Advocacy & Safety - Is a bicycle inherently safer than a motorbike?

If you drive a motorbike slowly, are you any more likely to fall off than if you drive a bicycle?

Here are the factors I'm wondering about:

1) Is it mostly speed that makes the motorbike dangerous? If you drive it as slowly as a bicycle, is it as safe as a bicycle? But maybe, a motorbike can't be driven as slowly as a bicycle, because its greater weight requires more speed to remain stable? So, due to that, a motorbike is inherently more dangerous, because it REQUIRES greater speed in order to maintain its gyroscopic stability?

2) I wonder, does a motorbike fall harder than a bicycle falls, because of its additional weight? But then again, a bicycle rider sits higher above the street than a motorbike rider, so maybe the bicycle rider falls harder? Does the faster speed of a motorbike make the bike fall harder? Together with its additional weight?

3) Why do I just FEEL I am safer on a bicycle? Is it just because I've never driven a motorbike, and my fears are unfounded? Or is it just all the publicity about motorbike danger? Or is it simply that a motorbike tempts you to drive faster?

What are the physics of this? Thanks for any wisdom.

Males on motorcycles are much more likely to die than females, suggesting that rider behavior is probably a big part of motorcycle safety.

Males can be boneheaded on bicycles, too, but our risk taking choices are limited by the much lower horsepower available to bicyclists.

But then again, a bicycle rider sits higher above the street than a motorbike rider, so maybe the bicycle rider falls harder?

Is this actually true?
I wouldn't have thought so.

I believe the two biggest factors contributing to the increased danger on motorbikes compared to pedal bikes are (1) increased speed in the direction of travel when hitting objects or the ground in a crash or fall, and (2) increased probability of collision at junctions due to longer stopping distances combined with reduced visibility time and reaction time.

If you drive a motorbike slowly, are you any more likely to fall off than if you drive a bicycle?

Here are the factors I'm wondering about:

1) Is it mostly speed that makes the motorbike dangerous? If you drive it as slowly as a bicycle, is it as safe as a bicycle? But maybe, a motorbike can't be driven as slowly as a bicycle, because its greater weight requires more speed to remain stable? So, due to that, a motorbike is inherently more dangerous, because it REQUIRES greater speed in order to maintain its gyroscopic stability?

2) I wonder, does a motorbike fall harder than a bicycle falls, because of its additional weight? But then again, a bicycle rider sits higher above the street than a motorbike rider, so maybe the bicycle rider falls harder? Does the faster speed of a motorbike make the bike fall harder? Together with its additional weight?

3) Why do I just FEEL I am safer on a bicycle? Is it just because I've never driven a motorbike, and my fears are unfounded? Or is it just all the publicity about motorbike danger? Or is it simply that a motorbike tempts you to drive faster?

What are the physics of this? Thanks for any wisdom.


Im sure you have ridden where you can not really go faster than say 5 or 10 mph for a small stretch. at low speeds bikes tend to get more and more wobbly. Basically the heavier a 2 wheeled vehicle is the faster it needs to go to want to stay up right. So a massive harley will need to move faster to want to stay up and at lower speeds you need to work more to keep it up right.

Try this some time.

Ride your bike down the road at say 2 mph then back to your house at what ever speed you want now repeat at say 10 mph. How much more work do you need to do to keep upright at 2 mph compared to 10 mph?


So are motorcycles inherently more dangerous than a bike? Sure because if you crash with a heavy motorcycle at 25 mph it will hurt worse than a bike at same speed. By hurt worse i do not mean as in hospital stay v no hospital stay. I simply mean it will hurt worse as in pain wise. I seen a guy crash a sportster at around 55 60 trashing the bike but walked away with minor road rash with out any special riding gear.

I have spent a good deal of time both on motorcycles and training others to ride safely. In my personal opinion, I feel safer and have many fewer "close calls" on my motorcycle than on my bicycle. I think this is because it is much easier to ride the motorcyle with the flow of traffic in the manner that most of the automobile driving public is used to (motorcyles behave much more like cars than bicycles).

Motorcycles are also usually equipped with soft-sticky tires, good suspensions, and large brake rotors. It is my opinion that a skilled motorcycle rider will proform better evasive moves than a bicycle rider. The motorcyclist also has the rarely used option of hard acceration just not possible on a bicycle.

While the motorcycle is less likely to crash, it will usually inflict greater injuries if it does happen. I have broken a bone on a touring motorcycle when riding off road and catching an edge trap. The sheer weight of the bike was enough to inflict the injuries I would have just laughed off on a bicycle.

Just my .02
Scott

Motorbikes are cool - I love draggin my pegs through turns in the middle of intersections .....

As an avid cylist and motorcyclist who's ridden more than a quarter million miles and had some pretty spectacular mishaps, I feel qualified to answer.
In traffic a motorcycle is MUCH safer than a bicycle. In my years of dodging close-calls on a motorcycle, I have come into contact with exactly 0 other vehicles. However, I have been struck by three cars while bicycling so far.
In addition to travelling at similar speeds as the surrounding traffic, motorcylists also have more directional control and most importantly, LIGHTS. All three of my car-vs-bike accidents were by drivers who looked directly through me.

In all other circumstances, a bicycle is probably safer than a motorcycle.
http://www.calamarichris.com/images/061110-lolita.jpg
Broke three ribs, lost about a square foot of skin from my hip, knee & thigh and ruined a brand-new helmet in this low-side, but at least my dog was unhurt.

Peace!
-CCinC

.but at least my dog was unhurt.[/i]

Peace!
-CCinC


Where the hell was the dog ?

If you drive a motorbike slowly, are you any more likely to fall off than if you drive a bicycle?*snip*
1) Is it mostly speed that makes the motorbike dangerous? No, If anything you're less likely to fall while riding a motorcycle. The forces a motorcycle generates to keep upright are much stronger than those of a bicycle, and it's much harder to give the bike an input that could cause you to crash. For example, when I was young, I was able to twist the handlebars fast, and hard enough to cause the front tire to skip off the ground. Ultimately with the effect of getting my front tire perpendicular to the direction of travel. This requires superhuman effort on a motorcycle.

Yes, in most cases it is the speed that makes a motorcycle more dangerous. However the energy of the combined bike and rider is much greater with a motorcycle. If it's a situation where the bikes energy is dissipated through the rider, a 300-700lb motorcycle is going to put a lot more energy into your body and hurt you a LOT more. Even at slow speeds you're dancing with a 400lb dance partner. Imagine if a 400lb woman stepped on your foot with high heels on.

To address your gyroscopic point. Gyroscopic forces only provide damping for the bicycle system. They do not provide righting force. That is, if you have wheels with no mass, (or if you need a real world example, skis) a bicycle or motorcycle is still stable. If anything I have just as easy of a time creeping my motorcycle at 2mph as I do riding my bicycles at 2mph.


2) I wonder, does a motorbike fall harder than a bicycle falls, because of its additional weight? A fall from 33" off the ground is the same as a fall from 33" off a table, a chair, a bicycle, or a motorcycle. However as mentioned earlier, if the energy from the cycle is transfered to you... you can be thrown further. If you need an example, hop on youtube and type in "highside" and watch the riders fly.

Speed doesn't kill. Last year a rider departed his bike at 180mph. He slid to a stop. It took him a while to stop ... but the rider was up and on his motogp bike by the next race. Riders die by hitting things before they've stopped sliding. Same goes for a bicylist as a motorcyclist.


3) Why do I just FEEL I am safer on a bicycle? Is it just because I've never driven a motorbike, and my fears are unfounded? Or is it just all the publicity about motorbike danger? Or is it simply that a motorbike tempts you to drive faster?

What are the physics of this? Thanks for any wisdom.Maybe you haven't crashed a motorcycle. :-) When riding my bicycle I am constantly haunted by the desire to wear my riding gear and really go at it. Most motorcycle wrecks happen at speeds that are easily achievable on a bicycle. My first real wreck was at 40-50mph in a hilly area. My second was 15mph in the woods. Both shattered bones.

The illusion of safety comes from the weight of the machine. A 20lb machine doesn't instantly demand respect the same way a 400lb motorcycle does. One oops on a motorcycle, even in the garage, and you can have a shattered ankle. ( I know of at least one person who's done that...) Drop a 20lb motorcycle and your first thought is "did I scratch my pedals."

I'm not sure they make high heels that'll hold a 400 lb woman.

Where the hell was the dog ?
http://www.calamarichris.com/images/050313angelcurve1opt.jpg
She's ridden more than 55,000 miles. And she was more freaked out by the screaming red truck and large yellow men who came running out of it than she was by the crash.
It was kinda comical in a way; two of them in the poofy yellow firesuits chasing her around in circles, hopelessly incapable of catching her. I'm sitting on the curb, holding my broken ribs, trying not to throw up, whispering as loudly as I can, "NO! Stop! Leave her alone."
After chasing her around for several minutes, the two huge firemen finally shrugged at each other, "Huh...She must be okay if we can't catch her."

And sometimes we take her nephew along too:
http://www.calamarichris.com/images/060305-angbudride.jpg

...

And sometimes we take her nephew along too:
... [/img]


Dude, that is so wild !

You should see some of the dog/biker pics on www.killboy.com

In a bicycle pace line, I and a couple of buddies werer hit by left turning car. I was going too fast downhill on my bicycle in Mt Evans CO and I ran into the side of a mountain. I've taken out a couple of driver side mirrors and ran into a door that was opened (accidentally) in my path.
I rode about 5000 miles on my motorcycle (in Vermont) wihtout crashing. I did have to swerve to avoid a left turn merging teen age driver.
I agree with just about everything said so far.

Motorcycle
Advantages - larger presence in any lane in roadway, able to move at same speed of cars, acceleration, brake lights, turn signals, full face helmet, leather jacket.
Disadvantages - weight, momentum, hot moving parts,

Bicycle
Advantages - relatively low speed, less likely to be seriously injured in self crash.
Disadvantages - relegated to right side of roadway most of the time.

The stats in Phoenix, AZ in 2005:
506 Car - Motorcycle collisions, 461 injuries, 26 deaths
480 Car - Bicycle collisions, 436 injuries, 11 deaths, 138 out of the 436 injuries in riders younger than 17.
269 collision involved cyclist riding against the flow of traffic.

32,113 Car - Car collisions, 18,324 injuries, 90 deaths


It certainly depends on how YOU ride your motorcycle bicycle. if you ride like a moron on either, you're gonna have problems. I have great confidence in my cycling abilities and I know the techniques I need to use when I'm riding motorcycle or bicycle. Take the Motorcycle Safety Foundation basic rider course. great for new riders who have little experience.

I think your fear of motorcyle because you haven't been on one is reasonable.

Once you get a ride on a motorcycle or buy one, your fears will gradually disappear.

In general, I feel alot safer on a motorcycle than I do on a bicycle.

In general, I feel alot safer on a motorcycle than I do on a bicycle.

Wut Kemmer sed !

I feel much safer on an MC.

I agree with everyone else...MCs can generally fit in with traffic better than bikes, and have a more obvious presence. It's less likely that drivers will turn in front of them because they don't see them coming, and stuff like that. But if it does happen, results will be uglier.

This is slightly OT (okay, really OT), but Calamarichris, how do you like your Ninja? I'm thinking about getting a 250cc Ninja for my first bike. I wanted a sportsbike, but since I'm about 0 ft tall, I can't fit the "real" sportsbikes.

I believe the two biggest factors contributing to the increased danger on motorbikes compared to pedal bikes are (1) increased speed in the direction of travel when hitting objects or the ground in a crash or fall, and (2) increased probability of collision at junctions due to longer stopping distances combined with reduced visibility time and reaction time.



Good points. Also...motorcycle helmets obscure your vision and obliterate your hearing, in contrast to bicycle helmets; if you even wear the latter.

roughstuff

This is slightly OT (okay, really OT), but Calamarichris, how do you like your Ninja? I'm thinking about getting a 250cc Ninja for my first bike. I wanted a sportsbike, but since I'm about 0 ft tall, I can't fit the "real" sportsbikes.
I've ridden both the 250 & 500 and I really think the 500 is a better bike than the 250. Yes, also a better beginner bike. If you ever need to ride on the freeway (which is a nice convenience sometimes) the 500 will do it quite easily, where the 250 really has to scream to keep up with traffic.

Despite owning several larger, faster bikes, I bought my third Ninja 500R last December and named him Gumby:
http://www.calamarichris.com/images/061210-sue.jpg
~STELLAR mileage: 67.66mpg is my record on a tankful so far, and I have yet to get worse than 50mpg--which is even better than most of the 250's average. (?!?)
~Dirt cheap to insure and maintain. (I have an Unfinished Valve Adjustment Guide (http://www.calamarichris.com/ex500/valveadj1.htm) on my website.
~Aside from color, Kawasaki has not changed a single thing on this model since 1994, so parts will always be cheap and plentiful on ebay and in salvage yards.
~The engine is based on (and even shares many components with) Kawasaki's solid Concours engine, which regularly last more than 100,000 miles, (in a few cases more than 200,000.)
~The riding position is comfortable enough for extended multi-day tours from San Diego to Whistler, BC and back (http://www.calamarichris.com/05britcol-1.htm).
~The table-top gas-tank is the very best surface on which to carry foo-foo dogs, pizzas or crates of chickens.
~It will handily smoke any Harley you come across. (Only if you want to of course.) Indeed, whip them like rented mules.

This motorbike is a decent consolation to tide us over until technology enables us all to pedal at 75mph on freeways. If you're ever in the San Diego area, you're welcome to take Gumby for a spin.
-Chris in Carlsbad, CA
calamarichris@gmail.com

I expected this thread to be a dud. Even had my own opinion to offer - and I'll offer it in a minute (or less). But, I have to say I was surprised by the quality of the answers - and I learned a thing or two. Now, this may be rational or not, but, I have never owned a motorcycle. The thought of having one thrills me, but I have always felt that, had I owned and used one regularly, I'd probably be dead by now.

As an auto driver, there have been more than one occasion (especially in my younger days) when I drove whatever I was in as fast as it would go. Oh, sure, I exercised "caution" by doing my fast driving in relatively sparsely trafficked, wide open roads, but, depending on the car, I did drive fast (we're talking 135-145 mph). I got a ticket four years back doing 98 in a 55. No priors in that neck of the woods, so I got a fine and took an online driving school course sanctioned by the court to avoid penalties and further complications.

On my bike, even today, when the opportunity to ride fast presents itself, I just cannot resist going as fast as I can. A week doesn't go by that I don't reach downhill speeds of 45 - 50 mph. Again, I feel I'm being careful when I ride at those speeds, but, still, if some animal jumped out of the ditch in front of me at those speeds, I'm going to go splat in a major way (there are posts on this forum where animals ran into spokes and caused great calamity). My point is that, if I owned a motorcycle, I'd no doubt do the same thing on it occasionally.

On the freeway, it's not at all uncommon for me to be whizzed by some guy on a motorcycle fully committed at full speed (90 mph??) as he leans steeply into a curve. One unexpected bump in the road, some gravel, oil, or any need to quickly scrub speed or alter course, and that guy is simply a doomed.

I watched a fatal accident unfold on the PA turnpike one day. A cyclist was really cutting up, in and out of his lane, between cars, you name it at break neck speed. Some auto made an unexpected lane change and the guy went down, never to get up again.

Nah, I ride my bike because that is where I belong. Am I safer? Probably a little . . . who knows.

At least, when I wipe out (and I have a couple of times), I'll be in good physical condition.

Great thread. Glad that I took the time to read it. . . oh, and, whenever I see you guys/gals on your MC's, I really envy you.

Caruso

The stats in Phoenix, AZ in 2005:
506 Car - Motorcycle collisions, 461 injuries, 26 deaths
480 Car - Bicycle collisions, 436 injuries, 11 deaths, 138 out of the 436 injuries in riders younger than 17.
269 collision involved cyclist riding against the flow of traffic.




These stats are little deceiving because there are far more bicyclist on the road then there motorcyclists. So there are 436 injuries that were reported but how many were not? I suspect this number of 436 might be out of 5 or 10 thousand bicyclists while the 461 injuries are the result of several hundred motorcyclists.

It looks like there are 25 more motorcycle than bicycle accident but the figure does not state how many more cyclists are on the road. The Hurt Report gives a very grim view of motorcycle accidents in general.

If I'm not correct, many of the motorcycle accidents happen at night or during poor weather conditions. Mortorcycles and bicycles are not ment to be ridden at night.

Having said all this, I still want to try out motorcycling soon. I just like the freedom of going places and not being dependant on commuter rail lines.

If I'm not correct, many of the motorcycle accidents happen at night or during poor weather conditions. Mortorcycles and bicycles are not ment to be ridden at night.


Looks like my motorcycle riding is a contradiction, since all my motorcycle downings were during the daytime hours. My only reason that I can therorize is the fact that I rode my motorcycle at a higher rate of speed during the daytime.

Now, this may be rational or not, but, I have never owned a motorcycle. The thought of having one thrills me, but I have always felt that, had I owned and used one regularly, I'd probably be dead by now. This is the sort of maturity that most riders lack. And the sort that keeps those of us who aren't dead, alive. :-)


*going fast*On the freeway, it's not at all uncommon for me to be whizzed by some guy on a motorcycle fully committed at full speed (90 mph??) as he leans steeply into a curve. One unexpected bump in the road, some gravel, oil, or any need to quickly scrub speed or alter course, and that guy is simply a doomed. There is a lot you can do about most surface problems while on a bike. Wider tires seem to be more forgiving of changes in surface condition. While bombing through a ravine road up in winetka I had an interesting moment. As I came around the lowest corner, I ran into leaves. Not complete foliage, but the dust from a thousand cars grinding leaves into the ground. As I rolled on the throttle, the back tire spun and I was driving my motorcycle sideways for a good 30-40' before I could bring the back end back again. Gravel sucks too, but so long as you're not completely committed and you have some lean angle, and traction to spare, there are a lot of options open to you.

On a bicycle you do not have the option that is most helpfull on a motorcycle. Many, if not most motorcycle issues are solved by gently rolling on the throttle.


I watched a fatal accident unfold on the PA turnpike one day. A cyclist was really cutting up, in and out of his lane, between cars, you name it at break neck speed. Some auto made an unexpected lane change and the guy went down, never to get up again.

Nah, I ride my bike because that is where I belong. Am I safer? Probably a little . . . who knows.

At least, when I wipe out (and I have a couple of times), I'll be in good physical condition.

Great thread. Glad that I took the time to read it. . . oh, and, whenever I see you guys/gals on your MC's, I really envy you.

Caruso

This is why I don't leave my driveway without wearing my gear. I do everything i can to stack the odds in my favor. I don't lane split. I leave room to screw up on nearly every corner I take. It isn't worth getting hurt.


*good points about statistics*
If I'm not correct, many of the motorcycle accidents happen at night or during poor weather conditions. Mortorcycles and bicycles are not ment to be ridden at night.

Having said all this, I still want to try out motorcycling soon.

Motorcycles have headlights. Most of them are exceedingly good. Their headlights position in relation to the road means the light thrown by a bike is more effective than the lights on most cars. On a lot of bikes, the headlight is handlebar mounted, so it even points the direction you're going.

Bike accidents happen at night because of drunk middleagers riding their Red Blooded American Motorsickles home from the bar. The typical accident is someone driving straight when the road turns. There is invariably alcahol in the blood of said accident "victim".

As long as your goal is not to be Valentino Rossi, riding at night is, if anything, safer than riding during the day. I've never been blinded by the moon ;-)

Don't just "try one out" Go take the MSF. Learn properly.

Ive been riding MC's since '75.
Ive fallen in the dirt at least 4000 times and on the road twice.
Ive spent what would probably amount to hours over 100mph
but when I fell it was on Harleys both times going and about
35mph in broad daylite :eek:

Bah - I pass m/c and scooters just like they were cars - they are slower than bikes under my typical riding conditions. If higher speed is the safety factor, then the bike should be less safe, not more.

If m/c's are more manouverable than all bikes - howcome those bmx types can do all sorts of tricks on bicycles that I have not seen on m/c? I can ride down a few stairs, hop curbs and go downhill through dirt on my bike (HT mtb/hybrid with no shocks and slicks) - which I do not see from your average harley rider - nor did I see any motorbikes riding on slick ice last winter in Calgary, whereas I clocked 1000 + km on my mtb with studded tires. While dirt bikes can do some of these things - they are not street legal, and I still have not seen them out after an ice storm.

So far as I can tell m/c's are more expensive, slower (under my conditions), and far less able to deal with weather and obstacles than a simple, cheap bike.

I agree, however that top speed and acceleration for motorcycles is far higher than bicycles'.

There is a lot you can do about most surface problems while on a bike. Wider tires seem to be more forgiving of changes in surface condition. While bombing through a ravine road up in winetka I had an interesting moment. As I came around the lowest corner, I ran into leaves. Not complete foliage, but the dust from a thousand cars grinding leaves into the ground. As I rolled on the throttle, the back tire spun and I was driving my motorcycle sideways for a good 30-40' before I could bring the back end back again. Gravel sucks too, but so long as you're not completely committed and you have some lean angle, and traction to spare, there are a lot of options open to you.

Don't just "try one out" Go take the MSF. Learn properly.

Oh, I intend on taking the MSF course should I get the courage. However, you're post like many on the forum make me feel uneasy. It seems like all the motorcyclists have a horror story about how they fell off the bike. Like bicyclists, there are only two types of motorcyclists, those who fell off the bike and those who are going to fall off the bike. It's rare when you find someone who hasn't fallen off the bike.

Another vote for the Motorcycle Safety Foundation Course. http://msf-usa.org/

I remember very distinctly some of the things my MSF instructor told me in 1993:

"Due to their superior acceleration, braking and maneuverability, motorcycles are the safest vehicles on the road today."

<pause for baffled silence>

"...up to the point of impact."

ATGATT = All The Gear, All The Time!
http://www.calamarichris.com/images/040812-christnroad.jpg

I believe the two biggest factors contributing to the increased danger on motorbikes compared to pedal bikes are ... and (2) increased probability of collision at junctions due to longer stopping distances combined with reduced visibility time and reaction time.

Exactly where are you getting that motorcycles have longer stopping distances, reduced visibility, and reaction time? Stopping distances can be quite a toss up with different types of brakes, especially with the advances that have been made with motorcycles from the '70s to present day. As for reduced visibility the beauty of riding a motorcycle is you get to pick all sorts of variations in your lane position. Your job as said motorcyclist is to pick the position where cars will see you the earliest. You also should be wearing clothing / gear that will help people see you. Reaction times depends on the person. There's no reason it should be reduced just because you're on a motorcycle. You also have more maneuverability with said motorcycle. You can take escape routes that cars can't.

Collisions at junctions happen mainly because people (read: cars) either are looking through the motorcycle, or they think the motorcycle's going slower than they actually are and cut out in front of them. Either way, car or motorcycle, your job is to scan your surroundings, look for hazards, and have a plan ready in case something goes wrong.

If you could cite some actual sources where you're getting these things, it'd be more useful.


Good points. Also...motorcycle helmets obscure your vision and obliterate your hearing, in contrast to bicycle helmets; if you even wear the latter.

roughstuff

Eh? I'll say this to you, too. Where on earth are you getting that motorcycle helmets obscure the vision and obliterate your hearing? A full face helmet gives you all the field of vision you need, including peripheral vision. The only thing I could see obscuring your vision would be if you had a tinted visor at night. Then again, I kind of take that back. I had no obscured vision when I had a tinted visor at night. It actually helped me a bit.

Nor do they obliterate your hearing. They do muffle things such as voices a bit, but obliterate? Not even close. What does your hearing in is having a muffler a couple feet away from your head or 70mph wind. However, how is that really any different than being in a car? You have the radio going, maybe turned up loud. If you have people in the car, chances are they're talking. Cell phone conversations go on. If you have the windows down, you have even have the wind noise.

Bonus: If anything wearing a helmet helps your hearing. Exhaust systems can be loud, particularly when modified. Wearing ear plugs or other such ear protection saves your hearing from obliteration.


On the freeway, it's not at all uncommon for me to be whizzed by some guy on a motorcycle fully committed at full speed (90 mph??) as he leans steeply into a curve. One unexpected bump in the road, some gravel, oil, or any need to quickly scrub speed or alter course, and that guy is simply a doomed.

I watched a fatal accident unfold on the PA turnpike one day. A cyclist was really cutting up, in and out of his lane, between cars, you name it at break neck speed. Some auto made an unexpected lane change and the guy went down, never to get up again.Caruso

As a couple of people have said before, welcome to the idiots. If you ride a motorcycle like an idiot, then of course you're going to die or get injured if you're lucky. If you drive a car like an idiot, you, too, will die. If you ride your bicycle like an idiot, you will also be dying. It may sound a little cold-hearted, but to me that's natural selection. If the brain is not smart enough to protect the head and body it's in in every way possible, then why should anyone feel sorry for you?

To answer the OP, I definitely feel safer on my motorcycle than my bicycle. On a motorcycle I'm wearing a jacket with armor, a full face helmet, gloves, and boots in addition to having more surface area, a taillight, and a headlight. On my bicycle I'm tiny and to the side of the road with no jacket or such things to speak of.

Well I'm unlikely to fly off the road at 90mph on my bicycle.

I took a motorcycle safety foundation training course, got my license - but then other things in life happened and I didn't take it farther than that.

Interesting thread, most here are saying that they feel safer on a motorcycle than a bicycle. However, I've heard from some on BF - as well as others I've talked to - that they feel safer on a bicycle. You guys care to jump in and give your two cents?

I think part of the difference here is that the police and other drivers would never think twice about the concept of a motorcyclist riding anywhere in the lane - even if the motorcyclist is slower than other traffic. Yet these same people would think differently about bicyclists doing the same.

Exactly where are you getting that motorcycles have longer stopping distances, reduced visibility, and reaction time? Stopping distances can be quite a toss up with different types of brakes, especially with the advances that have been made with motorcycles from the '70s to present day.

Only as a function of speed, not vehicle type. Motorcyclists have higher average speeds at the locations where crashes for both types of cycles are most likely to occur. This requires longer time and distance to stop, and provides other drivers with a shorter window of time to notice them in order to yield.

I've had a couple of left-cross near-misses on my bicycle that I wouldn't want to experience at 10-20 mph faster on a motorcycle. Hopefully the motorcycle headlamp and faring would increase visibility and reduce this likelihood, but I don't know.

In any case, automobile-left-cross and automobile-drive-out collisions are the leading motor vehicle related collision types for both motorcyclists and bicyclists, but typically result in more severe injuries for the motorcyclists due to their speed. I notice a lot of such motorcycling fatalities in our local paper, including one involving a well respected motorcycle safety instructor, and the most recent bicyclist fatality in the county was a collision involving a motorist-drive-out where the cyclists' high speed on a downslope was probably a significant contributing factor.

Great thread. Admittedly, I commute the MC almost full-time and bike in on occasion.

I've been back on the bike for two years and have operated my first MC for one year. I have mixed feeling over which is safer. My family and friends worry the most about bicycle commuting. I'm more worried on the moto. I have awesome braking but at those speeds it takes some time to haul you down. You'd think less inertia would be faster to decelerate but as someone here said the friction co-efficient is not the same. A four-wheeled race car will out-brake a race motorcycle. Hard to believe, but even out-turn.

The maximum braking force you can apply on cycles is that which your back wheel is rising and just losing all traction with the ground. Of course, you have less control now. I find it easier to get away with braking and turning at the same time on the bicycle.

I don't bike much in heavy traffic, so I'm skewed a bit and think pedaling is safer. The moto I ride more often in heavy traffic and if someone makes a move I can't avoid I know it is going to be likely severe. I feel I can 'walk off' the bicycle more readily. Suppose the same goes for the moto at slow speeds.

Definitely ATGATT! Yes, boots, armor, pants, jacket, gloves, FF/MX helmet every single time I climb on. I've crashed once on the street, low-sided in a parking lot at 15 mph practicing tight figure eights. Crashed more times than I can count in the dirt.

*Some information interpreted from Total Control by Lee Parks, Motocross Riding Tips by editors of Dirt Biker Magazine and Mastering Mountain Biking Skills by Brian Lopes and Lee McCormack.

Since we're posting some pics, here's my dual-sport/motard/dirt bike, (which is a breeze to trackstand and crawl while slipping the clutch. I don't ride it when there's snow/ice/salt on the ground, even knobbies don't do well without studs/spikes.)

Heading down the highway to the lake with 17's and sport bike tires. Look how small my footprint is.
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p180/CsHoSi/06DRZSM/2006-10_Dual-Sport_Ride/to_the_lake01.jpg

First time out with the 18/21" knobbies and I submerged it. Got help pulling it out and rode my bike back down to change and properly dispose of old oil because it was milky.
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p180/CsHoSi/06DRZSM/2006-11-07_Submersion/how_i_left_it.jpg

That's as much as I'll clutter up this thread, more stuff I've done is linked from my sig.

Personally, I feel much safer on my motorcycle than on my bicycle. But this might be because of familiarity. I've riding motorcycles for the past 15 years or so, and bicycles, regularly, for all of 3 weeks.

As was pointed out, speed is what makes a motorcycle safer where traffic is involved. Being able to move at the same speed as the surrounding traffic and accelerate out of harm's way are major advantages.

As far as the helmet goes, I find that my full face helmet doesn't cut down on my field of vision and actually helps me hear better. I know this sounds strange, but the helmet cuts down on wind noise and allows me to hear surrounding traffic better.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

Only as a function of speed, not vehicle type. Motorcyclists have higher average speeds at the locations where crashes for both types of cycles are most likely to occur. This requires longer time and distance to stop, and provides other drivers with a shorter window of time to notice them in order to yield.

I've had a couple of left-cross near-misses on my bicycle that I wouldn't want to experience at 10-20 mph faster on a motorcycle. Hopefully the motorcycle headlamp and faring would increase visibility and reduce this likelihood, but I don't know.

Ok I kind of understand what you're saying, but say at speeds such as 30 mph.. that's something a bicycle can reach, too. I'd say then yes, a motorcycle would take longer to stop, but that's pretty much like saying a semi takes longer to stop than a car.

All of this is why when you start to arrive at an intersection on a motorcycle you're supposed to decrease your speed and look in every possible direction.

Is this actually true?
I wouldn't have thought so.

On my bicycle, I'm sitting much, much higher than I am on my motorcycle. Of course, I have my seat raised so that my leg is almost fully extended at the end of the pedal stroke, which seems a little higher than how most people like it.

I rode a 600 for about 9mo without any problems. I always felt as though I had a presence on the road in regards to other drivers.

I have been on a bicycle for a month. I was hit by a cab the other day (nothing serious just a glancing blow). Drivers don't pay any attention or respect you unless you take the lane and then I don't think it's respect but more of there's not much they can do about it.

that being said, I have had two friends go down on motorcycles resulting in serious injury. one high speed (uneven lanes + 125mph lane change) and one low speed (car pulled out in front of him).

As a couple of people have said before, welcome to the idiots. If you ride a motorcycle like an idiot, then of course you're going to die or get injured if you're lucky. If you drive a car like an idiot, you, too, will die. If you ride your bicycle like an idiot, you will also be dying. It may sound a little cold-hearted, but to me that's natural selection. If the brain is not smart enough to protect the head and body it's in in every way possible, then why should anyone feel sorry for you?

Call me an idiot, then . . . but I am a living breathing idiot, in part, because I pulled most of my no-brainers in cars or on my bicycles (a higher power is probably the other part).

As a teen driver, I regularly raced "cross-country" on rural roads in old vehicles maintained on allowance budgets at speeds that made the wipers flop. We were anything but safe. I never had any accidents, but some of my buddies did. Fortunately, we were on four wheels and not two. Before I could drive a car, all I had was my bike, and, pedal as fast as I might, I simply could not reach speeds that were likely to cause damage, and the combination of poor "allowance-level" equipment coupled with my own physical limitations kept me within a semblance of the "stay-alive" limits.

Today's equipment coupled with my more ample budget definitely puts my bicycle speeds beyond that limit, and I have had accidents where, but for sheer luck, I could have been seriously injured or killed, even if I tend to ride less like an "idiot" today than I might have in my younger years. Even so, looking back on those accidents, had I been riding a motorcycle instead of a bike, I do believe that my injuries would have been more serious.

I know how I am with any vehicle/craft and speed (I do love speed) . . . and I remain convinced that I am alive today because I chose boats over aircraft, cars and bicycles over motorcycles.

It's purely speculative on my part, though.

Caruso

I've gotten far worse road rash on a bicycle than a motorcycle. Full leathers and a full face helmet are difficult to manage on a road bike.

But I also slipped in some sand and had my motorcycle fall on my leg and break my knee. I'm pretty sure that would never happen on a bicycle... even a fully loaded touring bike. :)

I'd say even if there are similarities, there are also many differences. So different skills are used and it makes it more difficult to compare than it would seem on the surface.

Az

Thanks for all the fascinating replies. Okay, let me throw another one at ya. What effect does the fact that a motorbike has wider wheels than a bicycle have on safety? And what about a motor scooter, which has even wider wheels than a motorbike (although smaller)? Is this a significant factor for better or worse, when it comes to the physics of staying upright?

And how do you all feel about trikes in relation to safety? I'm still thinking about getting either a motor trike or a recumbent pedal trike.

On my bicycle, I'm sitting much, much higher than I am on my motorcycle. Of course, I have my seat raised so that my leg is almost fully extended at the end of the pedal stroke, which seems a little higher than how most people like it.

Yeah, Ralph, it seems to me, too, that the bicycle seat is significantly higher above the road than a motorbike seat. That would seem to be one factor contributing to a harder fall, although mitigated by other factors.

Thanks for all the fascinating replies. Okay, let me throw another one at ya. What effect does the fact that a motorbike has wider wheels than a bicycle have on safety? And what about a motor scooter, which has even wider wheels than a motorbike (although smaller)? Is this a significant factor for better or worse, when it comes to the physics of staying upright?


A motorcycle is a whole lot more stable
than a bicycle and thats what contributes
to many peoples feeling of safety on
the MC moreso than the bicycle, mine
included. The only problem being stuff
happens very, very fast on a motorcycle.
When something does go wrong, it is very
unpleasant :eek: :cry:
That being said....I rode MC's for 30 years
before I got my scooter. The people who
dropped off the scooter said I might have
problems because Im too familier with
MC's. "Suuuuuure" I say, pointing to my
shed that housed a 180mph superbike,
a huge Harley and a dirtbike.....:roflmao:
To make a long story short, I could barely
balance the scooter !!:eek: The combination
of short wheelbase and tiny tires made it
almost unrideable to me. I eventually
learned it and loved it, but it was very
unsettling for a month or two....so twitchy !

Interesting, £em in Pa=-...hey i was just looking at motorbike tires today, and I see that, although wide, they are very rounded on the surface, I suppose so you can lean. Now what do I do if I make a trike out of a scooter? A scooter trike will not lean, it will drive straight like a car...so shouldn't it have car type tires that with a flat surface, not rounded??? And are those kind of tires available in scooter size???

A scooter with a sidecar is a BEAST to ride !!
Almost unuseable in traffic.
Here is some other 3-wheel stuff that might interest you !
The Piaggio is said to corner with the G-Force of a race motorcycle :eek:

http://www.scootercrazy.com/images/mp3.jpg

www.piaggiogroup.com

http://www.extremetoystore.com/scooters/bajaj/images/Pickup_Truck.jpg

www.bajajusa.com

[QUOTE=calamarichris;5217550]Another vote for the Motorcycle Safety Foundation Course. http://msf-usa.org/

I remember very distinctly some of the things my MSF instructor told me in 1993:

"Due to their superior acceleration, braking and maneuverability, motorcycles are the safest vehicles on the road today."

<pause for baffled silence>

"...up to the point of impact."

ATGATT = All The Gear, All The Time!

Agree on all counts. I've ridden motorcycles on and off since I was eight.

To answer the question posed in the OP, I don't believe a bike is "inherently" safer. I think it all depends upon rider behavior, experience and a little luck. When you factor out riders' youth, inexperience and intoxication, I think motorcycles are fairly safe IF YOU ASSUME THAT EVERYONE ELSE ON THE ROAD IS TRYING TO KILL YOU.

Interesting thread, most here are saying that they feel safer on a motorcycle than a bicycle. However, I've heard from some on BF - as well as others I've talked to - that they feel safer on a bicycle. You guys care to jump in and give your two cents?

Here's mine and my background. I feel much much safer on my motorcycle than on my bicycle, and sit at about the same height on both. In my 18 years and just over 100,000 miles on motorcycling, I've been stung on the face by a bee (lots of pain, but no real damage) that flew up over the windshield and into my helmet, and pushed into the side of a friends garage after the self retracting sidestand (a federally mandated safety feature) retracted the sidestand while I was getting off of it one day. There haven't been any other injuries on the motorcycle in spite of riding in rain, snow, high winds and around the usual assortment of drivers that make you wonder if they're trying to kill you.

In less than 2 years of bicycling, I've fallen twice. Once when I realized the bicycle doesn't handle as well as the motorcycle does in the wet after taking a curve too fast, and once when I couldn't stop in time to avoid a drainpipe left out after another rain. I got road rash both times, and sprained my wrist the second. I almost fell last winter when I stopped before I slipped on the snow, and got MRSA after the bicycle slipped and jammed the pedal into my leg. Falling then would have been better. I also sprained the knee of my short leg when I didn't have enough of a shim in my shoe to correct for the leg length deficiency while using toe clips.

The lack of mirrors, decent brakes, lights, protective gear (full face helmet, 'stich or other jacket with body armor, boots, gloves kevlar lined jeans) and slower acceleration compared to cars all make me feel a lot more vulnerable on the bicycle. My motorcycle moves my soul, while my bicycle makes me nervous but gives me the exercise I need to be healthy - a long with a growing list of injuries to make me wonder if I shouldn't find a different form of exercise!

As far as the helmet goes, I find that my full face helmet doesn't cut down on my field of vision and actually helps me hear better. I know this sounds strange, but the helmet cuts down on wind noise and allows me to hear surrounding traffic better.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

The idea that helmets reduce your field of vision and prevent you from hearing traffic is a bunch of bs that's usually promoted by people who don't wear them. And often ride motorcycles loud enough to drown out the sound of traffic.

The problem with wearing "all the gear, all the time," is, what do you do in a tropical climate? That would make you very uncomfortable and you'd sweat like a pig. You'd end up laundering all the gear, all the time.