Spend a week sitting in your car???

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ctyler

Amazing what people put up with because they can't figure out how to get to work without a car. I saw this story on the Madison, Wisconsin, newspaper web site and the local response was the following:

"He said state and regional governments are looking at several short- and long-term solutions, such as increasing the number of ramp meters on the Beltline, re-engineering the interchanges to increase the traffic flow and looking for funds to increase lanes on strained highways."

Increasing lanes never works.

There has been talk about a regional light rail, but it's needed now, not in 10 years. And again, people don't want to pay for it. But they'll pay for more roads. How stupid can you be?

genec

Here's more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070918/us_nm/traffic_usa_study_dc_1

Couple of key points: "What causes congestion? In a word, 'you.' Most of the Mojave Desert is not congested," wrote report authors David Schrank, associate research scientist, and Tim Lomax, research engineer.

In the last 20 years, travel has increased by 105 percent in metropolitan areas but road capacity -- measured by freeways and major thoroughfares -- has only risen 45 percent.

And then this classic conclusion... Solving the problem not only includes focusing on "critical" corridors and easing choke points but making work schedules more flexible and building more areas where people can walk to work, the study said.

Gee, I guess the concept of "bicycles" never occurred to these guys... :rolleyes:

Roughstuff

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070918/ap_on_re_us/traffic_congestion

The real news is that they seem to not be able to figure out how to relieve traffic congestion... I guess no one thought of putting folks on bikes instead of road hogging cars... D'OH!

Whats worse than spending a week sitting in a car? A week sitting in a bus...so lets devolve ourselves of the fantasy that mass transit is an alternative to auto travel. In Japan, one of those places where massies go ga-ga over its train and subway systems, many cars now have mini-television and sound systems to entertain their riders for multi hour commutes.

How much more fun it is to ride a bike and sing! :)

roughstuff

Scummer

Not only do you sit a week in your car, but your big, fat 6liter 8 cylinder 450horsepower huge-ass SUV is guzzling the money out of your pocket while you sit idling on the road.

genec

Not only do you sit a week in your car, but your big, fat 6liter 8 cylinder 450horsepower huge-ass SUV is guzzling the money out of your pocket while you sit idling on the road.

And doing it's part to darken the skies with all those hydrocarbons... sigh.

Roughstuff

And doing it's part to darken the skies with all those hydrocarbons... sigh.

Yeah..i notice the skies in Pittsburgh, Detroit, Los Angeles, and London are just so much darker now than they used to be back in the 1950s, back when men were men, sheep were nervous, manufacturing was king, and there was far fewer cars on the road. Bring back the good old days!

roughstuff

genec

noisebeam

I spend that much time if not more every year sitting/standing at the toilet.
Al

eubi

Yeah..i notice the skies in Pittsburgh, Detroit, Los Angeles, and London are just so much darker now than they used to be back in the 1950s, back when men were men, sheep were nervous, manufacturing was king, and there was far fewer cars on the road. Bring back the good old days!

Absolutely false for LA. We have more clear days in LA than we ever had...with many more cars! :D

I remember the smog being so bad in the early 70's that sometimes you couldn't see two blocks. Now I can see the mountains on most days.

...and, I drive in this mess every day. Well, actually I carpool in it every day.

genec pulls out the key points:

1. More and more people move here.
2. We build homes a lot faster then we build roads.

The traffic in LA-Orange-Riverside-San Bernardino Counties, in my opinion, is the biggest detriment to the quality of life here. Many times I just prefer to stay home instead of going out.

I heard a factoid on the radio this morning. Right now, the average number of occupants per car in So CA is 1.1. IF the occupany rate was increased to only 1.3, there would be no congestion. Not sure about that, but it's an interesting number.

Not sure if that includes bike commuters in the mix. Probably not, and the low numbers of bike commuters probably wouldn't have a big effect anyway.

And I focus on cars, because for some of us, cycling to work is not an option. Niether is public transportation. For the distances and hours we work, we are stuck with our cars.

For the record, there are three of us in my carpool. I cycle from my house to the Park and Ride.

noisebeam

OK sigh... they don't "darken the skies,"

Perhaps they (particulates) do:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sun/

Al

Roughstuff

OK sigh... they don't "darken the skies," they fill it with invisible gases that convert to acid rain and smog, and while certainly we don't have the coal blackened skies of the past, we're still breathing whatever spews out of all those tailpipes.

OK...sigh....having lost THAT ARGUMENT, on to the next .. (the luddite law of whining.)

Are you aware of the fact that the quantity of monoxides, ozones, and unburned hyrdocarbons is now FAR LESS than it was in the 1970s?

roughstuff

Roughstuff

...I heard a factoid on the radio this morning. Right now, the average number of occupants per car in So CA is 1.1. IF the occupany rate was increased to only 1.3, there would be no congestion. Not sure about that, but it's an interesting number.

All they need to do to change this is to allow anyone to act as a taxi and collect a fee from a passenger if they give them a ride to their destination. OF COURSE you'll never see these 'gypsy cabs' because local governments are cowed by Mass Transit unions (who would lose business) and the loss of Taxi license revenues. Another two reasons why i distrust mass transit.

roughstuff

dobber

Earlier this year I had the pleasure of driving 6 hrs every Monday & Friday to get to my off-site work.

That's 36 work days doing nothing but pushing the pedal and turning a wheel. After the first couple times though, I turned it into something much more productive. I'd use the down bound time to plan out my week, the trip back to review what happened. Also got pretty good at using the phone, found I could get wireless access at the Thruway stops.

And I caught up on a lot of literature via books on tape.

Would still have rather been on the bike though.

GreenGrasshoppr

Whats worse than spending a week sitting in a car? A week sitting in a bus...

I came here to say this.

One of my friends once commented on the aggravation of sitting in a bus congested with people, which was itself on a street congested with other vehicles.

While it's a pipe dream to get everyone to ride a bike, I think it would be feasible to get everyone in a small to medium city to ride electric golfcarts - cleaner vehicle, slower speeds means streets are safer for peds and cyclists, more parking room for everyone, etc.

noisebeam

I really enjoyed riding the bus to work. A time to relax, read. It did take quite a bit longer than cycling and was less 'fun' which is why I gave it up.
Al

caloso

The Bee ran the same story this morning. (http://www.sacbee.com/101/story/386834.html)I suppose every paper in the country has printed one version or another of it. I thought about writing a letter to the editor extolling the virtues of bike commuting (especially for our flat and mild weather city) but couldn't figure out a way to write it without lecturing or gloating.

genec

OK...sigh....having lost THAT ARGUMENT, on to the next .. (the luddite law of whining.)

Are you aware of the fact that the quantity of monoxides, ozones, and unburned hyrdocarbons is now FAR LESS than it was in the 1970s?

roughstuff

Are you aware that there are many more cars out there spewing monoxides, ozones, and unburned hyrdocarbons... have you read the article? Did you notice the part where travel by auto has increased 105% but the available hiway pavement has only increased 45%, so all these vehicles are just sitting there putting out exhaust?

Care to draw any conclusions to that... or do you want to wait until the amount of traffic has increased to 200% and the results of "monoxides, ozones, and unburned hyrdocarbons" in idling cars IS quite visible?

eubi

All they need to do to change this is to allow anyone to act as a taxi and collect a fee from a passenger if they give them a ride to their destination. OF COURSE you'll never see these 'gypsy cabs' because local governments are cowed by Mass Transit unions (who would lose business) and the loss of Taxi license revenues. Another two reasons why i distrust mass transit.

Many of the larger companies here run vanpools.

Sorry, I'm not sure exactly how they work. I mean, do they go from the park and rides to the company? Do you have to WORK at the company? pay a fee? Do you rotate as drivers (you have to have a CA commercial license to drive these vans)?

The ones I see filling up at the park and ride are full up with 8 to 11 persons.

Another solution is that my company went to a 10hr - four day week. YAY! I don't have to drive on Friday...unless I have to work overtime...which I usually do :(

ovoleg

Here's more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070918/us_nm/traffic_usa_study_dc_1

Couple of key points:

And then this classic conclusion...

Gee, I guess the concept of "bicycles" never occurred to these guys... :rolleyes:

wow you are ignorant...do you know how far people work in LA? 30miles to work...

Scummer

30 miles commuting is certainly possible. I commute 29 miles with the bicycle one way. Takes me 2 hours one way and I'm sure it would take just as long with the car in LA traffic.

Bowcyclist

I spend that much time if not more every year sitting/standing at the toilet.
Al
http://constantlyconstipated.com/calc.html
I guess i've spent more than 5,000 hours on le throne.
I am a "king of solitutde"!

noisebeam

http://constantlyconstipated.com/calc.html
I guess i've spent more than 5,000 hours on le throne.
I am a "king of solitutde"!

I'm at 2476 lifetime hours and 67 hours per year.

Al

Roughstuff

Are you aware that there are many more cars out there spewing monoxides, ozones, and unburned hyrdocarbons... have you read the article? Did you notice the part where travel by auto has increased 105% but the available hiway pavement has only increased 45%, so all these vehicles are just sitting there putting out exhaust?

Care to draw any conclusions to that... or do you want to wait until the amount of traffic has increased to 200% and the results of "monoxides, ozones, and unburned hyrdocarbons" in idling cars IS quite visible?

The only unburned hydrocarbons I saw on my trip to boston last week was when (usually empty) buses spewed fumes every block pulling back into traffic.

Didn't need to read the article, that stuff is older news than Al Gore losing Florida. Alot more cars...but cleaner air in the cities, less carbon monoxide, less ozone, and no lead! Excuse me for being happy, I understand this is anathema for the loony left.

All this quibble about congestion. The CITIES are congested...and they are congested ONLY AT RUSH hours. So for a pittance of the whole country's surface, and a few hours in their day, the rest of us are supposed to get all warped and shell out a few trillion dollars. Sorry city slicker...no way.

roughstuff

roughstuff

ovoleg

30 miles commuting is certainly possible. I commute 29 miles with the bicycle one way. Takes me 2 hours one way and I'm sure it would take just as long with the car in LA traffic.

ok i realize that you have absolutely no logic so I will try to explain this to you.

THERE IS TRAFFIC ON THE ROAD AT 8:00. 30+ miles for a fat soccer mom or someone out of shape is HARD.

OK HARD.

dude when I first started cycling 10 miles was hard. YOU WANT PEOPLE TO COMMUTE 30 MILES IN TRAFFIC?

Wow you guys in the midwest are hilarious

evblazer

I spend that much time if not more every year sitting/standing at the toilet.
Al
I hope no one for the autolobby is reading this.. New for 2010 the GMC Yukon XL #2 with 8 individual toilets, privacy curtains and baby changing station.

noisebeam

The average commute distance in LA is ~16mi each way.
Al

Scummer

ok i realize that you have absolutely no logic so I will try to explain this to you.

THERE IS TRAFFIC ON THE ROAD AT 8:00. 30+ miles for a fat soccer mom or someone out of shape is HARD.

OK HARD.

dude when I first started cycling 10 miles was hard. YOU WANT PEOPLE TO COMMUTE 30 MILES IN TRAFFIC?

Wow you guys in the midwest are hilarious

Uhmm... I never said it was easy. No lifestyle change is ever easy. I just said it is possible. But you just simply mentioned that the stupid commute is 30 miles, and that means absolutely nothing in my opinion. It will take a few weeks to get used to a 30 mile commute but I stand by my opinion, it's doable and only cheap excuses or some kind of disability (BTW, i don't count most of the obese people as disabled as they have the power to change their future and the clyde/athena subforum certainly can support that observation) keeps someone from doing it.
Not only that, but the fat soccer mom would turn into a beautiful, attractive butterfly after she looses all the extra pounds and her life might be prolonged as well for not fattening up her heart muscle. Given she doesn't run to MickeyD's and considers some healthy food alternatives.

Oh, I also ride in traffic during my long commute and I'm still alive.

ovoleg

Uhmm... I never said it was easy. No lifestyle change is ever easy. I just said it is possible. But you just simply mentioned that the stupid commute is 30 miles, and that means absolutely nothing in my opinion. It will take a few weeks to get used to a 30 mile commute but I stand by my opinion, it's doable and only cheap excuses or some kind of disability (BTW, i don't count most of the obese people as disabled as they have the power to change their future and the clyde/athena subforum certainly can support that observation) keeps someone from doing it.
Not only that, but the fat soccer mom would turn into a beautiful, attractive butterfly after she looses all the extra pounds and her life might be prolonged as well for not fattening up her heart muscle. Given she doesn't run to MickeyD's and considers some healthy food alternatives.

Oh, I also ride in traffic during my long commute and I'm still alive.

I meant 30 miles using the freeway. California is also not flat...Go cross Sepulveda pass on your first ride(which follows the 405). If you are out of shape, fat, or just a soccer mom you will DIE halfway up that hill. Right around the turn where it hits 8%, GOOD LUCK. Oh take Mullholland instead...that'll be fun.

Don't forget when you go down Sepulveda at 35+mph, make sure you learn everything there is about a bike because we have plenty of debri along the way.

Also, don't forget all the different streets you have to turn on, because there are no freeway exits.

This isn't some flat state, we CANT commute by bike. The only people that do are experienced cyclist.

stuartjeff

I think the bigger problem to bike commuting is a lack of showers. Seriously, I bike commute but there is a shower in my office so I can clean up when I get here. I talk to people all the time who've said they'd like to ride to work but don't want to spend the day with road grime all over them.

genec

wow you are ignorant...do you know how far people work in LA? 30miles to work...

Gee thanks for the "compliment..." now go back and read the articles where the authors indicate that plans are being made to increase access to work by walking... that is their "solution."

And as far as everyone in LA... what, they ALL drive 30 miles?

noisebeam

read the articles where the authors indicate that plans are being made to increase access to work by walking... that is their "solution."

And as far as everyone in LA... what, they ALL drive 30 miles?

Exactly. What do you estimate are the % of commuters that have the right distance/fitness that could cycle commute instead of motor. I'd bet it is notably higher than the number of walkers.

Al

genec

The only unburned hydrocarbons I saw on my trip to boston last week was when (usually empty) buses spewed fumes every block pulling back into traffic.

Didn't need to read the article, that stuff is older news than Al Gore losing Florida. Alot more cars...but cleaner air in the cities, less carbon monoxide, less ozone, and no lead! Excuse me for being happy, I understand this is anathema for the loony left.

All this quibble about congestion. The CITIES are congested...and they are congested ONLY AT RUSH hours. So for a pittance of the whole country's surface, and a few hours in their day, the rest of us are supposed to get all warped and shell out a few trillion dollars. Sorry city slicker...no way.

roughstuff

roughstuff

Why shell out a trillion dollars... in that I agree, but bear in mind that the usual solution is to simply add more freeway lanes... like that has ever worked.

If you gotta pave something, why not devote 10% of the federal transit budget on a new plan, and try to improve walking and cycling as viable means of transit... rather then adding yet another lane to support a line of mostly empty cars.

4 bicycles can sit in the same space as one auto... why not look at alternative transit for once... rather than following blindly the same old failure model. Obviously we cannot build roads fast enough as it is... perhaps there might be a better way...

The EU is trying something "bold" (at least relative to our bike to work day )... they are promoting Friday Bikeday... every Friday. The idea being that perhaps people will actually enjoy cycling if they try it... and it is supported at the work place and by the government... they are trying to reduce congestion by suggesting an alternative.

Nah, let's just stick our heads in the sand.

evblazer

<snip>
This isn't some flat state, we CANT commute by bike. The only people that do are experienced cyclist.
Get a few people to ride more and more and they eventually become experienced cyslist. Will that mean they commute by bike now? Electric bikes have come a long way which could help some whether out of shape of with a disability. I ride with a disability I just need to do it a little slower then I could.
Even with an electric most couldn't do a 60 mile round trip but not everyone goes 60 miles, or 30 miles. There must be some people on the freeway or some of those sideroads just going a shorter way. For those that do go less and can ride a bike getting them on a bike means less cars.

I personally don't see it happening most places. A car is a right of passage a step stone to success.

ovoleg

dude you guys are so impractical its unbelievable.

We have drivethrough banks, fat a55 suv's and so on and you guys expect people to ride 30 miles by bike over hilly terrain?

LOL GOOD LOGIC

noisebeam

dude you guys are so impractical its unbelievable.

We have drivethrough banks, fat a55 suv's and so on and you guys expect people to ride 30 miles by bike over hilly terrain?

LOL GOOD LOGIC

The LOL GOOD LOGIC is on your part. No one has suggested that every commuter in LA switch to bicycle, nor has anyone said that everyone is expected to ride 30mi over hilly terrain.

The only suggestion was that bicycles should have noted as part of the solution. Someone else said that 30mi is possible, which does not mean practical for everyone.

Given that the average single direction commute distance in LA is ~16mi there is further opportunity for addtional commuting to be done on bicycle.

Al

genec

I personally don't see it happening most places. A car is a right of passage a step stone to success.

This is the key to Autocentricity in America... the car is a right of passage and the key to the kingdom.... The auto rules. Therefore anything else is simply "less."

The whole culture is built around the auto... from the history of Ford to the legends of cruising and drag racing in the '50s to "the back seat" and on to Detroit and "what's good for GM is good for the nation... " it's embedded in our culture.

No politician is going to buck that, and even Detroit is not willing to mess with that fantasy picture after the dismal failings of "small, efficient, auto" attempts of the '70s.

We as a nation are going to have to fall flat on our behinds before we see the light and try anything else... as cyclists, we will always be second class road users in the US... period.

The opposite does exist in some places... Finland is a beautiful example (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=343260)... and it is quite amazing, but in our lifetime here in the US... don't depend on seeing any such change... the motor car or something like it will rule for a lot longer... in spite of the obvious shortcomings. Just look at the attitudes displayed by what should be the most robust supporters of cycling, those here on BF (http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=5296721&postcount=20)... there are your prime examples of why car culture rules.

MrCjolsen

As much as we may wish it to be so, bikes are not really the answer to most traffic problems.

Most of us here on BF are unique in that we have the ability to travel long distances on a bicycle. However, much of the population does not have that ability and never will.

The real problem is that whenever new malls, office parks, housing developments or sports stadiums are built, nobody asks the question how will people get there by means other than a car?

Moreover, economics forces more and more people to live increasing distances from their workplaces. And it's not just those who move out to bedroom communities so they can afford oversized McMansions either.

Take Napa CA. for example. There are basically two roads that connect it to the Bay Area and one that connects it to the Central Valley. The congestion on those roads now rivals anything in Silicon Valley or the LA Region. In both directions, every day.

What you have are huge numbers of people who work in the wine and hospitality industry there who do not make enough money to even dream of renting or owning anything in the Napa Valley. At the same time, you also have huge numbers of people who can afford to live in Napa, but in order to do so, must commute to jobs in the Bay Area each day.

And here's the rub. As big as cycling is in Napa, the town itself is nearly impossible to bike to. It's not served by any type of rail mass transit and does not even have direct bus service to the nearest commuter rail - only about 20 miles away. I tried planning a car-free trip to visit my grandparents there this last summer, and found it impossible unless I wanted to make it a training ride for Foxy's Fall Century.

Ironically, every one of those congested roads in and out of Napa is paralelled by unused train tracks.

What's really needed is a massive influx of public investment in commuter rail to link communities like Elk Grove, Palmdale, Napa, Grass Valley and many others with the workplaces to which their residents presently drive each and every day.

"Rails to Trails" is a nice idea. However, many of those old rail lines need to be resurrected as commuter rail and used for the purpose which they were originally built.

ovoleg

genec

exactly my point with the beginning of the thread. You guys have unrealistic goals for most people out there.

I'm seriously doubting anything riding <6 months is going to be going down at 35mph on Sepulveda...and the climb is no joke, I'm young and when I first tried it...it burned and I barely made it over to the other side of the 8% grade.

My point is that "most people" still don't have to bike... get 10% of people out there biking and you have a 10% improvement in the congestion problem... only about 1% of all trips right now are by bike, 10% would be a huge improvement and still not involve "most people." 20% roughly the amount that supposedly bike in the Portland area, which would really make a nice improvement... and still not be "most people."

30% is a dream, but still not near the amount that typically bike in some countries.

You see the realty is that even a small change here can be a big improvement.

ovoleg

My point is that "most people" still don't have to bike... get 10% of people out there biking and you have a 10% improvement in the congestion problem... only about 1% of all trips right now are by bike, 10% would be a huge improvement and still not involve "most people." 20% roughly the amount that supposedly bike in the Portland area, which would really make a nice improvement... and still not be "most people."

30% is a dream, but still not near the amount that typically bike in some countries.

You see the realty is that even a small change here can be a big improvement.

I think another thing to note to your theory is that if congestion improves by the 9% that have now taken up biking, the people using vanpool and such will see a clearing in congestion and take it as a sign that it is ok to drive again.

Man some people live in Santa Clarita and work in Santa Monica, thats over 3 hour drive in traffic.

genec

Man some people live in Santa Clarita and work in Santa Monica, thats over 3 hour drive in traffic.

That is their choice, not everybody does a 3 hour commute... that is my point.

ovoleg

That is their choice, not everybody does a 3 hour commute... that is my point.

not their choice man. Do you know the median home price in CA? Santa Claria is somewhat decent, most people have to live in Palmdale, Lancaster, Valencia...

Bro LA IS EXPENSIVE. Choice...Shmoice...moving is NOT easy.

genec

ovoleg

"Bro," I live in San Diego, 4 miles from the beach... give it a break.

you are comparing SD to santa monica?

you can't be serious....

1ply

not their choice man. Do you know the median home price in CA? Santa Claria is somewhat decent, most people have to live in Palmdale, Lancaster, Valencia...

Bro LA IS EXPENSIVE. Choice...Shmoice...moving is NOT easy.

Moving may not be easy, but three hours each way is STUPID.

Moving becomes a very viable option if these same people actually thought about their situation for 20 seconds. Hmm I can continue to drive SIX hours every day to my $20/hour job or I can move somewhere else and make $12/hour, still own the same house and be home with 30 minutes after leaving work.

It's all a tradeoff - how much is your life worth to you. Apparently in California, not much.

MarkS

I spend that much time if not more every year sitting/standing at the toilet.
Al
But you were doing something worthwhile, weren't you?

ovoleg

Moving may not be easy, but three hours each way is STUPID.

Moving becomes a very viable option if these same people actually thought about their situation for 20 seconds. Hmm I can continue to drive SIX hours every day to my $20/hour job or I can move somewhere else and make $12/hour, still own the same house and be home with 30 minutes after leaving work.

It's all a tradeoff - how much is your life worth to you. Apparently in California, not much.

dude people have family here...we aren't just going to move. Its much easier said than done.

I'm not about to leave my whole family behind so I can live in Nebraska and have a 10minute commute

1ply

dude people have family here...we aren't just going to move. Its much easier said than done.

I'm not about to leave my whole family behind so I can live in Nebraska and have a 10minute commute

But while living in Nebraska you would actually have MORE time to spend with said family. If you're spending 2-3 or more hours daily commuting you just KNOW that your family is there somewhere (probably in their cars) but to see them it's a special trip - just as it would be from Nebraska.

You're welcome to keep your nutty commute times. I don't care. But when those that count their driving in hours instead of minutes and WHINE about it, and about the gas prices AND about having no time to do anything because they have such a long drive, that's what irks me. It's all a choice. Nobody FORCES you to live where you do. Nobody FORCES you to take that job which happens to be 100 miles away. Hell, I wouldn't even consider a job that far since I don't like to live in a car and I do like having free time.

Maybe I'll use some of my free time to take a drive :D

Roughstuff

.... Just look at the attitudes displayed by what should be the most robust supporters of cycling, those here on BF (http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=5296721&postcount=20)... there are your prime examples of why car culture rules.

What complete foolishness. The fact that I ride doesn't mean I have to swallow some bike agenda blindly, any more than being Republican means I have to swallow all their agenda, or being gay means I have to swallow (poor word choice, I know ;) ) their agenda, or being a neocon means I have to subscribe to all their missives. When cyclists advocate reasonable measures (improved road shoulders, etc) I support their ideas. When they dish out childish slogans like "we don't block traffic, we are traffic", or when they let luddites and critical Mazzholes destroy the efforts of millions of cyclists over the past few decades, I dissent.

roughstuff