My wife and I ride twice a week in a group ride. The ride is about 20 miles, go for 10, rest, turn around and go back. By the time we get to the rest stop I am about ready to rest a few minutes so it is a nice break. After the break I feel good and get going again. About half way back I think I am running out of energy. Going up the hills in very small gears feels like I am in the biggest gear known to man. Funny though sometimes when I am a mile or two from the end I get a little boost of energy and can pick up the pace.

My question is what is happening? Am I running out of glycerine or whatever the muscles use for energy, carbs, dehydrating, are the muscles not getting enough oxygen?

I have been riding for about 4-5 months and have over 500 miles on my bike so far. I have ridden 50 mile rides so I am not sure it is endurance related. The reason this bothers me is that it seems to be getting worse as my average speeds are going down lately instead of up.

Should I eat better? Should we ride more miles a week? Intervals?

Any and all suggestions are welcome as I really want to push past this.

Allan

What do you eat?

How often do you eat during your ride?

How much water are you consuming during your ride?

What do you eat?

Depends on the day. This last ride I had a Slimfast for breakfast, another for lunch, two snack bars right before the ride (30-45 min) and half a carb jel pack about 1/4 of the way back. Time before that I had a big mexican lunch at noon and a snack bar before the ride (5:45pm).

How often do you eat during your ride?

Today was the first time I took anything to "eat" on the ride. I didnt really think it would help for such a short ride, and since no one else in the group does I didnt either.

How much water are you consuming during your ride?

Roughly one large polar bottle of Cytomax each direction. Sometimes a little less, sometimes a little more (after I get back). Then I drink about a small bottle of water after getting home.

Tried the same route today with a few miles extra. Wasnt as bad coming back this time as normal. There were three differences I saw.

1) Rode early in the morning where the temp barely reached 90F by the time we had finished. This is compared to the last afternoon ride we made where the temp on the road was 107F.

2) Ate a better meal an hour before riding, two bowls of cereal with 1/2 a banana on each.

3) Of course since it is saturday morning I didnt spend 9 hours working before I rode.

I would venture to guess that these three contributed to it feeling easier but unfortunately there is nothing I can do about the 1st and 3rd thing if I want to ride in the group. I am not sure how much of an impact the 2nd had on the ride. Still dont understand why my performance on the afternoon rides is declining or what I can do about it.

No ideas or comments Koffee?

Allan

Sorry- for some reason, I didn't see you'd answered any of my questions.

I think if you're bonking, it may be that you're not eating enough before the ride. I'm confused, though. Are these evening rides where you're bonking or daytime rides?

I'll wait to hear from you before I do a final comment kind of post.

Koffee

This morning was a morning ride, done by 10:40am. The group rides are in the evenings, starting at 5:30pm on mondays and 5:45pm on thursdays.

I cant really eat dinner before the rides, I have to rush from work to home to the start to make it on time. But I was curious to know if it might have something to do with the heat, or maybe I am just not riding enough. I just dont really know. I am doing the Slim Fast thing to try to lose wieght too, you know, one for breakfast, one for lunch (usually) and a good dinner. Lost 28 pounds since I started the whole cycling/dieting thing. (GO ME!)

Be forwarned, I will follow your advise and let you know what happens quickly, good or bad :-)

Allan

Originally posted by Flea77
This morning was a morning ride, done by 10:40am. The group rides are in the evenings, starting at 5:30pm on mondays and 5:45pm on thursdays.

As a commuter, I know better than most that an intense day of work will tire you out pretty effectively. Generally, my rides home from work are not the ones where I attempt PBs.

Originally posted by Flea77
But I was curious to know if it might have something to do with the heat, or maybe I am just not riding enough. I just dont really know.

Heat can be a factor. Heat is a factor around here for nine months of the year. The key is to drink lots of water before, after and during the ride. I generally aim at drinking 5-10 litres of water throughout each day as a matter of general health. Starting a ride well-hydrated is the best way to avoid becoming dehydrated.

Originally posted by Flea77
I am doing the Slim Fast thing to try to lose wieght too, you know, one for breakfast, one for lunch (usually) and a good dinner. Lost 28 pounds since I started the whole cycling/dieting thing. (GO ME!)

This is not something I would expect to help your riding. I have never attempted to lose weight in my life, however, if I did I would be taking my sweet time about it. Crash diets might help you lose weight, but they'll also help you lose your overall health, which is something I would regard as being more important.

This is not something I would expect to help your riding. I have never attempted to lose weight in my life, however, if I did I would be taking my sweet time about it. Crash diets might help you lose weight, but they'll also help you lose your overall health, which is something I would regard as being more important.

Losing 28 pounds wont help my riding?!?!?!? Are you serious?

I took my time, 28 pounds is in 5 months, that is just slightly more than the 1 pound a week recommended by almost every cycling and fitness book I have (at least 6 of them) and is well below the 2 pounds a week warning they give. I would hardly call less than 2 pounds a week a "crash diet".

Allan

Originally posted by Flea77
I am doing the Slim Fast thing to try to lose wieght too, you know, one for breakfast, one for lunch (usually) and a good dinner. Lost 28 pounds since I started the whole cycling/dieting thing. (GO ME!)


This may be the problem.

I'm in a similar situation. I used to race Cat.4 and was a fairly good climber at about 5'10", 145-150lbs. 10 years of not racing, working long hours and getting married has pushed my weight to a level I won't admit to here.

So this year I'm doing something kinda brutal... losing the weight (at an average of 0.21 lbs/day - yes, I have graphs and statistics for this :p ) and training so I can race (at least hang in the pack) next year.

My meals go like this:

Breakfast: coffee and muffin
AM break: Clif Bar and coffee
Lunch: whatever I want within reason
Dinner: soup or some rice and shrimp and lots of water

Look at that and it's not hard to see that it doesn't take much for me to run out of energy on a ride if I'm doing hills or riding tempo. As insurance I usually carry a Clif Shot (fast energy) and a Clif Bar on every ride over 45 min in length. If I feel the energy fading (maybe happens on 1 of 4 rides) I'll eat the bar... if it's fading extra fast I'll "drink" the Clif Shot and eat the bar about 30 minutes later.

Chris Carmichael's new book has a decent explanation of how you use energy and food. It's worth a read if you can grab it at the library. There's not enough in the book that I'd recommend you buy it... I only did 'cause Amazon had a sale and free shipping :D

All right-

I think it's a combination of bonking and heat that's getting you wiped out. If it's really that hot in the evenings when you're starting your ride, I could see how you'd feel a bit knackered after the halfway point.

Hydration is important- be sure to drink throughout the day- a good indication that you're hydrated is that your pee will be clear. Initially, when you do start drinking a lot of water, you will be going to the bathroom a whole lot, but as time passes and you become more hydrated, that will end. Also be sure that you take plenty of water with you on your rides and continue to hydrate during your ride. With all the sweating you'll be doing during your ride, you'll be losing a lot of water in that heat through sweat.

Also, I would suggest upping your calorie count. I think the slim fast diet is a bit on the calorically challenged side for people who do more than the usual amount of exercise. You need to get enough energy in your system to do rides after a day of work, and when your calorie reserves are already pretty low, you expect your body to go longer without any additional fuel on a long ride? It's not gonna happen, as you have experienced already. Your body is like a car- when your car runs out of gas, it will stop. You are running out of gas, and there has to be a way for you to prevent that from happening. Consider getting some powerbars or energy bars with slower releasing carbohydrates- if you don't have time to eat, eat one about half an hour before you take off on your ride, then carry gatorade you can sip along the way for the quickie carbs you'll need to get through the first part of the ride. At your halfway point, have another energy bar, and continue drinking the gatorade during the ride back. Don't give your body the opportunity to go into starvation mode while you're riding simply because you're on the slimfast diet.

What I think may be the downfall of the slimfast diet is that eventually, when you do go back to solid foods, you will have more of a tendency to put some weight back on. It's unfortunate, but the slimfast diet seems designed to keep you on slimfast for the rest of your life- the amount of calories and nutrients in the drinks just doesn't equate to solid foods, so the weight gain comes back, or even to a small degree. It would have been better for you to just restrict your calories, bump up your cardio, and add in weights- you could have eaten more because of the increase in exercise, you wouldn't have had to restrict your calories as much, and you would be more likely to keep the weight off- as long as you were thinking that the changes you made were permenant lifestyle choices. Diets do not work often, and they do not work well because they are temporary measures done by folks who want to drop weight, whereas changing your eating habits and increasing your exercise is a healthy lifestyle change, which can be maintained indefinitely. Not only that, you won't ever bonk, as you'll have more food going into your body, which means you'll get more exercise in, which means you end up losing more weight.

Try what I suggested with the powerbars and gatorade for a couple of weeks and then report back the results.

Koffee

Originally posted by Flea77
Losing 28 pounds wont help my riding?!?!?!? Are you serious?


I didn't say losing weight wouldn't help, I just said fad diets wouldn't help.

I didn't say losing weight wouldn't help, I just said fad diets wouldn't help.

So you consider slim fast (around for 25 years) and exercise a fad? What isnt a fad? I do the slim fast plan becasue it has helped people I know and it was easy to start with my fast paced life. Regardless of it being a fad or not, I feel better, I can ride pretty well and I have lost 28 pounds. Those were all things I wanted, slim fast was one small part of getting there.

Actually you mentioned "crash diets" not "fad diets" and as I stated previously 28 pounds in 20 weeks is far far far from crash. Check out the latest Bicycling mag for a crash diet, something like 10 pounds in a week. THAT is a crash diet.

Sorry if I sound antagonistic but I guess I am. I get irritated at people who dispariage someone's actions without providing any real suggestions as to what to do instead and why.

Allan

Originally posted by Flea77
Sorry if I sound antagonistic but I guess I am. I get irritated at people who dispariage someone's actions without providing any real suggestions as to what to do instead and why.

Evidently you'd prefer to stick with the diet rather than solve the question that you posted here. You don't just need to read my post, two others above it have mentioned that the slim fast thing may very well be a problem. However, you don't seem to want to read that, which makes me wonder why someone would bother asking a question if they don't intend to do anything about the issue to begin with.

Thank you for clearing that up. In future I won't bother answering anymore of your questions.

Easy, folks. Flea's biggest problem is that he has conflicting goals right now and it is really tough.

Flea, congrats on the weight loss. And Slimfast can work. But I think that the answers are right. I think you are bonking too. That may just be a fact of life until you reach your weight goals. Both the exercise and the weight loss are important. I know from personal experience that it is tough to sustain aerobic activity for more than an hour and a half if you are running just a little lean on the fuel side. I have walked the last mile home several times on 20 milers where I didn't take any food.

Let me make a suggestion. Try just a little peanut butter or a few peanuts either before or during your ride. I know that your are trying to avoid the fat, but just a little fat and protien in your stomach may slow down the depletion of your carbs.

Stay strong.

Hey Flea, How biga boy are you anywho?

Just kidding! Congrats on the weight loss!!! I'm a big boy and I guess I always will be to some extent.

According to the Slimfast label the coco shake has 220 cals and 42 of that is carbs. No offence, but if I only had 440 cals in a day and tried to ride 20 miles at anything over about 10 mph that evening I would fall flat on my face! Your body can't break down your own fat fast enough to provide the energy you will be needing! I would suggest you give Koffee's suggestions a try. I think you should also be aware that your glycogen levels will stay low as long as you are keeping your calorie intake very low. Unfortunatly most "diets", unless they are a life style change, are only a short term fix. That being said, let me share my story.

I lost 60 lbs year before last doing Atkins diet. I started exercise on a cross trainer 30 mins at a time. Then I started biking and found as I increased my time and speed I would crash. I then decided to eat sensable and avoid sugar and refined starch. I have added in more carbs have gained some weight back but I can ride further and faster than I could just last spring. As you loose more fat you will the carbs to support your rides.

Am I running out of glycerine or whatever the muscles use for energy,

Simple answer? YES;)

I very much appreciate all your replies and will definately give them a try over the next week or so and report the results so maybe it can help others (if it works, heh).

One thing I did want to clear up or explain a little better. My choice for the slim fast plan was primarily one of convience. My original plan was to use it to help drop at least most of the weight off before switching to a more reasonable plan, or lifestyle change as you call it. Allow me to show an example:

Until 75% of the weight I want is gone-
Breakfast - Slimfast
Lunch - Slimfast
Snack - Low fat snack bar
Dinner - Reasonable reduced fat meal
Late night snack - Occasionally another low fat snack bar
Exercise - Weights and riding (40-80 miles/week)

From 75%-100% of weight dropped-
Breakfast - Slimfast
Lunch - Low fat sanwiches such as subway or quiznos
Snack - Low fat snack bar
Dinner - Reasonable reduced fat meal
Late night snack - Occasionally another low fat snack bar
Exercise - Weights and riding (80-120 miles/week)

Maintain at 100% weight loss-
Breakfast - None (I prefer this, hate to eat in the mornings)
Lunch - Low fat sanwiches such as subway or quiznos
Snack - Low fat snack bar
Dinner - Reasonable reduced fat meal
Late night snack - Occasionally another low fat snack bar
Exercise - Maybe occasional weights, 120+ miles a week riding

If you see any problems with this please let me know. From what you are all saying it may be time to move to the next phase even though I havent lost the weight I wanted to, and that is OK, I just made all this up anyway, heh. But so far it has been working. I guess I just pushed past the mileage I can do on the calories I take in.

Allan

I guess I just pushed past the mileage I can do on the calories I take in.

I think this is exactly what you are experiencing! I ran into the same thing when I started to push myself hard!;)

i have another theory for you. if you are riding 10 miles then resting. then another 10....there is little chance that it is bonking with the kind of milage you have done recently.

after your rest you feel refreshed for a short while then you become unglued then recover a bit....

if this is correct then i believe that you are building up lactic acid in your legs. after the initial burst of energy one gets after a rest, your acid build up makes spinning tougher. then your fitness allows for a recovery before the end of your ride.

what are you doing at your rest stop? sitting? walking around? stretching? spend more time looking at how you are resting at your stop. instead of talking and b.s.ing spend the time seriously drinking, stretching your quads, etc. to get ready form the ride home.

i always tighten up after waiting at a long light or resting a bit without the proper stretch.

I dont know much about the nutrtion stuff, but what i've personally been doing is eating a sandwhich (turkey) or so before rides and i've recently discovered CEREAL! the good old sweet kinds of cereals... low in fat and HIGH in carbs! one cup of that stuff has like 24 carbs in it.. i usualy eat 4 or 5 cups worth before a ride.. thats a good 125 in carbs! Not bad eh! a few time's i've only had a costco shake before a ride.. and i usually go 30 miles on generally straight ground.. on the rides home, my stomach feels like it could eat a horse.. I never really feel out of energy but my legs get tired espically into a headwind.. I recently picked up some of these GEL energy things.. never tried them before might take one on the way home from the 30.. I find if i STOP for too long my legs get REALY hot and start to feel really stiff. so i need to keep going.. Heck i'm only 24 3/4ths!... I'm trying to loose weight too.. i'm at 192 now, down from 195/197 ish.. I've been doing the subway thing.. ITs low in fat and just about everything else.. I like sandwhiches so it works.. My approach is this, I'm not worrying about the calories too much and more about the grams of FAT.. I think the FAT is what kills you..


I think cereal is a GREAT start before a bike ride.. lots of carbs!

By the way, can someone set me straight, is it CARBS first the body burns? Then sugars? then fats? whats the order here i'm lost :)

OK Flea, I think I see the problem.

Generally, cyclists use carbohydrate for fuel. You eat carbohydrate and your body converts it to glycogen and uses it when it needs it. If you go out and ride and burn up glycogen, you need to eat carbohydrate to replace it. You will burn up fat riding and figuring out just how much carbohydrate to eat to replenish your glycogen is tricky.

Generally, riding a mile burns between 30-50 cal. So a 20 mile ride will do maybe 1000 calories. Figure that you need to consume about 500 calories of carbo (just guessing you are burning 50% fat and 50% carbo on your ride) to replace the glycogen you burned up. If you ride at a low level of effort, you will burn more fat and less carbo and if you ride at a high level of effort, you will burn almost nothing but carbo. And if you deplete your glycogen (called the BONK in the USA), you will burn almost 100% fat. I think you are bonking. In some ways, bonking is a GOOD thing because now your body HAS to burn fat because it does not have any glycogen. But riding whilst bonked is not much fun as you seem to have noticed. From your diet, I don't think you are really consuming much in the way of carbos.

Another thing you could do is eat some source of carbo say about 30 minutes or an hour before a ride. I would suggest an orange or a banana - nice, nutritious, reasonably low cal and cheap.

Now I once did an extreme form of weight loss largely by luck. I was out west on a 2 week tour and riding over 70 miles per day and climbing over 4000' per day. What I did was enough carbohydrates to replenish my glycogen and that was about as much as I could stuff in per day. But I avoided fatty foods and really high energy foods. I lost 10 lbsin 2 weeks and I think it was virtually all fat and that was all burnt up climbing passes.

The thing is if you are going to use an engine, you need to give it a little fuel. The trick is to not give it too much (get fat) or too little (bonk). Good luck.