I am in Finland right now doing some work here, and I am amazed by the network of bike paths I have seen in Oulo. These are grade separated bike paths that parallel and in some cases go beyond where the auto roads go.
The bikes here tend to be heavy "workman" type bikes, most of which have racks, often have fenders and many seem to have built in locks, but few are ever locked to anything but themselves. I have seen helmets, but they are few and far between. They are recommended, or so I have been told by the locals, but they tend NOT to adorn most riders' heads.
I have not seen drop bars or spandex anywhere. The mode seems to be basically "rolling pedestrian" in downtown areas (not much of a downtown... more like "downvillage") but faster on the paths. I see cyclists everywhere... and it has been raining. Speeds pick up on the paths themselves, but folks are not trying to reach "their personal best" at every opportunity. Street clothes are the order of the day.
Trek has a store here, but I feel they are at a disadvantage as their bikes don't come with racks. Most all bikes have racks, some have baskets too. Some have these rather nifty wire cages that prevent ordinary clothing from getting caught in the spokes. I'll take pics and post later.
Their grade separated system seems to work quite well. When I told them about riding "with the cars" there was an expression of disbelief... well timed too as we just happened to go by car wreck... why would you want to "share the road... "
One guy had visited Seattle, and said he could not believe what goes on up there.
I plan on renting a bike on Saturday just to see whats it all about. More later.
John E
09-13-07, 07:31 AM
Do the bike paths really go between any two arbitrary Points A and B, Gene? How do they handle intersections between bike paths and roads? How far outside the central city are bicycles used as transportation?
genec
09-13-07, 08:57 AM
Do the bike paths really go between any two arbitrary Points A and B, Gene? How do they handle intersections between bike paths and roads? How far outside the central city are bicycles used as transportation?
The network is a nearly parallel grade separated system. Grade separation means the bike paths for the most part go under the roads, thus avoiding intersections; "mostly parallel," as in the bike paths sometimes take different shorter routes. "Often the path is easier and shorter than the auto route" was what I was told by locals. There are areas closed to cars that are accessible by bike. And the only areas I have seen closed to bike were the freeways, that were paralleled by a bike path. There are a few at grade intersections, and these are treated like sidewalk at a street. Cars stop for you. Speed limits here are quite reasonable on the streets where pedestrians or cyclists may cross.
Check out the "pedestrian street" at this link: http://www.ouka.fi/panoraamat360/index_j_e.html
Check out the maps at this URL... http://kartta.ouka.fi/index_us.htm
select tourist and Oulu. The narrow dashed routes are the bike paths, the thick red lines are the freeways.
The bike paths do not appear to cover each and every area of the city; sidewalks are also used in a rolling pedestrian mode, but on the other hand, there are areas were cars are not permitted.
Can one get everywhere? I can't guarantee that any more than I can guarantee that everyone also speaks english... but thus far, everyone has spoken english. There are gas stations for instance off of the major arterials for which I would bet no bike access is available.
Is it a perfect system... no, in that I think high speed cycling could be a problem in some places... but then I also encounter that situation on the regular streets in the US, where one has to temper one's pace to watch out for potentially crossing motorists. I also did not see any stop signs on the bike paths... so a cyclist will have to watch for potentially crossing another cyclist. (there are road signs and direction signs and in places, a center stripe and directional arrows)
It is a far more extensive network than I have ever seen, or might have imagined actually existed. (Now I might have imagined such a network, but only in dreams :D )
genec
09-13-07, 09:01 AM
Sorry John, your quote keeps ending up in the middle of the reply... it should be at the top and that is where it shows in my previews.
Bekologist
09-13-07, 09:45 AM
those darn finns, tossing Vehicular Cycling out with the bathwater. Curses! ;)
genec
09-13-07, 11:53 AM
those darn finns, tossing Vehicular Cycling out with the bathwater. Curses! ;)
Yeah they seem to do it with a near vengeance. I have seen "no biking signs" on the main Freeways... which are roughly what my local arterials look like...
And I have not yet seen anyone biking on a "car street."
I have finally seen drop bars, twice now... once with them flipped up to make a comfort bike, and once as a racer/fast rider zooming down the path, helmet and all. No lycra/spandex, but he was wearing a close fitting outfit of a bright color vice the usual dark heavy cordura nylon jackets I see everywhere.
randya
09-13-07, 01:21 PM
I'm willing to bet those paths are well plowed and biking continues unabated through the winter months too
genec
09-13-07, 05:31 PM
I'm willing to bet those paths are well plowed and biking continues unabated through the winter months too
I have nothing but the word of the locals... whom I have seen riding in cold rain. "We change the tires and ride in the snow also, and ya they plow like the roads."
I wondered the same thing.
I would have to see it to believe it though. But then you'd have to see these paths to believe them.
mandovoodoo
09-13-07, 05:36 PM
That approach to transportation and a more compact structure to our cities would gradually win people over. I've gradually come to dislike driving cars, but am stuck doing it!
Helmet Head
09-13-07, 06:48 PM
How many hills? How steep? What are the population densities? What is the average trip length? What is the cost to drive and park a car?
Nycycle
09-13-07, 08:05 PM
genec, thank you for posting all this, I am anxious to see the pics you post.
randya
09-13-07, 09:23 PM
so based on your experience there, is the difference between the US and Europe that the US is 'too spread out' to support higher levels of bicycling, as stated by you-know-who you-know-where?
genec
09-13-07, 09:28 PM
How many hills? How steep? What are the population densities? What is the average trip length? What is the cost to drive and park a car?
Seems fairly flat where I am... yes, an ideal condition, but as I have expressed regarding even San Diego, the local neighborhoods are also fairly flat, it is just leaving the neighborhoods that one encounters the difficulty of hills... and yet we don't see nearly anywhere the daily cycling traffic I see here.
The trip length info might be somewhat hard to get. I'll try to get into some discussions tomorrow with cyclists on the paths.
I'll ask about the cost of driving.
The population density is fairly low, there is a very spread out rural feeling, it is not as if everyone is living in a dense housing block and just cycling seconds away to work or shop.
I don't see really all that many cars, (which brings up surprise for the poor taksi driving habits I have seen) BTW taksi is how they spell it here.
Not to diss the Fins, but they also seem to have problems queuing up in lines, perhaps it is an expectation that with such a low population, why should one "wait their turn." I noticed this on both the flights I have taken in country (there was no order while boarding, in spite of the orderly callout for seating). And I have seen the same disorder around food lines, where jumping the line happened regularly. I can't help wonder if this social impatience is part of the driving habits I have seen.
Of course in all of this I am getting a tiny picture... "the blind men describing the elephant" sort of thing.
I did manage to pick up a great map... a printed version of the online map I posted earlier. Just looking at the paths available for treking is enough to make me drool. I hope the weather holds. It cleared yesterday and became quite cold... the sky is filled with red clouds this morning... red in morning, sailor take warning. It is 6:35am local, 8:35pm San Diego time. My laptop is still on San Diego time.
genec
09-13-07, 09:46 PM
so based on your experience there, is the difference between the US and Europe that the US is 'too spread out' to support higher levels of bicycling, as stated by you-know-who you-know-where?
Well the distances between cities may be too huge anywhere, but in the US, in San Diego, there are neighborhoods where the local radius of a couple miles is fairly flat, where bikes could be easily used for local errands. (I do this now, and have done it in other areas of town), but one has to "brave" the traffic which is quite heavy anywhere you might go (everyone is driving... one to a car, one huge car space to a person). So in spite of a difference in density... I have heard arguments that cycling in places in Europe succeeds due to their density (people in small villages) yet the US has a similar "village system" we call neighborhoods (within the cities, country areas are another story altogether**), and our populations in these neighborhoods is high enough to support local merchants, but "everyone" simply drives, thus crowding the streets and making cycling "uncomfortable" for many. There is also this uncanny pursuit for speed, both shared by motorists and by the vehicular cycling set (JF himself mentions the pursuit for speed and equates it to cycling pleasure).
I don't see a similar pursuit for speed by cyclists here... the mode seems to be rolling pedestrian in the core of the city, and a bit faster out between destinations... but no one is working to go 17-18MPH, as I typically pursue in the city.
**Aside: I was really reminded of the vast distances "in the country" while in a holding pattern over central Ohio... outside of Columbus... the checkerboard arrangement of the farmland and the individual house set on a huge chunk of land does somewhat bring to mind that distances to convenient services may not be all that convenient to everyone. Some of those lonely roads looked like they might be quite nice to bike upon... but that is the vision of someone who has toured and has enjoyed long distance cycling... something that is hardly practical for that section of the population that might live 20+ miles to the nearest food store.
But certainly this distance issue doesn't apply to our densest cities, where there are food stores and all sorts of services within just a mile or two. The cities should be filled with cyclists short hopping from one place to another, but instead we chose to go that mile or two in car, while complaining about traffic. :rolleyes:
randya
09-13-07, 09:52 PM
so if people in the US arranged their circumstances so that they lived within 5 miles or so of their employment and other destinations, we could do it. I thought so.
btw, 50% of the US population now lives in urban areas....
genec
09-13-07, 10:01 PM
so if people in the US arranged their circumstances so that they lived within 5 miles or so of their employment and other destinations, we could do it. I thought so.
btw, 50% of the US population now lives in urban areas....
I have read that the average errand trip is around 2 miles, while the average commute is around 12 miles... so certainly some of that could be modified for cycling.
bmclaughlin807
09-13-07, 11:31 PM
I have nothing but the word of the locals... whom I have seen riding in cold rain. "We change the tires and ride in the snow also, and ya they plow like the roads."
I wondered the same thing.
I would have to see it to believe it though. But then you'd have to see these paths to believe them.
With the exception of the second huge snowstorm last winter, the bike paths here in Denver are plowed. Usually at the same time as the major roads, if not SOONER.
The only reason they weren't plowed then is because after the fiasco with the first snowstorm, they stole our plows and used them on the roads. :mad: By the time they DID get around to plowing, the paths were a huge mess from the partially melted and refrozen mess. It took about a month before they were really usable again. Other than that, I never had a problem using the bike paths in the two winters I've cycled here in Denver.
Teme
09-14-07, 01:35 AM
It's almost same everywhere in Finland. I love this country. I live 20km from center of Helsinki and I don't need car for anything. I can ride almost everywhere or take the public transportation. To get to Helsinki I don't have to go to "car road" at all. This morning when I was riding to work before 6am, I realised how much I love this place. Outside the rush hours even capital area is still really quiet place.
If someone wants to see capital area by bike, just drop me private message and let's try to arrange something cool for daily ride. Oh well.. winter is coming and here winter is usually really nasty time. Cold wind, around 0C, and something between snow and water coming down from the sky. I'd prefer nothern parts of Finland - there the winter looks like winter with snow.
Teme <3 Helsinki and Espoo ;)
crtreedude
09-14-07, 04:10 AM
This reminds me of rural Costa Rica. Lots of people going to work on bikes. Our office worker shows up on a bike everyday - she lives about 5 kilometers from the office. One day a week she picks up all the fruits and vegetables for us from the farmers market - and pays a cab to take her to our house. (we pay the cab)
The speed on the bikes is kept pretty low - usually between 10 and 14 KPH it seems. No special clothes.
genec
09-14-07, 04:10 AM
It's almost same everywhere in Finland. I love this country. I live 20km from center of Helsinki and I don't need car for anything. I can ride almost everywhere or take the public transportation. To get to Helsinki I don't have to go to "car road" at all. This morning when I was riding to work before 6am, I realised how much I love this place. Outside the rush hours even capital area is still really quiet place.
If someone wants to see capital area by bike, just drop me private message and let's try to arrange something cool for daily ride. Oh well.. winter is coming and here winter is usually really nasty time. Cold wind, around 0C, and something between snow and water coming down from the sky. I'd prefer nothern parts of Finland - there the winter looks like winter with snow.
Teme <3 Helsinki and Espoo ;)
Good to hear... I am up in Oulu... I am finding it quite interesting. Gonna try to rent a bike tomorrow and get a good look around.
The taksi drivers around here are quite nuts though. I thought it was just one or two of them, but so far every taksi I have been in has had a very aggressive driver. Watch out for taksi.
crtreedude
09-14-07, 04:10 AM
Oh, but we don't have bike paths - cars, bikes, horses, etc. all mingle on the road together
genec
09-14-07, 11:11 AM
Well I rented a bike. 12 euros, for essentially a single speed "huffy-like" bike. The bike values at 259 euros. I saw some nice multi speed bikes... 3, 7, and 12 speeds, the first two with internal hubs, the latter a deraileur system, the last one was a top of the line bike running 459 euros, nice basket, the "spiderweb-like" protector around the rear wheel, fenders and a rack and halogen light that works off a front hub generator. No nonsense, very utilitarian.
Talked to the guys at the shop for a bit and some cyclists out on the road... the figure 10km comes up a lot for typical commutes. Riders indicated that the most used paths are plowed in the winter... and this was somewhat evident by plow like scratches in the pavement on some main paths. The outlying paths such as the one near the beach are not plowed... "no one goes in winter."
I have seen young and quite old out cycling... I hit it at rush hour today... and the bike traffic is pretty steady. I also saw my first drop bar roadie... on the road and pushing hard. The guys at the bike shop mentioned that they do sell road bikes, for long tours and longer rides, but the shop was heavily stocked with "everyday bikes." The even sell "trek with campagnolo." The shop was full of everyday ordinary stuff... not racer stuff. Lots of utilitarian day to day gear.
BTW I mentioned a parallel network of paths... I don't want that to be misconstrued as a bunch of sidepaths, that is not the case. These are paths that reach the same destinations, but by an alternative route. Often you cannot see the paths from the main roads, nor can you see the "car roads" from the paths. Makes for quiet cycling. This breaks down in the city core however, and cyclists use the wide sidewalks in the "downtown area." However the very heart of the downtown core is pedestrian only, and cars cannot go there... bikes can.
Cars do stop for you. I made the mistake of stopping for an approaching car on one of the places where the path and road cross at grade. The motorist stopped and gave me a look that said, "get on with it." I did and then they went on. In the city core, you follow ped rules and go with the traffic lights.
I have to admit for a long time road cyclist, it feels a bit odd, especially where I ride on the sidewalks... I have a strong urge to simply jump onto the road. Where the paths are well isolated, it is fantastic... very quiet and very smooth. There are numerous bridges built for bikes... and it is not like this is some ancient European city; for instance one very nice long bridge I crossed had a date of 1995 on it. The bridges I have used give a short cut access to a resort area near the sea. Motorists had to drive quite a bit further to gain the same access. Don't get me wrong there either, it isn't like the paths only go to park areas... I just happened to want to go to a restaurant in that area, and see the Atlantic from this side. :D (looks cold)
In other areas, the paths offer very complete coverage of the city, but by alternative routes than the roads. Where a road might approach from say the north, the paths are routed to approach (by being below grade) from the south. Imagine your fingers on your left hand as "car streets," now imagine the fingers on your right hand as bike paths (which are about 8 feet wide BTW). Now interlock your fingers in a prayer like configuration... this is how the paths and streets work to meet the same locations.
LittleBigMan
09-14-07, 09:30 PM
I don't see why it has to be an "either/or." Either the bike path, or the road.
If a bike path is there, that's great for those who prefer them. It gets some people started in their love of bicycling. I use them sometimes, when it suits me, for example, to get past gridlock to my advantage.
As long as my right to the road remains uninfringed, I welcome as many options as are provided.
genec
09-14-07, 10:04 PM
I don't see why it has to be an "either/or." Either the bike path, or the road.
If a bike path is there, that's great for those who prefer them. It gets some people started in their love of bicycling. I use them sometimes, when it suits me, for example, to get past gridlock to my advantage.
As long as my right to the road remains uninfringed, I welcome as many options as are provided.
You have not seen a network such as this... this is not like any bike path/system of bike routes I have ever seen in the US.
What if you never needed to use road to get to where you wanted to go?
LittleBigMan
09-14-07, 10:27 PM
What if you never needed to use road to get to where you wanted to go?
On my route, the bike path would take me alongside the roads, crossing the existing roads and driveways, creating more stops and yields. It would make my hour-plus commute very frustrating.
I have 44 stop lights or signs on my route as it is. I don't need another 66.
That's my honest feeling about it.
But I don't live in Finland, so I can't speak about that. ;)
petit filet
09-14-07, 10:52 PM
On my route, the bike path would take me alongside the roads, crossing the existing roads and driveways, creating more stops and yields. It would make my hour-plus commute very frustrating.
The point that you're missing is that Scandanavia is not Hotlanta.
Thankfully.
LittleBigMan
09-14-07, 11:11 PM
The point that you're missing is that Scandanavia is not Hotlanta.
Thankfully.
I didn't miss that at all. I said where I lived was not Finland, and I couldn't speak for cyclists there.
The point you're missing is that Atlanta's road design is common in America.
Maybe you should reread this post, only two posts back:
I don't see why it has to be an "either/or." Either the bike path, or the road.
If a bike path is there, that's great for those who prefer them. It gets some people started in their love of bicycling. I use them sometimes, when it suits me, for example, to get past gridlock to my advantage.
As long as my right to the road remains uninfringed, I welcome as many options as are provided.
Teme
09-14-07, 11:20 PM
Nowdays here the biggest towns in Finland are really trying to reduce cars at the streets. The strategy usually contains 2 parts: Public transportation and bicycles. At least here they are doing their best to guarantee, that it is comfortable to ride or take the bus.
One of the best tools for the riding at capiltal area is (http://kevytliikenne.ytv.fi/) which can be used to plan your ride from place A to place B. It tries to choose the shortest route. It was showing the best route when I tested it.
petit filet
09-14-07, 11:31 PM
The point you're missing is that Atlanta's road design is common in America.
No, that's a given. That Hotlanta's road design is common to the US. Stating the obvious serves what purpose?
What doesn't make sense is that you're projecting your Hotlanta experience upon the reality that is Scandinavian bike pathways.
Scandinavian bike pathways are much, much different than what you have experienced.
Thankfully.
LittleBigMan
09-15-07, 06:56 PM
No, that's a given. That Hotlanta's road design is common to the US. Stating the obvious serves what purpose?
What doesn't make sense is that you're projecting your Hotlanta experience upon the reality that is Scandinavian bike pathways.
Scandinavian bike pathways are much, much different than what you have experienced.
Thankfully.
My goodness.
I admitted that I'm not familiar with Finland's bike pathways.
But have you ever cycled in "Hotlanta?" (Dam, I thought "Hotlanta" was a term that went out 20 years ago!)
Please, limit your posts to your experience.
genec
09-15-07, 09:30 PM
On my route, the bike path would take me alongside the roads, crossing the existing roads and driveways, creating more stops and yields. It would make my hour-plus commute very frustrating.
I have 44 stop lights or signs on my route as it is. I don't need another 66.
That's my honest feeling about it.
But I don't live in Finland, so I can't speak about that. ;)
Like I said, you have not experienced a system like this... neither had I before I got here. Sidepaths do exist.. in the city core, where the wide sidewalk is used by peds and cyclists alike. They also exist in the residential neighborhoods... in both areas, the speed limits are 40KPH, or about 25MPH. Further out, where the speed limits are higher, 60, 80, and on the freeway 100KPH, the paths don't go along beside the road, they take alternative routes, and where they do cross the road, they go below it. With such a system, you would not only have fewer stops than what you have now, but fewer intersections. The system here is built for the cyclists' convenience, not the motorists'. I noticed several shorter routes to various locations by bike path, verses the longer out of the way auto roads... The realization here apparently is that hey, cars take little effort, route them the longer way. It is not Autocentric thinking. It is a system based on people, with autos being used as a convenience when it makes sense. Autos don't get all the prime real estate... parking is often off to the side or behind destinations, unlike the right out in front huge parking lots that dominate America. And as I mentioned the core of downtown is a pedestrian and cyclist area. I was a bit shocked to see a taksi on that central area yesterday, but apparently they are allowed at the slowest possible speed... for delivery and for the invalid (I was told this when I expressed shock at seeing the car there)
It is really quite different.
You guys are going to get a kick out of this... I was honked at. Yup... here in bike heaven. I was on a sidepath out in a residential neighborhood, and I came to an intersection where a motorist was about to make a right turn. I stopped. (what the heck, I'm a well trained American cyclist). The motorist stopped before entering the turn and honked at me... indicating I should get on with it. I was shocked. I "tested" this a bit further down the road and put myself in the position to be right hooked... twice... something we would surly avoid in the US. Both times the motorists stopped and waited for me to cross. Now bear in mind that is probably not the best behaviour for a cyclist... it is after all just as easy to adjust one's speed to avoid interaction... especially at the stately speed limits of 40KPH for the motorists. But I had to know.
It really is different here.
By the way, the neighborhoods are just as mixed as in the US... some are apartments or condos, and some are houses, with small yards. These do not exist in the same location... where one neighborhood you may have several apartment buildings, another neighborhood will be single houses.
Had a good time riding about in the light rain yesterday... fenders are a wonderful thing. :D My only problem was the lack of a hat and gloves... it was darn cold for this San Diego boy, and my head and fingers were quite uncomfortable. I noticed the locals tend to also wear "mufflers" or what ever those long thick wrap around things are called. If I come back, I am going to be better prepared. My coat kept me warm enough, but not my hands or head.
Well I'm winging back today so I'll try to post pics when I get a chance (need access to my home computer) and after I recover from the "time shock." (something like 16 hours of flying, plus layovers... ug!) I got some video too, by cycling with one hand... (bit awkward) I'll see if I can put it on youtube.
Teme
09-16-07, 01:12 AM
Today at Helsingin sanomat (major news paper at Helsinki) had short news item that Helsinki is trying to double number of bicycle riders. City officials will have public meeting next Wednesday where they are going to dicuss about the plans. I have to check if I can go to there.
So if the things has been good already, I suppose they'll get even better. Welcome to Finland. Everything but weather is almosta like we were in Heaven. ;)
atbman
09-16-07, 11:32 AM
When I was doing some research into European bike journey patters, Oulu (on Arctic circle) showed up as having 36% of all journeys by bike
atbman
09-16-07, 11:32 AM
Bikes don't patter, that's dogs. Should have been pattern, of course
LittleBigMan
09-16-07, 08:17 PM
Finland is not the US. Major differences all around, economically, socially, transportationally, etc.
I would love to enjoy a cyclist-centric transportation system in Finland (during summer.) But we live in the US, and the amount of money it would take to duplicate the Finnish system here, where the auto is fully entrenched, would never fly in our auto-centric society.
genec
09-17-07, 01:29 AM
Finland is not the US. Major differences all around, economically, socially, transportationally, etc.
I would love to enjoy a cyclist-centric transportation system in Finland (during summer.) But we live in the US, and the amount of money it would take to duplicate the Finnish system here, where the auto is fully entrenched, would never fly in our auto-centric society.
The funny thing is that to remove say even 20% of the motorists and put them on bike paths would be a 20% improvment to the road situations. Therefore directing funds for transportation that is focused on cycle transportation can also improve the traffic situation for autos. But that takes forward thinking and long term commitments.
genec
09-17-07, 11:29 AM
Some pics from Finland.
The first shows a typical scene out along the arterial roads with speed limits of 60KPH. It is a bike crossroads with below grade crossing, and a handy direction sign.
The next pic is typical below grade crossing.
Then there is the bike shop and my rental bike (BTW the bike featured in the window is a Gary Fisher.)
Then two interior shots of the bike shop offerings
Then bikes typically parked outside of a large shop... the racks were full, so folks just parked where ever.
Then a highend bike of about 400+ euros, note that this bike is locked to the rack... a somewhat unusual thing, but it is a highend bike.
Then scraper grooves on the main paths... showing they do plow in the winter... I saw these grooves on many of the main paths.
And last, the rare drop bar cyclist.
genec
09-17-07, 11:37 AM
BTW I went to check out Tunturi, the Finnish maker of many of the bikes over there. There is no English link to bikes... only to exercise equipment. For bikes you must follow the Finnish link. Apparently they don't sell bikes to the world, or don't see a market in the US for their comfortable practical bikes.
Tunturi bikes... in Finish:
http://www.tunturi.com/bicycles/index.cfm
This looked like one of the higher end bikes offered by Tunturi for daily use.
http://www.tunturi.com/bicycles/product.cfm?id=33&s=f
genec
09-17-07, 11:42 AM
as soon as I can get a you tube account working, I'll post some movies.
Winter76
09-17-07, 12:16 PM
Wow, I love the below grade crossings. I wish we could get those here.
Actually any kind of bike path here would be great, something to avoid the rediculous number of stop lights and stop signs.
genec
09-17-07, 12:27 PM
Uploaded this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnEP8Yzennc
This is a typical sidepath at grade bike path in Oulu out in the residential neighborhood, note the curb and the sidewalk parallel. This was somewhat rare. Often the paths were also used as sidewalks.
genec
09-17-07, 12:38 PM
Below grade bike path typical of paths outside of the city at or near arterial roads and freeways. The path may or may not parallel a road, it may take a shorter route to a destination, but no doubt paths and roads are going to cross from time to time, and this is how they do it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgUkNxUE0wc
genec
09-17-07, 12:43 PM
Wow, I love the below grade crossings. I wish we could get those here.
Actually any kind of bike path here would be great, something to avoid the rediculous number of stop lights and stop signs.
The thing is these paths went everywhere... not just through a park or along some convenient river or RR bed.
I was really quite amazed at the number of bridges built to support cycling in the city... no way would you see that sort of monetary commitment in the US. The funny thing is a network of great paths like that might possibly encourage folks to actually ride bikes enough to reduce some road congestion.
I don't care what others say... the whole notion of sharing the road with cars freaks out a lot of people (perhaps they know how poorly they drive... :rolleyes:) Give them a network as intense as this, and people might actually take to cycling.
randya
09-17-07, 12:48 PM
not that a path system as described wouldn't be a little bit of heaven on earth, but Portland had a 21% increase in cycling (measured at the Willamette River bridge crossings) between 2006 and 2007, with very little new infrastructure added.
BTW I talked to the Taksi driver about the laws regarding motorists and cyclists. He said (yeah this is hearsay... so take it however you will) that motorists must watch for and stop for cyclists, but on the othe hand if a cyclist hits a motorist, it is the cyclist's fault.
Helmet Head
09-17-07, 03:37 PM
The thing is these paths went everywhere... not just through a park or along some convenient river or RR bed.
I was really quite amazed at the number of bridges built to support cycling in the city... no way would you see that sort of monetary commitment in the US. The funny thing is a network of great paths like that might possibly encourage folks to actually ride bikes enough to reduce some road congestion.
I don't care what others say... the whole notion of sharing the road with cars freaks out a lot of people (perhaps they know how poorly they drive... :rolleyes:) Give them a network as intense as this, and people might actually take to cycling.
I was just in Palm Springs this weekend - lots of bike paths meandering all over the city. They have named loops which are comprised of bike paths and streets with bike lanes. There are quite a few separated grade crossings for the paths. While the temperature at midday are not conducive to cycling, the mornings and evenings are ideal. And the whole area is flat as a pancake. Never-the-less, I saw hardly anyone else riding on the 10 mile ride I did with my daughter. We were the only ones who ride our bikes to Soak City, which had a nice bike rack right next to the entrance. I believe this is due to sprawl and low population density. So most "short trips" are more than 5 miles long - too long for most people to use a bike to ride. Plus, parking is abundant and mostly free (though at Soak City even at $8/car still everyone drives).
The idea that facilities encourage cycling might seem intuitive, but there is no evidence to support it. These European cities with lots of cycling and infrastructure always had lots of cycling, before the cyclist-specific infrastructure was added. Just like Davis, CA.
The most effective way to encourage cycling is to make it difficult/inconvenient/too expensive to use a car. As long as car usage is convenient and relatively affordable, most people will opt for the path of least resistance: drive the car.
Bekologist
09-17-07, 03:47 PM
americans are sucking too much tailpipe. cities like Portland show how a focus on bicycling as transportation can have undeniably positive increases in the numbers of bicyclists.
any one that attempts to deny portlands' gains in cyclists thru infrastructure and planning for bikes in the transportation mix is delusional.
and facilities do increase bicycling, head. your denial of this is astounding- Davis CA has a 17 percent bicycling transportation rate, versus 1.2 percent average for the state of California - you claim bike infrastructure has had negative effects on bicycling in Davis? bicycling infrastructure has had negative effects in European communities that plan for bicycling in the transportation mix? :roflmao: :rolleyes:
genec
09-17-07, 05:11 PM
I was just in Palm Springs this weekend - lots of bike paths meandering all over the city. They have named loops which are comprised of bike paths and streets with bike lanes. There are quite a few separated grade crossings for the paths. While the temperature at midday are not conducive to cycling, the mornings and evenings are ideal. And the whole area is flat as a pancake. Never-the-less, I saw hardly anyone else riding on the 10 mile ride I did with my daughter. We were the only ones who ride our bikes to Soak City, which had a nice bike rack right next to the entrance. I believe this is due to sprawl and low population density. So most "short trips" are more than 5 miles long - too long for most people to use a bike to ride. Plus, parking is abundant and mostly free (though at Soak City even at $8/car still everyone drives).
The idea that facilities encourage cycling might seem intuitive, but there is no evidence to support it. These European cities with lots of cycling and infrastructure always had lots of cycling, before the cyclist-specific infrastructure was added. Just like Davis, CA.
The most effective way to encourage cycling is to make it difficult/inconvenient/too expensive to use a car. As long as car usage is convenient and relatively affordable, most people will opt for the path of least resistance: drive the car.
I have not been to Palm Springs, but I would be willing to be the paths there don't come close to the utility of the paths in Oulu. Not the mention the laws and what you pointed out, the temperature.
As far as inconvenient, perhaps separate isolated areas that are closed to cars, such as pedestrian malls might help encourage cycling. One of the problems with shifting perception here is that everything is built to suit the auto... modify that a bit and focus on the human scale of things and quite possibly a trend toward cycling can take effect. If 20 % of the population did it regularly vice the 2% of all trips, think of the voice and impact that would have.
Helmet Head
09-17-07, 05:30 PM
I have not been to Palm Springs, but I would be willing to be the paths there don't come close to the utility of the paths in Oulu. Not the mention the laws and what you pointed out, the temperature.
As far as inconvenient, perhaps separate isolated areas that are closed to cars, such as pedestrian malls might help encourage cycling. One of the problems with shifting perception here is that everything is built to suit the auto... modify that a bit and focus on the human scale of things and quite possibly a trend toward cycling can take effect. If 20 % of the population did it regularly vice the 2% of all trips, think of the voice and impact that would have.
Again, if you make it inconvenient/expensive to use cars, then the usage of bikes will go up, regardless of the state of the infrastructure.
In other words, at best, "nice" infrastructure is the whipped cream - but there is no substance in it in terms of actually increasing bicycle usage.
americans are sucking too much tailpipe. cities like Portland show how a focus on bicycling as transportation can have undeniably positive increases in the numbers of bicyclists.
Do not confuse a focus on bicycling as transportation with improving infrastructure.
any one that attempts to deny portlands' gains in cyclists thru infrastructure and planning for bikes in the transportation mix is delusional.
So I guess you think Randya is delusional? She wrote:
... Portland had a 21% increase in cycling (measured at the Willamette River bridge crossings) between 2006 and 2007, with very little new infrastructure added.
and facilities do increase bicycling, head. your denial of this is astounding- Davis CA has a 17 percent bicycling transportation rate, versus 1.2 percent average for the state of California - you claim bike infrastructure has had negative effects on bicycling in Davis? bicycling infrastructure has had negative effects in European communities that plan for bicycling in the transportation mix? :roflmao: :rolleyes:
I was in Davis in the 1960s before they had a single bike lane, and bike usage was even higher then (22-25% - depending on what source you use). The rate has declined since the introduction of the cycling-specific facilities. You're confusing correlation with causation. I'm not trying to say that the facilities caused the rate of cycling to decline (that would be conflating correlation with causation), but I am saying that you certainly cannot credit the infrastructure for the high bike usage rates in Davis, when the usage was significantly higher before the infrastructure arrived.
Yes, all the cyclists there created a demand for "nice" facilities (the whipped cream), but the "nice" facilities do not create demand for bicycling. The unusally high per capita cycling rates existed in Davis before ANY of the bike-specific infrastructure was built.
I'm all for changing the culture to increase the rate of cycling. I just don't see any reason to believe improving or adding cyclist-specific infrastructure has anything to do with increase cycling rates by any significant degree.
LittleBigMan
09-17-07, 05:47 PM
The funny thing is that to remove say even 20% of the motorists and put them on bike paths would be a 20% improvment to the road situations. Therefore directing funds for transportation that is focused on cycle transportation can also improve the traffic situation for autos. But that takes forward thinking and long term commitments.
I ride a bike for transportation as often as possible. I know that my commitment to bicycle transportation (and mass transit, when I need to rest a bit) saves 1 to 2 tons of pollutants per year released into the atmosphere--that's me, all by myself. There are plenty of personal benefits as well, but I won't mention them, here.
Ok, so if you multiply that by 20% of the driving population, that's a HUGH JASS improvement.
But how do you propose to "remove 20% of the motorists?" Seriously, if commuting cyclists doubled, that would hardly put a dent in the percentage driving commuters. (But it would save tons of pollutants, that's for sure. :) )