I hate the look they give you at the vehicle registry when you are registering a recent purchase, and you state there is no lienholder. It's a combination of distrust and jealousy.

I don't get that look, because the most I've paid for a car is $1200. ;)

I paid a bit more, and it seems foreign to some people that you can have a car, 4WD, or motorcycle that's new, and no loan. I'm so unAmerican.

$8000 a year!?

That's crazy. D:

I think it's really sad when you see people, especially young people, throwing money away on vehicles. I learned that lesson the hard way after buying a new Geo Metro. I was 19, couldn't make the payments, couldn't afford the repairs when (nearly) everything broke. I had to sell it off, and still had to borrow money off my dad to cover the loan! I understand some people need decent transportation if you live in a rural area, have children, etc. I say if you have an option to save money, do it. Put that cash towards a down payment on a house, maybe some schooling, even a nice trip-by bike! ;) It's hard though, the automotive industry is trying their damdest to stay above water, and with the media constantly pushing cars on people, a lot of them can't make the right choice.
Look at it this way: I ride a new $400 700C machine. Even with some summer and winter tires, a new chain, new housing/cables, and any other forseeable problems i'm still spending less than $1000, easily. That includes the occasional americano! :)

You bought a Metro new?

That's insanity.

In the New York Metro, a 40K salary is barely a living wage. I know several people who can't afford cars because they are making 40K a year! What do these folks eat for dinner after buying such an expensive car? Cat Food?
You just don't get it. They need the Tahoe so they can save money on bulk food from Sam's Club! :rolleyes:

$800 a month for a car payment is still difficult for me to comprehend, that's well over double of what my monthly mortgage payments were.

How about $800 a month for a parking space then. Not unusual in Manhattan.

That's insanity.

In the New York Metro, a 40K salary is barely a living wage. I know several people who can't afford cars because they are making 40K a year! What do these folks eat for dinner after buying such an expensive car? Cat Food?

Actually they can't afford cars because they are making $40k a year in New York and spending all their money on rent.

Actually they can't afford cars because they are making $40k a year in New York and spending all their money on rent.

Is it really that bad? I would think if I was making 40K/year in NYC I would seriously reconsider my life choices. I imagine that it's mostly single people too. If your rent was 40-60%, that would mean, what, a $1500-2500 payment/month? Too rich for my blood.

But, it takes money to have the resources to move, and if you're living paycheck to paycheck, then even moving to somewhere where the cost of living vs. income ratio is better may not be feasible...

But, it takes money to have the resources to move, and if you're living paycheck to paycheck, then even moving to somewhere where the cost of living vs. income ratio is better may not be feasible...

I've been in that boat myself. I oved from Vancouver to Calgary 5 years ago and had $50 to my name when I got off the plane. If it wasn't for friends and family I might not have been able to do it. I'm now looking to go to an even less expensive market, as Calgary has jumped something like 60% in the past 2 years. Yikes.
I could understand someone's situation in a place like New York. Never been myself, but it seems like it's turning into a playground for the rich...

This article doesn't once mention bikes.

Is it really that bad? I would think if I was making 40K/year in NYC I would seriously reconsider my life choices. I imagine that it's mostly single people too. If your rent was 40-60%, that would mean, what, a $1500-2500 payment/month? Too rich for my blood.

One bedroom apartments in a doorman building in a decent (but not prime) location cost around $3000-$3,500. People making $40,000 are probably going to look for something cheaper by sharing or renting a walkup or living in an outer borough.

This article doesn't once mention bikes.

That's OK; this discussion list is hardly about bicycling, but rather attitude, politics and lifestyle. Bicycling is a sideshow on this list, which is fine if you are looking for a discussion about attitude, politics and lifestyle; confusing if one thinks this list is about bicycling or bicyclists.

Is it really that bad? I would think if I was making 40K/year in NYC I would seriously reconsider my life choices. I imagine that it's mostly single people too. If your rent was 40-60%, that would mean, what, a $1500-2500 payment/month? Too rich for my blood.

$40k in NYC is borderline tough to do, although personally I'd rather pay 40-60% of my income in rent in NYC than cheaper housing + car payments + fuel, etc in other locales.

How about $800 a month for a parking space then. Not unusual in Manhattan.

That's just as unfathomable as well, of course, when sombody told me that a garage in S.F. was going for $500 a month many years back, I was just as astounded then. I should know better, and not be suprised anymore.

You bought a Metro new?

Yeah yeah, rub it in. Bad decision. ;)

Yeah yeah, rub it in. Bad decision. ;)

A girl that I dated in college had one. She said it got totaled, and I asked if it happened in a parking lot, the punch line being that it was hit by a cart. Turned out that someone backed into it in a parking lot. That was enough to total it. Sadly, yours was not the victim of a mercy killing.

Hey! My '79 Chevy Blazer was totaled by a Metro. :( Of course... the police estimated that the guy was going in excess of 100 mph when he hit the back of my truck. (Yeah.... I didn't know they could go that fast, either. There WAS a hill involved, so MAYBE that explains it.....)

A Metro at 100MPH? Only if it was dropped from a helicopter.

A Metro at 100MPH? Only if it was dropped from a helicopter.

I never liked how mine would shake uncontrollably over 110km/h. It made it really hard to pass vehicles. Not to mention the violent wind forces from oncoming tractor trailers would make me piss my shorts.

Actually, I never got the police report... I'm not sure it was actually a metro, but it was about that size/shape. And the 'shaking uncontrollably' might explain why he hit the back of my parked truck.

He hit hard enough that he knocked my blazer approximately 75 feet. OVER a curb, up a slight incline, across the grass and into a parking lot.

I had a friend that had a Geo Metro... I used to ask him to borrow his car...

"Why? What's wrong with YOUR car?"

"Nothing, I just wanted to throw your car in the trunk for a spare!"

A Metro at 100MPH? Only if it was dropped from a helicopter.

pre 1996 models can hit 100. Hit anything, and they'll scrape you off the bumper with a sponge.
I owned a 1996, it could hit 93, when drafting.

CE

What people are doing with their money is crazy. What worse in my mind is when people roll car purchases into mortgages and pay interest on that car for years after they've sold it.

I think kids need to be taught the value of money over a life time in school and then parents need teaching on how to help children earn and save their incomes.

This 'I deserve it' mentality is going to break us...

It's amazing how so many people complain about the rising cost of gas when a larger portion of money on automotive expenses can be saved elsewhere.

-more fuel efficient car
-more affordable car which leads to lower insurance premiums
-more affordable car which also leads to lower maintenance costs
-and lots of other things mentioned in this thread

Hmm. I dunno.... I have a car, I'll admit to that. But then if I think of why I am broke, it is defo not the car. It really was not expensive as I bought it secondhand off a mate, and I only drive it once a week, max. I seem to suffer from 'Upgraditis'; having spent about 10 times more on my bikes in the last two years than what I spent on purchasing the car. Just my new racer wheelset was more expensive than the £300 ($600) I spent on getting my car fully serviced and equipped with new tyres....

By using my bike, instead of a car/SUV, I have saved considerable money over the years. Even though my bicycle trips are fairly short by some cyclist's standards, I have lowered my vehicle maintenance/fuel expenditures several fold by eliminating unnecessary or consolidating trips with the car/SUV, since it requires less effort to drive the car/SUV, it also requires less thought process(speaking only for myself) as to whether I really need to make the trip in the first place. Taking the car/SUV savings, putting them toward better cycling equipment, bicycles, or home improvements, I have more to show for my money spent than what would have been just an empty tank of gas every other week. Still working on the tank of gas from the last fill up in May.

When I rent I usually do a "blitz". I make my list up and over the course of say 2-4weeks I have enough errands to do that would require the use of a rental car for the weekend. I can go out shopping all day Saturday, go out for a dressy dinner on Sat night, and I have it Sun if I need it. And what's that cost, like 60 bucks? Hardly pays to have a car these days.

A Metro at 100MPH? Only if it was dropped from a helicopter.
I think the version that had the 70hp 1.3l I4 engine and the 5 speed manual could easily do 100mph, but it would just take it a while to get there. Most Metro's have a 49-55hp 1.0l I3 engine, though, and would have considerable difficulty getting to 100mph if it's even possible.

I think the version that had the 70hp 1.3l I4 engine and the 5 speed manual could easily do 100mph, but it would just take it a while to get there. Most Metro's have a 49-55hp 1.0l I3 engine, though, and would have considerable difficulty getting to 100mph if it's even possible.

How sad. My motorcycle has a 1.8L 6, making 118HP.

The Metro is purposely de-tuned to make it more fuel efficient. The 49hp XFi model could get more than 50mpg. but yeah, I can't imagine them being very much fun to drive.

Sounds like GM-think. Look at the original Honda CRV - they put a small engine in it, and it got horrible fuel economy because you had to flog it just to get it rolling. The bigger engine actually gets better fuel economy.

I think the version that had the 70hp 1.3l I4 engine and the 5 speed manual could easily do 100mph, but it would just take it a while to get there. Most Metro's have a 49-55hp 1.0l I3 engine, though, and would have considerable difficulty getting to 100mph if it's even possible.

Also, if you count the Canada-only Pontiac Firefly, there was a 75hp 1.0L 4-cylinder turbo engine.

However, based on the weight and aerodynamics of the Metro, there should be enough power to get to 100 MPH, assuming the gearing allows it. 52 hp gets my much heavier (yet surprisingly similar aerodynamics) Golf to 92 MPH.

Sounds like GM-think. Look at the original Honda CRV - they put a small engine in it, and it got horrible fuel economy because you had to flog it just to get it rolling. The bigger engine actually gets better fuel economy.

According to the website below, I can flog my bicycle all day, and still get over 100 miles per gallon.:p

http://constructal.blogspot.com/2006/03/whats-mileage-on-that-bicycle.html

By using my bike, instead of a car/SUV, I have saved considerable money over the years. Even though my bicycle trips are fairly short by some cyclist's standards, I have lowered my vehicle maintenance/fuel expenditures several fold by eliminating unnecessary or consolidating trips with the car/SUV, since it requires less effort to drive the car/SUV, it also requires less thought process(speaking only for myself) as to whether I really need to make the trip in the first place. Taking the car/SUV savings, putting them toward better cycling equipment, bicycles, or home improvements, I have more to show for my money spent than what would have been just an empty tank of gas every other week. Still working on the tank of gas from the last fill up in May.

I do exactly the same thing! For me it's great but having to deal with the people around you is sometimes akward. Friends & family seem to suffer trying to do the simplist things, they get caught in traffic jams, always short of money then go into 'crisis' mode during what seems to be a yearly major car repair.
Fortunatly where I live i'm surrounded by people who are either auto mechanics or are involved in mechanical engineering & techie jobs and they are all pro-bike since they are very much aware of the ridicoulus costs of running those machines. Heck if they want a car they usually just build one (two guys on my street are doing it right now!), a mechanic wouldn't put more than $100 bucks into a car (unless of course it his/her baby, like a 1908 Baker or a Stanly steamer :)
Any mechanic appreciates the beauty & grace of a really fine bicycle, you can't argue with math it's still the most energy efficiant form of transportation and with $80+ for a barrel of oil it may soon become the only economically viable form of transportation soon... :)

Cheers!

Also, if you count the Canada-only Pontiac Firefly, there was a 75hp 1.0L 4-cylinder turbo engine.



There was a guy in Regina when I was growing up that pimped out a twin turbo firefly. It was the biggest waste of money, and he had a huge speaker system that required a bigger alternator. Not to mention the bloody heavy speaker box in the trunk probably wasn't helping the weight issue. You can take the idiot out of the village, but...:rolleyes:

You can take the idiot out of the village, but...:rolleyes:

but you can never take the idiot out of the whitehouse... :D

Now, what would be seriously cool is a 16v G16 (that is, the Sidekick/Tracker motor - related to the G10 (3-cyl) and G13 (4-cyl, also Samurai) motors used in the Swift/Metro/Firefly) swap, with a turbo added...

And then another 16v G16 turbo drivetrain in the back. :eek:

Any mechanic appreciates the beauty & grace of a really fine bicycle, you can't argue with math it's still the most energy efficiant form of transportation

I'm not sure about not putting money into my car, but yeah, I love my bikes. I like machines in general, and there's nothing quite like a well-oiled, precision made bike. I wish I had one. :o

they are all pro-bike since they are very much aware of the ridicoulus costs of running those machines.

Please explain what these costs are that you are referring to.

Please explain what these costs are that you are referring to.

Costs are relative.
What is high to me might not be to you. If you are blessed with low debt, a mighty career, and multiple motor vehicles, good on you. But it is fair to say that driving and car ownership can be expensive.


We have not talked about other costs that don't get added to the sticker: Environmental costs. Time lost in traffic costs. Health costs (both for the driver and related asthma, pollution, drinking water, etc. etc.) Fuel costs (do we really pay what fuel should cost?) Road costs. Maintenance. Insurance. Embodied energy from the manufacture of the vehicle. Sprawl costs. etc. etc.

Please explain what these costs are that you are referring to.

40 cents on up per mile. That seems ridiculous to me, considering that many car trips could be easily replaced by bike, walking or bus. Of course in some cases driving is economically sensible, even if it rarely makes environmental sense.

I guess we're back to the basic issue - people buy more car than they can afford. Let's not address the question of need, since that's highly debatable. I have no pity for anyone that is in over their head on car payments or credit card debt. Don't buy a vehicle you can't afford, and don't use credit as an extension of your paycheck, it's as simple as that.

It appears that I will own my car for a full 2 years before I have to spend anything on maintenance. Other than a broken windshield, it's been nothing but fuel and insurance, both of which have been quite affordable.

I guess we're back to the basic issue - people buy more car than they can afford. Let's not address the question of need, since that's highly debatable. I have no pity for anyone that is in over their head on car payments or credit card debt. Don't buy a vehicle you can't afford, and don't use credit as an extension of your paycheck, it's as simple as that.

It appears that I will own my car for a full 2 years before I have to spend anything on maintenance. Other than a broken windshield, it's been nothing but fuel and insurance, both of which have been quite affordable.

Good for you.


People often willingly eat more than they should, people willingly eat products that are not healthy for them, people smoke, drink too much, do not exercise when they 'know' they should. I'm not surprised that people do what you suggest and live beyond their means. Look at the mortgage crisis - people borrowing well beyond what they could pay under normal circumstances.

And while I think personal responsibility is a large part of this picture - there is also the argument that society plays a role as well - countless advertisements, 'live the good life with product x,y,z', incentives (EZ money) to buy a home in the burbs (but increase a commute), image over substance - there are thousands of interlinked choices, pressures, etc. that drive this stuff. How many people are plugged into sattelit, cable, or TV most of the day? Or magazines, sponsorships, etc. You think advertisers would still advertise if it didn't work?

When car culture is everywhere, and reinforced by the design of our communities, by the media, and by 'lifestyle' - often times as more than transportation, as the very identity of some folks - its no wonder people complain about school levies and social services but happily pay the interest on their SUV or fleet of minivans.

I guess we're back to the basic issue - people buy more car than they can afford. Let's not address the question of need, since that's highly debatable. I have no pity for anyone that is in over their head on car payments or credit card debt. Don't buy a vehicle you can't afford, and don't use credit as an extension of your paycheck, it's as simple as that.

It appears that I will own my car for a full 2 years before I have to spend anything on maintenance. Other than a broken windshield, it's been nothing but fuel and insurance, both of which have been quite affordable.

In the case of a minimum wage or near minimum wage worker that would most likely be ANY car, if they are to have any money left for basics, like a roof over their heads and food on the table. Also from my observation those are the people that are least likely to have any clue of how to best handle money effectively.

Aaron:)

The one factor about bike ownership is the depreciation dollar amount versus car ownership, percentage wise might favor the car, but the bike is in the tens or hundreds of dollars versus thousands and tens of thousands for the car. I can buy a lot of bikes on the loss in value on one new car. Granted, one can make money on some cars when they become classics, as long there is a demand for the type you bought, but the trick is to know what car is worth keeping, and plus having to own it for twenty or thirty years.

Hmm. One of my bikes is worth several thousand less than it cost to build. That could get me a used car.

Hmm. One of my bikes is worth several thousand less than it cost to build. That could get me a used car.

Wow. That statement reminds me of one of those really rich folks I have read about or seen on the picture tube that fails to understand the poor folks and why they struggle.

I guess maybe I should say congrats on being able to buy a bike that has probably had more "depreciation" then every bicycle I've ever bought in my life has even cost not sure how that help anything along here though. The only person I know with such an expensive bike is my old Director who lived in NYC and raced on a team. He also paid $500 a month to park a brand new high end mercedes he drove once a month so him and I had a bit of an economic gap.

That is a lot more bike then a person who can't afford a car should be buying though. It doesn't mean they wouldn't afterall the person might feel the need to get a nice bike to put next to their no payments to 2009 Plasma TV in their no payments to 2010 living room set. I wonder if a bicycle is your only vehicle the law protects it when you go chapter-11/13/?? like it would a house and a car down here in Texas

Kids living at home get into this kind of trouble all the time. Of course, when I worked at a VW/Porsche/Audi dealer, two of the kids there drove $60k plus cars. Ego issues. They teased about my Scion. My paid for Scion. My paid for Scion that cost me less per year in gas/insurance than they paid per month for their car payment.

Yes, I recall someone sneering at my old Ford Aspire. Had four responses : 1) It's paid for 2) It's cheap to insure 3) It gets better than 50 mpg (Imperial gallons) 4) Cost $0 in repairs beyond routine maintenance that year. I am afraid none of those could apply to buddy's relatively new VR6 Golf.