Foo - Career avenues for those with a PhD?

After seeing how utterly useless my BS in Math is, I was thinking about going back to sk00l. Unfortunately, I tend to space if the subject matter doesn't move at a fast enough pace, and my grades are mediocre at best, so I'll likely need to go to a California State uni for my MS since I've already taken most of the subject matter needed for the degree at the UC I went to. Aside from that, the CS system is nice since it's pretty much the same thing from the POV of a MS, but is wayyyyy cheaper. I was thinking about getting my MS in Math, and taking some MS level physics, CS, Chem, CogSci, etc(?) if I could worm my way in, to keep from getting too boreded. Now, the problem is, even if I get a MS in Math with some supporting classes and I'm able to get into a PhD program at a decent Uni, I may still end up with useless degree wrt to a career. What multidisciplinary career paths would require PhD level math coursework along with the current load? No more useless degrees for me, I needz to getz sum werkz. :o

What about a Masters' in some form of engineering? The mom of a grade school friend did that. She had a BS in Math with a teaching certificate. She couldn't find a job, so she got a Masters' in Industrial Operations Engineering. (There was work in that field in Detroit during the '90s.)

Flipping burgers.

Flipping burgers.

or IT.

same thing.

After seeing how utterly useless my BS in Math is, I was thinking about going back to sk00l. Unfortunately, I tend to space if the subject matter doesn't move at a fast enough pace, and my grades are mediocre at best, so I'll likely need to go to a California State uni for my MS since I've already taken most of the subject matter needed for the degree at the UC I went to. Aside from that, the CS system is nice since it's pretty much the same thing from the POV of a MS, but is wayyyyy cheaper. I was thinking about getting my MS in Math, and taking some MS level physics, CS, Chem, CogSci, etc(?) if I could worm my way in, to keep from getting too boreded. Now, the problem is, even if I get a MS in Math with some supporting classes and I'm able to get into a PhD program at a decent Uni, I may still end up with useless degree wrt to a career. What multidisciplinary career paths would require PhD level math coursework along with the current load? No more useless degrees for me, I needz to getz sum werkz. :o

Maybe you should take an English class first. :D

But seriously, think about what you'd like to do afterwards, before you commit to a PhD. Engineering? Nuclear physics? Research?

On another serious note: studying in Europe can cheap or free. Don't know about your chances with "mediocre" grades, though.

Maybe you should take an English class first. :D

But seriously, think about what you'd like to do afterwards, before you commit to a PhD. Engineering? Nuclear physics? Research?

On another serious note: studying in Europe can cheap or free. Don't know about your chances with "mediocre" grades, though.

correct.

I have a Masters in Mechanical Engineering...

SO...Specifically, what kind of math problems do you like to solve?

A route in physics will involve more theory and fewer practial applications as you would need to use in engineering.

Engineering will probably get you the most pay for the time you put in.

If you want to teach math at the university level, you will need a PhD. Be prepared to publish A LOT.

As one of my favorite engineering professors said during our Engineering Orientation for new students: "If you are looking to make a lot of money in engineering, then leave now, and go up the street to the business building."

I didn't take his advice...

So...see what kind of work you would be doing in economics...that's kind of the "physics" of business.

If you are good enough in math to be considering a PhD, I envy you :D

There are a lot of good career paths in several disciplines, if you have good math skillzorz. Look around and see what suits you.

I
As one of my favorite engineering professors said during our Engineering Orientation for new students: "If you are looking to make a lot of money in engineering, then leave now, and go up the street to the business building."


Some universities (or at least the University of Virginia) offer combined ME/MBA's. That could be an option.

Some universities (or at least the University of Virginia) offer combined ME/MBA's. That could be an option.

Excellent advice. Too many people also overlook the need for business training as well as management (including how to manage people). It's one thing being a technical expert but that gets you only so far. Business and people skills are needed to get past that initial level.

There's way too much emphasis placed on advanced degrees, especially if someone is just starting out in their career. The only reason I think pursuing a PhD makes sense is if someone wants to be a teacher.

The most practical route for most people is get some work experience and decide what type of occupation is for you. Most employers offer assistance with education so you can get a Master's of PhD on a part time basis with employer's financial help.

or IT.

same thing.

Except the money ;) I make a little more than 8$ an hour haha

You can get a Masters in Library Science like I (a current Math major) plan on doing.

I LOLed when you wrote "wrt"

As a PhD, I have to ask- why the hell do you want it? It's not just an "advanced masters" and it's definitely not necessarily a ticket to a high-paying career. In fact, the PhD is a liability for many- I know quite a few people who've actually hidden their doctorate so they'd get a (usually high-paying) job. The only thing a PhD is good for is getting you in the door to a job that actually requires one- generally in research, teaching,sometimes in industry-related R&D, etc. A PhD is essentially a union card for these types of jobs.

A couple of things (OK, four, actually) to keep in mind:
1. A PhD can be a very, very difficult thing to achieve, but not because of the the intellectual stuff. The coursework part is a snap, but when you're shopping for a dissertation subject and you have to deal with the politics within and outside of your department (and believe me, you will), it's a 10-mile 20% grade. It can be done, but it takes perseverance like you've never known before.
2. Pursuant to #1, the PhD rewards dogged persistence, not smarts. We're not brighter than anyone in particular, just not able or willing to give up.
3. Doing the PhD is a socialization process- every step of the way, from coursework, deciding on a topic, taking your qualifying exams, taking your oral exams, assembling a committee, defending your proposal, doing the research, writing the diss, and defending your diss, is all about making you substantively different from anyone else who's not going through it. It's very similar to professional school, but extremely different. medical and law school are about training- lots of skills acquisition, etc., whereas the PhD is about becoming an independent researcher.
4. Pursuant to #3, the PhD is a research degree. While we do pick up all sorts of arcane skills along the way, the fundamental characteristic of the doctorate is research and the philosophy of research (hence the Ph part). In reality, a PhD isn't needed to teach, even on the college level, but it is required, because nearly all of us have to support ourselves with research dollars, at least in the sciences, and especially in health sciences, which is where I am. I have to fund 90% of my salary with grants- only 10% comes from teaching, and this is very typical for medical school faculty.

All this said, if you are really, really committed to working in a career (note- not a job, but a career) that requires a PhD, by all means go for it. But before you invest four to seven years of blood, sweat, and (plenty of) tears in the process, make certain it's what you really want to do. And if you are certain, and you finish, be prepared for incredible competition to 1. get a job and 2. hold on to it. But also be prepared for what could be the most rewarding career you could imagine!

Good luck- if you want to talk more about this, PM me.

Meteorology (atmospheric modeling is complicated) or statistics.

It seems to me you are asking the wrong question. You should ask yourself "What do I want to do for the next thirty years?"

If you can figure that out, you will know the answer to the question about going back to school. Of course, many folks go back to schools to postpone having to answer the first question.

When I was in graduate school, lots of the students I talked to said they were there to figure out what they really wanted to do...an expensive place to think about the future, especially compared with the beach.

Geophysics

Except the money ;) I make a little more than 8$ an hour haha

I didn't, and I was doing network administration and programming.

Christ I was so taken advantage of right out of high school :(

What about a Masters' in some form of engineering?I was thinking about that, but based on my experience and observations, engineering, especially EE ;), was just mind numbing. I swear it felt like I was going to ITT. No in depth look at the material, it was mostly lab work involving some convoluted proprietary software. I ended up bouncing around between a few majors and settled on math because it was interesting and challenging, at least compared to everything else I had bothered with up to that point. In my undergrad analysis class there were two former/current engineering students, IIRC one had a PhD in CE and the other had a MS in EE, so it seems that engineering isn't very math heavy IME. But... This may just be something local?


On another serious note: studying in Europe can cheap or free. Don't know about your chances with "mediocre" grades, though.Reading comprehension newbz. Learnz it! ;) Like I said in my initial post, I will likely go to a CS to rehabilitate my grades and it isn't entirely unattractive since the cost of tuition is much lower. I've heard that Universities encourage cross pollination so to speak, but I believe my version of cheap or free may be less than yours. I'm also likely limited to the southern CA area, at least initially.


SO...Specifically, what kind of math problems do you like to solve?I tend to like Algebra and most of the related stuff, like Algebraic Geometry. Analysis and Topology were o.k. too, and pretty much anything else.


It seems to me you are asking the wrong question. You should ask yourself "What do I want to do for the next thirty years?I want to do something interesting and challenging while being able to do something besides flipping burgers. ;) Doesn't matter what, as long as it keeps me engaged.

Law degree? As a true bar member I am pretty sure its almost impossible to ever not find a job somewhere. It may not be with a big firm, but every company and organization needs an attorney to look over contracts.

Yes, its two years, and lots of memorization, but once you pass the bar and become a full fledged member, you can never not find a job, from what I know.

Circuit, math simulators. Formal verification of circuits is very math heavy. CS, algorithms research is again math. Computational fluid mechanics maybe?

But I personally found these things very slow, but loved EE :shrug:

As a PhD, I have to ask- why the hell do you want it? It's not just an "advanced masters" and it's definitely not necessarily a ticket to a high-paying career. In fact, the PhD is a liability for many- I know quite a few people who've actually hidden their doctorate so they'd get a (usually high-paying) job. The only thing a PhD is good for is getting you in the door to a job that actually requires one- generally in research, teaching,sometimes in industry-related R&D, etc. A PhD is essentially a union card for these types of jobs.

A couple of things (OK, four, actually) to keep in mind:
1. A PhD can be a very, very difficult thing to achieve, but not because of the the intellectual stuff. The coursework part is a snap, but when you're shopping for a dissertation subject and you have to deal with the politics within and outside of your department (and believe me, you will), it's a 10-mile 20% grade. It can be done, but it takes perseverance like you've never known before.
2. Pursuant to #1, the PhD rewards dogged persistence, not smarts. We're not brighter than anyone in particular, just not able or willing to give up.
3. Doing the PhD is a socialization process- every step of the way, from coursework, deciding on a topic, taking your qualifying exams, taking your oral exams, assembling a committee, defending your proposal, doing the research, writing the diss, and defending your diss, is all about making you substantively different from anyone else who's not going through it. It's very similar to professional school, but extremely different. medical and law school are about training- lots of skills acquisition, etc., whereas the PhD is about becoming an independent researcher.
4. Pursuant to #3, the PhD is a research degree. While we do pick up all sorts of arcane skills along the way, the fundamental characteristic of the doctorate is research and the philosophy of research (hence the Ph part). In reality, a PhD isn't needed to teach, even on the college level, but it is required, because nearly all of us have to support ourselves with research dollars, at least in the sciences, and especially in health sciences, which is where I am. I have to fund 90% of my salary with grants- only 10% comes from teaching, and this is very typical for medical school faculty.

All this said, if you are really, really committed to working in a career (note- not a job, but a career) that requires a PhD, by all means go for it. But before you invest four to seven years of blood, sweat, and (plenty of) tears in the process, make certain it's what you really want to do. And if you are certain, and you finish, be prepared for incredible competition to 1. get a job and 2. hold on to it. But also be prepared for what could be the most rewarding career you could imagine!

Good luck- if you want to talk more about this, PM me.

+ Eleventy billion

As the long-suffering husband of an ABD, I can say this is absolutely the best advice I've ever read about the PhD issue, especially re: politics.

Law degree? As a true bar member I am pretty sure its almost impossible to ever not find a job somewhere. It may not be with a big firm, but every company and organization needs an attorney to look over contracts.

Yes, its two years, and lots of memorization, but once you pass the bar and become a full fledged member, you can never not find a job, from what I know.


Pretty much. There's almost always work, though it may not always be too sexy.

However, I wouldn't go to law school just to go to law school. For starters, if you don't really want to be there, first semester will **** you up. Also, despite what most people seem to believe, the 'average' attorney does not get rich. It's a bell curve: a few at the bottom end, a bunch in the mid-five figures range, and a few at the top. Obviously, it depends on a range of factors, like whether you work in the public or private sphere, whether you're in a firm or solo, where you live, what field you practice in, etc...but, as one of my profs was fond of saying, if you really want to make money, become an investment banker.

This is similar to what I was told by other people. Something to look forward too. yey!

As a PhD, I have to ask- why the hell do you want it? It's not just an "advanced masters" and it's definitely not necessarily a ticket to a high-paying career. In fact, the PhD is a liability for many- I know quite a few people who've actually hidden their doctorate so they'd get a (usually high-paying) job. The only thing a PhD is good for is getting you in the door to a job that actually requires one- generally in research, teaching,sometimes in industry-related R&D, etc. A PhD is essentially a union card for these types of jobs.

A couple of things (OK, four, actually) to keep in mind:
1. A PhD can be a very, very difficult thing to achieve, but not because of the the intellectual stuff. The coursework part is a snap, but when you're shopping for a dissertation subject and you have to deal with the politics within and outside of your department (and believe me, you will), it's a 10-mile 20% grade. It can be done, but it takes perseverance like you've never known before.
2. Pursuant to #1, the PhD rewards dogged persistence, not smarts. We're not brighter than anyone in particular, just not able or willing to give up.
3. Doing the PhD is a socialization process- every step of the way, from coursework, deciding on a topic, taking your qualifying exams, taking your oral exams, assembling a committee, defending your proposal, doing the research, writing the diss, and defending your diss, is all about making you substantively different from anyone else who's not going through it. It's very similar to professional school, but extremely different. medical and law school are about training- lots of skills acquisition, etc., whereas the PhD is about becoming an independent researcher.
4. Pursuant to #3, the PhD is a research degree. While we do pick up all sorts of arcane skills along the way, the fundamental characteristic of the doctorate is research and the philosophy of research (hence the Ph part). In reality, a PhD isn't needed to teach, even on the college level, but it is required, because nearly all of us have to support ourselves with research dollars, at least in the sciences, and especially in health sciences, which is where I am. I have to fund 90% of my salary with grants- only 10% comes from teaching, and this is very typical for medical school faculty.

All this said, if you are really, really committed to working in a career (note- not a job, but a career) that requires a PhD, by all means go for it. But before you invest four to seven years of blood, sweat, and (plenty of) tears in the process, make certain it's what you really want to do. And if you are certain, and you finish, be prepared for incredible competition to 1. get a job and 2. hold on to it. But also be prepared for what could be the most rewarding career you could imagine!

Good luck- if you want to talk more about this, PM me.

Go to a terminal M.A. / M.S. program that funds its master's students. If you want to go on to a Ph.D. program after, you'll have the opportunity. After two years of grad school, you'll know whether or not it's the right thing to do and you'll have an advanced degree.

I want to do something interesting and challenging while being able to do something besides flipping burgers. ;) Doesn't matter what, as long as it keeps me engaged.

You can do that without a PhD.

To finish a PhD you have to really want to do it-- it's no fun a lot of the time, and for the most part doesn't open up new career opportunities except in a narrow area of research. Most people who drop out partway through don't leave because they can't do it, but because they decide they don't want to or that it isn't worth the obsession that you have to develop.

Funny. I have a degree in math and found it to be quite useful.

Funny. If I were you I wouldn't be asking because I would be you and not me. :p

You can do that without a PhD.

To finish a PhD you have to really want to do it-- it's no fun a lot of the time, and for the most part doesn't open up new career opportunities except in a narrow area of research. Most people who drop out partway through don't leave because they can't do it, but because they decide they don't want to or that it isn't worth the obsession that you have to develop.Yes. But, ime I'm far less likely to do something interesting. I don't mind developing obsessive interests because it's what I tend to do, otoh, repetitive and/or excessively slow activity drives me nuts. I don't know of any jobs I'm able to get that would be interesting/engaging given my background. If I don't want to bother with it, I'll have plenty of time upping my GPA/getting a Masters to come to that conclusion.

repetitive and/or excessively slow activity drives me nuts

Trust me... stay away from study toward a PhD. What do you think grad students doing research toward a PhD dissertation do all day long?

Meh? Just to clear this up for me, you're saying that grad research is analogous to flipping burgers, doing oil changes, stocking merchandise, moving freight, customer service, or other similar work in terms of repetitive behavior? I would hope that there's a bit more variability there, and based on what I've seen in Math and CogSci grad seminars/stuff this doesn't be the case (aside from TA'ing ;)), but I could be mistaken...

Seminars are months or years of hard work condensed into an hour of story telling. Research is 90% trying the same stuff over and over, with controlled changes to what you do. Interesting projects often take years of dealing with the same problem. If you're doing really interesting research, it often will move at a glacial pace.

Not to say that research sucks... I'm chasing after a career in research, after all. But there's a huge amount of behind the scenes hard work. For example, in my field, the hours that go into cleaning glassware will never make it into any publication, but it's critical work. And dreadfully boring when there's 100+ test tubes to scrub out and wash. My first 2.5 years of hard work with extremely long hours at the beginning of grad school are being totally written off, with not a single day of it being worth mentioning in my thesis. Doing kinetics experiments and dropping by the lab briefly at 2 AM and again at 5 AM to deal with a time point really sucks. (Happily, that's not the main thrust of my research.) Yet I consider my grad school experience so far to be an unconditional success.

I'm with bitingduck... don't plunge into a PhD program unless it's because you're truly passionate about what you'll be studying.

In my case, it's going to be a lot of experimentation, data collection, collation, statistical analysis, and writing. Very likely a teaching obligation as well.
Meh? Just to clear this up for me, you're saying that grad research is analogous to flipping burgers, doing oil changes, stocking merchandise, moving freight, customer service, or other similar work in terms of repetitive behavior? I would hope that there's a bit more variability there, and based on what I've seen in Math and CogSci grad seminars/stuff this doesn't be the case (aside from TA'ing ;)), but I could be mistaken...

The key is to find the right field for a PhD. I am a dept. chair in business at a big university. We pay 120K+ for 9 months to start and have an incredibly difficult time filling the positions. Annual compensation may be closer to 150-170. There is a tremendous shortage.

I am always amazed at the sheer lack of research that people do before they go to grad school. Just look where the shortages are and go there. Why do math when you could do finance and make the $$?

Why fill that academic position when if you have those abilities, you can make plenty in investment banking? (And in some cases even without an advanced degree.) The amount your position is paying is peanuts in comparison. I think most people in the lab I'm in could make more in other fields. And yes, we all know that. If I chose a career for love of money, it certainly wouldn't be what I'm doing now.

If you're doing really interesting research, it often will move at a glacial pace.Slow, sure... But there's no way it's as repetitive as the usual jobs/careers available. While cleaning 100 test tubes may not be the highlight of your day, I don't think it's nearly as repetitive or mind numbing as loading freight or taking orders for 8 hours a day. Weird hours may not be great, but they still aren't a graveyard shift, and no matter what, I'm betting you still have to think about most of what you do. AFAIK, most jobs involve picking up most of the material in a couple days/weeks/months and just repeating that for as long as you can stand it. Is grad work inconvenient? Sure. Likely slow if we want instant gratification. But I cannot for the life of me see how grad school isn't a ton more interesting than the current job market.

Seminars are months or years of hard work condensed into an hour of story telling. Research is 90% trying the same stuff over and over, with controlled changes to what you do. Interesting projects often take years of dealing with the same problem. If you're doing really interesting research, it often will move at a glacial pace.

Not to say that research sucks... I'm chasing after a career in research, after all. But there's a huge amount of behind the scenes hard work. For example, in my field, the hours that go into cleaning glassware will never make it into any publication, but it's critical work. And dreadfully boring when there's 100+ test tubes to scrub out and wash. My first 2.5 years of hard work with extremely long hours at the beginning of grad school are being totally written off, with not a single day of it being worth mentioning in my thesis. Doing kinetics experiments and dropping by the lab briefly at 2 AM and again at 5 AM to deal with a time point really sucks. (Happily, that's not the main thrust of my research.) Yet I consider my grad school experience so far to be an unconditional success.

I'm with bitingduck... don't plunge into a PhD program unless it's because you're truly passionate about what you'll be studying.

JSchen speaks wisely. My ex used to have to culture bacteria which had to be checked at regular intervals which meant, at times, waking up in the middle of the night to check on them. Grad research isnt all glitz, its a lot of grunt work and eventually some glory.

Edit: 2 semesters of a research assistantship had me convinced that a phd wasnt for me, so take my words with a pinch salt.

Slow, sure... But there's no way it's as repetitive as the usual jobs/careers available. While cleaning 100 test tubes may not be the highlight of your day, I don't think it's nearly as repetitive or mind numbing as loading freight or taking orders for 8 hours a day. Weird hours may not be great, but they still aren't a graveyard shift, and no matter what, I'm betting you still have to think about most of what you do. AFAIK, most jobs involve picking up most of the material in a couple days/weeks/months and just repeating that for as long as you can stand it. Is grad work inconvenient? Sure. Likely slow if we want instant gratification. But I cannot for the life of me see how grad school isn't a ton more interesting than the current job market.

Fair enough. And if you want to be forced to constantly think really hard about what you're doing, a career in research is great for that. Just carefully consider what the others have had to say. If you still want to do a PhD, go for it. I'm having a great time in grad school. (But didn't always feel this way. If you dig around, you probably can find dozens of posts where I complain like crazy and want to quit.) Research isn't a career path for everyone, but for some people, we can't imagine doing something else.

Why fill that academic position when if you have those abilities, you can make plenty in investment banking? (And in some cases even without an advanced degree.) The amount your position is paying is peanuts in comparison. I think most people in the lab I'm in could make more in other fields. And yes, we all know that. If I chose a career for love of money, it certainly wouldn't be what I'm doing now.

If you had been in investment banking (which I have) you would not ask that question. You choose this because you would like to live in an academic community, without the relentless pressure that big business brings. You would like to work with students, do research, and all the other things that all academics do. Silly comparison. All academics do the same basic job. I could easily triple my salary, but why? Now I get to ride in the afternoon.

If you had been in investment banking (which I have) you would not ask that question. You choose this because you would like to live in an academic community, without the relentless pressure that big business brings. You would like to work with students, do research, and all the other things that all academics do. Silly comparison. All academics do the same basic job. I could easily triple my salary, but why? Now I get to ride in the afternoon.

Translation Quality of life is >$ ;)

I agree with this philosophy wholeheartedly, by the way :)

Translation Quality of life is >$ ;)

I agree with this philosophy wholeheartedly, by the way :)

Yeah, and with this particular field I can still maintain a very nice standard of living. It is all about balance. And I'm real attached to the beach house. Good riding down there.

It is all about balance.

I certainly would agree with that. Different people may have different ideas about balance, but it is about finding a balance between all one's needs and desires.

I certainly would agree with that. Different people may have different ideas about balance, but it is about finding a balance between all one's needs and desires.

I was at a major research school for a few years, but it became evident that I didn't want to do that. I've been at a mid major for 16 years now and have found my niche. Being a chair is an interesting change. It's all good.

I wouldn't want to discourage people from certain tracks, but I have seen so many people disappointed when they finally recognize the reality of academics.

My training partner has degrees from Harvard and Duke with a post doc at Cal Tech and earns half what I do. Its not fair but it is supply and demand. I guess it's buyer beware.

See if I was really educated I'd put that in latin.

What multidisciplinary career paths would require PhD level math coursework along with the current load? No more useless degrees for me

Cryptology
Intelligence
Neural Networks
Operations Research

These guys are doing some pretty cool stuff if you've maintained your eligibility for classified work:

http://www.mitre.org/

http://www.battelle.org/

http://www.saic.com/

The key is to find the right field for a PhD. I am a dept. chair in business at a big university. We pay 120K+ for 9 months to start and have an incredibly difficult time filling the positions. Annual compensation may be closer to 150-170. There is a tremendous shortage.

I am always amazed at the sheer lack of research that people do before they go to grad school. Just look where the shortages are and go there. Why do math when you could do finance and make the $$?

You don't happen to need a business ethicist do you?

You can do that without a PhD.

To finish a PhD you have to really want to do it-- it's no fun a lot of the time, and for the most part doesn't open up new career opportunities except in a narrow area of research. Most people who drop out partway through don't leave because they can't do it, but because they decide they don't want to or that it isn't worth the obsession that you have to develop.

I agree you really want to do it, but I disagree about it not being fun. I love the challenge, I love it when I find a new piece of research or stumble upon something unexpected.

You don't happen to need a business ethicist do you?

Isn't that an oxymoron?:D

Slow, sure... But there's no way it's as repetitive as the usual jobs/careers available. While cleaning 100 test tubes may not be the highlight of your day, I don't think it's nearly as repetitive or mind numbing as loading freight or taking orders for 8 hours a day. Weird hours may not be great, but they still aren't a graveyard shift, and no matter what, I'm betting you still have to think about most of what you do.

There's a lot in between a PhD and flipping burgers or moving freight, particularly if you're in a technical field. There are plenty of engineering careers out there that let you have a lot of variety to your work and a more pleasant schedule and more employment flexibility.

And in an experimental field sometimes your weird hours are a graveyard shift. Sometimes after also working swing shift. Doing low noise experiments often works best when nearly everyone is out of the building.

I agree you really want to do it, but I disagree about it not being fun. I love the challenge, I love it when I find a new piece of research or stumble upon something unexpected.

How many years into it are you, and how many do you have left?

bike shop rat

How many years into it are you, and how many do you have left?
I have a couple years in and a couple to go. I have my research proposal finished
why?

Isn't that an oxymoron?:D

Not if there's six figures involved.

My dad had a PhD in Math and Physics, worked at NASA from the 50's to the 70's and then got tired of it and became a farmer. My mom always called him the most educated illiterate farmer. :D.