Touring - phil wood freewheel vs freehub rear?

thinking about building up a beefy phil wood wheelset for touring. im biting my tongue enough thinking about how much its going to cost, but as pricey as it is, i want to get the most out of it. question is, is it worth spending more than twice as much for a phil freehub rear as opposed to a freewheel rear? is servicing that much easier? are they at all stronger or of better quality? any reasons why i should choose one over the other?

and this is besides being able to run a 9 speed on the freehub. i am totally fine running 7, 8 or 9 speeds.

If it were me I'd save money and go with a traditional hub, which is far less likely to blow the minds and parts resources of bike shops in small towns. But both will work just fine.

If it were me I'd save money and go with a traditional hub, which is far less likely to blow the minds and parts resources of bike shops in small towns. But both will work just fine.

I'd disagree. Most small town shops will not have the now esoteric freewheels. Cassettes will be easier to find just about everywhere. And I've had far less problems with freehubs then I've ever had with freewheels.

You are on the right track with the Phil hubs. I would go cassette for the reasons mentioned above. I have a couple of bikes that still have freewheels on them...guess what is getting harder and harder to find? I am building up an low buck expedition bike and am seriously considering sinking about 1/2 my budget into upgraded wheels with a cassette. FWIW the wheels I have are fine but it is running a 6 speed Suntour freewheel:eek:

Aaron:)

well i dont think its hard to find freewheels. QBP has a bunch in there catalog. im more worried about strength and maintenence. like will i have to remove the freewheel often just to replace the bearings? will i have to overhaul a freehub? do freewheels break (not the hub but the freewheel itself)? does one or the other have less drag? any comments on that?

Believe me freewheels are getting hard to find, it is rare to find one in a shop anymore, they usually require a special order. I think that freewheels and cassettes are equally dependable. The cassettes are much easier to work on IMHO. Also if you are like most riders you will wear 2-4 cogs more than the others, it is much simpler to pull down a cassette and replace those cogs than tear down the freewheel. I rode transcontinental in 1977 on a Motobecane Nomade with a 5 speed Atom freewheel, no problems.

Aaron:)

There was a thread last year on this very topic..... in fact, it was one of the few times Sheldon Brown himself visited us: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=178786

Word from the experts is that it's much better to go with freehubs, the design provides a much stronger axle. That is, unless you're already locked in to maintaining a stable of freewheels and parts.

-- Mark

I just fininshed the ACA Southern Tier with Phil Wood hubs laced to Mavic T520 rims. The front had 40 spokes, the rear seven speed freewheel hub had 48 spokes. Even with a too heavly loaded bike I never had to give the wheels a thought! The wheels finished the 3,125 miles as true as when they began. As for maintnance, these are Phil Wood, the best made! They have over sized axles! They ain't going to bend. You will put 30,000+ miles on these hubs before they need maintenance. As to seven speed freewheels, I have absolutely no problem obtaining them and they are cheap.

I think a lot of the responses so far, are correct as far as they go, but miss the/a point, which could be:

1) It's the Phil hubs, stupid. To paraphrase Carville.

2) If you go with the freewheel it should be because you want freewheels for the superiority of the system. And if you understand that argument you will probably carry a spare freewheel on a major haul.

It would be fine to say that the Shimano freehubs (FH) are more reliable than Shimano freewheel hubs (FWH). But on what planet are Shimano FHs more reliable than Phil FWH with a hardened axle? In what world is the average FH more reliable than a 40 or 48 spoke Phil FWH, or what about the 145 mm Phil FWH. The nearest thing there, is the Shimano tandem hub, and it's a pig. Phil still sells both styles because... I guess he stands behind both of them.

For me the "downside" to the Freewheel could be that it is getting harder to get good stuff over 7 speed. For me 7 spped is actually an advantage in chain beef, and some other factors. Obviously if you want a 30 speed this is not the system. But then we are possibly going to have to fight for our system either way. Touring FHs keep getting kicked up the ladder to where the 9 is now the norm and the 10 is moving in. So finding the real stuff is probably a boutique proposition either way. Sure getting a new cassette in 8 is pretty easy though scavenging freewheels is sometimes easier still. But finding touring gears say 13-34 is tough all over my neck of the woods I had to get them mail order. That weirds me because one local shop has racks full of 2-4K MTBs but I couldn't get over 30 for my tourer. My favorite LBS makes both custom touring bikes, and has their own 4130 Taiwan line, no 8 speed over 30 cog.

Freewheels are more difficult to do some repairs on, but one comon hub failure is the pawl, and that is in the freewheel itself not the hub, so that is one situation where you may be better off. Though, you need to find decent quality freewheels to have all the other moving parts up to snuff. Also finding bar ends etc... that will work with the freewheels may be a problem.

The Phil freehub is very heavy, which is one reason not to buy it. I don't really mind the price, having splashed out on Rohloff, the Phil in either form now looks cheap.

It is true that freehubs are stronger in terms of bearing placement, and axle protection, but neither has been a problem in Phils. The reality is that the Shimano freehub is the response to a weak design that Phil fixed over 30 years ago. That's why Phil is a bike household name. It's assbackwards that the Phil freewheel hub is made obsolete by the freehub!! LOL!

As far as the best value for the money, it's impossible to beat Shimano parts. Start with a 36 spoke hub (LX, XT, 105, even Tiagra) and get good touring rims. The reasons are price and the ablity to get parts/repairs done at almost every bike shop. It's a good bet that a bike shop might have an 36 hole Sun rim hanging in the back room. There's no chance they have a 40 hole rim. The same with bearings and cones for Shimano hubs. Or a new free hub body, or even an new MTB 8 or 9 speed cassette. It's quite possible to take parts off a used hub to get back on the road with and there is no shortage of used MTB hubs out there.

Phil Wood hubs are the best made and are very easy to service, but the parts aren't cheap or easy to find (but you could find a sorce and use FedEx-- that's a reasonable solution for a tour).

Most prebuilt touring bikes have a strong, long wheelbase frame built up with a mix of standard road and MTB parts. There is a good reason for this. Building a touring bike in a different way will cost more and turn into a massive pain in the ass.

With that said.......I'm hiding a pair of NOS Maxicar hubs in my sock drawer for some future pain-in-the-ass bike project. You see I'm addicted to complex, crazy non-standard Shimano bike builds. And I professionally understand that these builds can cost more money and not work as well, as say, buying a shiny new Fuji.


good luck and have fun!

"tacomee"

I basically agree with all your points, and share the obssession, and the willingness to pay for my own mistakes. My fallback is this. If my rear wheel, costing 350-1200, packs it in, which should be a one in a million, and I find that bike shop with all the parts everyone believes is out there, then I will simply put on a new wheel. Cut the spokes away from the Phil hubs and ride away.

One thing about touring is that in many instances it is a low mileage proposition. I used to put 100 miles a week on my Nishiki, comuting. I still have it and it must be over 20 years old. I was doing some work on a similar comuter that a friend has. A very old Norco. The grease was so hard it was clicking in the hubs. A bike that gets used for a week or two a year touring is just not taking that much of a beating. And if it's a comuter/tourer, I wouldn't feel safe locking it up on the street with all polished parts. There is the odd person who really needs the super parts, the guy who claims to do 3000 miles a month. The rest of us are just buying a little insurance, or have found something a lot less expensive to spend our money on than a Harley. Some Harley guys have spent more money just upgrading their chrome, than my lifetime cycle budget...

well i dont think its hard to find freewheels. QBP has a bunch in there catalog. im more worried about strength and maintenence. like will i have to remove the freewheel often just to replace the bearings? will i have to overhaul a freehub? do freewheels break (not the hub but the freewheel itself)? does one or the other have less drag? any comments on that?

A freehub has the bearings mounted further outboard which makes for a stronger wheel. Freehubs are much easier to remove if you have to replace a spoke (if you turn the lockring in the right direction:o). If something goes wrong with the freehub, replacing one is easier then a freewheel.

To remove and replace a freewheel, you really need a vise or a long handled wrench. The hub tightens as you ride so they can be a real bugger to get off. Often, even with a vice, I'd have to apply some real muscle to get the freewheel loose.

The problem I commonly had with freewheels was the outer ring would work loose. If it happened to come completely off, the little bearings inside would spill out and the ride was over. I still carry a 16 penny nail that I used to tighten the outer ring on a regular basis (and I haven't used freewheels in 15 years;))

All-in-all, the freehub is just a better mechanism. Yes the Phil is expensive but it's well worth it. If you are going to go the freewheel route, look on Fleabay. They come up there from time to time and are cheaper.

If wheel strength / longevity is critical, then you may want to choose the PW fsa hub over the fsc. The fsa will build into a stronger wheel than the fsc, due to the more inboard location of drive side spoke flange on the 8-9-10spd shimano compatible fsc.

In fact, a 135mm OLD fsa hub, combined with an offset drilled rim (alex, bontrager, velocity), will build into a nearly (only ~1mm off center) dishless wheel.

The fsa hub costs less than half that of the fsc hub too.

http://www.lickbike.com/productpage.aspx?PART_NUM_SUB='1912-25'

Peterpan1 wrote: "It is true that freehubs are stronger in terms of bearing placement, and axle protection, but neither has been a problem in Phils. The reality is that the Shimano freehub is the response to a weak design that Phil fixed over 30 years ago. That's why Phil is a bike household name. It's assbackwards that the Phil freewheel hub is made obsolete by the freehub". LOL![/quote]

The case is perfectly stated, Bravo!

There was a thread last year on this very topic..... in fact, it was one of the few times Sheldon Brown himself visited us: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=178786

Word from the experts is that it's much better to go with freehubs, the design provides a much stronger axle. That is, unless you're already locked in to maintaining a stable of freewheels and parts.

-- Mark

Amusing! -- Sheldon says, sure, cassettes are better technology than freewheels, but then indicates that a $35 freewheel beats everyone if the goal is getting on the road and having some money in your breast pocket if there's a thunderstorm at sunset.

In other words, yes -- the two approaches are insignificantly different at solving the problem of letting you tour using a derailleur switching gears on your rear wheel.

Which sets up the question: Would you like to have ten motel rooms' money in hand instead -- for ten motel rooms, or ten adventures? Sounds more important to me than what you shift back there under your rack.

"Which sets up the question: Would you like to have ten motel rooms' money in hand instead -- for ten motel rooms, or ten adventures? Sounds more important to me than what you shift back there under your rack."

Or looked at differently you can get the Phil freewheel hub for the cost of a tank of gas, sad to say.

The marginal cost is one hotel room. An LX is a good value hub, but it still costs something and the marginal difference is 1-2 stays in a hotel three evasote mats, 2 tires. It seems to me that way back when I first saw Phil's on a trip from Toronto to look at better equipt bike shops in Buffalo aroun 1973, It seems to me it was 100 bucks then, or maybe 75. Now it costs 120.

"To remove and replace a freewheel, you really need a vise or a long handled wrench. The hub tightens as you ride so they can be a real bugger to get off. Often, even with a vice, I'd have to apply some real muscle to get the freewheel loose."

Maybe they need to develop a drop out that the freewheel tool could be mounted in so the whole bike would be a wrench. Sounds more useful than one of those spoke carriers, would probably open a beer also.

go with a freehub & cassette system, freewheel is not as quality, strong, easy to find, or easy to remove.

Cassette is a superior system.

I suspect the reason Phil is still even selling freewheel hubs is he's stuck with them in the warehouse. Clearing out his NOS, so to speak.

"go with a freehub & cassette system, freewheel is not as quality, strong, easy to find, or easy to remove. "

Since the OP is all about Phil, I doubt there is a quality difference in the hubs though durability issues have been raised about the cassette hub. There can be quality and supply issues in the actual freewheels and cassettes for sure and I bought my freewheels first to be sure the quality and gearing type was what I wanted. The freewheel hubs are clearly strong enough in the Phil line, there isn't any reason to be stronger than strong enough.

As far as removal is concerned, in Phil, the bearings will probably last, the axle is hardened, If the pawls go then it's probably an easier fix with a freewheel. Maybe some people just like taking their clusters off, but in general one probably won't have to. If the freewheel is properly maintained it's not that difficult to remove. Or if one is the kind of person who likes badly built wheels so one can replace a lot of spokes, then the freewheel will probably be off often enough to keep it from jamming, or one could choose to use a technique that does not require removal.

I'm not going to choose an LX freewheel hub over one with a cassette, I guess Shimano has already tipped us off that their earlier stuff was crap, though my mtb/commuter has been running an LX freewheel for almost 20 years... There isn't any particularly adverse price or weight consequence with the Shimano stuff.

"maybe some people like taking their cluster off, but in general one probably won't have to?" WHAT kind of nonsense is that?

....I guess if you don't ride your bike much, peter..... cassette replacement is a REGULAR occurance, even if you replace chains regularily as well.

despite being wrong about cassette replacement, you're right, peter, shimano axles are weaker than Phil's, but I can't see why that would encourage a bicyclist to buy freewheel versus cassette freehub Phil Woods.

However, peter is wrong again about the servicability of phil freehub bodies versus non specific freewheels.....The pawls in a Phil cassette freehub body are remarkably easy to service, peter. 10 mm hex, springs and 3 pawls, thin oil.... taking apart a Sun or Shimano freewheel, not so quick and easy.

the only new freewheel clusters out there are not well made, or offer variety to the rider that a cassette freehub does. With a cassette freehub, you can choose ANY 7, 8, 9, OR 10 speed cassette and run them ALL on friction ... no worries about finding a six or seven speed freewheel in 12-28 or 14-32.

the insistence to use a freewheel is really out to lunch in my opinion.

I too am looking to build up a sturdy rear wheel for my newly built touring bike. To get it ready to roll I snarfed a 32h Mavic Open Pro w/ DA hub and have been commuting on it but that wheel won't cut it for touring. As usual I've found the information in this thread very enlightening and was wondering if anyone had an opinion about Chris King hubs. Are they as good as Phil Wood's? I know King makes an awesome headset - both my bikes sport King headsets. Thanks!

does Chris King offer a multispeed freewheel ;) rear hub?

(I actually bet he does for BMX bikes, but that's another story...)

""maybe some people like taking their cluster off, but in general one probably won't have to?" WHAT kind of nonsense is that?

Don't wear yourself out. I don't seem to break much stuff and I haven't had to do any major repairs on the road. A lot of touring is low mileage compared to bikes that run lesser mileages, but every day. So my concern with touring bikes is that they be bulletproof for that 1 or 2 K trip. Beckman who claims to have done endless amounts of 3K months pushes the two systems about equally.

"....I guess if you don't ride your bike much, peter.....

That is correct, I just tour, which may well be also what others do with their touring bikes. I also hack around with the kids, but not on my touring bike. I have sorta 1.5 legs to work with and I find the tempo of touring works well for me. It hurts less if I keep moving. I seem to keep up to other tourists equally loaded, or maybe 10% less.

"cassette replacement is a REGULAR occurrence, even if you replace chains regularily as well."

You do this by the side of the road? Well I stand corrected. For myself I am more interested in avoiding that kind of thing on tour. So far I seem to be making the right choices. If you go back to the first comment you parsed, that was the kind of behaviour I was talking about: lots of fiddling by the side of the road on parts that are really great, lots of replacements required, and lots of replacements available. Or you could just get some stuff that didn't break in the first place. Buy American, even if it's a Canadian saying it!

"despite being wrong about cassette replacement, you're right, peter, shimano axles are weaker than Phil's, but I can't see why that would encourage a bicyclist to buy freewheel versus cassette freehub Phil Woods."

It wouldn't necessarily. But see if this works, this time. They are both sufficiently strong in the axle area. Stronger than "strong enough", is not required. So if one reason for the shimano cassette system was to allow the bearing more outboard so as to make up for the weak shimano axle, that isn't something one needs to worry about on the Freewheel Phil, and you can turn your attention to the fact that it is: Lighter, doesn't have the weak aspects of the cassette shell, costs less, if that is important.

"However, peter is wrong again about the servicability of phil freehub bodies versus non specific freewheels.....The pawls in a Phil cassette freehub body are remarkably easy to service, peter. 10 mm hex, springs and 3 pawls, thin oil.... taking apart a Sun or Shimano freewheel, not so quick and easy."

Actually my point was that swapping the freewheels was easier than what you propose. None the less I appreciate your thoroughness in responding to points I didn't make.

"the only new freewheel clusters out there are not well made, or offer variety to the rider that a cassette freehub does."

Right, but who cares. As I mentioned start with the freewheels, and don't buy the hub if your scavenging skills aren't up to finding the NOS you need. You can still find quite a few bikes with them to scavenge on the road. I get asked to fix stuff aroung my neighbourhood, and I think that, conservatively, 50% of the houses have at least one freewheel in them. You can carry an extra in your pannier for what the Phil freehub weighs extra, and that is rotating weight, somewhat. I know it is hard to beleive in the US, but here in a city of countless millions I could't source a cassette over 32, or over the last few days a decent front rack. I buy what I need and prefer not to rely on strangers, or bike shops that will have to get product from the US in the first place before they ever send it out to me.

"With a cassette freehub, you can choose ANY 7, 8, 9, OR 10 speed cassette and run them ALL on friction ... no worries about finding a six or seven speed freewheel in 12-28 or 14-32."

There is no question that they are more available. Nobody doubts that. Some people just like the old stuff for those advantages it has. Others might find a Phil Freewheel hub a better option than any shimano, and they may not want the cost weight or mechanical issues of the super hubs in freehub format. But good luck convincing everyone to do as you do, is there a T-shirt yet? I am only here pointing out the options, not telling people what they have to do. I leave that in your capable hands.

I couldn't ride a bike from about '97 to '05. During that period (and whatever period there before since I bought a bike) I missed the whole freehub roll out, and you know, it didn't hurt a bit.

dude, whatever.

you admit to several points about the superiority of a freehub cassette system. well said, peter.

being an old fogie that likes old stuff doesn't make the antique better, it makes you a curmudgeon.

"does Chris King offer a multispeed freewheel rear hub?

(I actually bet he does for BMX bikes, but that's another story...)"

Well also of interest is the apparent fact that he doesn't offer touring hubs, or speak of touring on his website. Not to say those aren't colourful hubs, and wonderful for something.

"being an old fogie that likes old stuff doesn't make the antique better, it makes you a curmudgeon."

Not if you are speaking English.

My main purpose is to address the OP's question of whether it was worth paying the upgrade, and whether the Phil freehub is "stronger, or of better quality" than the freewheel hub. On stronger and quality the correct answer is in my view obviously "no". The rest of it is basically a mater of what set of features you want.

In most mechanical things there are usually more than one design solution available, In bikes, apparently there is never more than one correct solution, though it changes every year. Things that make me go "Hmmm", and others perhaps a little gullible.

To the OP. because it is quite pointless to debate the superiority of cassette freehubs over antiquated freewheel systems with peterpan (the tourer that never grew up)

if you want a hub that will go the distance, will stay contemporary in the coming decades, gives you the most gearing options options, is easily servicable, and makes replacing clusters easy (as it is at least an annual occurance if you ride a fair bit)

go with the cassette system, you'll be glad you did in the long run.

Amusing! -- Sheldon says, sure, cassettes are better technology than freewheels, but then indicates that a $35 freewheel beats everyone if the goal is getting on the road and having some money in your breast pocket if there's a thunderstorm at sunset.

That's not what I read. Maybe I'm wrong but I read that a 35$ LX freehub was better than a 140$ Phil freewheel.

"That's not what I read. Maybe I'm wrong but I read that a 35$ LX freehub was better than a 140$ Phil freewheel."

Yeah, I think he said that though the high pricing is Harris' contribution to the argument...

He said in his intial salvo:

"They're also best for touring because replacement parts are available anywhere, and there's a much better range of cluster size options available for them."

And that is mostly true. But you either want the available sizes in freewheel or you don't so that argument is moot. And the other argument is mostly on the "it's breaks so fast, good thing there are lots of replacement parts availalble at my shop to fix them with" point. Since I don't seem to live in parts heaven, or work at a bike store, a thing some other folks on this thread share with Sheldon, I look for the stronger parts to start with. Sheldon is very knowledgeable, but everyone has those features they want, and make decisions around. Apparently 40 or 48 spoke counts aren't important to him. Apprently hardened axles aren't important. I'm not here to say those things should be on the list. But I do think it is possible to move up from LX if you want to.

I have read the coments of others like Beckman who don't agree with him on the Phil freehub thing as far as touring is concerned.

It's clear the Phil parts are a premium product. Without shimano biking wouldn't be what it is today, if LX didn't work. But the premium hub market is growing, as people push bikes to extremes in various activities. Possibly one reason the LX looks so good is a lot of hard users bailed long ago. In most cases though, touring is a smooth use not a hard one.

Whew! You look away for a day, and all hell breaks loose . . .

To repeat myself from the first reply:

Both will work just fine.

Preexisting maladjustment excluded, rear axle/gear cluster breakdown is simply not a significant problem on a tour. Never has been, never will be. Almost any other spot on your bicycle is more likely to give you trouble or otherwise make you mad out there.

Now I know that not having enough money to tour would depress me a great deal more than touring with less-than-perfectly-excellent equipment. In my present economic circumstances, this is a real consideration. Those of you with enough surplus to afford the very, very best have my respect (and I'm dependent upon you for used parts, anyway!).

We all value riding around on our bikes, and I think we can all agree that many miles of riding were forsaken to this discussion. Let us hang our disagreeable heads together in shame over our common maldistribution of resources here. I'm doing an overnight tour this weekend in penance!

Speak for yourself. I'm off riding for the next few weeks, and hope against hope to further prove that LX hubs will work for that purpose.

" it is quite pointless to debate the superiority of cassette freehubs over antiquated freewheel systems with peterpan (the tourer that never grew up)"

Well given your comments on the Svea 123... more than your wheels must be spinning!

Just a note, I am not debating the general question you outline, but the differences of two specific parts. I leave the field of gross generalization to your exclusive comand.

let's see, one big advantage to a cassette freehub is it lets you run a 7,8,9, or 10 speed cluster which WILL be available at any bike shop. being limited to a very few choices in 6 or 7 speed freewheels IS limiting.

that factor, in and of itself, makes a cassette system more practical. a better value, more bang for ones' buck over the long run.

why are you NOT riding your 'superior' phil freewheel rear wheel on this trip, peter?

"To remove and replace a freewheel, you really need a vise or a long handled wrench. The hub tightens as you ride so they can be a real bugger to get off. Often, even with a vice, I'd have to apply some real muscle to get the freewheel loose."

Maybe they need to develop a drop out that the freewheel tool could be mounted in so the whole bike would be a wrench. Sounds more useful than one of those spoke carriers, would probably open a beer also.

Kind of a moot point now isn't it. Let's face it, the freewheel is dead. As dead as 27" wheels, as thumbshifters, U-brakes, threaded headsets and ordinaries. Not that there was anything wrong with those...well, except U-brakes;)...but they have been passed by. Getting any kind of freewheel now is about as easy as getting any of those other things. Some are out there, some new ones are being made but, for the most part, you aren't going to be able to find anything of quality anymore. Nor is there much selection out there. You just can't find the range that you can with cassettes.

Other issues to consider are shifter/speeds compatibility. You might be able to find an 8 speed freewheel but there are only a few indexed 8 speed shifters available. If you go with less, your shifter selection is even poorer. Of course, if you use friction shifting that's not a problem but, honestly, index shifting is an improvement that I wouldn't want to give up.

Although cassettes have never lived up to their true potential (customization of cassettes should be simple and easy but it isn't), they are superior to freewheels in many respects. Removing a lock ring on one is simple compared to freewheel removal. That makes roadside and shop repairs much simpler. The little tool that allows for on-road removal of the lockring works much better than anything I've ever seen for a freewheel. Changing gears on a cassette is very easy compared to the old freewheel method which required nearly as much brute force as removing the freewheel from the hub.

I wouldn't throw out a threaded Phil but I wouldn't buy a new one. I'd spend the extra money (I have already;)) for the freehub. It makes for fewer headaches.

[QUOTE=cyccommute;5233796]Kind of a moot point now isn't it. Let's face it, the freewheel is dead. As dead as 27" wheels, as thumbshifters, U-brakes, threaded headsets and ordinaries. Not that there was anything wrong with those...well, except U-brakes;)...but they have been passed by. Getting any kind of freewheel now is about as easy as getting any of those other things. Some are out there, some new ones are being made but, for the most part, you aren't going to be able to find anything of quality anymore. Nor is there much selection out there. You just can't find the range that you can with cassettes.
Of course, if you use friction shifting that's not a problem but, honestly, index shifting is an improvement that I wouldn't want to give up.QUOTE]

Man, am I ever out of date!
All my bikes have freewheels - work fine.
My two touring bikes have 27" wheels - work fine.
The same two have friction shifters and my mountain bike has thumb shifters and a U-brake - all work fine.
I literally have a pile of spare freewheels, enough to last the rest of my riding life. Have I ever had a freewheel fail? No. Are they hard to change out? No. Think "Never-Seize" on the threads.
Am I going to fret as I happily ride thousands of trouble free miles on my obsolete bikes? Nope. You can bet your life I won't even be thinking about it.

CharlesC does have a point--- the old stuff still works well enough. Many of us have old school bikes and parts. They are lots of fun to ride and fix.

But honestly, I wouldn't spend any real money on old shool bikes. I wouldn't spend $150 for a freewheel, Phil Wood or not. I'd run a freewheel I dragged out of a dumpster or bought at a swap meet for 5 bucks, no problem. It's very possible to buy an old MTB at a yard sale or pawn shop and tour on it for very little money. (If I had limited funds I'd go cheap for an older used bike and spend cash for top shelf camping gear)

But I do believe that the O.P. is planning to drop a lot of cash on a touring bike. (and it's really not a bad investment in my opinion) A freewheel isn't a good choice for a high end build. Peanut butter and jelly sandwitches don't go with steak--- lobster does!

"let's see, one big advantage to a cassette freehub is it lets you run a 7,8,9, or 10 speed cluster which WILL be available at any bike shop. being limited to a very few choices in 6 or 7 speed freewheels IS limiting."

If they only made chocolate flavoured milkshakes that would be limiting for some...

"that factor, in and of itself, makes a cassette system more practical. a better value, more bang for ones' buck over the long run."

That may well be true, shimano wide. Not sure it solves the original question, of which to buy, the Phil or the Phil.

"why are you NOT riding your 'superior' phil freewheel rear wheel on this trip, peter?"

I don't get to go to places like South Africa, or Tibet for my touring, so I like the adventurous side of riding crap gear and seeing what happens. I have been riding my LX freewheel bike this past week if that counts. I don't notice any significant difference in the shifting vs, my LX touring bike.

I recently noticed that the price of the Rohloff hub had jumped 200 US in the spring, and so I jumped on the last of the sub 1K hubs I could find at the time. Not sure if that was a wise move or not, but the all Phil upgrade path is now a Rohloff one. At least in the rear. Some day I will get that done. I do have a good supply of Freewheels though...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"Getting any kind of freewheel now is about as easy as getting any of those other things. Some are out there, some new ones are being made,"

OK, well that does sound sufficient. I wonder about the rest of the world where obsolescence creeps along more slowly. I notice that SJS has a good selection, and they ship all over the world to touring clients. I have snapped up a few from Nashbar over the years. They had some medium quality ones, which are probably all that was ever speced on my various OEM bikes.

" but, for the most part, you aren't going to be able to find anything of quality anymore. Nor is there much selection out there. You just can't find the range that you can with cassettes"

SJS (first place I looked) has several priced over the price of the Phil freewheel hub! I guess they might be good, since they also sell them for about 1/10 that price. It isn't necesarry to find the "range", since all one needs is some good ones for a touring bike. I'm not entering the tour de france.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


My feeling is that a lot of the claims about these hubs from their detractors don't survive the first contact with reality. It's also passing strange that the more touring focused an organization is the more likely they are to be connected with freewheel hubs. SJS, Phil, Beckman, good company. Might just all be stranded stock, but that still kills half the objections.

Doubtless in the biz, the bike shop, the magazines, the freewheel is dead. But in the real world, the one touring bikes actually ride through, they made millions of them for decades. Disposing of them is probably a bigger problem than finding them.

One tip to pass on is that if you look at Thorn and Beckman they are on the cutting edge of touring and are fairly supportive of the 26" wheel. While there is a wide range of freewheels of all types, one common type is the mega range where the drop into the granny gear is a long one, say 26 with the next ring a 34. However if you run a 26" wheel you can often go as big as 28 for the low gear and on those freewheels the spacing is smoother. You can find something for 700c but it is probably easier for 26" at the moment. If you buy in advance, it doesn't matter, what you want is out there. The very least one could do is find who sells replacements.

"But I do believe that the O.P. is planning to drop a lot of cash on a touring bike. (and it's really not a bad investment in my opinion) A freewheel isn't a good choice for a high end build. Peanut butter and jelly sandwitches don't go with steak--- lobster does!"

Well he might to avoid the weight of the freehub, and the fragility of the shell. One thing that gets overlooked is that this is a complex, not a simple solution. If a person was nuts enough to look at my posts on this subject over a few years, you would find that it isn't easy to find a good freehub candidate. One camp holds the shell is fragile on the Phil, that the mechanism is much stronger on the DT. So I lauded that for a while, fishing for contrary views, and I got them! Ever wonder why a hub needs more than a dozen engagements in one case, could it be it isn't holding up to the loads on the shell? There are more things happening with freehubs once you lift the hood. As far as I know we don't have those kinds of problems with the old tech. And not all of the freehubs have all the Shimano patent features, they may not need them, but I imagine some people are buying hubs because they think they have outboard bearings, when they don't.

yeah, peterpan, your love for phil wood freewheels is definetly apparant in your unceasing adulation for old school 7 speed gear clusters and 'half-step' gearing combinations. However, the world progresses, bike tech advances, 9 speed wide range 11-32 or 11-34 gearing is the current touring 'standard', and bikes are not going back to 6 and 7 speed freewheels except in dirtcrappy walmart builds.



.....
But honestly, I wouldn't spend any real money on old shool bikes. I wouldn't spend $150 for a freewheel, Phil Wood or not. I'd run a freewheel I dragged out of a dumpster or bought at a swap meet for 5 bucks, no problem......
A freewheel isn't a good choice for a high end build.


yep, i agree.

Man, am I ever out of date!
All my bikes have freewheels - work fine.
My two touring bikes have 27" wheels - work fine.
The same two have friction shifters and my mountain bike has thumb shifters and a U-brake - all work fine.
I literally have a pile of spare freewheels, enough to last the rest of my riding life. Have I ever had a freewheel fail? No. Are they hard to change out? No. Think "Never-Seize" on the threads.
Am I going to fret as I happily ride thousands of trouble free miles on my obsolete bikes? Nope. You can bet your life I won't even be thinking about it.

That's the issue here, isn't it. You have a "pile of spare freewheels" but most people don't. Most bike shops don't. You can ride on 27" wheels and use freewheels but you also have to search much harder to find them...if you have to...then those of us using more modern equipment do. Personally, I'd hate to have to find a new freewheel and/or 27" wheels and/or 27" tires in Clarkston, ID or Council Bluffs, IA. Heck it's tough enough to find those in a major metropolitan area like Denver.

As for removing the freewheel, I always lubed the threads but removal of a freewheel isn't something that can be done, easily, on the road. Even at home it takes more effort...and muscle...to remove a freewheel than a cassette lock ring. It has to. The very nature of the beast is such that simple pedaling will tighten the freewheel on to the hub. And you tightened it on with a longer lever arm and more weight then your arms can develop. Implying that freewheel removal is a simple or as easy as removing a cassette lock ring is just silly.

" but, for the most part, you aren't going to be able to find anything of quality anymore. Nor is there much selection out there. You just can't find the range that you can with cassettes"

SJS (first place I looked) has several priced over the price of the Phil freewheel hub! I guess they might be good, since they also sell them for about 1/10 that price. It isn't necesarry to find the "range", since all one needs is some good ones for a touring bike. I'm not entering the tour de france.



You can find lots of freewheels that are in the Tour de France range. The "range" that I was talking about is the range of gears for a loaded touring bike...something with a 34 tooth low. Those aren't that easy to find as higher geared freewheels. Range doesn't just mean the high gears but the whole...um...range from high to low gear;)

That's the issue here, isn't it. You have a "pile of spare freewheels" but most people don't. Most bike shops don't. You can ride on 27" wheels and use freewheels but you also have to search much harder to find them...if you have to...then those of us using more modern equipment do. Personally, I'd hate to have to find a new freewheel and/or 27" wheels and/or 27" tires in Clarkston, ID or Council Bluffs, IA. Heck it's tough enough to find those in a major metropolitan area like Denver.

What anxious nonsense. You can buy 27" tires at WalMart and K-Mart, and it is practically a condition of licensing that a bike shop have a drawer of old freewheels . . . and a drawer of old centerpull caliper brakes, and a drawer of old seat clamps, and so on.

If you think a bike shop in Clarkston, ID or Council Bluffs, IA is going to know what to do with your $300 fetish freehub in the extremely unlikely event that it needs servicing on a tour, you're deluding yourself. I think you're much more likely to find yourself forking over $25 for a used 27" wheel with a freewheel there and sticking your fancy wheel in a box to send home.

And here's the part that's really going to blow your mind: If you don't look down and back, you won't be able to tell the difference.

What anxious nonsense. You can buy 27" tires at WalMart and K-Mart, and it is practically a condition of licensing that a bike shop have a drawer of old freewheels . . . and a drawer of old centerpull caliper brakes, and a drawer of old seat clamps, and so on.

If you think a bike shop in Clarkston, ID or Council Bluffs, IA is going to know what to do with your $300 fetish freehub in the extremely unlikely event that it needs servicing on a tour, you're deluding yourself. I think you're much more likely to find yourself forking over $25 for a used 27" wheel with a freewheel there and sticking your fancy wheel in a box to send home.

And here's the part that's really going to blow your mind: If you don't look down and back, you won't be able to tell the difference.

I have news for you: The bike shops in Clarkston, ID have all the things that the bike shops in Denver have! Stuff like mountain bikes...even new models...like 2008 models with modern derailer systems and modern brakes, etc. And modern road bikes. Why, they even get their stuff via shipping companies like FedEx and UPS. The stage no longer services places like that. It hasn't for about 100 years. They even have such modern stuff as telephones, real electric lights and, gasp, computers! Heck, they may have even heard about that new fangled metric system out there.

Any shop that still carries freewheels and 27" probably has buggy whips in the attic...and there is about as much call for them. Shops don't carry stuff that doesn't sell. Most of them...the smart ones anyway...will have jettisoned that stuff long ago...selling it at a discount to people who still use those buggy whips. Let's face it, the day of the freewheel is at least 10 years out of date and probably closer to 15. Why carry a bunch of junk you can't sell?

And, finally, if something goes wrong with my 'fetish hub' in the middle of nowhere, I'm not going to be riding down the road on a used 27" wheel with a freewheel. I'll either buy the proper wheel or I'll have a replacement FedEx'd to me overnight and I'll be on the road in the morning.

If you want to stick with old equipment and spend the time and effort to find parts to keep it running, feel free. I'll stick to new stuff (within reason) that's simpler to install, repair and maintain. And, when I look back, I'll know that if something happens, I can fix it with a minimum of effort.

What anxious nonsense. You can buy 27" tires at WalMart and K-Mart, and it is practically a condition of licensing that a bike shop have a drawer of old freewheels . . . and a drawer of old centerpull caliper brakes, and a drawer of old seat clamps, and so on.

If you think a bike shop in Clarkston, ID or Council Bluffs, IA is going to know what to do with your $300 fetish freehub in the extremely unlikely event that it needs servicing on a tour, you're deluding yourself. I think you're much more likely to find yourself forking over $25 for a used 27" wheel with a freewheel there and sticking your fancy wheel in a box to send home.

And here's the part that's really going to blow your mind: If you don't look down and back, you won't be able to tell the difference.

I'm currently running Wal Mart 27" tires on my touring bike - you can see the little Bell symbol by the valve stem on the front wheel. I replaced my old gumwall IRC High Pressure 100 psi tires with these 90 psi tires. Guess what? They are faster riding, smoother and have more traction. They are also a bit wider and handle occasional dirt roads here in New Mexico like they were made for them. BTW, this old bucket is one of 15 custom bikes I silver brazed together in 1975 thru 1977. It's still a reliable comfortable old school ride.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b397/CharlesC_1940/CJCammackbike.jpg

If you want to stick with old equipment and spend the time and effort to find parts to keep it running, feel free. I'll stick to new stuff (within reason) that's simpler to install, repair and maintain. And, when I look back, I'll know that if something happens, I can fix it with a minimum of effort.

Hear, hear, Cyccommute! That's your choice, and a halfway astute description of mine. That's OK.

What's not OK is justifying your high-end approach by posting flat-out wrong information about what is and isn't available in Middle America.

I will grant you that, if your Phil Wood freehub breaks in Council Bluffs, Iowa, the bike shop will be able to order a replacement for you, and you'll be stuck there for two days at most.

If you hang around the shop while you wait, you'll be able to watch them work on the small-town bikes that get brought to them for repair: WalMart cruisers, Huffys and Rosses and Schwinns, garage-sale mountain bikes, and cool old ten-speeds from the 1970s and 1980s. The guy is not going to have to run to the attic for freewheels -- the supply will be much closer at hand, because he deals with this kind of stuff every day.

Now, I probably have as much fun sneering at expensive gear connoisseurs as you have sneering at shabby fellows like me, so no foul there.

But let's be clear: People with humble bikes who'd like to tour come to this forum for information, and it would be a bloody tragedy if they decided to go car camping, or stay home and watch TV, because of the false impression that they would have a rotten and/or dangerous time if they didn't buy $300 hubs or the equivalent.

Hell, no two touring bikes I have ever owned added up to $300, and I've had a wonderful time! To each his own. But don't freak out new riders by suggesting that they'll barely live to regret it if they can't buy fetish equipment on your budget.

I'm currently running Wal Mart 27" tires on my touring bike - you can see the little Bell symbol by the valve stem on the front wheel. I replaced my old gumwall IRC High Pressure 100 psi tires with these 90 psi tires. Guess what? They are faster riding, smoother and have more traction. They are also a bit wider and handle occasional dirt roads here in New Mexico like they were made for them. BTW, this old bucket is one of 15 custom bikes I silver brazed together in 1975 thru 1977. It's still a reliable comfortable old school ride.

Nice bike, CharlesC! I think I have the same Sakae-branded Biopace triple crankset on my present touring bike (a late 70s/early 80s Raleigh Gran Prix I bought at a thrift store for $60). I'm using those same 27" Bell tires, too. They say on the sidewall that they're 1 1/4" wide, but I agree that they seem a bit wider. I bought them for $6 apiece at a farm supply store in rural Wisconsin last spring (they also had 26" mountain bike tires and 20" tires for kids' bikes, but nothing else). I barely see wear after something like 1,500 miles, including a couple hundred on Wisconsin's packed-gravel Rails to Trails system, on which they performed very nicely.

You can find lots of freewheels that are in the Tour de France range. The "range" that I was talking about is the range of gears for a loaded touring bike...something with a 34 tooth low. Those aren't that easy to find as higher geared freewheels. Range doesn't just mean the high gears but the whole...um...range from high to low gear;)

Shimano currently sells a number of freewheels, up to 34t.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/freewheels.html#7

The real truth is that in the US there is absolutely no problem finding anything. If you can't find whatever you want before you leave, you're stupid. You can still get an original 1873 Winchester rifle from any number of online sites, and all kinds of new wiz bang parts to make it better than ever. Can't find bike parts from 1973, you're a drooling, blithering idiot. 1993, you probably aren't trying, at all. (this is the general "you")

The universal response to looking for anything touring related, new or old in any bike shop from one end of Canada to the other seems to be "we can order that for you". One would think that the rear hub might be the universal exception to that rule since all these places sell tons of mountain bikes, but no, I can't get a 34 cassette anywhere either, sure there must be one somewhere, but 6-10 shops and no luck so far. In some places you are looking at a few good shops a province. Every single part for my next, in process, touring bike has been ordered from the US. In my life there is zero advantage to the freehub, parts wise.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"You can find lots of freewheels that are in the Tour de France range. The "range" that I was talking about is the range of gears for a loaded touring bike...something with a 34 tooth low. "

Well I don't think SJS is in the Tour de France business, I haven't seen many Thorns on the starting line. As mentioned, if you are pushing the right wheel you don't need that dinner plate sized cluster anyway, which is an advantage. They sell 34s both mega range, and smoother steps.

Speaking of the "right wheel", Canondale has a 26" tourer in it's euro line-up. Ever get the feeling you are riding a vintage bike yourself, CC?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The bottom line is that the Freewheel hub is a stronger, cheaper, lighter part. The only part of the freehub that has any claim to being stronger etc... is the outboard bearing, which not all of them have, and is mainly of interest because Shimano for some reason won't spend a dollar for a hardened part. Here we have a technological marvel that has upped the part cost 100-200 dollars on the super hubs in order to save a buck. The hardened axle doesn't weigh an ounce more, let alone 8 ounces.

On the clusters, the Cassette probably is better, but only at the cost of the crappy hub.

On technology, like index shifter compatibility, it is totally legitimate to want all that stuff, and it is totally legitimate to feel that, as with brifters it's a liability. We have to live in the real world of what is actually out there, however the freewheel could have kept up better if Shimano hadn't dropped it. There seem to be a lot of non sequiturs about it not having the right notches for index shifting and therefore the hub is a poor design, which really ought to be too embarrassing to state.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


There are apparently lots of conspiracy theories out there. Some charitably say Phil just sells freewheel hubs because they are stacked up in his warehouse; others say Shimano only introduced the freehub to squeeze the competition out. There may be good reasons for the freehub in other fields. Maybe an outboard bearing and a hardened axle is the key for "base jumping" an MTB at MOAB. I don't know or care. I do know that with the majors it never has anything to do with how it will play out on a touring bike.

"BTW, this old bucket is one of 15 custom bikes I silver brazed together in 1975 thru 1977. It's still a reliable comfortable old school ride."

Nice!! Do you remember what the offset on the fork is and the rake of the head tube?

"yeah, peterpan, your love for phil wood freewheels is definetly apparant in your unceasing adulation for old school 7 speed gear clusters and 'half-step' gearing combinations. However, the world progresses, bike tech advances, 9 speed wide range 11-32 or 11-34 gearing is the current touring 'standard', and bikes are not going back to 6 and 7 speed freewheels except in dirtcrappy walmart builds."

You really are the last of the independent thinkers! What exactly does "the touring standard" mean, and why would I care? Phil hubs, the subject of this thread, are not the touring standard either. Try to get at least to the beginning of this thread by the time the show is over. Sure every year someone has to spec out the cattle craft, and they look at what has the hype, is largely unproven, and what is cheap. They put on completely unrealistic ratios, they assemble outmoded geometries and wheels, and they call it "good". Then it is the job of people in the industry to explain why every decision, no mater how haphazard, was an inspired act of genius. And when the job is done, they break for a Happy Meal at McDonalds.

While slaving at the gear calculator, I am reminded of the famous scene in Spinal Tap where the guitarist explains that one particular amp is better than another because it's volume switch "goes to 11". It hit me that in most cases that is the pick-up on the now iconic, and widely superior 9-speed cassette: ITGOES TO 11!! Hey dudes your gears go to 11, how cool is that? I have to confess that I have been missing the ability to really drop the hammer and surge from 22MPH to 27MPH, while touring fully loaded. What I could do if I wasn't stuck with a 13 gog.

Hear, hear, Cyccommute! That's your choice, and a halfway astute description of mine. That's OK.

What's not OK is justifying your high-end approach by posting flat-out wrong information about what is and isn't available in Middle America.

I have not posted information that is flat-out wrong on what is and isn't available in the fly over states. I live here. I tour here. I've been to Council Bluffs and Clarkston and Astoria and Umatilla and St. Charles and Sioux Falls and Sioux City and La Junta and a whole host of dusty little towns in the middle of no where. The ones that have bike shops aren't some little back water village smithy where the calendars still read 1976. Most of the shops are probably less than 15 years old and carry modern equipment. Sure they fix old bikes but they also fix...and sell...new ones.

I never said anyone has to take a "high-end approach" to touring. What I said, in the beginning of all this crap, is that you shouldn't choose freewheels if you are building new wheels today. The availability of equipment is more of a hassle than most people would want to deal with. Why not choose modern equipment and save yourself some headache -and fatigoworld has apparently done that
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=341814.

You are the one who seems to have a problem with the "high-end approach". I've built my bike the way I want to build my bike. I have the money and feel that it's a priority to me to build it the way I want it. I didn't build it for you and, frankly, I don't really care what you ride. I could touring on a $300 20+ year old touring bike (I have one hanging in the garage) but I don't see the value in riding an old bike with old equipment just because it's old. No matter how nostalgic you get for old parts and old drive trains, none of them compare to the way modern stuff works. I've ridden the old stuff I know how well it did or, rather, didn't work. My new touring bike does things my old one would never do and does it with less hassle. I wouldn't go back.



I will grant you that, if your Phil Wood freehub breaks in Council Bluffs, Iowa, the bike shop will be able to order a replacement for you, and you'll be stuck there for two days at most.

If you hang around the shop while you wait, you'll be able to watch them work on the small-town bikes that get brought to them for repair: WalMart cruisers, Huffys and Rosses and Schwinns, garage-sale mountain bikes, and cool old ten-speeds from the 1970s and 1980s. The guy is not going to have to run to the attic for freewheels -- the supply will be much closer at hand, because he deals with this kind of stuff every day.

I've been there, like I said before. Council Bluffs isn't some bicycling back water with old bikes still wrapped in cosmoline. Most of the bikes sold there in the last 30 years came from the hardware store and have gone on to the county dump. Any bike shop there is probably (I didn't look for bike shops when I went through there in 2003 but I've been to plenty of small town shops) pretty new and never had those parts to begin with.


Now, I probably have as much fun sneering at expensive gear connoisseurs as you have sneering at shabby fellows like me, so no foul there.

I've never sneered at you about what you ride. I don't care. You seem to have a problem with people who spend more than you do on bicycles. It's not very becoming. Why not just accept the differences? After all, if everyone rode touring bikes that were 20 years old, they quit making touring bikes...Oh, wait. That's already happened, hasn't it?


But let's be clear: People with humble bikes who'd like to tour come to this forum for information, and it would be a bloody tragedy if they decided to go car camping, or stay home and watch TV, because of the false impression that they would have a rotten and/or dangerous time if they didn't buy $300 hubs or the equivalent.

Where have I ever said that? fatigoworld asked about Phil Wood hubs. He was given what I consider, based on available equipment, bad advice. I often suggest economical wheels and parts. I would never suggest that people go out and buy a $250 hub (you can find them for less than the $329 retail price) unless they really wanted one.



Hell, no two touring bikes I have ever owned added up to $300, and I've had a wonderful time! To each his own. But don't freak out new riders by suggesting that they'll barely live to regret it if they can't buy fetish equipment on your budget.

A little over the top don't you think? I have never, nor will I ever, said anything to that effect! And, frankly, I find your implications insulting. I suggest all the time that people buy equipment that they can afford (you can do a search if you like) and buy equipment that is easy to maintain and adjust in the field. If you have a problem with how much I've spent on my bikes, then that's your problem. Quit sneering at me just because I ride a bike with expensive parts. Frankly, it's none of your business what I ride or how much I spend on it.