Touring - Aluminium versus steel

I know, it's an old one, but I was wondering - people say aluminium is a harsh ride compared with steel because steel absorbs the lumps and bumps in the road, but surely that's the function of tyres, and the amount of flex you get between steel and aluminium is nothing compared with the shock absorbtion coming from the tyres.

I have both, by the way, and I have to say, I prefer my steel framed tourer, but I don;t know if it;s just in my head.

I don't think it's just in your head. Aluminum, especially on road bikes, is just harsher than steel. They are different materials, and transmit vibrations in different ways.

Tires are part of it, but not all of it. If ride quality was exclusively dependent upon tire choice, there would be no need to even consider frame material.

You can do a few things to compensate for the harshness of aluminum, such as use cushier tires, carbon fork, carbon seat stays, carbon seat post, elastomer inserts, etc. AFAIK few of these things are really suited to touring bikes.

The best alu touring bike I know of is the Cannondale. Comes with a Brooks saddle and suspension seatpost. Met a couple of touring novices who had 'em, and thought they were excellent. It wouldn't be my first choice but you could do far worse.

It's not the material, it's the design of the frame.... and even that difference is overrated. The tires and the wheels have a lot more influence on ride quality than the frame does (issues of geometry aside). I think steel frames subjectively feel nicer just because they dampen road noise better. But I sure would never give up my steel frame without a fight.

It's not the material, it's the design of the frame.... and even that difference is overrated. The tires and the wheels have a lot more influence on ride quality than the frame does (issues of geometry aside). I think steel frames subjectively feel nicer just because they dampen road noise better. But I sure would never give up my steel frame without a fight.

+1 -- I'd go even further: as far as physics/metallurgy are concerned, whatever (if any) minute differences there may be between frame materials (e.g. carbon, ti, steel, alu) and 'ride feel' are (have to be) swamped by tire/wheel design/quality/pressures, let alone seat post flex, saddle padding, bar design/bar tape or grips, etc. etc. Having said that, steel, carbon, or even ti frames can be constructed/designed (and often are) to maximize, say, ride stiffness/power transmission over 'comfort', or (any of them, including alu.) designed (frame geometry, tubing thickness/butting profiles etc.) to move the paradigm closer to 'comfort' over stiffness/acceleration -- it's not so much the material, but rather the designer's/rider's priorities. Steel does have real advantages for many applications, especially re. touring bikes (repairability in the field, ease of braze-ons, etc.), but those are different considerations.

Your right it is an old one, but one that seems to persist. :eek:Your can make a harsh feeling frame out of steel, aluminum, titanium, iron, bamboo, or wood by the way you use the material. To make a general statement about any of them without considering how the material is used is simply STUPID. Oh and by the way, the easiest one to fix after you have been hit by a truck in BFE and you somehow got away unharmed is an aluminum frame, all you need is a propane torch (as used in soldering plumbing joints) and a stick of alumaloy (http://www.alumaloy.net/). Much easier to find than a wire-fed welder necessary for the thin-wall tubing of any steel bike.:)

Note: Please don't take this as a slam on steel, it is not meant to be. I think steel frame bikes are great, especially lugged frames!!! I'm just trying to dispel this ongoing myth.:)

"Oh and by the way, the easiest one to fix after you have been hit by a truck in BFE and you somehow got away unharmed is an aluminum frame, all you need is a propane torch (as used in soldering plumbing joints) and a stick of alumaloy (http://www.alumaloy.net/). Much easier to find than a wire-fed welder necessary for the thin-wall tubing of any steel bike."

You were doing great until that point. That stuff is semi crap mostly zinc, and not a substitute for welding. I won't say it absolutely won't work, but it has been around for a long time, the sorta thing with PM recipees in the 40s. It is a low temp solder and it probably shouldn't get near any heat treated al, which is most frames.

You can TIG, MIG, or stick, fine wall chromo. The butts on most touring weight tubes are probaly around .9mm. There are some places where they are a lot thicker. That is straight forward auto body welding at far as the material thickness is concerned. Finding a tube welder is a whole other thing. But what that repair is probably going to look like is a bunch of big drips, it may well hold though. One would have to go into it with the mindset that the frame's cosmetic days may well be over.

If I was going to take something on the road to help with a possible frame repair it would be some super fine sticks. You can get ones that are thinner than the 1/16" ones, and they are designed for sheet metal repair. They are super easy to light, and can weld a frame. Slap that on a DC stick with a low amperage control and you are cruising. This would be a CR type material not a proper rod type for 4130, but if the fillet was heavy enough it would hold.

For Al you can get AC sticks in AL, I haven't tried them, but if they can be heat controlled they should be fine.

I've ridden on steel frames and I'm now on an aluminum frame. From what I've noticed, the design of the bike is a much bigger factor in the quality of the ride than the material used.

Seat, tires, Bike fit. All more important than frame material.

"Oh and by the way, the easiest one to fix after you have been hit by a truck in BFE and you somehow got away unharmed is an aluminum frame, all you need is a propane torch (as used in soldering plumbing joints) and a stick of alumaloy (http://www.alumaloy.net/). Much easier to find than a wire-fed welder necessary for the thin-wall tubing of any steel bike."

You were doing great until that point. That stuff is semi crap mostly zinc, and not a substitute for welding. I won't say it absolutely won't work, but it has been around for a long time, the sorta thing with PM recipees in the 40s. It is a low temp solder and it probably shouldn't get near any heat treated al, which is most frames.

You can TIG, MIG, or stick, fine wall chromo. The butts on most touring weight tubes are probaly around .9mm. There are some places where they are a lot thicker. That is straight forward auto body welding at far as the material thickness is concerned. Finding a tube welder is a whole other thing. But what that repair is probably going to look like is a bunch of big drips, it may well hold though. One would have to go into it with the mindset that the frame's cosmetic days may well be over.

If I was going to take something on the road to help with a possible frame repair it would be some super fine sticks. You can get ones that are thinner than the 1/16" ones, and they are designed for sheet metal repair. They are super easy to light, and can weld a frame. Slap that on a DC stick with a low amperage control and you are cruising. This would be a CR type material not a proper rod type for 4130, but if the fillet was heavy enough it would hold.

For Al you can get AC sticks in AL, I haven't tried them, but if they can be heat controlled they should be fine.

Thanks for all the welding info.:) My contention is that if I'm in a civilized area with a frame problem, I'm calling the manufacturer for a replacement frame. I think you void the warranty by welding on the frame, and even if your not, I don't trust a car mechanic to weld my expensive frame. If I broke my frame, I probably bent it pretty good too, so even after welding, I still need a new frame. In BFE I'm after a patch to get me down the road. The alumoloy has been around for a long time because it works, not great, not a permanent fix, but a patch that gets you down the road and all you have to find is a propane torch. And finding that propane torch in bfe is easier than the welder needed for said patch. Your mileage may vary.

Pretty much a non-issue really, frame breakage on good quality touring bikes is rare, and most folks don't tour in BFE. The folks that do tour in those types of places usually ride very high quality bikes where the occurrence of breakage is even more rare. Either way I'm still glad the truck didn't get ME and I'm alive and trying to figure out how to continue my tour. :)

Wow, that was long winded, steel vs Aluminum, hmmmm, think I'll go with the bamboo, just bring some yellow carpenters glue.:D
http://www.americanbamboo.org/GeneralInfoPages/BambooBicycle.html

As many people have posted, so much more than just the material. I have steel and alu bikes -honestly can't say which is better (I do love my road CAAD4 which I find incredibly smooth and definitely not harsh; I also love my Dawes Sardar which is a steel frame and gives a lovely ride).

Perhaps steel frames do ride with a little more smoothness, perhaps Alu are a little more harsh -again much has to do with design and other stuff, I can honestly say I'm not sure. Whenever I read someone say that steel is more forgiving and alu is more harsh, I have to ask, how do they know? How can they test that properly?

The only way is to test this is by either:
i. with some kinds of scientific quality instruments that measure the ride quality
or
ii. "blind taste" test the bikes you are interested in. That is to say, have not even a slightest idea which frame material you have when you test ride a bike (you could go even further and say have identical components, saddles, tyre pressures, etc, but I'm assuming it's not the frame per se, but rather the complete package of a bike that is of interest). That way all bias is removed and it's truly the bike you are feeling and not any preconceived notions (which many people seem to have).

And of course I've never heard of anybody doing either of these things when they are considering one bike over the other, nor even for vindicating a position for which frame material is better either for that matter. My position is simple: don't discount any reasonable frame material, just discount a particular complete bike package if you're unhappy with it.

yeah, the only point left to be made is over weight. my new T2000 aluminum frame and fork weighs about 2 pounds less than my miyata chromo bike.

WTF is BFE? Just another TLA?

*sigh* I wish frame material was irrelevant, I really do. 'Cause I keep walking into bike stores asking "do you have any steel road bikes in stock?" They look around sheepishly and say no. To their credit, no matter how many ignorant questions I ask about frame materials, not one sales person has said "this bike rides just like steel" or "this bike feels like steel." (Although some will say that a $2,000+ carbon bike will feel as comfortable as steel on 100+ mile rides.)

While I agree that you can modify the design to accentuate certain characteristics, the properties of frame materials are not infinitely malleable. For example, it's much easier to control the vertical and lateral compliances, soak up vibrations, and keep weight low with carbon than with alloy or steel. In terms of touring, you may need wider or lower PSI tires, or a suspension seatpost, to get an aluminum frame as comfy as steel.

Will those design trade-offs made a difference when touring? I guess that varies from one person to the next; how far they're going, how sensitive they are to road feel, are they concerned at all about efficiency? And as others have mentioned, there are factors like field repair or adding couplers, which may or may not be important.

By the way, I've toured several times on aluminum bikes, and done centuries on both alloy and steel. I'll let y'all know if sticking a Brooks on my aluminum bike magically makes it feel like steel. :D




Whenever I read someone say that steel is more forgiving and alu is more harsh, I have to ask, how do they know? How can they test that properly?
The subjective test is pretty straightforward: stick an experienced rider on the bike and get feedback. I can't definitively state what scientific tests are in use, but I'd think it's pretty simple: put the bike on the road, put a sensor on the saddle, measure vibrations.

AFAIK most of the R&D goes into racing bikes; smaller companies stick to subjective (and internal) tests, if that. E.g. I'm reasonably certain that Cannondale did at least a couple of scientific tests on their touring bike, and Surly stuck to traditional design concepts and subjective testing.

*sigh*!! OK -- I'll bite: on a diamond-framed bike, properly designed and constructed so as to resist lateral flex (which we can all agree isn't desirable?), where could 'vertical compliance' possibly come from?? This is a term one often sees used in these discussions, but I just can't see it. Even a good, high-pressure road tire provides at least 10mm's of suspension, to say nothing of saddle padding/rail deflection; given sufficient vertical force, I would have thought that one would pinch-flat or flat a rim long before there would be any conceivable/measurable vertical deflection in a pair of seatstays in compression against a seat tube?

"Thanks for all the welding info. My contention is that if I'm in a civilized area with a frame problem, I'm calling the manufacturer for a replacement frame. I think you void the warranty by welding on the frame, and even if your not, I don't trust a car mechanic to weld my expensive frame. If I broke my frame, I probably bent it pretty good too, so even after welding, I still need a new frame. In BFE I'm after a patch to get me down the road. The alumoloy has been around for a long time because it works, not great, not a permanent fix, but a patch that gets you down the road and all you have to find is a propane torch. And finding that propane torch in bfe is easier than the welder needed for said patch. Your mileage may vary."

I think you will void any warranty with the Alumaloy also. One's best chance is possibly to shoot some pictures and use those to support any claim, but at the end of the day, one either needs to fix the frame or not. Is there any example of the zinc thing successfully repairing a broken tube? Like the long enough lever and fulcrum that could move the world, even enough chewing gum could repair a tube, if one could only attach enough of it. There are accute angles though where there is little enough room to make a strong joint even in the factory.

I htink a lot of welders could patch a frame, but it is a little like forging a signature, it goes a lot better if you can do a few trial runs to warm up the hand, and in this case learn what setting burn through the tube! In my case I could do the work myself, though the same rules apply to me.

*sigh*!! OK -- I'll bite: on a diamond-framed bike, properly designed and constructed so as to resist lateral flex (which we can all agree isn't desirable?), where could 'vertical compliance' possibly come from?? This is a term one often sees used in these discussions, but I just can't see it. Even a good, high-pressure road tire provides at least 10mm's of suspension, to say nothing of saddle padding/rail deflection; given sufficient vertical force, I would have thought that one would pinch-flat or flat a rim long before there would be any conceivable/measurable vertical deflection in a pair of seatstays in compression against a seat tube?


That's my point, but better put - surely there's too much give everywhere else to allow the frame to exhibit any tendency to absorb shock. I can see that frame design can make a bike more comfortable, but I can't see how material can.

It's not the material, it's the design of the frame.... and even that difference is overrated. The tires and the wheels have a lot more influence on ride quality than the frame does (issues of geometry aside).

Ding ding - we have a winna!!!!

... Brad

That's my point, but better put - surely there's too much give everywhere else to allow the frame to exhibit any tendency to absorb shock. I can see that frame design can make a bike more comfortable, but I can't see how material can.

Gotte: dunno about 'better put', but just had to respond on this business, which seems to come up all the time! Basic engineering etc. just doesn't seem to support this 'steel is real' notion; don't get me wrong, I think in fact that high-quality steel (e.g. Reynolds 725 and up and their equivalents) is a wonderful material for bike frames, especially touring/expedition bikes, but as I said above, for other reasons, not some notional, magical, 'ride quality'.

Aah, there's the problem I'm trying to highlight -how can you have a subjective test when you know the frame material? It's a self fulfilling prophecy; some people just like steel, hence a steel bike will always feel like it rides better to that person. And just from these boards, it seems some of the "steel is real" folks do seem to hold an almost evangelical view of steel as being a superior frame material -and I'd guess are more susceptible to this self fulfilling prophecy.

Another thought: a sensor on the saddle sounds good -but what about rider weight? And how "positive" is the rider input is to power transmission? How noodly does the frame feel? All of these wouldn't be addressed with just a single sensor on the saddle. I think you'd have to have quite a few sensors all over the bike.

And that's my other point -for the average person who declares material superiority, these tests just aren't an option -it comes down to (and I'll stick my neck out here) mostly uninformed opinion (which of course, everyone is entitled to!) about bikes they've often never ridden, nor would..... of course, based on their opinion.

All said and done, I think you're much better off having a real human test ride *their* proposed bike to see how good it feels, and with an attempted open mind to frame material. I would just love to see a completely blind test of bicycle frames with different materials and the results.


The subjective test is pretty straightforward: stick an experienced rider on the bike and get feedback. I can't definitively state what scientific tests are in use, but I'd think it's pretty simple: put the bike on the road, put a sensor on the saddle, measure vibrations.