Fifty Plus (50+) - A scientific question

Does the insulating properties of my rubber tires and carbon fork outweigh the electricity conducting properties of the steel frame on my bicycle during a sudden thunderstorm with lots and lots of brilliant and highly impressive nearby lightning?

A lightning bolt travels hundreds/thousands of feet through the air to reach the earth. I wouldn't count on a skinny little rubber tire to slow it down much.

When this lightning strikes, will your tires be wet?

Lately some car and truck tires have been hardened with silicates but
in the past they had lots of carbon, as in black, messy, conductive carbon.
Toll booth operators hate the silicate tires because without the carbon
grounding the tires they get more shocks. I suppose you'll ask next
about bike tires!!

I don't know anything about the electrical properties of carbon fiber either.

No.

A lightning bolt travels hundreds/thousands of feet through the air to reach the earth. I wouldn't count on a skinny little rubber tire to slow it down much.

VERY TRUE .The lightening just doesn't "care", It'll jump. Many individuals who are struck and live are actually "struck" by PART of the bolt's electricity spreading after the direct hit. Your chances of getting a direct hit are very slim anyway.Tires,carbon .. none of that matters.As far as the indirect hit, nothing you can do about that either. Down here in NC, knowing farmers, not at all unusual to encounter someone who's been struckto one degree or another. It can travel through a phone receiver. Golfers and farmers are at greatest risk. Out in the open,it matters less how high an object is. Seek cover if you want to be protected. If you live in the San Francisco Bay area,you've virtually NO chance of getting hit. Tire and fork selection are not key.

If you are out riding and a thunderstorm rolls in on you, then you should get off of your bike and hold it up in the air to ward off the lightning.

But shouting defiance at the sky will help keep it away.

(So somebody please remove this post because I can't stop myself from adding this joke:
What's the difference between a rooster and a lawyer?
A: The rooster clucks defiance.)

Does the insulating properties of my rubber tires and carbon fork outweigh the electricity conducting properties of the steel frame on my bicycle during a sudden thunderstorm with lots and lots of brilliant and highly impressive nearby lightning?

If you get hit by lightning, it is a sign you are already a low-impedance path to earth, and hence some pointy aspect of your head was more pointy, and most especially taller, than anything else in the locale!

So if you get hit the lightning will conduct through your body to the frame, arc across the bearing interfaces and cross the tires. Now tire are rubber, but heavily filled with lampblack. This makes them conductive, but to around a millionth the degree of conductivity as the steel frame, or your wet body. The lightning energy will probably force an arc across the tires, melting them.

But this is all extremely unlikely, because you would need to be far from anything taller than you: a tree, a building, a utility pole.

FWIW, as an electical engineer who has studied grounding and lightining protection systems, I agree your tires shouldn't insulate you significantly.

Road Fan

If you get hit by lightning, it is a sign you are already a low-impedance path to earth, and hence some pointy aspect of your head was more pointy, and most especially taller, than anything else in the locale!

So if you get hit the lightning will conduct through your body to the frame, arc across the bearing interfaces and cross the tires. Now tire are rubber, but heavily filled with lampblack. This makes them conductive, but to around a millionth the degree of conductivity as the steel frame, or your wet body. The lightning energy will probably force an arc across the tires, melting them.

But this is all extremely unlikely, because you would need to be far from anything taller than you: a tree, a building, a utility pole.

FWIW, as an electical engineer who has studied grounding and lightining protection systems, I agree your tires shouldn't insulate you significantly.

Road Fan

Talking about lightning bolts, how about those Mountaineers!! Sorry-just couldn't resist!

And as a fellow EE I'd agree that if lightning is that close it's going to go to ground.......and go through the tires if necessary.

I do worry about this subject because I do take chances with riding in borderline weather. If I were not, I would not be biking most of the time in this area.
I do not know what is correct. I was told that the ground provides conduit for the lightening to connect to. That means that anything what looks like ground is to be avoided such as water lines on Golf courses and Golf Clubs and a bike wet on wet ground.
I am not sure about any of this so please educate me.
The fact is that I often bike in T. Storms.

OMG, let yet another EE weigh in...lighting will strike the highest object in its path. We know from lightning protection theory that there is a cone of protection that extends from higher objects (assumes lower resistance) to lower ones. However, this does not mean that the lightning cannot jump from one object to anther that offers a lower path of resistance.

Golf courses offer the most opportunity to be struct by lightning due to the open areas and trees offer points of collection and humans under tress offering a possible alternative path to ground.

The positive approach would be to concentrate on lightening the bike, not lightning the bike.

Cars offer some protection because they route the electricity around you. It creates what is known as a "Faraday Cage". If you could climb inside of your bike frame, it would offer the same protection.

The tires offer no protection. Think of it. In the rain, the tires are wet. The electricity goes straight down them.

Actually, the first thing the lightning will do is overheat the air in your tires causing them to go flat. About 3 miliseconds later when the rims touch the pavement you will fry.

You wanna see Bolts, come see the Chargers, baby.

No, go find the nearest tree.

...okay, I'm not blonde, but which is safer in a lightning storm: Fetal position under a tree or fetal position on open ground?

Because we get fewer than 10 thunderstorms per year in this part of California (wrong thread, sorry) and I've completely forgotten how we dealt with them in parts of the country prone to thunderstorms (which we are not, here in glorious California).

No, go find the nearest tree.

...okay, I'm not blonde, but which is safer in a lightning storm: Fetal position under a tree or fetal position on open ground?

Because we get fewer than 10 thunderstorms per year in this part of California (wrong thread, sorry) and I've completely forgotten how we dealt with them in parts of the country prone to thunderstorms (which we are not, here in glorious California).

When I was a kid back in Ohio, a buddy and I camped out under a big BIG old dead tree. Something made us move our tent that night, which was a good thing. Sometime during the night there was a violent thunderstorm and lightning to beat the band. We discovered why you're not supposed to touch the inside of a canvas tent during a rainstorm, btw...

Anyway, next morning we went back by that big old tree. A branch as large as most trees had snapped off, the result of lightning. Landed right over where our tent was. We'd a been dead had we stayed there. So...I opt for fetal position on open ground. YMMV

I do not know what is correct. I was told that the ground provides conduit for the lightening to connect to. That means that anything what looks like ground is to be avoided such as water lines on Golf courses and Golf Clubs and a bike wet on wet ground.
I am not sure about any of this so please educate me.
The fact is that I often bike in T. Storms.

Short list:
http://weathereye.kgan.com/cadet/lightning/safety_rules.html
http://www.health.state.ny.us/environmental/emergency/weather/lightning/

Long List:
http://usscouts.org/usscouts/safety/safe-lightning.asp

The fact is that I often bike in T. Storms.

I live in the lightening capital of the US. Please do not ride your bike when you can hear thunder even if the sky is clear. We get people killed almost weekly down here from lightening. Roofers, landscapers and a couple of months ago a diver who surfaced off shore. Lightening can hit from quite far away even when the sky is blue above you so riding in an active thunder storm is risky. We have lightening detection systems at most of the schools and golf courses, when I hear the sirens go off I head for home.

http://www.bocaratonnews.com/index.php?src=news&refno=20965&category=Local%20News

I live in the lightening capital of the US. Please do not ride your bike when you can hear thunder even if the sky is clear. We get people killed almost weekly down here from lightening. Roofers, landscapers and a couple of months ago a diver who surfaced off shore. Lightening can hit from quite far away even when the sky is blue above you so riding in an active thunder storm is risky. We have lightening detection systems at most of the schools and gold courses, when I hear the sirens go off I head for home.

For more info

http://www.bocaratonnews.com/index.php?src=news&refno=20965&category=Local%20News

I have to disagree. There were over 40,000 folks killed by cars just last year in the US of A. Using your line of reasoning, one should never drive (nor ride a bike). Average lightning deaths per year for the entire US of A is 44 deaths.

Lightning deaths receive TREMENDOUS publicity. Automobile deaths (and bicycle deaths) receive a little side article, if anything.

Florida is 1st, Colorado is 2nd.

Lightning Deaths by State, ranking. 1997-2006

State Deaths Rank of
1997-2006 Deaths
Alabama 16 6
Alaska 0 47
Arizona 9 17
Arkansas 11 12
California 7 22
Colorado 30 2
Connecticut 2 38
Delaware 0 48
D.C. 0 49
Florida 71 1
Georgia 21 4
Hawaii 0 50
Idaho 2 37
Illinois 11 13
Indiana 6 26
Iowa 3 31
Kansas 2 38
Kentucky 7 23
Louisiana 16 7
Maine 2 39
Maryland 6 27
Massachusetts 2 40
Michigan 10 16
Minnesota 2 41
Mississippi 11 14
Missouri 7 24
Montana 5 29
Nebraska 4 30
Nevada 1 44
New Hampshire 0 51
State Deaths Rank of
1997-2006 Deaths
New Jersey 9 18
New Mexico 3 32
New York 7 25
North Carolina 19 5
North Dakota 1 45
Ohio 13 8
Oklahoma 8 20
Oregon 1 46
Pennsylvania 12 10
Puerto Rico 3 32
Rhode Island 3 34
South Carolina 13 9
South Dakota 3 35
Tennessee 12 11
Texas 25 3
Utah 11 15
Vermont 2 42
Virginia 9 19
Washington 0 52
West Virginia 2 43
Wisconsin 8 21
Wyoming 6 28

TOTAL 1997-2006
United States 437

Annual MV Deaths, USA, last 10 years (through 2005):

42,065
42,013
41,501
41,717
41,945
42,196
43,005
42,884
42,836
43,443

You wanna see Bolts, come see the Chargers, baby.

Why settle for an imitation. We have the real thing here.....the local high school - Northmont T-Bolts:p:p

You wanna see Bolts, come see the Chargers, baby.

Let's talk after sunday night, GO PATS :D

Actually, the first thing the lightning will do is overheat the air in your tires causing them to go flat. About 3 miliseconds later when the rims touch the pavement you will fry.

I was afraid that might be the deal.:eek:

No, go find the nearest tree.

...okay, I'm not blonde, but which is safer in a lightning storm: Fetal position under a tree or fetal position on open ground?

Because we get fewer than 10 thunderstorms per year in this part of California (wrong thread, sorry) and I've completely forgotten how we dealt with them in parts of the country prone to thunderstorms (which we are not, here in glorious California).

Old article but nothing has changed.

http://science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/essd18jun99_1.htm

Isolated trees, telephone booths, and open structures like gazebos or porches make poor lightning shelters. If there is a tall object nearby, move as far away as possible - at least 2 meters (7 ft). Standing next to tall isolated objects like poles or towers makes you vulnerable to secondary discharges coming off those objects.

I have to disagree. There were over 40,000 folks killed by cars just last year in the US of A. Using your line of reasoning, one should never drive (nor ride a bike). Average lightning deaths per year for the entire US of A is 44 deaths. But of the 40,000 only about 700 were riding bikes. However, there were about 5000 pedestrians killed. Ride, don't walk!

Seriously, a big reason that lightning deaths are so rare is that people generally don't go out and play in lightning storms. Comparing numbers that way is like saying that it must be safe to walk on freeways, because so few pedestrians are killed there.

I have to disagree. There were over 40,000 folks killed by cars just last year in the US of A. Using your line of reasoning, one should never drive (nor ride a bike). Average lightning deaths per year for the entire US of A is 44 deaths.


Well we each pick our own risks. I have to drive to get to work so I accept the risk and try to drive safely, I will not give up riding so I accept the risk of cycling on the road and take caution. However, lightening only affects maybe a ride a month for me so I will not take the risk for that one or two days of additional rides a month. May not be rational but it works for me. Interestingly Colorado ranks third for deaths per capita while Florida is of course #1

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa32/stonecrd/1990-2003FatalityRate.gif

Where there is lightning there is typically rain. I'd rather not get the bike wet - it attracts dirt and water, road salt and steel = rust.

Well we each pick our own risks. I have to drive to get to work so I accept the risk and try to drive safely, I will not give up riding so I accept the risk of cycling on the road and take caution. However, lightening only affects maybe a ride a month for me so I will not take the risk for that one or two days of additional rides a month. May not be rational but it works for me. Interestingly Colorado ranks third for deaths per capita while Florida is of course #1



On a per capita basis, Colorado should be number one! And the chart I have ranks Colorado 2nd in total for 10 years ending in 2006.

Colorado 30 2

Sometimes we get so much thunder around here, that one might be confined to the home for extended periods if they stayed inside whenever they heard thunder

Seriously, a big reason that lightning deaths are so rare is that people generally don't go out and play in lightning storms.

Can you justify your statement with a cite? Perhaps the primary reason there are so few lightning deaths is because it doesn't hit folks very often, outside or inside.

Here is the statement to which I was originally responding:

"Please do not ride your bike when you can hear thunder even if the sky is clear."

If I followed that rule around here, there would be some days when I would never get out, perhaps even several days in a row. Last week was one of them.

My point being, the danger of lightning is grossly over-exaggerated and hyped, particularly by the local weatherman and newscasters, while the greater dangers of automobiles is totally neglected.

BUt, during ACTIVE lightning storms, I do seek appropriate shelter

When I was a kid back in Ohio, a buddy and I camped out under a big BIG old dead tree. Something made us move our tent that night, which was a good thing. Sometime during the night there was a violent thunderstorm and lightning to beat the band. We discovered why you're not supposed to touch the inside of a canvas tent during a rainstorm, btw...

Anyway, next morning we went back by that big old tree. A branch as large as most trees had snapped off, the result of lightning. Landed right over where our tent was. We'd a been dead had we stayed there. So...I opt for fetal position on open ground. YMMV

I think this is right. The lightnign is more likely to strike the tall object, the tree. When the bolt hits the ground, a high (huge!!!) concentration of current is right under you, and some of it will couple into your body. It doesn't take much to be harmful or worse. To boot the tree could fragment on top of you. Out in the field you are less likely to be hit, and if there is a nearby strike the ground current is far less intense.

Road Fan

Where there is lightning there is typically rain. I'd rather not get the bike wet - it attracts dirt and water, road salt and steel = rust.


So rain is equivelent to lightning protection.

LOL!

Road Fan

When I think carbon fiber these days, the first thing that comes to mind is nanotubes! Too much time in a semiconductor development lab environment... Depending on structure, the carbon fiber could either be a decent insulator (as it is surrounded by epoxy resin ??), or a reasonable conductor.

Can you justify your statement with a cite? Perhaps the primary reason there are so few lightning deaths is because it doesn't hit folks very often, outside or inside.But that does not conflict with what I said.

VERY TRUE .The lightening just doesn't "care", It'll jump. Many individuals who are struck and live are actually "struck" by PART of the bolt's electricity spreading after the direct hit. Your chances of getting a direct hit are very slim anyway.Tires,carbon .. none of that matters.As far as the indirect hit, nothing you can do about that either. Down here in NC, knowing farmers, not at all unusual to encounter someone who's been struckto one degree or another. It can travel through a phone receiver. Golfers and farmers are at greatest risk. Out in the open,it matters less how high an object is. Seek cover if you want to be protected. If you live in the San Francisco Bay area,you've virtually NO chance of getting hit. Tire and fork selection are not key.

Make sure cover is not a tree! You are far more conductive than a tree and electricity follows the path of least resistance, i.e. you. If trees are the only cover, lying in a ditch is the best alternative.

Terrier'. At that level of amperage and voltage, the current passes right over the surface of tire AND frame. Their safety contribution in that environment is nil.

Please do not ride your bike when you can hear thunder even if the sky is clear.



Here is a recent article from our local paper. According to this, there are about 100 days so far this year that I would have to not ride my bicycle or stop a ride because I heard thunder.

http://www.zwire.com/site/tab8.cfm?newsid=18837999&BRD=2713&PAG=461&dept_id=559193&rfi=6

(Douglas County, CO) is Bull's Eye for Lightning Strikes

The Front Range, particularly near the Palmer Divide on the south end of the county, is a hotbed for lightning strikes. It is at the top of the list for the highest frequency for lightning strikes in the country, Simmons said.

Does the insulating properties of my rubber tires and carbon fork outweigh the electricity conducting properties of the steel frame on my bicycle during a sudden thunderstorm with lots and lots of brilliant and highly impressive nearby lightning?

It's like steroid and EPO use. Sure, you can get some short term benefits, but in the long term your health is likely to suffer.

So if you insist on using tornados and such to pad your mileage, then you have to live with the risks.

................................................................................................Plea se do not ride your bike when you can hear thunder even if the sky is clear.................................................................
http://www.bocaratonnews.com/index.php?src=news&refno=20965&category=Local%20News

If I were to follow your advise I would not be biking and enjoy the outdoors. The weather forecast always errs on the side of caution. If there is the slightest chance of a rain, they predict T. Storms. There is no penalty for false positive for T. Storm so they are predicting it on the slightest evidence.
I would have to take the risk of staying home, feel depressed, eat, get fat and die early.

If I were to follow your advise I would not be biking and enjoy the outdoors. The weather forecast always errs on the side of caution. If there is the slightest chance of a rain, they predict T. Storms. There is no penalty for false positive for T. Storm so they are predicting it on the slightest evidence.
I would have to take the risk of staying home, feel depressed, eat, get fat and die early.

I think your missing my point which was to not ride during active thunderstorms and just because it is clear overhead if there is a thunderstorm nearby you can still be at risk. I manage to ride >5000 miles per year and we have storms year round and daily in the summer. So I think you can ride and stay fit and avoid lightening.

There was a post on road biking section about a guy who got hit with lightning while biking. But he was off the bike and taking a leak when he got struck in the penis with a(one would assume) low level bolt of lightning as he lived to tell of it. What a pickup line "want to see where I got hit by lightning?"

Biker's penis hit by lightning (http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_2517312.html)

A Croatian motorbiker's penis was zapped by lightning as he stopped beside the road to take a leak.

Ante Djindjic, 29, from Zagreb, said: "I don't remember what happened. One minute I was taking a leak and the next thing I knew I was in hospital.

"Doctors said the lightning went through my body and because I was wearing rubber boots it earthed itself through my penis."

Djindjic, who suffered light burns to his chest and arms, added: "Thankfully, the doctors said that there would be no lasting effects, and my penis will function normally eventually."