"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - Bad idea on my part, or par for the course?

I have a question regarding what is considered proper on a race training group ride.

Here is the situation:

Group training ride, 20-30 people. Due to daylight fading fast, it's only going to be an hour, maybe an hour and a half long. I rode out to it, so I'm getting my 2+, no problem. We start later than advertised, which irks me some to be burning daylight, but not a big deal.

Start out, get going at a decent pace. I've done this group ride before, but always on Tuesday nights for some reason, not Thursday nights. Tuesday night always has attacks thrown up the road, and regroupings at each major intersection along the way.

Not wanting to be a d!ck and start things too early, or at all if not appropriate, I ask the guy who is leading the ride what the general format of the ride is. He was less than helpful, with his response basically telling me to do whatever I want. A little dismissive in his tone. I did not appreciate this.

So, when I take my turn at the front, and gradually ramp it up to a good hard clip, I flick the elbow to indicate the international sign for "come around me, damn it." Only the person next to me decides that he isn't going to give me some draft, but ride next to me. Now, I am not part of this club, so maybe this is the standard format. Maybe everyone pulls with someone next to them until they feel like pulling off, rotation be damned. Well, as no one had explained this to me, and the guy next to me felt himself above the task, I decided to whatever the hell I felt like doing.

I proceeded to half-wheel the next three people in line. Finally, two people had the stones to actually take a pull and come around me. Of all the people there, it was a girl who I know to be a freshman in HIGH SCHOOL, and another high school dude. They suffered, but they did it in a respectable fashion (like one would expect in...shock...a race), and I made sure to nod my appreciation as they fell back through the line, which had now started to rotate, and I moved back. I made a mental note to look out for that girl in future women's P/1/2/3 races, because she was just as strong as the Cat1/2 girls I know.

So my question is this: if you are in a supposed race-prep training ride, and someone knows what an elbow flick means, yet refuses to pull through, is it ever appropriate to work them over? If they want to have a pissing contest pulling the group, is it appropriate to go along, knowing you'll win?

So my question is this: if you are in a supposed race-prep training ride, and someone knows what an elbow flick means, yet refuses to pull through, is it ever appropriate to work them over? If they want to have a pissing contest pulling the group, is it appropriate to go along, knowing you'll win?


Appropriate? Hell, I wouldn't expect anyone to do anything less. Maybe give them a little gap present when they're behind you in the line later on...

Sounds like the old "this group ride is a race" mentality where people want to suck wheel and sprint around you for town signs and crap like that. When that happens, I just go to the front and pull and let the wheel suckers do what they want. I do group training rides for TRAINING, not for bragging rights about "winning" a group ride.

Appropriate? Hell, I wouldn't expect anyone to do anything less. Maybe give them a little gap present when they're behind you in the line later on...


Back at school, I was one of the A racers, so it was kind of my job to keep the Bs from half-wheeling the Cs, and the C's from halfwheeling the B women and D men. On the way out, ride a nice easy pace and when the guy next to you looked like he might be be in a bit of discomfort, slow it down a notch or offer to pull off. Shepherd of the flock, that sort of thing. On the way back, anything goes, of course.

So I felt both bad for halfwheeling someone, but also that they deserved it for not pulling through. I forgot to mention that when I tried to finish taking my turn when the first guy pulled off, the guy behind me steadfastly refused to come through, which was part of the problem.

So my question is this: if you are in a supposed race-prep training ride, and someone knows what an elbow flick means, yet refuses to pull through, is it ever appropriate to work them over? If they want to have a pissing contest pulling the group, is it appropriate to go along, knowing you'll win?

Absolutely appropriate. The guy said you could do whatever you want. You provided opportunities for cooperation and got none. I've gapped people off the back of a fast pack for 200m, then attacked and left them back there when they annoyed me like that. It's actually really fun, in an aggressive sort of way. If they try to hang on, I'm sprinting for yellow line, then the white line, until I shake them -- it's VERY obvious what I'm doing.

Sounds like a ride with little structure. So get out of it what you want, if that's to hammer then hammer, if that is to sit in and sprint ... As long as you arn't doing anything dangerous shouldn't be a problem.

So, when I take my turn at the front, and gradually ramp it up to a good hard clip, I flick the elbow to indicate the international sign for "come around me, damn it." Only the person next to me decides that he isn't going to give me some draft, but ride next to me. Now, I am not part of this club, so maybe this is the standard format. Maybe everyone pulls with someone next to them until they feel like pulling off, rotation be damned.

Sounds to me like the guy did exactly what he was supposed to. You gave an elbow flick that you were pulling off, and he took his pull at the front maintaining the same pace as you. He was probably wondering why you weren't slowing to fall back in line or giving him room to pull over at the end of his pull. How would your model work? Everyone speeds up to pass the former lead rider until what? No one can come around any more or the group reaches the speed of light?

I'm wondering if part of it might be due to the end of the racing season. Our group rides have gotten slower. Many guys aren't attacking and pulling as strong and as frequently as they used to. There's an unspoken ethic that you can do what you want, but don't be surprised if not everyone is as eager to work as hard as they did a month ago. A lot of us just aren't interested in hammering right now.

Sounds to me like the guy did exactly what he was supposed to. You gave an elbow flick that you were pulling off, and he took his pull at the front maintaining the same pace as you. He was probably wondering why you weren't slowing to fall back in line or giving him room to pull over at the end of his pull. How would your model work? Everyone speeds up to pass the former lead rider until what? No one can come around any more or the group reaches the speed of light?

+1. I was wondering the same thing.

I'll typically give the elbow flick not to announce "come around me", but to announce "I'm pulling off". I then shift left or right (depending on which way we're rotating), and soft pedal as the group goes by.

Not sure what the OP's issue was, but if he was feeling all pissy and strong he should have had the stones to just attack the group and be done with it.

Here's the problem:

I was at the front, we were riding two wide. Around 20-30 people there. Wind coming from the right, not too strong, but a decent breeze. I was on the right. Decent pace, around 23-24mph.

I tried to pull off, and have either both people behind us come up, OR the guy pulling with me, to my left, swing over as I moved back and start a rotation. Pick your poison.

When I flicked my elbow, and drifted over, slowed down, then drifted over some more, then stopped pedalling...nothing happened. No one moved. No one moved up, no one moved over to start a rotation.

I might have unrealistic expectations sometimes, but I can't help but assume that these guys would know how to work a basic paceline of some sort. Two at the front break off and flow down the outside, or rotating. Not too hard.

They just simply refused to do it.

I'm wondering if part of it might be due to the end of the racing season. Our group rides have gotten slower. Many guys aren't attacking and pulling as strong and as frequently as they used to. There's an unspoken ethic that you can do what you want, but don't be surprised if not everyone is as eager to work as hard as they did a month ago. A lot of us just aren't interested in hammering right now.

I think this is the most reasonable explanation.

It's weird how some guys just won't work. There's a few in our group ride that will skip 4-5 pulls and the 6th when everyone is hurting and they're fresh - they drill it up the road like they had it all along. I hate that. Seems like alot of guys don't like rotating pacelines because of this. Don't know if that's the reason.

^^^^^^^^^^^
man I love when this happens, topped off with a look over the shoulder like "geez do I have to wait for you".

We have a local group ride/training ride at the same location as a crit that we hold and most people use it as a time to drill it and work on a 25+ paceline. One guy pedals around at 15mph and then jumps in on the last lap to make one sprint after everyone else has been at threashold for an hour. Big man.

" .... You gave an elbow flick that you were pulling off, and he took his pull at the front maintaining the same pace as you. He was probably wondering why you weren't slowing to fall back in line or giving him room to pull over at the end of his pull. ..."

That's what I was thinking too ... you should have slowed down more after your pull. A lot of training ride pacelines don't work well just because of diffferent experience levels. On our rides, I can't get too mad because some guys just honestly don't know what they're doing ... they don't mean to be jerks.

Personally, I don't like the elbow flicks unless absolutely necessary. When a rider pulls over, then I pull through. I don't need to be told.

I'll typically give the elbow flick not to announce "come around me", but to announce "I'm pulling off". I then shift left or right (depending on which way we're rotating), and soft pedal as the group goes by.




I thought the elbow flick was the international signal for "pull through"?

It's weird how some guys just won't work. There's a few in our group ride that will skip 4-5 pulls and the 6th when everyone is hurting and they're fresh - they drill it up the road like they had it all along. I hate that. Seems like alot of guys don't like rotating pacelines because of this. Don't know if that's the reason.

TTs, the races of truth, here I come.

I thought the elbow flick was the international signal for "pull through"?

In a cooperative paceline, there should be no need for it. I only use it with guys who don't "get it", or for wheel suckers.

In a cooperative paceline, there should be no need for it. I only use it with guys who don't "get it", or for wheel suckers.

Yeah, the pull-out should be crisp enough as to not leave any question, but if I take a longer pull, or it's up a climb or something, I'll still flick just to be clear. Doesn't cost a dime. The pros do it often.

what exactly is half wheeling - I'll assume its overlapping wheels, but is it because your riding hard up someone's butt or so slow everyone behind you is bunching?

^^^^ Ride next to the victim, and stay 1/2 a wheel ahead of him. No matter what.

^^^^ Ride next to the victim, and stay 1/2 a wheel ahead of him. No matter what.

That describes it pretty well.

Half wheeling only occurs when you're at the front of the group, pulling. It doesn't have anything to do with speed. In my neck of the woods, it generally happens with a crosswind, when a stronger rider is on the windward side, and the weaker rider is forced to hide in his draft by riding next to him, but slightly behind him, usually 6-12". Half a wheel behind the other guy pulling. Hence "half wheeling".

Half wheeling only occurs when you're at the front of the group, pulling. It doesn't have anything to do with speed. In my neck of the woods, it generally happens with a crosswind, when a stronger rider is on the windward side, and the weaker rider is forced to hide in his draft by riding next to him, but slightly behind him, usually 6-12". Half a wheel behind the other guy pulling. Hence "half wheeling".

That would be an echelon (a good thing to know). Half wheeling is when a group is riding in two lines and the lead rider in one always moves to be a half-wheel ahead of the other. The second rider, trying to keep the lines even speeds up to match the other who again moves ahead by another half wheel. The pace keeps going up until the pacesline is totally disrupted.

I'm wondering if part of it might be due to the end of the racing season. Our group rides have gotten slower. Many guys aren't attacking and pulling as strong and as frequently as they used to. There's an unspoken ethic that you can do what you want, but don't be surprised if not everyone is as eager to work as hard as they did a month ago. A lot of us just aren't interested in hammering right now.

If this is true (and it may be) then you sit at the back. When the guy who just pulled drifts back, you open a gap for him in front of you. If he still doesn't get it just tell him ,"In", or, "Your wheel".

I find it irritating when guys who don't want to work rotate through and then just pull off at the front or slow down or do anything other than pull. It disrupts the group and creates situations where braking may be required followed by a surge...and we all know what this leads to...

That would be an echelon (a good thing to know). Half wheeling is when a group is riding in two lines and the lead rider in one always moves to be a half-wheel ahead of the other. The second rider, trying to keep the lines even speeds up to match the other who again moves ahead by another half wheel. The pace keeps going up until the pacesline is totally disrupted.

Oh, thanks, I was going to ask what an echelon was in my next P/1/2 race...

In this case, I didn't have to drive the pace up, as the person next to me was struggling to maintain position due to both the speed and the slight crosswind. He kept trying to move up next to me, but couldn't maintain it for very long each time.

So a bit of echelon-ing, and halfwheeling in that he kept on making efforts to pull up, then drift back a bit, over and over. Also, there was no actual echelon formed out behind us; not enough wind to really make that necessary if you were in the draft already.

Oh, thanks, I was going to ask what an echelon was in my next P/1/2 race...

Your welcome. No problem.

I'm confused here.

You go on a ride you don't normally go on?
You find it too slow so you ask and get the go ahead to do whatever?
You ramp up the pace?
You pull off and the next rider doesn't maintain your pace?
You then half wheel him instead of slipping back and letting the ride settle back into it's natural pace?
You keep half wheeling every rider until some kids decide they want to ride as fast as you and take up your pace?

You sound like you were being an ass. If you thought the ride was too slow it was your job to sit on the front and speed it up not ramp up and expect the rest of the group to do whatever you suits your training plan.

I'm confused here.

You go on a ride you don't normally go on?
You find it too slow so you ask and get the go ahead to do whatever?
You ramp up the pace?
You pull off and the next rider doesn't maintain your pace?
You then half wheel him instead of slipping back and letting the ride settle back into it's natural pace?
You keep half wheeling every rider until some kids decide they want to ride as fast as you and take up your pace?

You sound like you were being an ass. If you thought the ride was too slow it was your job to sit on the front and speed it up not ramp up and expect the rest of the group to do whatever you suits your training plan.

I did sit at the front, and increased the pace. I fail to see how the two bolded terms are different. Some people decided to sit next to me, and not pull through. I gave the people next to me as well behind me seeral opportunities to pull through, to either start a rotation or have both riders at the front fall back down the sides. They were free to sit behind and enjoy the ride, pull through like I requested several times, or suffer next to me. They chose the last option. Is that my fault?

It's a race training ride. It's usually a somewhat hard ride, as I have experienced on the tuesday night version. I was told it would be much of the same by a rider, and is advertised on the club website as such as well. The pace of a training ride doesn't magically increase; someone has to make the conscious decision to crank it up. I decided that person would be me. Does that make me an ass? Do I have to ask, "Please, sirs, may increase the pace from 22 miles per hour to 24 miles per hour with my next pull?"

I did sit at the front, and increased the pace.

And then you pulled off. If you wanted the pace to stay high and it was clear others didn't you should have got back on the front not half wheeled.



It's a race training ride. It's usually a somewhat hard ride, as I have experienced on the tuesday night version. I was told it would be much of the same by a rider, and is advertised on the club website as such as well. The pace of a training ride doesn't magically increase; someone has to make the conscious decision to crank it up. I decided that person would be me. Does that make me an ass? Do I have to ask, "Please, sirs, may increase the pace from 22 miles per hour to 24 miles per hour with my next pull?"

different nights = different rides. And as rides morph information you get may be out of date. I thought you did ask before your pull? If so that was respectful but you shouldn't be surprised when others would just as rather let the pace drop to what they were riding at before.

The point is that if the ride is moving at one pace and you would like it to move at a faster one the onus is on you not only to ramp up the speed but to keep pulling if the rest of the group is happy at the slower pace. When the next rider doesn't pull though at the speed you want you should get back on the front and keep pulling or drift back and let it slow down. Expecting everyone to ride exactly as hard as you want and trying to enforce it by half wheeling sounds like a dick move. ESPECIALLY on your first time on a given ride. But I'm still not clear on what exactly happened.

And then you pulled off. If you wanted the pace to stay high and it was clear others didn't you should have got back on the front not half wheeled.



I attempted to, as I think I've stated pretty clearly. In order to half wheel someone, you HAVE to be on the front. I flicked my elbow, indicating I wanted to drop back, several times, and even stopped pedalling completely once. I moved completely over to the right, as far as was safe, to allow people to pass. They simply refused to pull through. Then, again, as clearly stated, I remained on the front, as I was not given the room or opportunity to drop back, and kept the pace high.

It's not my fault if and when I want to pull off, people don't come around. That's on them.
It is also not my fault if the same people who refuse to start a rotation can't handle the pace. They were given an opportunity to both go faster AND make it easier on themselves and yet refused. These same people later attacked and tried to take townline sprints, etc.

Member Stea1thViper, who I went to school with and rode with frequently last year, can attest that I am a pleasant person to ride with. I am often criticized for being TOO nice during race situations, pulling for longer than necessary, letting people have wheels they don't deserve, not gapping people off when I could.

It's not my fault if and when I want to pull off, people don't come around. That's on them.
It is also not my fault if the same people who refuse to start a rotation can't handle the pace. They were given an opportunity to both go faster AND make it easier on themselves and yet refused. These same people later attacked and tried to take townline sprints, etc.


Well thats just strange then

Sounds like the old "this group ride is a race" mentality where people want to suck wheel and sprint around you for town signs and crap like that. When that happens, I just go to the front and pull and let the wheel suckers do what they want. I do group training rides for TRAINING, not for bragging rights about "winning" a group ride.

I am training. My sprint. On the town signs.

Don't take it personally.

I am training. My sprint. On the town signs.

Don't take it personally.

Exactly. On a ride like that you can do what like. Need tempo work? Go up and pull the train for a couple miles. Need interval work? Attack off the front, get caught, do it again. Need sprint work? Go for the county line sign. Just don't half-wheel me, swerve, hit your brakes, hock a loogie, etc. (Or we're going to yell at you.)

This sounds like a ride where everyone had their own agenda. Duke and a few others wanted to ride hard and keep the pace high, others just wanted to sit in and go for the sprints and some others just wanted to sit it period. In some ways, it sounds just like several races I've been in where I get to the front but others refuse to increase the pace and would rather just cruise. Everyone had their own goals and expected the ride to unfold accordingly. When I find myself in Duke's position I either go with the flow and fall back in or attack and see if anyone goes with me.

Just think of the perspective of the others who were on the ride, they're probably saying right now, "who was that <expletive> that showed up last thursday, hammered at the front where we normally warm up, then blew up and half wheeled everyone for a while, then had nothing at the town line signs we always sprint for..."

IME, every ride has its own rythm. When you're the new guy to the ride, even if you're more experienced and skilled than the others in the group, IMO it's up to you to either integrate and follow suit, or ride away and do your own thing.

Exactly. On a ride like that you can do what like. Need tempo work? Go up and pull the train for a couple miles. Need interval work? Attack off the front, get caught, do it again. Need sprint work? Go for the county line sign. Just don't half-wheel me, swerve, hit your brakes, hock a loogie, etc. (Or we're going to yell at you.)

+1 (and +1)

There are plenty of ways to get a work-out in a slow unorganized group ride. For example, sit on the back and physically push the slower riders up every hill so they don't get dropped. OR.... go to the back, stop, take your rear wheel off, put it back on, chase, catch, repeat.

Or you can be the guy who attacks a group ride and proceeds to ride the entire route solo.

Just think of the perspective of the others who were on the ride, they're probably saying right now, "who was that <expletive> that showed up last thursday, hammered at the front where we normally warm up, then blew up and half wheeled everyone for a while, then had nothing at the town line signs we always sprint for..."

IME, every ride has its own rythm. When you're the new guy to the ride, even if you're more experienced and skilled than the others in the group, IMO it's up to you to either integrate and follow suit, or ride away and do your own thing.

If any of that were the case, I wouldn't be posting this thread. If someone had crushed me later on in the ride, I would know what their reasoning for holding back early was, and this thread wouldn't exist.

The problem was that later on in the ride, everything operated as usual. People rotated, took reasonable pulls, 6 of us got away in a "break", regrouped at an intersection, we contested town line sprints, etc. It just took a while to get started, for some reason. Usually, after the general warm up period, people hit it hard.

Again, as stated, I've done this ride before.

It meets on Tues/Thurs, and both run on whichever one of two routes the group decides to do.

I was told, by several people, both before (2) and during the ride (1), that it's the same as the Tuesday nighter.

I really wish people would comprehend that.

I'm not new to the group or to the ride, I just normally do another ride, either group or solo, on Thursdays.

+1 (and +1)

There are plenty of ways to get a work-out in a slow unorganized group ride. For example, sit on the back and physically push the slower riders up every hill so they don't get dropped. OR.... go to the back, stop, take your rear wheel off, put it back on, chase, catch, repeat.

Or you can be the guy who attacks a group ride and proceeds to ride the entire route solo.

Or you could practice important stuff. Like making a good flat tire sound effects, or learning to click your brake lever perfectly in time with the cranks on the rider in front of you.

The problem was that later on in the ride, everything operated as usual. People rotated, took reasonable pulls, 6 of us got away in a "break", regrouped at an intersection, we contested town line sprints, etc. It just took a while to get started, for some reason. Usually, after the general warm up period, people hit it hard.

.

Late season burnout ???

Solo? No anger.
No frustration, no ego.
Suffering alone.

When you rotate into the lead position it is not your job to "ramp it up". It is not your job to maintain speed either. It is to maintain the current level of effort. When some dick head gets on the front and jumps we just tell him to take it easy Rambo. Or just let him go.

...click your brake lever perfectly in time with the cranks on the rider in front of you.

Devious. I can't wait to try it.

Personally, I spend my time trying to pinch rocks under my tires to make them fly up into the spokes of other riders.

Devious. I can't wait to try it.

Another good one is to blow through your lips to make a loud psssssssssssss sound, then flick your lips with a finger to make it sound like a leak going around a spinning wheel... then attack.

Of course I'll never forget the elite rider telling the other racers that he was about to attack. Then, he pulled his shorts down around his saddle, and pedaled off. He, umm, got away.

When you rotate into the lead position it is not your job to "ramp it up". It is not your job to maintain speed either. It is to maintain the current level of effort. When some dick head gets on the front and jumps we just tell him to take it easy Rambo. Or just let him go.

It depends on the group...for "race training" there's a certain amount of "friskiness", "attacking", and "putting the hurt on" that's considered acceptable.

I think the OP screwed up by half-wheeling and trying to badger the other riders. He should have just attacked them and seen who went with him.

When you rotate into the lead position it is not your job to "ramp it up". It is not your job to maintain speed either. It is to maintain the current level of effort. When some dick head gets on the front and jumps we just tell him to take it easy Rambo. Or just let him go.

So when the attacks started shortly after I ramped up the pace of the ride and pulled off, i.e. gave it a kick in the seat of the pants, I should have politely requested that they restrain themselves?

"Please, good sirs, do not accelerate so hard, that is not proper."

Dude, it's a hard ride. I don't know about you, or SoCal, but that means picking up the speed at some point. Riding at 20mph isn't going to do anything for anyone.

Yeah if the guy wamts to go , go. See if any one wants to chase . If not let them go . They wont last long by themselves. Oh, and twenty is for grannies. If you cant hang at 25 dont eeven come. And you better be able to stick at 30, or you will eventually be dropped.

I thought the elbow flick was the international signal for "pull through"?

Yeah, but "pull through" doesn't equate to "accellerate", it just means maintain the current pace while the guy (or gal) in front slows and fades back. A smooth paceline is a good paceline.

Dude, it's a hard ride. I don't know about you, or SoCal, but that means picking up the speed at some point. Riding at 20mph isn't going to do anything for anyone.


Oh, and twenty is for grannies. If you cant hang at 25 dont eeven come. And you better be able to stick at 30, or you will eventually be dropped.

Ahhh... the internet: the only place people insult each other even when they're agreeing.

Yeah if the guy wamts to go , go. See if any one wants to chase . If not let them go . They wont last long by themselves. Oh, and twenty is for grannies. If you cant hang at 25 dont eeven come. And you better be able to stick at 30, or you will eventually be dropped.

I don't get what you're saying...

Is this to me, or is this addressing the "group ride crowd" in general?

When you rotate into the lead position it is not your job to "ramp it up". It is not your job to maintain speed either. It is to maintain the current level of effort. When some dick head gets on the front and jumps we just tell him to take it easy Rambo. Or just let him go.

in Duke's case that's just simply wrong. the only time you would do this I'd imagine is in a group ride with a no drop policy. as clearly been stated several times, it was a hard ride. i find it incredible how many people on these forums are not familiar with the term "hard ride."

and yes ive ridden with Duke several times, and he is def not the type to be pulling "dick" moves in the wrong situations on group rides.

An acceleration at the front (or anywhere for that matter) is an attack and should be tactically considered as such. There are no rules or etiquete. I did not intentionally insult anyone. My inabillity to accurately express myself is at fault and my resposibillity.