Clydesdales/Athenas (200+ lb / 91+ kg) - An Ode to a cracked frame

Anyone want a Trek 7.3FX?

Rant here: http://optifat.blogspot.com/2007/09/snap-crackle-pop.html

Image:
http://bp3.blogger.com/_ysiJFvX1F0E/RudHtDK6aNI/AAAAAAAAAE8/ip4YKi27vio/s1600/Photo_091107_001.jpg

Anyone want a Trek 7.3FX?

Rant here: http://optifat.blogspot.com/2007/09/snap-crackle-pop.html

Image:
http://bp3.blogger.com/_ysiJFvX1F0E/RudHtDK6aNI/AAAAAAAAAE8/ip4YKi27vio/s1600/Photo_091107_001.jpg

Not a hundred percent sure as the picture is a little blurry but I think that's the result of a bad weld, not a bad frame. It looks like it cracked through the weld and then migrated up into the frame itself. Aluminum actually flexes quite nicely, the only problem is that it tends to stay that way, so in bike frames they have to make it heavy enough that the duty cycle (number of flexes before permanent change occurs) is high enough to prevent the frame from folding up the first time someone sits on it. This causes issue with getting good penetration on the welds as well as some issues with the heat treating at the weld site. My guess would be that they didn't get it warm enough in the ovens when they heat treated it, or some minor contaminant within the weld (why they use carbon dioxide and not helium for this is something I really can't fathom since the cost would be a bout a penny a frame on that scale). Anyways you failure was probably the statistical anomaly. I say ride the new one when you get it.

The life time warranty pays off. Those LHT's are cool.

Dude, that so sucks. Between your wheel issues and then this. Just damn.

I'm dreaming of an LHT too... if you get one first, I can't wait to hear about it! That seriously sucks, about your Trek. I'm going to be checking my aluminum frame too, now!

Aluminum sucks if you ask me.

Similar thing happened to me last summer with my Cannondale R1000. A mystery snapping noise developed into a cracked bottom bracket shell. Took me over a year to get them to warranty it but finally I am getting a new R1000 frame. And yeah, I'm going to sell it.

Anyway, sorry to hear about your Trek. At least not all is lost. You'll still be able to sell it and you won't have to fight tooth and nail for a year for your warranty. Btw...you might want to check your helmet for cracks if you really threw it across the lawn!

Interesting. My Trek 7200 frame is Alpha ALuminum as well and I have had no troubles with it (6,400+ miles). Are you the one that does some off-roading on your bike?


Congrats on the LHT bike choice. That will certainly be an upgrade!

That stinks. :( I opened the thread cautiously because I was afraid it was going to be the HardRock.

Be happy that didnt happen going downhill @30 mph.

Dude, that so sucks. Between your wheel issues and then this. Just damn.

But I still rode today. The fiancee got a little worried last night after she saw it, and started suggested other workout methods. But, she even said, "I know you, it could have resulted in a year at the hospital learning how to walk again, then you'd still get back on the damn bike", can't say she's lying ;D

But yes. That bike, unfortunately, just isn't for me.

I'm dreaming of an LHT too... if you get one first, I can't wait to hear about it! That seriously sucks, about your Trek. I'm going to be checking my aluminum frame too, now!

It'll be awile, I have a wedding to pay for in about two weeks, but after that the savings will be going straight to "new bike fund".

All is not lost, I have a Hardrock. And they are made of the iron from Chuck Norris' own forge.

Aluminum sucks if you ask me.

Similar thing happened to me last summer with my Cannondale R1000. A mystery snapping noise developed into a cracked bottom bracket shell. Took me over a year to get them to warranty it but finally I am getting a new R1000 frame. And yeah, I'm going to sell it.

Anyway, sorry to hear about your Trek. At least not all is lost. You'll still be able to sell it and you won't have to fight tooth and nail for a year for your warranty. Btw...you might want to check your helmet for cracks if you really threw it across the lawn!

Ouch! I've heard about Cannondale and warranties, that sucks to hear in person, though.

That is the only shining light, that everyone says Trek is "awesome" about warranties and frames. Here's hoping :)

Good luck on the replacement frame and repair. Then sell the bike and get what you want. I never knew how much bicycling would change my attititude towards other things and the different people I meet on the trails. Have you taken it in to TREK to see what they say about the repair and replacement costs, if any. I would hope they would replace the frame for free and do the labor to switch all of the components for free also. But these days it really is hard to say.

Interesting. My Trek 7200 frame is Alpha ALuminum as well and I have had no troubles with it (6,400+ miles). Are you the one that does some off-roading on your bike?


Congrats on the LHT bike choice. That will certainly be an upgrade!

Heh, I never offroad on the 7.3, but I beat the holy snot out of my Hardrock. Ironically, no issues there, but it's a Hardrock. Downside is what I remembered this morning.. street + Hardrock /= Trek FX + street :(. By all accounts this really is/should be just a fluke, but I've pretty much lost faith/trust in the bike. Had this have been a catastrophic failure five minutes earlier, the best result is that I would have hit pavement at 20mph. Worst result is that I would have hit pavement, and the car behind me would have run me over.

I'm pretty stoked about the LHT, I've wanted one essentially since I started cycling. I'll do some minor customizations to the "LHT complete" build, but I'm sure it'll be a tank.

That stinks. :( I opened the thread cautiously because I was afraid it was going to be the HardRock.

Fear not, the Hardrock is going strong. After this morning's commute, it's 45 miles away from the millenium mark. I'm pretty sure, like I said before, that Specialized contracted Chuck Norris to build the thing. If only it was a little more comfy and speedy, I'd never have a stray eye :D

Be happy that didnt happen going downhill @30 mph.

Ironic you mention that. Going home is a steep (5-6%) quarter mile downhill that I fly down. Yesterday I figured it was a BB issue, so I flew down. Had it been catastrophic, well, it would have been painful. Or on the shoulder of the highway I was on. Or on the busy street I was on right before that.

But yes, at least it held together. That makes me a little happy :)

Good luck on the replacement frame and repair. Then sell the bike and get what you want. I never knew how much bicycling would change my attititude towards other things and the different people I meet on the trails. Have you taken it in to TREK to see what they say about the repair and replacement costs, if any. I would hope they would replace the frame for free and do the labor to switch all of the components for free also. But these days it really is hard to say.

From what I was told last night, it's about 99.9% likely that Trek will provide a direct replacement frame, and all I'll have to cover is the labor costs. I think that's fair, really, but a tad on the annoying side. Annoying toward Trek, not the shop.

And while I love to save money, I think from now on I'm going to invest more in my cycling habit. The price of the Long Haul Trucker seems trivial when I think about what a catastrophic frame failure on the shoulder of the highway would have resulted in. At least the steel frame would give me some warning :).

This is the first FX Frame Failure that I've seen. I am positive that Trek will take care of it with no questions asked. Some shops will absorb the cost of the frame swap to provide "Good Will" to the Customer, others may not. If you were keeping the bike, this would be the time to upgrade parts like the Bottom Bracket and Headset to higher quality and more durable parts. I understand your situation with your wedding coming up.

The LHT is a great frame and it's always been that way. I have yet to hear anything bad about one of these frame sets.

Good Luck to you!

Ironic you mention that. Going home is a steep (5-6%) quarter mile downhill that I fly down. Yesterday I figured it was a BB issue, so I flew down. Had it been catastrophic, well, it would have been painful. Or on the shoulder of the highway I was on. Or on the busy street I was on right before that.

But yes, at least it held together. That makes me a little happy :)

Speaking of scares on a steep DH, check out this frame break story from Elden, the "Fat Cyclist". ;) Be very happy this didn't happen to you ;)

http://www.fatcyclist.com/2006/07/06/rip/

IIRC, you haven't had that bike very long.
Wouldn't they have something like "free replacement" in the first year?
I can understand paying labor if my frame was 20 years old!
NOT if it's "relatively new".
The FRAME is the "soul" of the bike. The rest of the bike is just the parts that are installed on it!
IMO, TREK should "make you whole" at THEIR expense.

Fear not, the Hardrock is going strong. After this morning's commute, it's 45 miles away from the millenium mark. I'm pretty sure, like I said before, that Specialized contracted Chuck Norris to build the thing. If only it was a little more comfy and speedy, I'd never have a stray eye :D

I hear ya! I have pimped mine out to a pretty functional hybrid/commuter but it will always be more Land Rover than Lamborghini. ;)

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1085/1350410269_40d681263d.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/stujoe/1350410269/)

Speaking of scares on a steep DH, check out this frame break story from Elden, the "Fat Cyclist". ;) Be very happy this didn't happen to you ;)

http://www.fatcyclist.com/2006/07/06/rip/

That has to be the scariest thing I have ever seen. I didn't know a down tube could realistically break without a crash involved!

Heh, I never offroad on the 7.3, but I beat the holy snot out of my Hardrock. Ironically, no issues there, but it's a Hardrock. Downside is what I remembered this morning.. street + Hardrock /= Trek FX + street :(. By all accounts this really is/should be just a fluke, but I've pretty much lost faith/trust in the bike. Had this have been a catastrophic failure five minutes earlier, the best result is that I would have hit pavement at 20mph. Worst result is that I would have hit pavement, and the car behind me would have run me over.

I'm pretty stoked about the LHT, I've wanted one essentially since I started cycling. I'll do some minor customizations to the "LHT complete" build, but I'm sure it'll be a tank.

+1 on the LHT, I have one that I bought back in June or July. I wanted a steel road bike with a triple chainring, and the LHT looked like the best choice. Also I wanted to stay away from the "compact" frame geometry, as I feel that style frame too often leaves a lot of seat tube exposed above the clamp, which acts like a lever trying to pry the frame apart. Not too expensive, either, compared to some other bikes made out of old Fresca cans and frozen snot! I'm 6' - 2-1/2" tall with 24" wide shoulders and size 14 feet - no problems with toe-overlap even with the canoes I wear.

When I got on the scale this morning I was 265 lbs. A bike made to carry a load seemed like a good idea. I paid just under $1200 for mine. It was more or less "custom built" by my LBS,, who pretty much hit what I wanted right on the head. Here's a pic:

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c354/tpelle/Surly_LHT/Surly_LHT001.jpg

I intended to use mine as a road bike, not for touring, so it was built with 700 x 28 high-pressure tires instead of the 700 x 35's as usually used. I particularly like the bar-end shifters - shifts smooth and accurately every time. I really appreciate the ability to "tune" the front derailleur to eliminate the chain clicking on it as the chain angle changes across the rear cogs.

My experience with "indexing" shifters as used on most "modern" bikes is that they seem to be "fiddly" - they are always needing a 1/2 turn on a barrel adjuster to keep them shifting smooth. The bar-ends just work - every time.

I recently had the LHT back to the shop for it's first tune-up. The young lady - part owner of the shop, I think - working there, when I remarked how much I liked the bar-end shifters, admitted that she had never ridden a bike that had them. I guess we have a whole generation coming up that know nothing but brifters - their loss!

Good luck on the replacement frame and repair. Then sell the bike and get what you want. I never knew how much bicycling would change my attititude towards other things and the different people I meet on the trails. Have you taken it in to TREK to see what they say about the repair and replacement costs, if any. I would hope they would replace the frame for free and do the labor to switch all of the components for free also. But these days it really is hard to say.

What happens, depends partly on the dealer, if the company does not include the labour

1) The dealer eats the cost of labour, because it's a way to keep a customer.
2) The dealer offers to take the old bike (including the new frame) in trade on a new bike, that and the discounts on 2007 models on the floor can leave you out very little money.
3) The dealer leaves you to cover the labour costs. If the dealer isn't able to help you out, at least a little, I would collect my bike and new frame, then either do a build project, or part it out on fleabay or CL.

That LHT is an awesome looking bike! I never really looked at them before. It has a throwback/vintage look to it.

Out in PA I can think of 5-6 instances where Trek and Gary Fisher frames (sub $1000 aluminum) failed under larger riders at the bottom bracket over the last 4 years or so. I was actually in the shop last spring when a 300 lb. guy came in with a Gary Fisher; the chainstays had separated from the bottom bracket shell! It was the ugliest frame failure I had ever seen. I have to think that this is not coincidence.

If you're going to buy aluminum from one of the big companies, I'd stick with Specialized. I've tried my best to kill my old M2 mountain frame over the last 10 years so that I can justify an upgrade. It rides like it's brand new.

Not too expensive, either, compared to some other bikes made out of old Fresca cans and frozen snot!

:roflmao:

When I got on the scale this morning I was 265 lbs. A bike made to carry a load seemed like a good idea. I paid just under $1200 for mine. It was more or less "custom built" by my LBS,, who pretty much hit what I wanted right on the head. Here's a pic:

I intended to use mine as a road bike, not for touring, so it was built with 700 x 28 high-pressure tires instead of the 700 x 35's as usually used. I particularly like the bar-end shifters - shifts smooth and accurately every time. I really appreciate the ability to "tune" the front derailleur to eliminate the chain clicking on it as the chain angle changes across the rear cogs.

My experience with "indexing" shifters as used on most "modern" bikes is that they seem to be "fiddly" - they are always needing a 1/2 turn on a barrel adjuster to keep them shifting smooth. The bar-ends just work - every time.


Indexed Brifters were a bike shops dream, because bikes then went from needing annual service in the off season (your basic $45 tuneup, with maybe some brake pads every couple of years). To needing almost bi-weekly adjusting and for people unable to do that adjusting themselves, it meant another shop adjustment, so now you ended up going to the bike shop, twice a month, even if the shop does the adjustment for free while you wait, you still end up looking at the accessory wall, and 90% of people end up buying something. Different then when you used to drop the bike off the first week of January, and picked it up when they called (no hurry guys, I don't need it until the middle of March).

Of course for those of us who can do the adjustment ourselves, we can avoid the shop visit, I need to goof with mine on the weekend. Works perfectly on the up shift, but drags a little on the down shift.

Nice thing about the LHT is that in the future if you decide to do some touring, you can swap the tires, add a couple of racks, some fenders and your good to go. Probably do it for under $200....


I recently had the LHT back to the shop for it's first tune-up. The young lady - part owner of the shop, I think - working there, when I remarked how much I liked the bar-end shifters, admitted that she had never ridden a bike that had them. I guess we have a whole generation coming up that no nothing but brifters - their loss!

Most younger folk are more likely to be more familiar with the trigger shifters found on flat bar ATB/MTB bikes then brifters, but the indexed trigger shifters are just as fiddly.:rolleyes:

I never had downtube shifters or bar end shifters. Closest thing I had was friction thumb shifters on my Bridgestone mountainbike.

So I understand the advantages of friction shifting but I don't think that's a good argument against brifters. Like you said, once you figure out the barrel adjuster, it's not that big of a deal to tweak your shifting. As far as I'm concerned brifters are better because they allow you to shift without moving your hands in two positions.

The real knock on brifters, I think, is the cost and possibility of mechanical failure (at least you can work on the campy stuff). If nothing else, they tend to accumulate dirt and become sticky after a few years. If I could get the same bike with bar end shifters for $100-$200 less, I'd probably do it.

I never had downtube shifters or bar end shifters. Closest thing I had was friction thumb shifters on my Bridgestone mountainbike.

So I understand the advantages of friction shifting but I don't think that's a good argument against brifters. Like you said, once you figure out the barrel adjuster, it's not that big of a deal to tweak your shifting. As far as I'm concerned brifters are better because they allow you to shift without moving your hands in two positions.

The real knock on brifters, I think, is the cost and possibility of mechanical failure (at least you can work on the campy stuff). If nothing else, they tend to accumulate dirt and become sticky after a few years. If I could get the same bike with bar end shifters for $100-$200 less, I'd probably do it.

I think shifter wise, it's what you get used to, in the 1960's ALL shifters were down tube shifters, in the 1970's they added the centre of the bars shifters, but 90% were still down tube shifters, these were all friction shift. Bar-ends were probably developed soon after, and saw the first real attempt at deraileur indexing, but like brifter type mechanisms it occurs at the shifter, which means you have a 2m or so run of cable, which is not straight requiring great precision, and that makes the whole mechanism complex.

In some way I think that an electronic system would work better, and be more precise, and make the shifter/brifter much more reliable, in that it would just be a pair of switches. I have an idea of how to build it, I just need $50,000,000 to develop it:D

i have a friend who rides a long haul trucker... i'm thinking about getting one next spring. they are gorgeous. they ride great. they are reasonably priced. yada-yada-yada....

be,

jim

In some way I think that an electronic system would work better, and be more precise, and make the shifter/brifter much more reliable, in that it would just be a pair of switches. I have an idea of how to build it, I just need $50,000,000 to develop it:D

You mean like this?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/tech/news/03-09/20814.jpg

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/tech/news/03-09/20818.jpg

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/tech/news/03-09/20809.jpg

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/tech/news/03-09/20810.jpg

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/tech/news/03-09/20813.jpg


http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2006/news/03-09

As far as I'm concerned brifters are better because they allow you to shift without moving your hands in two positions.


I'm not sure I understand your point. With any shifter you have to move your hands to whatever position the shifter is operated from. I suppose the only type of bike that would not require you to reposition your hand is one that uses flat bars, like a mountain bike - but of course with that type of bike you only have one position for the hands anyway.

When I ordered the Trucker I had misgivings that I would like the bar-ends - it just seemed like an inconvenient place to put the shifters and I wasn't sure how convenient it would be to reach down and back like that. In practice I found that it took no time at all to get used to them. It really is a natural-feeling movement.

I guess what I'm saying is that the shifters have to go somewhere, and on a road bike with drop bars it's probably going to require a hand movement to somewhere to accomplish a shift. The bar-ends turned out, for me, to be in a pretty good place. Others may hate 'em. Each to his own.

I do like being able to determine what gear I'm in just by glancing at the position of the handle, or even just reaching down and feeling what position the handle is in. The front shifter is a pure-friction shifter. The rear, however, is a "ratcheting" shifter, where the handle "clicks" into discrete and definite positions. However, it can be quickly and easily switched to a pure-friction mode just by turning the "nut" at the center of the shifter. This gives one the ability to continue shifting if the system gets seriously out of adjustment - say, after a crash that mislocates the rear derailleur.

A case in point is that, just before I took my bike in for its tune-up, I was hearing a scraping/crunching (hard to describe) noise from the area of the bottom bracket, and I reported this to the LBS. It turns out that the front derailleur had not been adequately tightened onto the seat tube during assembly, and had rotated so that it was scraping on the big ring in certain gears. However, I was still able to shift with no problems, as the friction-shifter for the FD allowed me to naturally compensate for the mis-location without even being aware of it. Try that with a brifter.

You mean like this?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/tech/news/03-09/20814.jpg

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/tech/news/03-09/20818.jpg

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/tech/news/03-09/20809.jpg


Yeah I saw that during the tour, i guess a couple teams demoed it it. Shimano and Campy both have prototypes out being tested by protour teams. Figure a couple years before we see it, but i think it will be a pretty solid thing. Those stepper motor based servo systems are pretty solid.

I'm sure that is all single step stuff (push the button once motor moves once) but if you put a computer with a digital integrator between the controller and motor you could set it up to make adjustments at both ends automatically to make for ideal shifting, just build a table accounting for derailer position in three dimensions from the crank, could be pretty sweet.

You mean like this?

*** IMAGES REMOVED TO KEEP THIS SHORT AND SWEET ***

http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2006/news/03-09

Yeah pretty much, the FD batteries uglyness seems to be the sticking point, I wonder if they could simply put it somewhere else, for example a long narrow casing beside a bottle cage, this could in fact power both the front and the rear, add an ASIC and you could ieliminate one shifter, the shifter is connected to the ASIC, which knows the gear order, so the next gear in line could mean upshift the front one, and downshift the rear 2 positions for the next gear in line. A return signal to the shifter would confirm that the shift was completed to update the display, which could show up to 30 possible gears. The ASIC could be programmed to eliminate cross chain gears (not recommended to use anyway), and duplicates. A port on the control unit (battery case), could supply gear information to the bike computer, which would make it possible to compute cadence without a separate detector.

Wow, great input, everyone!

My plan is to sell the 7.3 FX as soon as I get it back. I'm going to strip the Brooks saddle, my lights, and some other things off it before I sell, but it's off to the "for sale" lot. I'd love to keep it, but I just know I'll never be able to trust the thing again, as much as I enjoyed it. Don't get me wrong the FX series are simply awesome bikes, fast fast fast and fun, but how I can trust something that has caused me this much grief?

So the plan is to ride the wheels off the Hardrock, and save up for a LHT. Hopefully won't be too long :). I figure that will be my last bike for a long, long time.

And the barends do look interesting, as I futz with constant deraileur adjustments currently.

Bdinger - sorry to hear about the bike.
Don't take this as an insult or a troll, but the first thing that came to mind when I read this was that not so long ago you were recommending this bike regularly. I am sure I have been guilty of the same thing, being enamored with a new purchase and singing it's praises before going through what could be considered a reasonable "testing" period.
I know I recommended a Dew Deluxe as a good buy only to have the rear rim on mine crack the following week, it had about 1500 miles on it at the time. I am not sure what a reasonable test period is but it seems to me that on my bikes serious problems don’t tend to happen until they are past the 1000 mile mark. Perhaps I should only be recommending a 1996 Marin Muirwoods as mine now has over 25,000 miles on it so I guess it is tested.

Yeah I saw that during the tour, i guess a couple teams demoed it it. Shimano and Campy both have prototypes out being tested by protour teams. Figure a couple years before we see it, but i think it will be a pretty solid thing. Those stepper motor based servo systems are pretty solid.

I'm sure that is all single step stuff (push the button once motor moves once) but if you put a computer with a digital integrator between the controller and motor you could set it up to make adjustments at both ends automatically to make for ideal shifting, just build a table accounting for derailer position in three dimensions from the crank, could be pretty sweet.

Man! We're talking about bicycles, here! Not the Space Shuttle! There's a lot to be said about simplicity.

If derailleur-shifter adjustments are such a pain, why not go with a geared hub? Until I bought my LHT and the WONDERFUL bar-end shifters I was seriously considering getting a frame and fork, and building a road bike with a 7 or 8 speed shimano geared hub with a double or triple chainring and front derailleur.

What I had in mind was something like the Surly Singleator combined with a geared hub and a double or triple chainring - whatever device used, it would have to be spring-loaded to take up the chain slack produced when shifting to a smaller chainring. I don't know if the Singleator does that. This setup would give you the ability to have two or three "ranges" combined with the trouble-free shifting of the geared hub.

But then I got my LHT with the bar-end shifters, and all shifting anxiety went away!

Yeah pretty much, the FD batteries uglyness seems to be the sticking point, I wonder if they could simply put it somewhere else, for example a long narrow casing beside a bottle cage, this could in fact power both the front and the rear, add an ASIC and you could ieliminate one shifter, the shifter is connected to the ASIC, which knows the gear order, so the next gear in line could mean upshift the front one, and downshift the rear 2 positions for the next gear in line. A return signal to the shifter would confirm that the shift was completed to update the display, which could show up to 30 possible gears. The ASIC could be programmed to eliminate cross chain gears (not recommended to use anyway), and duplicates. A port on the control unit (battery case), could supply gear information to the bike computer, which would make it possible to compute cadence without a separate detector.

I expect they would likely do a downtube mount like what they did with computer mount for the "coasting" line.

The problem with single sequence shifting is that it makes making very large jumps quickly difficult. ie. I climb in the middle ring, and on a number of the hill i climb the downhill isn't as steep as the up so I can simply shift the big ring straight up and have very ideal gearing. So a pure sequential gearing system might be problematic.

Man! We're talking about bicycles, here! Not the Space Shuttle! There's a lot to be said about simplicity.


Trust me... nasa guys would make it much more complicated... you'd need a checklist to change gears...

I don't mind the adjustment, really I don't, but you know... if you can make it the same weight give or take, i'd pay 100-200 bucks to never have to adjust or replace shifter cables, and have perfectly precise shifts every time. Surely some will argue it can't be that precise... but they've been building high precision micro stepper servos for a long time. and they use them on things like the space shuttle where death and destruction are a real risk.

I have to say, that this is one of the very, very, very rare times that I've ever heard of a Trek aluminum frame cracking without doing something like hitting a car, or hitting a stationary object while going over 30 mph.

Hell, I hit a deer at 32 mph on my old Trek Aluminum this past May, and the frame is still solid as a rock. The heavy steel front forks, front rim, handlebars, headset, and saddle were all crumpled and a total loss, but the frame came out of it just fine. I put a new front-end on it, and ride it every day. That means...let me do the math...I've put about 1800+ miles on the new front end so far. I check over my bike all the time too, and there are no warps, cracks, or anything like that.

I say give the new bike a chance. Especially if they send you a new frame from the factory. I'm sure that they will really check a replacement out before they send it.

I expect they would likely do a downtube mount like what they did with computer mount for the "coasting" line.

The problem with single sequence shifting is that it makes making very large jumps quickly difficult. ie. I climb in the middle ring, and on a number of the hill i climb the downhill isn't as steep as the up so I can simply shift the big ring straight up and have very ideal gearing. So a pure sequential gearing system might be problematic.

Which is why it should probably be user selectable, so you have a front shifter, but can turn it off, via a switch in the controller,.

Which is why it should probably be user selectable, so you have a front shifter, but can turn it off, via a switch in the controller,.

Makes sense... though your gonna make the controls real complicated real fast... good idea though. Would definitely dumb down shifting for those that don't get it. Not sure if that's a good thing though.

Man! We're talking about bicycles, here! Not the Space Shuttle! There's a lot to be said about simplicity.

If derailleur-shifter adjustments are such a pain, why not go with a geared hub? Until I bought my LHT and the WONDERFUL bar-end shifters I was seriously considering getting a frame and fork, and building a road bike with a 7 or 8 speed shimano geared hub with a double or triple chainring and front derailleur.

What I had in mind was something like the Surly Singleator combined with a geared hub and a double or triple chainring - whatever device used, it would have to be spring-loaded to take up the chain slack produced when shifting to a smaller chainring. I don't know if the Singleator does that. This setup would give you the ability to have two or three "ranges" combined with the trouble-free shifting of the geared hub.

But then I got my LHT with the bar-end shifters, and all shifting anxiety went away!

I'm not so sure the existing system is simple, it's just been around long enough that people think it's simple. For example a geared hub is not simple, look at an exploded diagram for one, it's a very complex piece of machinery, it just looks simple from the outside. An electronic shifting mechanism replaces a fairly inaccurate mechanical linkage (cable) with a highly precise stepper motor, the only real issue is power, and that could be obtained using a battery, providing they can use little enough power to make the battery last long enough. If your battery lasts say a year, you could just swap the batteries in the off season. Otherwise you need to simply carry spares, or have a battery detector built into the unit.

Bdinger - sorry to hear about the bike.
Don't take this as an insult or a troll, but the first thing that came to mind when I read this was that not so long ago you were recommending this bike regularly. I am sure I have been guilty of the same thing, being enamored with a new purchase and singing it's praises before going through what could be considered a reasonable "testing" period.
I know I recommended a Dew Deluxe as a good buy only to have the rear rim on mine crack the following week, it had about 1500 miles on it at the time. I am not sure what a reasonable test period is but it seems to me that on my bikes serious problems don’t tend to happen until they are past the 1000 mile mark. Perhaps I should only be recommending a 1996 Marin Muirwoods as mine now has over 25,000 miles on it so I guess it is tested.

Believe me, I understand completely. From now on my mouth is shut. I'll recommend it as a fast, fun, comfortable ride with the caveat that I've gone through three wheels and a frame. That is, until I sell it. I'm definitely done with it, it was a great bike, but I just don't trust it. My Hardrock Sport? I trust it. A year and a thousand HARD miles have earned trust. I've never (*knock on wood*) actually broke anything on that bike, and I've tried. BELIEVE me, I've tried.

Moral of the story? I have no idea. But you bring up a good point, I'm keeping my mouth shut from now on until at least mile 2,000, or considerable abuse to merit the thought that it will last to mile 2,000+.

I'm not so sure the existing system is simple, it's just been around long enough that people think it's simple. For example a geared hub is not simple, look at an exploded diagram for one, it's a very complex piece of machinery, it just looks simple from the outside. An electronic shifting mechanism replaces a fairly inaccurate mechanical linkage (cable) with a highly precise stepper motor, the only real issue is power, and that could be obtained using a battery, providing they can use little enough power to make the battery last long enough. If your battery lasts say a year, you could just swap the batteries in the off season. Otherwise you need to simply carry spares, or have a battery detector built into the unit.

Said something like 12 hours of battery life in the blurb I saw during TDF. Get two good sets of rechargeable batteries, keep on in the seat bag. For non racing use they could easily adapt the dyno-hub in the coasting system to run the system (racers wouldn't want the extra weight or the extra resistance regardless of how small), the advantage of that is you could set it up to easily mount a dyno powered light. Great for marketing (get the matching lights only $2xx), and to be honest I think it'd further improve safety if you had a lot of people getting bikes that came stock with a good set of hub-powered head and taillight.

Said something like 12 hours of battery life in the blurb I saw during TDF. Get two good sets of rechargeable batteries, keep on in the seat bag. For non racing use they could easily adapt the dyno-hub in the coasting system to run the system (racers wouldn't want the extra weight or the extra resistance regardless of how small), the advantage of that is you could set it up to easily mount a dyno powered light. Great for marketing (get the matching lights only $2xx), and to be honest I think it'd further improve safety if you had a lot of people getting bikes that came stock with a good set of hub-powered head and taillight.

Seems reasonable, the issue for racers is that batteries can be heavy as well, so if your hub generator is 300g and means the battery only needs to be 100g versus needing a 500g battery without the generator.

What I would like to see is this, you have a tube mounted battery.controller unit, this is connected to the hub generator, to provide power it also contains a pulse line to get the count of wheel revolutions, from the generator. One aspect of duties is to power the shifters, it also has connections for up to 4 lights, two have amber coloured lenses and flash one faces forward and one rearward, then you have a fork mounted white front light, and a rear mounted steady red light. Now here is where it gets interesting, you have a bar mounted "head" unit, this displays speed, distance, trip distance, gear, range, cadence, time and trip time. There are 3 switches, one to reset the trip odometer, one to turn on the amber flashers and one to turn on the head/tail lights. Turning on the head/tail lights also turns on the flashers, lights could also have an auto mode, where a light detector will turn the lights on/off when the light level reaches a certain level.

The controller contains a memory module, like a camera memory card, some like the SD cards are quite small, this card contains a log of all the trips, and programming information, it can be plugged into a card reader and accessed by computer, to program it, with wheel size, gear teeth etc.

A couple of ASICs could supply all the computer needs for such a system.

I know it wasn't a roadie, but...your experience is an example of why I thought the beefier frame of a cross bike would make sense for a big guy. Back in the 80 (last time i cycled with any regularity) I actually cracked an alloy frame and bent a steel on right behind the BB, and used to break cranks all the time (I have lots of torque). Don't get me started on wheels...

When I got back into biking i got a rockhopper comp. Nice bike -- ended up needing a new rear wheel after 1500 miles (velocity aerohead). Got the spped bug again and started the work commute (40 miles return) a couple days a week and wanted to reward myself. Ended up with a JTS. Not saying it will work out, but I've been hammering on it for 10 months and have put about 2,000 miles in with both roadie wheels and some more cross-specific stuff in the winter.

So, what's the plan for the wheels? That LHT would look really nice with black Deep-Vs with conti 28 on them...just keep in mind that the Deep-Vs are narrow, and most people wouldn't go much bigger than 30s on them.

Out in PA I can think of 5-6 instances where Trek and Gary Fisher frames (sub $1000 aluminum) failed under larger riders at the bottom bracket over the last 4 years or so. I was actually in the shop last spring when a 300 lb. guy came in with a Gary Fisher; the chainstays had separated from the bottom bracket shell! It was the ugliest frame failure I had ever seen. I have to think that this is not coincidence.

If you're going to buy aluminum from one of the big companies, I'd stick with Specialized. I've tried my best to kill my old M2 mountain frame over the last 10 years so that I can justify an upgrade. It rides like it's brand new.

I think AL was a good material for bike manufacturers, it's cheap, fairly easy to work with and light weight, but I am not convinced it's a good material for bike riders, it's harsh riding, and does fail at welded joins, unless the welds are perfect and the heat treating (to add strength) is done perfectly, after the welding is complete. No matter what, the weakest point in any metal is the welded joint, and since Aluminum suffers from stress fracturing, it's most likely to fracture at a weld.

Now most sub $1000 frames come from China, and lately we have been seeing some big quality issues with Chinese manufacturing (just ask the folks at Mattel ), so maybe it's poor quality welds, or poor quality control at the Chinese contractor that welds the frames. This may not even be Treks fault, because, as typical in Asia you hire a company, they sub-contract out and you have no control over who they sub-contract out to.

I think AL was a good material for bike manufacturers, it's cheap, fairly easy to work with and light weight, but I am not convinced it's a good material for bike riders, it's harsh riding, and does fail at welded joins, unless the welds are perfect and the heat treating (to add strength) is done perfectly, after the welding is complete. No matter what, the weakest point in any metal is the welded joint, and since Aluminum suffers from stress fracturing, it's most likely to fracture at a weld.

Now most sub $1000 frames come from China, and lately we have been seeing some big quality issues with Chinese manufacturing (just ask the folks at Mattel ), so maybe it's poor quality welds, or poor quality control at the Chinese contractor that welds the frames. This may not even be Treks fault, because, as typical in Asia you hire a company, they sub-contract out and you have no control over who they sub-contract out to.

I agree. Don't forget how effective the weight weenie marketing was in the mid to late 90s.

Seems reasonable, the issue for racers is that batteries can be heavy as well, so if your hub generator is 300g and means the battery only needs to be 100g versus needing a 500g battery without the generator.

Hug generator would be out for the racer mostly because of the drag that it induces. It's not that much but it would definitely be more than even a few hundred grams of extra battery weight. I rode a bike with a hub generator not long ago and while it wasn't much you could definitely feel it when you turned it on, definitely more than adding a hundred grams or so.



What I would like to see is this, you have a tube mounted battery.controller unit, this is connected to the hub generator, to provide power it also contains a pulse line to get the count of wheel revolutions, from the generator. One aspect of duties is to power the shifters, it also has connections for up to 4 lights, two have amber coloured lenses and flash one faces forward and one rearward, then you have a fork mounted white front light, and a rear mounted steady red light. Now here is where it gets interesting, you have a bar mounted "head" unit, this displays speed, distance, trip distance, gear, range, cadence, time and trip time. There are 3 switches, one to reset the trip odometer, one to turn on the amber flashers and one to turn on the head/tail lights. Turning on the head/tail lights also turns on the flashers, lights could also have an auto mode, where a light detector will turn the lights on/off when the light level reaches a certain level.

The controller contains a memory module, like a camera memory card, some like the SD cards are quite small, this card contains a log of all the trips, and programming information, it can be plugged into a card reader and accessed by computer, to program it, with wheel size, gear teeth etc.

A couple of ASICs could supply all the computer needs for such a system.

That would be very cool, if they could get the cost and reliability appropriate. But therein lies the rub :eek: If your going to go this far you might as well put sensors on the brakes and make the tailight two stage :D