Yesterday, I ovserved first hand why we, as bikers, sometimes have to endure the wrath of motorists. I was traveling north out of town on a road with a paved shoulder wide enough to be a four lane road. Three bikers were in front of me--not locals. One was riding on the shoulder next to the auto lane. The second was in the car lane having a leisure chat with the rider on the shoulder. About 20 yards ahead of these two was another rider in the car lane. We were on a curve, hence, we were in a no passing lane. Behind the riders were two automobiles and two eighteen wheelers. I visitors finally moved over when I was down to about 12 mph. and the single rider finally moved over just BARELY on to the shoulder and immediately pulled back into the car lane in front of the first eighteen wheeler nearly getting hit. From their kit and bikes, one would assume they would be experienced bikers; however, they may have had more money than biking experience. I think the term is "OCP?"
Anyway, it doesn't take many south ends of north bound horses to give the masses of riders a bad name.
The BikeForums Team
-adv-
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I don't get it...on a "four lane road", what's the problem? Seems like you could have changed lanes and passed with no problems.
Also, how wide was the "shoulder" and in what condition? On 4 lane roads, if the shoulder is narrow, or full of debris, I'll ride in the traffic lane. It's permitted by law (in most places), and by custom.
Velo Dog
That's a huge problem around here--when I started riding in Reno years ago, I rarely saw another adult cyclist, and drivers mostly ignored me or made a point of giving me room. Now the roads are full of Lance wannabes, all dressed in their superhero outfits, and a lot of them are what used to be called Arrogant Roadie Pr!cks. They block the city streets, hammer in packs three and four abreast down rural roads and block traffic constantly. I've been riding for more than 30 years, I'm 100 percent behind cyclists' rights, but they even piss ME off. It amazes me not that so many drivers hate bikes, but that ALL of them don't. I write a newspaper column, and every spring I do a reminder for cyclists that if they want the right of the road, they have to take the responsibility that comes with it--obey the law, yield when you should, stuff like that I've had two death threats from riders, several drives to get me fired and many promises along the lines of "if I see you on the road, I'm going to kick your @$$." Last year I printed a detailed description of my bike and told exactly when and where I'd be riding on a Saturday morning. Imagine my surprise when nobody showed up.
George
Man, I guess they are everywhere. It reminds me of when I was still working. Everybody knows how busy Chicago is and it's worse in rush hour. A lot of people would take back roads to try and get out of traffic, like everywhere else. Anyhow these 3 guys, everyday at the peak of rush hour, were all riding abreast, like they always did. They always had traffic backed up for miles and when you got by them they were laughing and having the time of there lives, while everybody behind them were a little ticked off. One day I was about 3 cars back and we were coming down this long hill, I had this one ton truck in front of me and you could see he was getting pretty fed up with this game. Anyhow he dropped back and then he started to coast down the hill while engine braking, when he got next to the riders that truck back fired and it was so loud you wouldn't believe it. One went into the ditch, one gave him the finger and the other grabbed his ears and everybody behind them laughed and blew there horns at the jerks. I never seen them after that.
BluesDawg
"Sharing the Road" is something drivers and cyclists both need to do do more of.
My take of the OP is that he is describing a two lane road with a wide paved shoulder.
Big Paulie
Percentage wise, I see much worse behavior from cyclists than drivers. Of course, cyclists can't inflict as much harm as a car, but our image is damaged, and that hurts us all.
tsl
They block the city streets, hammer in packs three and four abreast down rural roads and block traffic constantly.
According to the law in all US states and Canadian provinces, cyclists *ARE* traffic. Just like dump trucks, buses and other things auto drivers claim are "blocking" traffic.
That said, yes there are inconsiderate people on both sides. But how is that different than in anything else in life?
Yen
Although cyclists are considered regular traffic, shouldn't they pull over to let faster traffic pass just as slower motorists are required to do?
roccobike
I don't get it...on a "four lane road", what's the problem? Seems like you could have changed lanes and passed with no problems.
I think you read it incorrectly. The OP said "wide enough to be a four lane road". It appears its a two lane road with a wide shoulder. If that's the case, I can understand why drivers would be really PO'd.
roccobike
There are two clubs I will not ride with because of their consistantly poor approach to riding on busy suburban roads. They don't care how many cars they block or what the reaction is. It gives the rest of us cyclist a bad reputation. I doubt that they care.
Fortunately, they are a small minority. Most cyclist ride to the far right, taking advantage of wide shoulders whenever possible.
card
I don't get it...on a "four lane road", what's the problem? Seems like you could have changed lanes and passed with no problems.
The road was a 2 lane. The shoulders were wide enough, you could make them another lane. I think my post was clear on that--my intent was to state that THE SHOULDER IS WIDE ENOUGH, IT COULD BE ANOTHER LANE.
Also, how wide was the "shoulder" and in what condition? On 4 lane roads, if the shoulder is narrow, or full of debris, I'll ride in the traffic lane. It's permitted by law (in most places), and by custom.
AGAIN, was a 2 lane road w/wide shoulders. On 4 lane roads w/ no shoulders or full of debris, we have no choice but to ride in the traffic lane. I was caught in that very situation on Hwy 90 that comes out of San Antonio when we were close to Bandera. There is no shoulder at all.
SSP
I think you read it incorrectly. The OP said "wide enough to be a four lane road". It appears its a two lane road with a wide shoulder. If that's the case, I can understand why drivers would be really PO'd.
Whoops...my mistake.
You are correct...in that situation, the cyclists were being JAB's.
maddmaxx
Almost all bad behavior in the modern world is derived from the common belief that all around you are idiots and are therefor not due any level of respect.
I wonder how that happened?
SSP
Almost all bad behavior in the modern world is derived from the common belief that all around you are idiots and are therefor not due any level of respect.
I wonder how that happened?
Rush Limbaugh and Fox News.
maddmaxx
Rush Limbaugh and Fox News.
Nah, they play to an audiance that wants to hear what they want to hear. We....society in general are a much harsher more crule place than 50 years ago.
Terrierman
Almost all bad behavior in the modern world is derived from the common belief that all around you are idiots and are therefor not due any level of respect.
I wonder how that happened?
I'm pretty sure it's the Clinton legacy...multiplied by the Bush willingness to live and learn and be so accepting of other's points of view, divided by Al Gore's invention of the internet, plus the global warming factor. The BS level is so high in other words, and you are right, folks just don't seem to care about much of anything except themselves any more.
webist
...folks just don't seem to care about much of anything except themselves any more.
Indeed. And, they don't care enough for themselves to care what impression they make on others. Many don't care enough, even for themselves, that they are willing to improve or educate themselves. We are all fed the pablum of "They will take care of it," whoever "they" are.
sknhgy
I saw the same dang thing Saturday Morning. A bunch of "superheros" from the city unneccessarily clogging up our rural roads. They were laughing and smiling and riding 2 abreast while keeping a line of traffic behind them hostage. I wanted to flip them off for giving cyclists a bad name.
A frequent topic in our lunchroom is the behavior of the weekend bicyclist a-holes who hold up traffic. Folks at work know I ride and they know I do what I can to not get in the way of traffic. I think the buttholes who act like they own the road either don't realize or don't care that they are giving all of us a bad name.
oilman_15106
I guess I am confuesed from riding so many miles on crappy PA roads with no bike rideable shoulder. A bike by law has the same rights to the road as a truck or car. If there is no where to ride but on the road so be it. Even though the bikers in the OP's view were doing something to besmearch all bicyclists, from the description I saw little wrong.
If the shoulder was a true "bike lane" marked as such then it might be a different story but even then if there is so much crap such a broken glass or gravel in the bike lane which is often the case.
piper_chuck
According to the law in all US states and Canadian provinces, cyclists *ARE* traffic. Just like dump trucks, buses and other things auto drivers claim are "blocking" traffic.
And, according to Tx bike law, where the OP is from, bicycles are permitted to use the shoulder. Since in this case it's obvious there was a large shoulder, as reported by a cyclist, any cyclist interested in maintaining a good relationship with motor vehicle drivers would use it as needed to avoid impeding traffic. Sure, one can take the lane, but in obvious cases like this, why inconvenience others?
will dehne
I do not know if we can do any good about this subject.
On one hand, cars kill bikers and not the other way around.
On the other hand, there are no universal rules bikers agree on. VC is a dirty word to some and totally disregarded by many young or occasional bikers.
Bikers have a casual attitude about traffic signals and stop signs.
I have noticed bikers traveling on busy roads at night with no lights or reflectors in dark clothing.
I bike a lot but on trails or park roads. If I go on roads I do it VC and very carefully and never after dusk.
I like to live a little longer and be healthy.
head_wind
I don't wish to condone the behavour that card was pointing out but I have
some sympathies. Probably about 9 months of the year I refuse to use shoulders
or bike lanes because of the gravel that we put down for snow and no longer
clean up. I am episodically honked at for not using the dangerous (to me)
shoulders or bike lanes.
I often go thru a 5-way intersection and the only eligible lane for my turn is the
left one. Again, I am episodically honked at for being in the correct lane.
My view is that drivers complain no matter what we do and I am tired of caring.
It is my responsibility to do my best and maintain my standards. No matter what,
they merely want me out of the way.
waldowales
Around Salt Lake Valley, if you see JABs acting this way, you can easily guess which club they belong to. You should see them take over the MUPs on Saturday mornings! These hypocrites claim to promote safe cycling! :(
maddmaxx
It seems to me that bike should follow the practice and laws as followed by "slow" traffic, ie farm implements or road maintenance or power company trucks. Take the lane when fast enough......Take the lane when it is not possible or safe to do otherwise....and move over to let the faster vehicles pass whenever possible. Advocates always espouse the first 2 but get hung up on the last one while expressing comments about their rights! Everyone's got rights, get over it.
card
I guess I am confuesed from riding so many miles on crappy PA roads with no bike rideable shoulder. A bike by law has the same rights to the road as a truck or car. If there is no where to ride but on the road so be it. Even though the bikers in the OP's view were doing something to besmearch all bicyclists, from the description I saw little wrong.
If the shoulder was a true "bike lane" marked as such then it might be a different story but even then if there is so much crap such a broken glass or gravel in the bike lane which is often the case.
I ride on that shoulder all the time. The shoulder is as wide as a traffic lane. The shoulder has no "crap such a broken glass or gravel in the bike lane." I understand riding in the traffic lane when there is no shoulder or the shoulder is littered with trash--but gravel?? all our roads are chip seal so there is always some gravel around--I do the same thing.
If you see little wrong, please explain how they were justified riding in the traffic lane 2 abreast when there is a clean, wide paved shoulder with no debrise?
Terrierman
It seems to me that bike should follow the practice and laws as followed by "slow" traffic, ie farm implements or road maintenance or power company trucks. Take the lane when fast enough......Take the lane when it is not possible or safe to do otherwise....and move over to let the faster vehicles pass whenever possible.
That makes too much sense, ergo, it'll never work.:D
BlazingPedals
...If you see little wrong, please explain how they were justified riding in the traffic lane 2 abreast when there is a clean, wide paved shoulder with no debrise?
I rode on the shoulder last week in a similar situation. Traffic was heavy and the shoulder was clean, so I used it. Worked fine until I met up with a parked car in the shoulder. That, of course, is also a valid use of a shoulder. I found myself with my path blocked and the cars wouldn't let me into the traffic lane because after all I have to yield to existing traffic before entering the traffic lane. Moral of the story: if you give up your right of way, you might not easily get it back.
Depending on the lane width, riding 2 abreast might actually be *more* considerate than riding single file; that is, if the lane is too narrow to share, cars have to go into the next lane anyway, and doubling up shortens the line of bikes the car has to pass. Car drivers, of course, don't see it that way; all they see is bikes slowing them down. Isn't that why THEY pay to make bike paths??? :rolleyes:
BluesDawg
It seems to me that bike should follow the practice and laws as followed by "slow" traffic, ie farm implements or road maintenance or power company trucks. Take the lane when fast enough......Take the lane when it is not possible or safe to do otherwise....and move over to let the faster vehicles pass whenever possible. Advocates always espouse the first 2 but get hung up on the last one while expressing comments about their rights! Everyone's got rights, get over it.
+1
The most important "right" is doing the "right" thing. Do unto others...
It works for me.
John E
My position (so to speak) is pretty close to that expressed by "BlazingPedals."
BluesDawg
I rode on the shoulder last week in a similar situation. Traffic was heavy and the shoulder was clean, so I used it. Worked fine until I met up with a parked car in the shoulder. That, of course, is also a valid use of a shoulder. I found myself with my path blocked and the cars wouldn't let me into the traffic lane because after all I have to yield to existing traffic before entering the traffic lane. Moral of the story: if you give up your right of way, you might not easily get it back.
So, because of an inconsiderate driver parking on the shoulder, you were delayed. Would your solution be for you to delay several cars?
Terrierman
I rode on the shoulder last week in a similar situation. Traffic was heavy and the shoulder was clean, so I used it. Worked fine until I met up with a parked car in the shoulder. That, of course, is also a valid use of a shoulder. I found myself with my path blocked and the cars wouldn't let me into the traffic lane because after all I have to yield to existing traffic before entering the traffic lane. Moral of the story: if you give up your right of way, you might not easily get it back.
When that happens to me (which it does, as I frequently ride on the shoulders) I dismount and go around the parked car on the right, get back on my bicycle and start riding again.
Big Paulie
When that happens to me (which it does, as I frequently ride on the shoulders) I dismount and go around the parked car on the right, get back on my bicycle and start riding again.
+1
SSP
When that happens to me (which it does, as I frequently ride on the shoulders) I dismount and go around the parked car on the right, get back on my bicycle and start riding again.
I routinely encounter cars parked in the bike lane/wide shoulder on my commute home. But I've never had to stop, dismount, or go around on the right.
I just look for a modest gap in the overtaking traffic (using my mirror), signal and move into it. I may slow up a car or two for a few seconds as I get around the parked cars, but so what? Once I'm past the parked car(s), I move back over to the right.
"Yielding" doesn't mean you can't slow someone down for a few seconds...school buses routinely slow down other traffic when they pull away from a curb, so I figure it's no different for bikes.
stapfam
Yesterday I drove to a cycling event in London. Plenty of Cyclists leaving the event and I had one opinion of all the Cyclists- They all wanted to live. My feeling is that a car or truck is bigger and heavier than me so I don't want to argue with it. Plenty of traffic about and plenty of Cyclists- They co-existed on the road and neither caused the other a problem.
Now where I live is a bit Rural. We do have a few main roads and we have a lot of backroads. Both Cyclists and Drivers seem to get complacent and Neither look out for each other. You seem to get a lot more idiot drivers out in the "Sticks" aswell but Given the choice of where to cycle- Give me London- Except for the Foul air- The pedestrians and Not having the faintest idea of where I should be going.
BluesDawg
I routinely encounter cars parked in the bike lane/wide shoulder on my commute home. But I've never had to stop, dismount, or go around on the right.
I just look for a modest gap in the overtaking traffic (using my mirror), signal and move into it. I may slow up a car or two for a few seconds as I get around the parked cars, but so what? Once I'm past the parked car(s), I move back over to the right.
"Yielding" doesn't mean you can't slow someone down for a few seconds...school buses routinely slow down other traffic when they pull away from a curb, so I figure it's no different for bikes.
I definitely agree with this. I think the key to the whole idea of sharing the road and cooperating with other roadway users is that evryone gives a little and takes a little. I don't have any problem with making a car or a few cars slow down for a short time when I need to be on the road and they can't pass me safely. But for me to just take the lane and hold up traffic for an extended time when I could easily move over and ease the situation would be selfish and uncooperative. Justa as it would be selfish and uncooperative for a driver to squeeze by me to avoid oncoming traffic rather than slowing for a moment to allow me to get through a narrow section.
maddmaxx
I definitely agree with this. I think the key to the whole idea of sharing the road and cooperating with other roadway users is that evryone gives a little and takes a little. I don't have any problem with making a car or a few cars slow down for a short time when I need to be on the road and they can't pass me safely. But for me to just take the lane and hold up traffic for an extended time when I could easily move over and ease the situation would be selfish and uncooperative. Justa as it would be selfish and uncooperative for a driver to squeeze by me to avoid oncoming traffic rather than slowing for a moment to allow me to get through a narrow section.
This pretty well puts it in a nutshell! +1
RoMad
BluesDawg has it right. I always try to ride so cars will like bikes, I stay out of their way as much as I can and if I do have to ocassionally take the lane as soon as I can move I do and I give the cars a little wave. I would bet that the people in the OP would be jerks if they were in their cars too.
John E
I try to be courteous, but my safety comes first.
On Palomar Airport Road, a 55mph / 90kph 6-lane prime arterial with a decent bike lane and on on-street parking, I obediently use the bike lane, cautiously leaving it only to turn left, to avoid being right-hooked, or to circumnavigate an obstruction. Through downtown Encinitas on Coast Highway 101, a 30mph / 50kph 4-lane road with onstreet parking, much of it diagonal, I take the center of the right lane.
Vieja Cabra
"Yielding" doesn't mean you can't slow someone down for a few seconds...school buses routinely slow down other traffic when they pull away from a curb, so I figure it's no different for bikes.
I'm not qualified to comment on the school bus thing. However, if a vehicle traveling at or below posted and allowable speed has to slow, i.e., noticeably brake, for you to enter the traffic then you have failed to yield.
....so said the officer who gave me the ticket for failure to yield.
SteveA
My $.02 ...
Some percentage of people are jerks. Some are in cars some are on bikes. Being in/on either one does not gaurantee jerkiness or freedom from jerkiness.
When I'm driving in my car many people show no respect (racing up a lane they know is going to end soon, and then cutting in front of the 40 cars that they were behind 30 seconds earlier). I don't expect these people to start respecting me when I'm on my bike. I'm sure that some of these drivers are also cyclists. I'm sure that they don't suddenly become nice people when their rear end hits the saddle. They are the type of people that make others experiences worse - because it is easier for them and they don't really care. I believe that there is a certain percentage of cyclists on the road now who are into it because it is hip. They probably wont be riding 5-10 years from now when the hip-ness has worn off.
Personally,I'm not the type of person who does something just because it's legal - if it makes it tough for someone else. I'm going to protect my space when it makes sense - but I'm not going to aggrevate people just because I have the right to.
card
I try to be courteous, but my safety comes first.
On Palomar Airport Road, a 55mph / 90kph 6-lane prime arterial with a decent bike lane and on on-street parking, I obediently use the bike lane, cautiously leaving it only to turn left, to avoid being right-hooked, or to circumnavigate an obstruction. Through downtown Encinitas on Coast Highway 101, a 30mph / 50kph 4-lane road with onstreet parking, much of it diagonal, I take the center of the right lane.
I agree w/your post 100%; however, here, we have a population of 3000. The entire county has 30K. We don't have the traffic problems most of the dissenters present--other than the stalled pickup on the shoulder. I hate to keep harping on this, but we are rural--in the sticks--backwoods--very little traffic. The out of town bikers come up and create the problem I brought up. I can appreciate using the traffic lane in extinuating circumstances--I do. I think the problem was nailed by:
I definitely agree with this. I think the key to the whole idea of sharing the road and cooperating with other roadway users is that evryone gives a little and takes a little. I don't have any problem with making a car or a few cars slow down for a short time when I need to be on the road and they can't pass me safely. But for me to just take the lane and hold up traffic for an extended time when I could easily move over and ease the situation would be selfish and uncooperative. Justa as it would be selfish and uncooperative for a driver to squeeze by me to avoid oncoming traffic rather than slowing for a moment to allow me to get through a narrow section.
Wish I was as succinct.
BSLeVan
My $.02 ...
Some percentage of people are jerks. Some are in cars some are on bikes. Being in/on either one does not gaurantee jerkiness or freedom from jerkiness.
When I'm driving in my car many people show no respect (racing up a lane they know is going to end soon, and then cutting in front of the 40 cars that they were behind 30 seconds earlier). I don't expect these people to start respecting me when I'm on my bike. I'm sure that some of these drivers are also cyclists. I'm sure that they don't suddenly become nice people when their rear end hits the saddle. They are the type of people that make others experiences worse - because it is easier for them and they don't really care. I believe that there is a certain percentage of cyclists on the road now who are into it because it is hip. They probably wont be riding 5-10 years from now when the hip-ness has worn off.
Personally,I'm not the type of person who does something just because it's legal - if it makes it tough for someone else. I'm going to protect my space when it makes sense - but I'm not going to aggrevate people just because I have the right to.