maybe I can learn to find it equally ridiculous...

Maybe we need to go full bore anti car...just like the car forums go full bore anti bicycle...just a thought YMMV:p

Aaron:)

Maybe we need to go full bore anti car...just like the car forums go full bore anti bicycle...just a thought YMMV:p

You may be right. We get absolutely zero credit for a long history of welcoming motorists to participate in the discussions here. Since it's apparently impossible to overcome the cold shouldered prejudice, why bother.

Maybe we need to go full bore anti car...just like the car forums go full bore anti bicycle...just a thought YMMV:p

Aaron:)

We have rapidly rising fuel prices, concerns about climate change, traffic congestion and steadily increasing costs of vehicle ownership. These things aren't going to change any time soon. We can expect to see some dedicated motorists making the switch to a car-light or car-free lifestyle in the next few years. We can help these people as they make the transition from heavy car use, but if we adopt an anti-car stance, we will be ignored.

I don't. I just visit, since like a lot of other members that happen to own or ride in motor vehicles, I don't feel very welcome here.


For good reason.

Bragi,

My only issue (repeated for the 3rd time in as many days) is that the attitude of some in LCF towards motorists could be seen as offensive to nearly every member of the forums. I want more members participating here, and moving towards using motor vehicles less. But there's a lot of hostility here towards motorists, even though they may be cyclists as well.

There's hostility in all of the forums - mtb vs roadies, roadies vs commuters, etc. What are you expecting?

I take it you're wanting the people whose hobby depends on driving their bicycle to a designated starting point to feel comfortable in a car-free forum... I'm sorry, but that just seems ridiculous to me. As someone with no intentions of being car-free, or even car-lite, I'm still unsure how you ended up here.

If this is just an attempt to protect the revenue stream, then just shut it down and be done with it.

We have rapidly rising fuel prices, concerns about climate change, traffic congestion and steadily increasing costs of vehicle ownership. These things aren't going to change any time soon. We can expect to see some dedicated motorists making the switch to a car-light or car-free lifestyle in the next few years. We can help these people as they make the transition from heavy car use, but if we adopt an anti-car stance, we will be ignored.

Very well put. A nice contrast to the following quote:

For good reason.

And why would that be?

Bragi,

My only issue (repeated for the 3rd time in as many days) is that the attitude of some in LCF towards motorists could be seen as offensive to nearly every member of the forums. I want more members participating here, and moving towards using motor vehicles less. But there's a lot of hostility here towards motorists, even though they may be cyclists as well.

I still don't see it...I must be freakin' blind or something. Maybe some people are anti car but you see those rants everywhere in the forums. I am NOT car free, not even considered car light. I own an F350 Crew Cab dually Powerstroke Diesel and drive over 60,000 miles a year. 90%+ of that is for work. I have lived car free in the past (over 10 years) and plan to do so in the future. I do use my bikes for as many short range trips as possible. My main attraction to the LCF forums is the like mindedness of most of the people here. We all appear (the regulars that is) to be attempting to get a grasp on what the future holds and doing what we can as individuals to make a difference. No one has ever chastised me or flamed me for my lifestyle choices, and I hope I haven't done it to anyone else. Some people come in here with a chip on their shoulder, those are the ones that seem to have an issue with LCF. Why anyone would come in here and state that hauling a 40# bag of dog food just isn't possible with a bicycle hasn't done jack for research and IMHO and many others is nothing but a troll. And FWIW LCF is one of my favorite forums, it is always the first one I head to when I log on.

Aaron:)

Roody, I just noticed your sig. As I rode home from work today in the wind, rain, and lightning, I didn't think I would have been happier in my car. But I certainly would not have preferred to have been on a bicycle.

I ride my bike 365 days a year in Michigan. Almost nothing I've done in my life has made me happier, but I guess I'm pretty weird.

I ride my bike 365 days a year in Michigan. Almost nothing I've done in my life has made me happier, but I guess I'm pretty weird.

I would be happy if I could ride my motorcycle 365 days a year in Utah. But my 25lb bike is a bit easier to handle on ice than an 800lb motorcycle.

How many kickbacks do all of you "Heh, cager" and "Heh, dogie" thunderfarts get from Karl Rove and Dick Cheney and the rest of the petroleum lobby each month to make sure that other people who honestly think we should shift away from car culture will look like hypocrites and dopeyheads to the rest of the public?

This thread makes me want to strangle my friends. I hope the cars you pretend not to own are out at the curb, because if you're really on your bike I'm going to catch you and berate you and slap your "I guess we're really too stupid to design effective propaganda, so this will have to do" heads.

Morons. Go back to your cool video games -- do all your immature name-calling there -- and leave the rest of us bikers alone to repair the damage you've done and actually engage the too-confusing-for-you work needed to build a coalition of people to actually fight for a car-free future.

Too bad "Car-Free Living" turns out to be the playpen on bikeforums.net where those most interested in discrediting walking, biking, and public transportation rest their lardy, counterrevolutionary asses.

Oh, you dogies, you cagers.

Not wounded?

Neither are the folks you are chasing with these ridiculous, pathetic names.

They are not free to go places on roads that are blocked by traffic for miles... And when they arrive whereever they're going, there is the whole parking issue... ;)

Gridlocked in a steel cage. That sounds like a prisoner to me.

Gridlocked in a steel cage. That sounds like a prisoner to me.

hardly. I get paid by the hour to drive my truck, the company has outfitted it with A/C, CD/mp3, Telus MIKE radio, plus air cushion leathe rseats, 12 volt cooler for my lunch and cold water/pop. Coffee card for Starbuck. Big whoopy if i had to sit in traffic all day. I still get paid and i get to do it in style. Then once im home, i get on my bike and go for a ride. Best of both worlds!

My only issue (repeated for the 3rd time in as many days) is that the attitude of some in LCF towards motorists could be seen as offensive to nearly every member of the forums. I want more members participating here...

Oh, no, not again! More BF net-nannyism.

For what it's worth, I do own a car. I'm going car light, however, and one of the best places to get information on life sans auto is this forum. I've never been afraid to post here, or harassed for owning a car. I think at times, and for some of them "at times" is constantly, moderators on BF are afraid controversy will scare away folks. Come on, we ride on roads alongside 18 wheelers, cabs, SUVs, etc. Do you really thinks words will hurt us? Someone can call me cager all they want if it makes them feel good.

There's hostility in all of the forums - mtb vs roadies, roadies vs commuters, etc. What are you expecting?

I take it you're wanting the people whose hobby depends on driving their bicycle to a designated starting point to feel comfortable in a car-free forum... I'm sorry, but that just seems ridiculous to me. As someone with no intentions of being car-free, or even car-lite, I'm still unsure how you ended up here.

If this is just an attempt to protect the revenue stream, then just shut it down and be done with it.

How did I miss this post? Perhaps Firefox has an "Ignorance filter"?

This has just gone horribly horribly wrong and it keeps getting worse. I'd like to vote this the biggest train wreck of a thread in LCF history. :(

edit: *Since I have been reading here anyhow.

This has just gone horribly horribly wrong and it keeps getting worse. I'd like to vote this the biggest train wreck of a thread in LCF history. :(

There's been worse.

I think I will back out slowly now, and send Donnamb, my LCF diplomat, in next time.

How did I miss this post? Perhaps Firefox has an "Ignorance filter"?

I wish, but no such luck...

Maybe you fell off your high horse for a second and missed it. Glad to see you found your way back on.

-----------

Ask yourself why you care about making a forum full of driving people feel comfortable in a car-free forum... then please explain it to us.

I wish, but no such luck...

Maybe you fell off your high horse for a second and missed it. Glad to see you found your way back on.

-----------

Ask yourself why you care about making a forum full of driving people feel comfortable in a car-free forum... then please explain it to us.

Sorry, no horse.

Ask yourself if you're happy to be here with a handful of other members, or if you would like to see more motorists give up their cars (even part time) and join you. Or is it something deeper?

I wish, but no such luck...

Maybe you fell off your high horse for a second and missed it. Glad to see you found your way back on.

-----------

Ask yourself why you care about making a forum full of driving people feel comfortable in a car-free forum... then please explain it to us.

Oh, SNAP!

Actually, this little tiff is amsuing me. I probably identify myself first as a roadie, and yes, I own a car; but my car sits and gathers dust six or seven days per week. I go to hammer fest training rides on my bike and never understand the people who strap their Colnago's onto the top of their cars and drive ten blocks to get to the start. Yes, I occasionally drive to a group ride if my total mileage for the day would put me well over 100 miles; but it's very rare that I do that. I'm always trying to find a way to drive less and use my bike more. I see no reason why training for road bike racing and being car-lite or carfree should be at odds, but it often seems they are.

My one problem now is grocery shopping. I refuse to leave my bike chained up outside. All I have is the roadie, which is about a $3,000 bike. Even though it's insured, I'd be crushed if anyone stole it and doubtful that I'd get what it was worth from the insurance company.

I don't understand why someone with such a vitriolic tone towards our negative attitudes about cars and auto-addicted society would come in here and make the responses he has... as a moderator, nonetheless. Negative attitudes are really never attractive, but it shouldn't be a surprise that most of share these opinions as people who are trying our best to be carfree. It just seems strange to me.

Yeah, it's amusing, but it's also kinda sad. This is a good forum. I find a lot of positive, encouraging, energy here. There is a lot of negativity here, but it's not serious. This thread started out by proposing an innocuous alternate to the term "cagers..." well look, I know, it's all in good fun. But we're proposing a term by which we can take a bunch of people and reduce them to one characteristic... is that good fun? Name-calling is a nasty child's idea of fun.

One thing that's dawned on me lately is how much all these cars are like simple minded herd animals. They're potentially dangerous, but with a firm hand and a few slaps they get along just fine. You just have to keep an eye on them. When I treat the cars like cattle we all seem to get along better. Indeed, I've been surprised how responsive they are to a firm hand directing them to one place or another. You just have to be consistent and clear.

So instead of "cager" I suggest we start calling the creatures cattle or dogies. And telling them to get along.

Am I the first person to note the word "doggies" is spelled incorrectly in the subject line? :-)

Sorry, no horse.

Ask yourself if you're happy to be here with a handful of other members, or if you would like to see more motorists give up their cars (even part time) and join you. Or is it something deeper?

Brian, do you really think use of the word "cager" in LCF will deter folks from reducing or eliminating their car use?

This has just gone horribly horribly wrong and it keeps getting worse. I'd like to vote this the biggest train wreck of a thread in LCF history. :(

edit: *Since I have been reading here anyhow.

But one of the most revealing about some posters' mindset; plus it was the catalyst for a trenchant observation on this issue by an infrequent poster, Takara at: http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=5216984&postcount=72

Am I the first person to note the word "doggies" is spelled incorrectly in the subject line? :-)
It's a word from cattle country. A dogie (long o) is a calf that's separated from its mother.

Look here:

1) Cars kill people, thousands of them every year.

2) Cars belch filth into the air, the air that I breathe (and you breathe it too).

3) Cars use up unrenewable resources (which means we're saying to future generations, for example, "You need oil for some reason or other? Tough ****, we used it all up!!!")

4) Cars contribute to global warming.

5) Cars use up much space (parking garages) and are a nuisance even after they're disposed of.

6) Did I mention that cars kill people, thousands of them each year?

The term, "Dogies" is actually far too polite.

^^^^
Now that is the kind of post that Brian was trying to make it seem every thread is all about here. :eek:

Look here:

1) People kill people, thousands of them every year.

2) People belch filth into the air, the air that I breathe (and you breathe it too).

3) People use up unrenewable resources (which means we're saying to future generations, for example, "You need oil for some reason or other? Tough ****, we used it all up!!!")

4) People contribute to global warming.

5) People use up much space and are a nuisance even after they're disposed of.

6) Did I mention that people kill people, thousands of them each year?


fixed

fixed

You sure did, but... the thing is... People are the problem, okay, but we're all people, and we're not trying to change that (well, I'm not, anyway). People have created another problem: cars. People have created the solution: bikes. The problem would start to go away if people would turn to the solution more.

Herman47 is right about cars. I just don't see how calling each other names is supposed to help anything.

^^^^
Now that is the kind of post that Brian was trying to make it seem every thread is all about here. :eek:

Maybe it just seems that way; few are about bicycling.

I would like nothing more to see everyone get along.

That would take purges and reeducation camps.

Am I the first person to note the word "doggies" is spelled incorrectly in the subject line? :-)

Ummm... actually it is spelled correctly.

Dogie = motherless calf

What I find fascinating is how acceptable it is for those in the mainstream to belittle those of us who ride bikes instead of cars. Unless we're high end racers or sportsmen, we're considered freakish or immature. And any effort to point out the absurdity of car culture is met with intense hostility. If you suggest a car is like a cage, you're accused of being elitist. If you suggest a car costs too much, you're told to grow up.

Well boyos, the sad fact is cars do not = freedom. Maybe they did in the fifties when the freeways were all wide open, but you don't have to step too far outside the mainstream to see that cars ARE effectively cages. Cages that routinely go slower than my broad behind does on my clunky bikes because they're stuck in traffic and I'm not. I don't hate drivers. I've logged more miles behind the wheel than most people ever will, in some of the worst driving conditions on the planet. But I do hate car culture, and I don't see any reason why we should avoid attacking it out of fear that we may upset people who drive.

The proper term for someone stuck in a cage is NOT, however, "cager." It's PRISONER. And upon reflection that's probably the term that suits drivers and passengers best. They're literally prisoners in a locked, overheated cars. And they're figurative prisoners in the broader sense, locked into inefficient and increasingly expensive lifestyles of long commutes and social isolation. I admit I'm deeply hostile to that entire lifestyle. I don't want to get along with it. I've been getting along with it for too long. I want it to END because it's destroyed much of my country and made too many of us into fat and weak shadows of our former selves. That doesn't mean we need to have some sort of purity test or ride hard on people who are car lite instead of car free. ANY LITTLE STEP IS GREAT! But I don't think we should lose sight of the basic principle that the car is not the future. The goal is not coexistence and mutual respect. I cannot respect a nasty, filth-spewing pile of steel that covers my land with pavement and hundred acre parking lots. If someone's personal identity is so tied up with their car that any attack on the vehicle becomes an attack on them, that's their problem not mine. I think it's called Stockholm Syndrome.

Well boyos, the sad fact is cars do not = freedom.
...
Cages that routinely go slower than my broad behind does on my clunky bikes because they're stuck in traffic and I'm not.


Just how big are the traffic jams in Spenard and Anchorage?


The proper term for someone stuck in a cage is NOT, however, "cager." It's PRISONER. And upon reflection that's probably the term that suits drivers and passengers best. They're literally prisoners in a locked, overheated cars.


You misunderstand the literal meaning of the word prisoner. Or maybe the meaning of the word literal. Hard to say from my vantage point.


I cannot respect a nasty, filth-spewing pile of steel that covers my land with pavement and hundred acre parking lots.


Here, you're at least on the right track. If people actually had to pay directly for car infrastructure (as opposed to indirectly through general taxes), things would be a lot different. Too bad being anti-car is political suicide.

If someone's personal identity is so tied up with their car that any attack on the vehicle becomes an attack on them, that's their problem not mine. I think it's called Stockholm Syndrome.

Incorrect.

Your post is the epitome of the knee-jerk anti-car crowd, that cannot seem to admit that cars are essential to our current economy and way of life. Sure, car use could be reduced, and I applaud those who make such efforts, but ranting against the evil "cages" or "prisons" or whatever you want to call them is comically Quixotic.

What I find fascinating is how acceptable it is for those in the mainstream to belittle those of us who ride bikes instead of cars. Unless we're high end racers or sportsmen, we're considered freakish or immature. And any effort to point out the absurdity of car culture is met with intense hostility. If you suggest a car is like a cage, you're accused of being elitist. If you suggest a car costs too much, you're told to grow up.
If we want to see the day when cyclists are respected as part of the traffic, we have to make some efforts to make it happen.

It starts by cycling. When we demonstrate by our lifestyles that bicycles provide practical transportation for real-life circumstances, people will notice. They'll notice if we're commuting to work, if we're riding home with groceries in a backpack or panniers. They'll notice if we're cycling to events and meetings. And they'll notice if we continue to ride in the rain, cold, snow and wind.

In a world that has been jaded by doom and gloom messages and by the scare tactics used by some peak oil and climate change people, our message has to be positive and possible. But this is a sermon that will be preached without words. It will come when we practice car-free and car-light transportation.

It's already happening in some communities. Portland, Oregon and Victoria, B.C. both come to mind as cities which have reputations as bike-friendly communities. More will follow eventually.

Until then, keep riding. People will notice, even if you don't say a word.

I'll tell ya'all what...since some of you dislike the vehicle so much, let me know who, and i'll stop picking up your garbage, i'll stop delivering your groceries to the store, etc. You can deal with your waste and sourcing out your groceries yourself.

:)

I'll tell ya'all what...since some of you dislike the vehicle so much, let me know who, and i'll stop picking up your garbage, i'll stop delivering your groceries to the store, etc. You can deal with your waste and sourcing out your groceries yourself.

:)

I love silly, absolutist rhetoric like this. I don't think anyone here thinks that we're all going to go back to everything being done by horse and buggy. My (and many others') views are simply that we should not be pimping out our entire lives, including killing our cities, to make way for the personal automobile. Most of teh rest of the world doesn't ***** out their entire existence to cars. Why should we?

Well, the term "Cager" is usually used in a derogatory manner, yet I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of the forums 87,000+ members own and drive motor vehicles. So you tell me what's appropriate, ok?
I have tried to participate to some extent all over the forums, and I'm generally unwelcome in the one forum that sees the least amount of participation.

Why don't they like you over at electric bikes?