Advocacy & Safety - I also drive

I love riding my bike, but I also own and drive a car. I am concerned about some of the attitiudes on this forum - the US versus THEM stuff. I'm one of US and THEM. I am not against bikes or cars, I am for bikes and cars.

I for one am not against drivers or driving. I actually like driving and thus hold those engaging in that practice to a high standard which is why I'm so annoyed by a great number of drivers out there. And part of driving is recognising when it's appropriate and not appropriate to drive... IOW, responsible use of the automobile. The automobile is a tool... like a hammer and unfortunately many people have the hammer syndrom where everything looks like a nail which leads to today's "car-culture". Another part of driving is recognising that the automobile is not the only vehicle on the road.

When I bought my bike, no one demanded I turn over the keys to my automobiles nor did the Jeep dealership require that I surrender my bikes before selling me my ZJ. Automobiles and bikes can peacefully coexist. Notice that I said "can". I think we (as a society as a whole) still have a ways to go to make that a reality but I don't see any inherent reason why it cannot be so. And yes, there's no point in turning this into an "us vs. them" situation. Remember the saying, "when you divide people into 'us' and 'them', you automatically become one of 'them'."

Originally posted by steveK
I am concerned about some of the attitiudes on this forum - the US versus THEM stuff.I'm concerned about it too - the idea that to be a cyclist you must hate anyone who drives a car. This attitude of hate is a cancer on the cycling community, and the preachers of hate a disgrace.

I'm a motorist too, although I put many more miles on my bicycles than I do on my car.

I agree. I like cars too, but am realistic enough to know they are bad for the environment and they have a limited future so I restrict my driving if I can.

I don't hate drivers, I hate inconsiderate drivers who have no regard for other road users.

If you don't fall into that category you're ok with me. :)

Originally posted by chewa
I agree. I like cars too, but am realistic enough to know they are bad for the environment and they have a limited future so I restrict my driving if I can.

I don't hate drivers, I hate inconsiderate drivers who have no regard for other road users.

If you don't fall into that category you're ok with me. :)

I don't like cars, but am realistic enough to know that some form of powered vehicle is necessary, I'd just like to see a reduction in their use because of their environmental impacts.

I choose not to drive and adapt my lifestyle accordingly, but I don't hate drivers. I'd like to see people place less reliance on motor vehicles but don't loath those who drive when other options are available. Again it's inconsiderate drivers who have no regard for other road users that get to me.

I try not to get too sanctimonious ;)

Richard

Originally posted by Richard D
I don't like cars, but am realistic enough to know that some form of powered vehicle is necessary, I'd just like to see a reduction in their use because of their environmental impacts.

I choose not to drive and adapt my lifestyle accordingly, but I don't hate drivers. I'd like to see people place less reliance on motor vehicles but don't loath those who drive when other options are available. Again it's inconsiderate drivers who have no regard for other road users that get to me.

I couldn't have said it better myself. For some reason, choosing not to own a car means that one seems to be considered anti-car. Not true. I hardly ever watch TV either, but I don't recall calling for it to be banned. I think the whole problem here is paranoia (on both sides).

I don't hate cars (or drivers). However; I think we would be alot better off with fewer cars and less driving, at least inside cities.

I think drivers of cars should be responsible for their actions. If you kill someone with your automobile, you should go to jail and be forbidden from driving for a long time.

I wish drivers thought as much about my safety on the road as their own.

I think that government policies that unfairly subsidize and support automobiles deprive the public of a decent mass transit system and inter-city passenger rail systems.

Both roads (big interstate ones) and cars are ugly, expensive and polluting.


Dan

I love my car as much as my bike. They both offer me freedom. But I have trouble with society's acceptance of the huge number of deaths attributed to impaired or careless drivers. We don't strongly punish people that kill or maim other people anymore. We accept a certain auto-related death count as part of doing business. People know that their carlessness will not be punished in a way that significantly affects the rest of their lives.


Here is a fine example of how out of control it is getting in the car culture: http://homepage.mac.com/howheels/rubpics/woowoo.wmv

I don't mind cars at all when I am on my bike, they pose a great challange that can be thrilling. It is when I am driving that I really hate cars and other drivers. I imagine most other drivers would love to see less people driving as well, as many coworkers here have over 1 hour driving time 1 way to work (the average in Chicago is half an hour)

Originally posted by JoeTown244GL
People know that their carlessness will not be punished in a way that significantly affects the rest of their lives.

I truly am under the belief that the biggest problem is that deep-down the majority of people do not like driving. They think they do but they really don't. What they want is just the images and accessories that have been bred around the automobile. I would have to say that these people are the motorist equivalent of a phred (fred). While phreds on a bike are unlikely to cause much harm to themselves or others, the same sort of mentality when applied to automobiles seems to have rather detrimental effects to the safety factour of the roads. I believe that if there's any place that warrants a kind of elitist snobbery with regard to allowing individuals into their exclusive "club" based on skill, it should be the driving world. Raise that bar. Demand a higher standard. We require more skill and training for someone to operate a radio on the 4m band than we do someone to operate a 4 ton Suburban at 75MPH. The problem is that people still need to get around and unfortunately unless society perceives something as having an entry level that can cater to the lowest common denominator, they'll call it descrimination. We can tout alternative transportation all we want but if they're perceived as being counter-culture or "uncool" then they'll be summarily dismissed. I'm not sure what the answer is or if there's an approachable answer. I do know that any change will require a radical departure in the minds of a lot of people's thinking and extensive social re-engineering.

The automobile is a tool... like a hammer....
...like a gun.... And should require the same responsibilities for the operator.

I also drive. But as a driver who is also a cyclist (I've been legally driving for almost 30 years,) I feel especially qualified to condemn
the flagrant disregard of safety and traffic law by many drivers. It is quite unusual for me to see any driver who is adhering to the posted speed limit, and those who do are intimidated by tail-gaters.

It's normal for drivers to cruise through my neighborhood, a posted 25 mph. limit which includes a school zone (elementary school) and bus stops, as if the limit were 40 mph. Some go even faster.

The problem is a public acceptance that drivers own the road and can make their own rules. As long as enough people are getting away with it, that makes it ok.

Baloney.

I think most people drive, if i could survive with a bike alone i would give up the car, the hefty payment, and high NY insurance in a second flat.

I read today the Al Gore's speech, which he gave on 7AUG'03.

Read, please, carefully what the real well-informed thinker says about the over-reliance on the fossil fuel before posting the childish babble:

http://www.moveon.org/gore-speech.html

I would not post myself anything either. It is not possible to give better analysis than Al did.

Originally posted by Bobatin
...like a gun.... And should require the same responsibilities for the operator.

Exactly. I also made this comparison (as did Chris L) in another thread. I'm reminded of the Simpson's episode where Homer gets a gun and uses it to do everything like open up cans.

I really enjoy a sip of Laphraiog or a pint of good ale. They add a lot to life. However, I would not like to be an alcoholic -- someone who is dependant on booze.

I feel the same way about automobiles. They are useful and fun, but I don't want to become dependant on them. Fewer cars on the road would benefit many people, not least of all motorists.

I think the American "love affair with the car" ended in the late 1960s -- killed by congestion. The cars that people seem to want today are SUVs -- big rolling forts that always appear about to topple over (and frequently do). It is the antithesis of motoring. I suspect "the masses" view utilitarian driving as a mostly unpleasant chore for which no alternative exists.

Paul

I drive and I don't like it. I don't know of anyone who actually enjoys driving (unless you are kid and its new). However I do need a car as time does not permit walking or cycling in today's (mine) climate.

The "US" vs. "THEM" does not bother me at all because i think some of "them" have some pretty silly Utopian ideas that will never come to fruition in my lifetime, nor my grand children's. Plus, I think those extreme measures and attitudes have such a small voice that until I logged on here, I never knew they existed--- so I doubt anyone else is listening. And if you have to carry out terror attacks like the E.L.F. to get your point across maybe your idea is just plain crazy and stupid.

I think there is just as much chance of changing the world's view on auto as the US has in getting rid of handguns. It just ain't going to happen.

Regards,

ehenz

I don't own a car and haven't since April 1999. I don't hate drivers. I do dislike the circumstances that so many drivers keep the demand for good public transportation to a minimum. The fact that most people are so selfish that any increase in taxes is anathema, and all cuts in services must come from something that "I" don't personally use. For the good of society is an alien concept for most people in the US.

My current life is proof of concept that you can live in the US without a car. In fact I could do it in much more difficult areas of the country. Beaverton, OR is not too hard. My concerns are that cyclists don't lose the rights they have to travel the roads as a vehicle. In addition that people who disobey traffic laws and run cyclists off the road get punished. I want bicycle racks in supermarkets and I don't want them crowded out by shopping carts.

Cyclists don't hate drivers. Almost all of them are drivers. Cyclists hate the drivers that:

Honk at them as they pass
Throw items at cyclists
scream out their window at cyclists
Crowd cyclists, running them off the road or worse
Hit cyclists and get off with community service

If you feel afraid that cyclists hate you, ask yourself how do you behave when you are driving? Maybe you feel guilty.
-Duncan

I too use both my bike and my car to get around. Granted I cycle most of the time, but I drive enough to see the issue from both sides. What really perplexes me is why so many motorists become infuriated at the mere presence of a cyclist on the road with them. I realize the law gives equal rights to both drivers and cyclists, but I also have a keen awareness of the physics involved. In other words, I stay to the right except when it is absolutley necessary to take the lane and I will most allways yield even if I have the right of way if safety is a concern. I am as considerate as I can possibly be. That said, I have NEVER even seen a cyclist deliberately harass a driver, but drivers give me trouble nearly every day. I am not in any way advocating violence, but let's say I have no sympathy for the occasional motorist who gets pepper sprayed or punched in the face.

Originally posted by djwid
Cyclists hate the drivers that:

Honk at them as they pass
Throw items at cyclists
scream out their window at cyclists
Crowd cyclists, running them off the road or worse
Hit cyclists and get off with community service




throw and break glass bottles on the asphalt

Originally posted by Max

throw and break glass bottles on the asphalt


Although I have no doubt that drivers do that too, around here, it's often rowdy and inconsiderate pedestrians (usually teenage punks) that contribute to much of the broken glass on the roads.

Im drive and bike also. I hate drivers when i am on my bike, I admit, I also hate bikers when im in a car. I also hate cars when i'm in a car. EVRYONE LEAVE ME ALONE!!!

On a serious note though, you cant blame drivers for driving teh way they do, becouse everyone else does, and drivers can't blame bikers for getting in the way, becouse they are part of everyone. Just be careful.

Oh yeah, and Khuon, careful how you use the word punk ;)

Originally posted by urbanking
Oh yeah, and Khuon, careful how you use the word punk ;)

I never said that all teenagers were punks or even all punks were teenagers. :)

Khuon, I could agree with you more on the very first post that you put on this topic, that said it perfectly!!...I drive my Van and love riding bikes, and right now am looking to get more into commuting by bike to work and that kind of stuff, because I want to..But I also agree that it's bad to get the, "us" vs "them" attitude, that's not good....

I mean if I didn't have my van, I never would be able to load it up with the bikes and stuff that I do, and travel so easily to these bike rides that I find all over the states...I'm glad that I have both, but it's very very important to remember to use both in a responsible manner..

You put it wonderfully in your first post!!

Thanks,
Benjamin

Originally posted by khuon
Although I have no doubt that drivers do that too, around here, it's often rowdy and inconsiderate pedestrians (usually teenage punks) that contribute to much of the broken glass on the roads.

That's alright, you're allowed to hate them, too.

Just getting back on topic for a moment - what really bugs me is the way so many drivers seem to think they can behave a certain way behind the wheel of a car which would not be tolerated in any facet of life. Think about this. One of the common complaints thrown at cyclists is the old "holding up traffic" line. There are many who consider that slowing down a car for three seconds is a crime worse than murder.

Last night I was at the supermarket, in supposedly the "express" lane - and I got held up by someone who couldn't count to twelve. I reckon it cost me about 20 minutes. Now, if I'd started ranting and raving, hurling abuse or projectiles or becoming violent, you can bet there would have been a big spanky security guard on hand to throw me out pretty quickly. Yet people can behave like this in a car over much smaller delays and it's accepted as a normal part of life.

Can anyone tell me why?

Originally posted by Chris L
Last night I was at the supermarket, in supposedly the "express" lane - and I got held up by someone who couldn't count to twelve. I reckon it cost me about 20 minutes. Now, if I'd started ranting and raving, hurling abuse or projectiles or becoming violent, you can bet there would have been a big spanky security guard on hand to throw me out pretty quickly. Yet people can behave like this in a car over much smaller delays and it's accepted as a normal part of life.

Can anyone tell me why?
Power corrupts the weak.

As for why it's accepted, I propose that it's the same with addictions. Addicts love each other's company, to the degree that they are able to justify their addiction temporarily. Unfortunately, unchecked, their behavior can escalate into quite disturbing scenarios.

No one put it that way: "us" vs "them". This would be the oversimplification.

It is normal that one likes his car. It would be strange if after that mass car advertising campaign the person with the average IQ would not like the car.

Besides the motorized vehicles are clearly useful in construction and other industries.

The oil is also very valubale resource. Without oil there would be no chain lubricants after all :)

The question you should answer is not either you like your car or do not like the car.

The qestions to answer are:

Do you like pollution?

Do you like pollution related illnesses?

Do you like car violence? Car violence is integral part of the modern car. Modern cars kill on mass scale, and they will continue, no matter what.

Do you like congestion in your city?

Do you like the destruction of the ecosystem?

Do you like that there is no state program, which would encourage people to commute on sustainable vehicles?


Originally posted by ehenz

I think there is just as much chance of changing the world's view on auto as the US has in getting rid of handguns. It just ain't going to happen.


If you think that handguns in the USA is something original, then you are in wrong. This is the medieval vestige, the same as your imperial system of measurements.

There were times when in my parts people also were walking with swords and pistols on the belts. The same as there were times when they measured distances in feet, elbows, and arrow flights. But it was very long time ago.

So it may change in the USA too. More strange things happened.

Usually once a week (I ride 200-300km a week) I get a rude driver - Honking, shouting, etc. I probably get crowded every other day. However when I think about how many cars pass me each day, thats a pretty low percentage.

I have a problem with other cyclists. Atleast half of the cyclist I see are doing something wrong. Running red lights, not signally, weaving through taffic, ridding on curbs, or just plain unable to ride a straight line. I'm not counting the under 18 ones either.

I haven't had any accidents involving other vehicals, but I've had just as many close calls with cars as I've had with cyclists.

No wonder there are drivers that treat us poorly.

It makes me think we should have licenses if you want to take your bike out of a residential street.

As for cars the only thing I truly dislike is the smell/pollution. I can't image you could bike in a larger centre like Calgary. Although I've heard that some cycle couriers are wearing masks now.

Originally posted by salvaico

It makes me think we should have licenses if you want to take your bike out of a residential street.

THis issue's been covered before. To cut a long story short, I do something stupid on a bike - the only person I'm likely to kill is myself. That's just Darwinism. I do something stupid in a car - I almost certainly take someone with me. As far as I'm concerned, that is more than sufficient justification for different licencing systems.

The idea of a liscence for cycling seems tempting at times. Last week I saw a college student and his girlfriend who had converted their bikes to "fixed" gears by the simple expedient of removing the derailleurs. It seems for the students at the local art school fixies are all the rage-- I see quite a few of them now. But these clowns hadn't even bothered to re-tension their chains, and get this, the guy had REMOVED the brakes from his bike (keep in mind the drive was still a freewheel, not a real fixie). It was interesting watching him stop, and I imagine an Escalade will eventually take him out of the gene pool. (for the record, I informed him of these problems, and other than sneering at my ancient PX10 fixie--which still has the front brake, mind you-- he ignored me).

But all this future Jackson Pollock is likely to take is himself; he'll probably only dent the Escalade and take a few dollars out of the driver's deductible. He's not like the real Pollock, who managed to drive himself and a couple of passengers into a tree, killing a couple of people besides himself (note that Jackson was not, repeat, not driving a bike-- he was in a (you guessed it) car). If the driver of the Escalade turns into a few pedestrians, the laws of physics say he's gonna do a lot more damage than some idiot on a poorly maintained bike.

This is a responsibility few motorists are prepared to accept or even acknowledge. The car is far deadlier than a bike, and frankly, a liscence to drive a car should be a lot harder to get and keep than it currently is. Any politician attempting to limit access to liscences will not stay in office long, so they're ridiculously easy to get and keep. It's likely to remain that way.

For the record, I've been cycling 20 years, and had a handfull of close calls with other cyclists-- and many, many more with motorists. But then, I live in a markedly bicycle-unfriendly city, no matter what the students at the local art school may be riding.

I proposed bike licenses once. I think the main reason was that
if cyclists had licenses, they also had a right to the road.

But now, I realize that along with licensing comes regulation, and regulation is one reason I prefer the freedom of riding a bike.

Perhaps widespread education of cyclists and motorists, which includes establishing the right of cyclists (in people's minds) to use the roads ("use," meaning "share," not cowering in the gutter or sidewalk) is in order.

Originally posted by Pete Clark
I proposed bike licenses once. I think the main reason was that
if cyclists had licenses, they also had a right to the road.

We have this already. The trick is convincing everyone else on the road. I, for one, don't think licences would be sufficient to do that.

Originally posted by khuon
I never said that all teenagers were punks or even all punks were teenagers. :)

Khuon, I think he was saying some people think Punk<tm> is a fashion statement rather than a descritpion of jerky inconsiderate behavior.

You know, plaid pants, bad hair, metal in the face?

The original punk was almost entirely Anti-Corporate, new punks seem to buy their clothes at Hot Topic and buy their records from RIAA companies rather than labels like Alternative Tentacles.

anyway, that was completely off topic but I see all these new "punk rockers" at the mall, and very few of them seem to "get" what its supposed to be all about.

Then again back in the day I was in it for the parties and pretty girls mostly, so who am I to say, heh.

Jester

Originally posted by steveK
I love riding my bike, but I also own and drive a car. I am not against bikes or cars, I am for bikes and cars.

I think all you will find most bike advocates want is equal treatment. That's it, that's all.

What a lot of work to over come getting the short end of the stick (in one way or another).

Originally posted by Pete Clark
[B]I also drive. But as a driver who is also a cyclist (I've been legally driving for almost 30 years,)

So, uh,



how long did you drive illegally? That old statue of limitations ought to be gone and expired by now... :)

I drive and I DO like it. Yes ... I do like driving. I will amit that licenses are given out way too easily. There are to many people on the road that shouldn't be.