This may be a stupid question, I wonder if it is possible to ride Furnace Creek unsupported. I am new to ultracycling but liked this years PBP a lot and would like to find a new challenge, this time preferably somewhere without rain.

no read the rules.

There's only one ride like you're looking for, the brand-new hoodoo 500 (going on this weekend). They have a "voyager" class, by application only.

There's other threads on this subject

Rules ay you need a crew, regulation size van, regulation amber lights, distance between vehicle and rider, all sorts of requirements. I thought it would be cool do do something like the 508 but after seeing what some people spend, forget it! Some spend nearly $10,000. Pay to fly in support members, pay for food, gas, rentals. Heck, if I had that kind of money, I'd rather buy a new bike!:D

no worries, beanz, when you are so good the whole nation knows you by name, you will have crew flocking to your side.

Oh yeah, you still have to pay.

So work on the donation angle: Beanz the great - Beanz the all-knowing - you think you got somethin but gues what, you ahint gat BEANZ -

I'm on your side, maan!

Rules ay you need a crew, regulation size van, regulation amber lights, distance between vehicle and rider, all sorts of requirements. I thought it would be cool do do something like the 508 but after seeing what some people spend, forget it! Some spend nearly $10,000. Pay to fly in support members, pay for food, gas, rentals. Heck, if I had that kind of money, I'd rather buy a new bike!:D

If you live in socal, it's not bad. Minivan rental is like $250, 3 tanks of gas, sucker your buddies out of their weekend to follow you around. Lights and signage is like $100(reusable), entry is like $300/rider. Start/finish hotels are optional for locals. You could do FC508 for about a grand, give or take. $10k is more like RAAM cost.

If you live in socal, it's not bad. Minivan rental is like $250, 3 tanks of gas, sucker your buddies out of their weekend to follow you around. Lights and signage is like $100(reusable), entry is like $300/rider. Start/finish hotels are optional for locals. You could do FC508 for about a grand, give or take. $10k is more like RAAM cost.

That's a LOT of moolah for some folks. Spending money needlessly renting a 78" vehicle (especially when the general definition of oversize vehicle is 84") adds a lot to the overall cost of the race. Start/finish hotels really aren't an option, since 29 Palms is at least a 3 hour drive from L.A. Most folks would be pretty exhausted after racing for 30-48 hours - so driving home would seem foolish and dangerous. And how about meals? Dinner Friday, breakfast, lunch and dinner Saturday and Sunday, and breakfast Monday adds up for three or four hungry people.

That's a LOT of moolah for some folks. Spending money needlessly renting a 78" vehicle (especially when the general definition of oversize vehicle is 84") adds a lot to the overall cost of the race. Start/finish hotels really aren't an option, since 29 Palms is at least a 3 hour drive from L.A. Most folks would be pretty exhausted after racing for 30-48 hours - so driving home would seem foolish and dangerous. And how about meals? Dinner Friday, breakfast, lunch and dinner Saturday and Sunday, and breakfast Monday adds up for three or four hungry people.

Didn't say it was cheap, just that it doesn't cost $10,000 to race FC508 if you're local. Dinner Friday is usually at a local restaurant. Saturday and Sunday's meals are on the road, usually sandwiches out of the cooler. For this years 508, we're skipping the start line hotel since we're local, and we're doing 2 man so we have the later start. We'll also be driving back Sunday afternoon/evening to LA. Minivan rental is the added cost this year as my Oddy has noise coming from the transmission and I don't want to risk it. Yeah, Chris has some weird ideas on oversized vehicles, but it's his race, his rules. FWIW, a bunch of these people that race it race other events and usually own a minivan already, so rental isn't an issue.

For this years 508, we're skipping the start line hotel since we're local, and we're doing 2 man so we have the later start. We'll also be driving back Sunday afternoon/evening to LA. Minivan rental is the added cost this year as my Oddy has noise coming from the transmission and I don't want to risk it. Yeah, Chris has some weird ideas on oversized vehicles, but it's his race, his rules. FWIW, a bunch of these people that race it race other events and usually own a minivan already, so rental isn't an issue.

Good luck with your race!

I've looked at the rules, and find them a tad overbearing (to say the least). I'll be very curious to hear how teams (and crews) felt about being crammed into one vehicle for the duration of the race; and how that affected everyone's ability to rest/sleep and otherwise deal with one another.

Have you done any races where the race doesn't dictate how teams switch off? It seems that the finishing times are significantly faster when relay team members can switch more often than just at time stations.

Good luck with your race!

I've looked at the rules, and find them a tad overbearing (to say the least). I'll be very curious to hear how teams (and crews) felt about being crammed into one vehicle for the duration of the race; and how that affected everyone's ability to rest/sleep and otherwise deal with one another.

Have you done any races where the race doesn't dictate how teams switch off? It seems that the finishing times are significantly faster when relay team members can switch more often than just at time stations.


I crewed for John Schlitter and Tim Woudenberg last year on Race Across Oregon. We took 3rd after Tim got sick and we went solo for a few hours, getting passed by the 2nd place team. Depended on the terrain, but generally 20 minute pulls at the start. Where it really helped was the climbs, we could leap frog up the road, give them 15 minute pulls and just keep the speed up on the climbs. For bikes that can't climb John and Phil raced 2 man this year in RAAM and averaged 17.37mph on the ascent from sea level to the first time station at 3000 feet, beating most the other teams, go figure. :) I'm sure they were doing the same thing we did on RAO.

FC508 will be interesting, we're doing 2 crew and 2 riders. Jim Verheul and Michael Wolfe riding Bacchetta's. Both of them are fast with JV being a Cat 2. Michael can climb, so we'll need to figure out who's going to ride what leg. Last year on his solo effort Michael passed 2 riders on Townes Pass.

I crewed for John Schlitter and Tim Woudenberg last year on Race Across Oregon. We took 3rd after Tim got sick and we went solo for a few hours, getting passed by the 2nd place team. Depended on the terrain, but generally 20 minute pulls at the start. Where it really helped was the climbs, we could leap frog up the road, give them 15 minute pulls and just keep the speed up on the climbs. For bikes that can't climb John and Phil raced 2 man this year in RAAM and averaged 17.37mph on the ascent from sea level to the first time station at 3000 feet, beating most the other teams, go figure. :) I'm sure they were doing the same thing we did on RAO.

FC508 will be interesting, we're doing 2 crew and 2 riders. Jim Verheul and Michael Wolfe riding Bacchetta's. Both of them are fast with JV being a Cat 2. Michael can climb, so we'll need to figure out who's going to ride what leg. Last year on his solo effort Michael passed 2 riders on Townes Pass.

Four people in a minivan with food, coolers, supplies, etc., sounds awful...
:eek:
But I'll be rooting for you. What's your team name?

PS
I was doing some research on-line about the rationale for the 78 inch rule when I learned that the race director drives a Delorean! HA HA HA, Deloreans are 78.3 inches!!!

If there are 4 people in the van, then that means no one is riding the bike. :) They went with Mussel. I have no clue why. I usually think snail when I see that, but these guys are anything but slow.

Four people in a minivan with food, coolers, supplies, etc., sounds awful...
:eek:
But I'll be rooting for you. What's your team name?

Sounds to me like you're B1tchin' and moaning about a race you won't even consider doing. Stop whining and race it or don't knock it 'till you try it!

Sounds to me like you're B1tchin' and moaning about a race you won't even consider doing. Stop whining and race it or don't knock it 'till you try it!

Then again he probably hasn't physically assaulted a volunteer before either....

This may be a stupid question, I wonder if it is possible to ride Furnace Creek unsupported. I am new to ultracycling but liked this years PBP a lot and would like to find a new challenge, this time preferably somewhere without rain.

Although it's too late this year, the Texas Time Trials includes a 500 mile event and is held on a 20 mile loop. There are no requirements for a support crew, and the nature of the course is very conducive for unsupported riders. Since the course is a short loop, there are no follow cars permitted on the course. It's best to have a support crew for any ultracycling event, but you can easily set up your own rest area with some coolers and a tent and support yourself.

See the Texas Time Trials website, www.tt24tt.com for details. It might give you something to plan for next year.

From the Furnace Creek rules:

B. Hummers (any model), Ford Excursions, fifteen passenger vans regardless of width, and motorhomes are not allowed for any purpose by anyone involved with the race. -DQ

While the race organizers are certainly free to make their own rules, this seems to be more of a political statement than a rule intended to ensure safety or fairness in competition.

From the Furnace Creek rules:



While the race organizers are certainly free to make their own rules, this seems to be more of a political statement than a rule intended to ensure safety or fairness in competition.

Did you read the rationale behind these exclusions? Basically it's to keep down on road obstructions. If you can't see around a vehicle to pass, you're more likely to misjudge and possibly cause an accident. The narrower/smaller overall size of the vehicle, the easier it is to pass safely. Shoot, I could easily imagine some riders showing up with class A diesel pusher type motorhomes to crew for them if allowed. Could you imagine trying to pass a 40' motorhome on your bike with a chase vehicle following you? Definitely not what I'd want to be doing.

As a side effect of this rule, it also helps level the playing field as it means everyone is restricted to basically a very similar sized envelope to carry all of their gear ensuring that they will all have to refuel and restock on a similar schedule unless they get creative. Imagine if you and your crew never had to stop and you had full facilities at your disposal the entire race. I'd be willing to bet it could definitely decrease a person's overall time.

My .02,
Rick

Edit: I do partially agree that your statement is correct though as the site shows for 2008 they're encouraging more "green" efforts from the teams.

From the Furnace Creek rules:



While the race organizers are certainly free to make their own rules, this seems to be more of a political statement than a rule intended to ensure safety or fairness in competition.

could be a width / height issue for passing / sight lines.
but i wonder if one could use a mini (or full size) school bus or tractor trailer, since they are not listed as banned?

Did you read the rationale behind these exclusions? Basically it's to keep down on road obstructions. If you can't see around a vehicle to pass, you're more likely to misjudge and possibly cause an accident. The narrower/smaller overall size of the vehicle, the easier it is to pass safely. Shoot, I could easily imagine some riders showing up with class A diesel pusher type motorhomes to crew for them if allowed. Could you imagine trying to pass a 40' motorhome on your bike with a chase vehicle following you? Definitely not what I'd want to be doing.

As a side effect of this rule, it also helps level the playing field as it means everyone is restricted to basically a very similar sized envelope to carry all of their gear ensuring that they will all have to refuel and restock on a similar schedule unless they get creative. Imagine if you and your crew never had to stop and you had full facilities at your disposal the entire race. I'd be willing to bet it could definitely decrease a person's overall time.

My .02,
Rick

Edit: I do partially agree that your statement is correct though as the site shows for 2008 they're encouraging more "green" efforts from the teams.

Notice that the rule prohibits the use of these vehicles in ANY capacity, not just as follow vehicles. The rules already a maximum width for follow vehicles, which would already exclude most, if not all of the vehicles specifically banned from use in a safety sensitive role.

My guess would be people all ready tried to circumvent the width rule so it was easier to just publish a few specific vehicles that would/could be readily used as a support vehicle just to make sure people got the message. As far as ruling them out for use in any capacity, I think they're just being redundant considering a follow vehicle is the only official vehicle allowed on the course other than what the race officials themselves are driving. Considering it's a safety issue for the most part, it would also mean that the race officials shouldn't be driving them either.

Bmike- I doubt you'd be able to use either of those considering I've never seen one that would fit into the aforementioned width rule.

Bmike- I doubt you'd be able to use either of those considering I've never seen one that would fit into the aforementioned width rule.

i should have added the [sarcasm] tag. :)
i figured as much.

it will be interesting to see what 'green' bike races look like.

Sounds to me like you're B1tchin' and moaning about a race you won't even consider doing. Stop whining and race it or don't knock it 'till you try it!

Geez...

I wasn't being critical, or *****in', moaning or whining; just making an observation. You have no idea whether I'd race or not; or whether I'd prefer an event with more racer-friendly rules (that are less a political statement of the organizer). You're a bit testy!

Although it's too late this year, the Texas Time Trials includes a 500 mile event and is held on a 20 mile loop. There are no requirements for a support crew, and the nature of the course is very conducive for unsupported riders. Since the course is a short loop, there are no follow cars permitted on the course. It's best to have a support crew for any ultracycling event, but you can easily set up your own rest area with some coolers and a tent and support yourself.

See the Texas Time Trials website, www.tt24tt.com for details. It might give you something to plan for next year.

Again, only my humble opinion...
but a 20 mile loop sounds, well, monotonous. The biggest challenge perhaps would be dealing with boredom. The Hoodoo has a category for self-supported riders; and also allows riders WITH crew to ride without being followed. I've had a vehicle follow me at night; and frankly, the sound of the engine is super distracting; especially knowing how slow I'm crawling on the climbs!
;-)

Again, only my humble opinion...
but a 20 mile loop sounds, well, monotonous. The biggest challenge perhaps would be dealing with boredom. The Hoodoo has a category for self-supported riders; and also allows riders WITH crew to ride without being followed. I've had a vehicle follow me at night; and frankly, the sound of the engine is super distracting; especially knowing how slow I'm crawling on the climbs!
;-)

Well, I've ridden the Texas Time Trials twice now. Last year in the 24-hour and this year the 500 mile event. I can say that although I was concerned about boredom, that has never been a problem. One advantage of the loop is that you learn exactly how to deal with each element of the course since you ride it again and again.

I will say though, that there a re a few hills on the course that I'd rather not see again for a while.:p

Another interesting aspect of the FC508 Rules:

Here's the rule about support vehicles:

"Solo racers, solo tandems, and and two- or four-person relay teams bring ONLY ONE support vehicle for the duration of the race. Eight-person tandem relay teams may have no more than two vehicles. Note: Any vehicle associated in any way with any racer(s) is considered a "support vehicle," thus "unofficial" support vehicles or family/friend cheering squads are not allowed."

Then later comes a rule about crew:

"A racer may add crew members at any time and anywhere during the race. The crew must notify Race HQ immediately and the new crew member must sign the Release of Liability / Agreement to Terms and Conditions prior to joining the crew. –DQ"


How can you add a crew if they aren't allowed to drive out on the course and meet the rider?

How can you add a crew if they aren't allowed to drive out on the course and meet the rider?[/FONT]
You arrange in advance for that person to be on the crew, and your van picks them up at, say, mile 320. Not sure why you would want to do that, but I guess there's a reason.

Geez...

I wasn't being critical, or *****in', moaning or whining; just making an observation. You have no idea whether I'd race or not; or whether I'd prefer an event with more racer-friendly rules (that are less a political statement of the organizer). You're a bit testy!

You're right I don't know whether you would do this event. However, this is not an event you just pick up your bike and decide to ride. There is an awful amount of planning, selecting your crew, your gear and the expense. And up until this point I have never heard of you. So if you are serious about doing this event Solo I should be seeing you at some of the hard doubles and some longer brevets to get you ready.

As far as Chris K. You may read it as a political statement but what's wrong with trying to protect Death Valley National Park and keeping the "natives" happy as we roll through there towns at 3am. I don't find the rules overbearing none the least. And I actually enjoy racing the format of his race. Race it and you will see that every thing does have a purpose in the end.

SAFETY is the key when you are directing events like this. Imagine a rider that is sleep deprived then imagine that their crew is just as sleep deprived. Some safeguards have to be taken. Imagine all the agencies he needs to placate every year to put on this event. Too many vehicles going 15-20 mph on the 127 leaving Shoshone to Bake provide direct support to their rider would be really dangerous for crew and rider.

Size limitations on vehicles-- when I need to pass someone I don't want to have to go so far over on the double yellow to see around the support vehicle to see if I can pass and then my support vehicle also has to pass them. You have to start somewhere with support vehicle sizes or people will show up with RVs and the like.

Then again he probably hasn't physically assaulted a volunteer before either....

Ooohhh! SNAP!

Got a sampling of some pix up on the home page left side from the 508 event last weekend....enjoy

Crewing with Jim Kern, Michelle (Karta's gf), and of course Karta (Godzilla, solo recumbent) was a great experience. This is as advertised "the toughest 48hrs in sports." Also met many other bent competitors at the bent-only dinner the night before the race.