View Full Version : Finally watched "An Inconvenient Truth"
MyBikeGotStolen
09-20-07, 12:36 AM
Did anyone happen to see anything about pollution in the whole video, or is the whole point of the video to bash the current president?
It was actually pretty disappointing to me. I have been wanting to watch this for a long time but my library never has is in. I finally downloaded it today on-line.
I guess I'm back to not paying attention to a word any politician has to say.
I dont know if this belongs in another forum or not, but I put it here since we are the "enviro hippies" of BF :)
maddyfish
09-20-07, 05:20 AM
It was a comedy. Laugh at it, that's what it was made for, right?
Yeah, I have to say that I wasn't that impressed. Al Gore is just another enviro-chickenhawk, who makes silly little suggestions for reducing our environmental footprint, but doesn't dare ever challenge the notion of car culture and reforming our way of life here in America.
jonathan180iq
09-20-07, 06:07 AM
I agree with everything said thus far. However, the science in it seemed pretty solid and that information could be found from real studies. So, I appreciated that aspect of it.
Also, it has the ability to get the average Joe at least thinking about carbon footprints and it highlights the downward spiral of how wasteful our culture is.
Hmmm....
If you guys are saying, Al Gore is a lightweight environmentalist suggesting chicken***t "solutions" that are too little and too late, I agree 100%.
On the other hand, as the candidate who got the most votes in an important election, he counts as a high-profile advocate for an important cause, and as such he can do more to advance the cause than I or, I suspect, any of us can.
It seems to me he has intentionally chosen an aspect of the problem that hasn't been getting the attention it deserves. That is, pollution and global warming are inseparable, but pollution is old news and is being addressed already (not very well, I agree, but that's a separate issue), while global warming is not being addressed, and many people don't even believe it exists or, if they do, actually think it's a good thing.
May I assume we all agree that global warming is real, and that it is a problem? In my opinion, to deny global warming is a worse crime even than, say, denying the holocaust. So if Al has persuaded a few million people, then the movie has been a success.
As for the solutions he suggests... well, yes, it's chicken***t... but it's a step in the right direction, and it's a step our country has yet to take.
As for being a politician... well, yes, that's what he is. The politician's primary concern is getting more votes than his opponent. I don't respect the fact that he is offering a watered down version of the truth; but he seems to think this is the strongest solution the people will consider. That's pretty disappointing, to put it lightly. But he remains the strongest advocate for our cause, so I support him.
JoeyMac
09-20-07, 07:16 AM
most of that "documentary" was masturbatory, self-gratifying fluff for Al Gore and his political agenda. I still have to give him props for helping to make global warming a general topic of discussion for people who wouldn't normally even think about those things. I guess if you watch it you just have to take everything with a grain of salt, understand the source.
Oh, by the way, Maddyfish... regarding your "Bicyclists should be like Hedgehogs, small, but so mean and nasty nobody will want to fool with them" ... I'm not looking to start a fight here, you understand... but I met a hedgehog last month. My eight-year-old daughter has a tiny little toy hedgehog, a character from some story she read, and when we visited Europe she wanted to see a real one. I saw some dead ones along the road sides (ironic, isn't it, how bicyclists alway see this carnage better than the cars who cause it?) but I didn't point these out to her. But one evening she and her cousin went out into my uncle's garden to pick a pear off the tree and saw a little dark lump moving across the grass... so they came back to the table where the adults were sitting and mentioned it. My uncle ran down there and dropped a seater over the lump, picked it up, and brought it up to where we were sitting. He placed it on the table and unwrapped it; and there was the hedgehog. At first it looked like an overgrown sea urchin, but after a little while it uncurled itself, at which point little black feet, and a friendly but confused little face poked out of the spikes. It looked at us, each in turn, gradually turning itself around, looking for an escape route. After each of the kids had had a chance to touch the spines, and a couple pictures had been taken, my uncle took the little guy back to the garden and let him go on his way. From this experience -- my first encounter with a hedgehog since about 1968 -- I'd have to say they are not mean, and not nasty. Sorry!
The movie has a lot of segments that look like, well, campaign ads, and Al acts like such a smug, self-satisfied dork that it makes you forget he's actually pretty intelligent. However, if you edit those parts out and focus on the powerpoint presentation, it's pretty solid; it agrees with mainstream science (see the IPCC report, which is not a radical document by any means) and it's actually fairly restrained. I had to laugh a bit, though, at the very end, when Al suggested that we could solve the problem by buying smaller cars and compact flourescents; that's like giving an aspirin to an Ebola patient.
LetterRider
09-20-07, 09:58 AM
I agree that this film puts the issue of global warming into the homes and minds of many people who would not otherwise pay attention. In that aspect, it's fabulous. However, Al Gore as the spokesperson for this cause seems a bit contradictory to me. I do not know the source of this article or information, but I do think there is probably a substantial amount of truth in it. Maybe someone else has new info...
Anyway, here is the interesting part of this article about Gore's personal footprint:
In his documentary, the former Vice President calls on Americans to conserve energy by reducing electricity consumption at home.
The average household in America consumes 10,656 kilowatt-hours (kWh) per year, according to the Department of Energy. In 2006, Gore devoured nearly 221,000 kWh--more than 20 times the national average.
Last August alone, Gore burned through 22,619 kWh--guzzling more than twice the electricity in one month than an average American family uses in an entire year. As a result of his energy consumption, Gore's average monthly electric bill topped $1,359.
Since the release of An Inconvenient Truth, Gore's energy consumption has increased from an average of 16,200 kWh per month in 2005, to 18,400 kWh per month in 2006.
Gore's extravagant energy use does not stop at his electric bill. Natural gas bills for Gore's mansion and guest house averaged $1,080 per month last year.
"As the spokesman of choice for the global warming movement, Al Gore has to be willing to walk to walk, not just talk the talk, when it comes to home energy use," said Tennessee Center for Policy Research President Drew Johnson.
In total, Gore paid nearly $30,000 in combined electricity and natural gas bills for his Nashville estate in 2006."
Interesting...
MyBikeGotStolen
09-20-07, 10:24 AM
Letterrider, my dad was telling me a few of those facts the other day that he heard on the radio. he didnt have the exact numbers for it so I have been curious as to what the numbers actually were.
And yes, I also agree that the slideshow it self was pretty good as long as you dont pay attention to the guy presenting it or the "commercials" in between.
BTW, since he urged everyone to "buy a smaller car if they could" at the end, notice that he is riding in the back of a 254636653 lb. limo through out hlaf the movie. And how much fuel is being burned by the (private?) jets he took to fly to those "over 1,000 slideshows" in US, China. Japan, etc....
I agree that this film puts the issue of global warming into the homes and minds of many people who would not otherwise pay attention. In that aspect, it's fabulous.
That's certainly WAY more than any other politician has done. How can that be a bad thing?
What most seem to be doing is discrediting the messenger which then discredits the message. This can have dire consequences to a message that needs promotion, and gets almost none.
... Brad
/No fan of Gore or ANY politician
wahoonc
09-20-07, 11:20 AM
That's certainly WAY more than any other politician has done. How can that be a bad thing?
What most seem to be doing is discrediting the messenger which then discredits the message. This can have dire consequences to a message that needs promotion, and gets almost none.
... Brad
/No fan of Gore or ANY politician
Kind of like a smoking, overweight doctor telling me I need to lose weight, stop smoking and get more exercise:rolleyes:...IMHO the messenger is just as important as the message. I don't recommend preaching the vegetarian lifestyle when eating a juicy steak. National politicians seem to be totally out of touch with their constituency. State leaders are only marginally better. It has been said many times before that the upcoming problems facing the people of this country are going to be solved on the local, grassroots level, not the national level. I have little faith in the federal goverment and the people that run it...regardless of party affiliation.
Aaron:)
jonathan180iq
09-20-07, 01:57 PM
State leaders are only marginally better. It has been said many times before that the upcoming problems facing the people of this country are going to be solved on the local, grassroots level, not the national level. I have little faith in the federal goverment and the people that run it...regardless of party affiliation.
Aaron:)
More people need to pick up this mentality. It is grassroots change the leads to a real shift in ideas, not individual people preaching to mindless head-bobbers. (ie; politicians giving interviews on TV)
Cosmoline
09-20-07, 03:46 PM
Forget Gore. If you're looking for a celeb who's the "real thing," check out Ed Begley, Jr.
http://www.livingwithed.net/
He's got a new reality TV show coming out which will focus quite a bit on his efforts to combine an eco-friendly lifestyle with the modern world. I don't know what approach the producers are taking, but hopefully it will include something practical.
slowjoe66
09-20-07, 05:41 PM
"In my opinion, to deny global warming is a worse crime even than, say, denying the holocaust."
Why is that RHM? I don't see the connection.
kjohnnytarr
09-20-07, 06:37 PM
Don't be so quick to assume that everyone here buys the GWBS, rhm. I don't. (but I hope we're all still friends)
Al Gore is a hypocrite; Bush's ranch has way lower of an environmental footprint than Gore's place, which is really saying something considering that it is Bush.
Gore hasn't really done anything but perpetuate an idea that hasn't been convincingly proven. His "inconvenient truth" is ironically a very convenient way to justify all sorts of bad policy, and so it proves to be little more than a political ploy to gain the loyalty of our more clueless and corrupt lawmakers.
I have no problem with cutting emissions, increasing sustainable practices, and living more efficiently, of course. I just think that those of us who care about the future of the planet will be more effective in our efforts if we focus them on real problems, that we can actually have an effect on. Riding our bikes after an environmental red-herring leaves half the job undone.
onetrack
09-20-07, 07:45 PM
In total, Gore paid nearly $30,000 in combined electricity and natural gas bills for his Nashville estate in 2006."
Interesting...
Funny it says nothing about how gore uses green electricity sources. Leave the lights on all you want if your source dosen't emit carbon.
MyBikeGotStolen
09-20-07, 09:20 PM
Funny it says nothing about how gore uses green electricity sources. Leave the lights on all you want if your source dosen't emit carbon.
Can you show me something that states this as fact? How about the over $1000 a month in natural gas?
Im sure next you will say this his limos are hybrids also?
heywood
09-21-07, 01:58 AM
"In my opinion, to deny global warming is a worse crime even than, say, denying the holocaust."
Yes, unfortunatly it's statements like that that really have me wondering about global warming..
Another I heard was "Don't even start to question the science behind global warming".. errr... dude? That's what science is all about right?
So when someone tells me not to question it I get a whole bunch of red flags goin' up...
Cheers! :)
jonathan180iq
09-21-07, 06:24 AM
Funny it says nothing about how gore uses green electricity sources. Leave the lights on all you want if your source dosen't emit carbon.
While I see what you are saying, it's still bad practice. Leaving the lights on as much as you want will only leave to more of a draw on energy, renewable or not. Only so much can be generated at one time.
It's like eating a double helping of something, just because it's fat free.
"In my opinion, to deny global warming is a worse crime even than, say, denying the holocaust."
Why is that RHM? I don't see the connection.
Oh, I don't mean to imply that there's a connection. It's just that, denying the holocaust now, after the fact, no matter how illegal and stupid it is, has no bearing on the outcome of the holocaust. On the other hand, denying global warming, if it allows you to drive an SUV with a clear conscience, actually makes the problem worse. I am not comparing the holocaust and global warming; they are different animals. I am comparing their denial.
Best case scenarios:
If every one who denies the holocaust would suddenly see the error of his ways, and admit the historicity of the holocaust, and try to do something about it... well, that would be very nice, but few if any lives would be saved.
On the other hand, if every one who denies global warming would suddenly see the error of his ways, admit that global warming is real and is the result of humans burning fossil fuels, and try to do something about it... well, that might actually make a difference! If we could stop global warming, hundreds of millions of lives would be saved.
So I stand by my statement, that to deny global warming is a worse crime than denying the holocaust.
maddyfish
09-21-07, 07:00 AM
Oh, by the way, Maddyfish... regarding your "Bicyclists should be like Hedgehogs, small, but so mean and nasty nobody will want to fool with them" ... I'm not looking to start a fight here, you understand... but I met a hedgehog last month. My eight-year-old daughter has a tiny little toy hedgehog, a character from some story she read, and when we visited Europe she wanted to see a real one. I saw some dead ones along the road sides (ironic, isn't it, how bicyclists alway see this carnage better than the cars who cause it?) but I didn't point these out to her. But one evening she and her cousin went out into my uncle's garden to pick a pear off the tree and saw a little dark lump moving across the grass... so they came back to the table where the adults were sitting and mentioned it. My uncle ran down there and dropped a seater over the lump, picked it up, and brought it up to where we were sitting. He placed it on the table and unwrapped it; and there was the hedgehog. At first it looked like an overgrown sea urchin, but after a little while it uncurled itself, at which point little black feet, and a friendly but confused little face poked out of the spikes. It looked at us, each in turn, gradually turning itself around, looking for an escape route. After each of the kids had had a chance to touch the spines, and a couple pictures had been taken, my uncle took the little guy back to the garden and let him go on his way. From this experience -- my first encounter with a hedgehog since about 1968 -- I'd have to say they are not mean, and not nasty. Sorry!
I'm not mean and nasty if you are nice to me either. What do think would have happened if you picked up the hog and bit it? I bet it would not have been as nice then. That's the point, be nice if others are nice, but if others are not nice, be mean and nasty.
I'm not mean and nasty if you are nice to me either. What do think would have happened if you picked up the hog and bit it? I bet it would not have been as nice then. That's the point, be nice if others are nice, but if others are not nice, be mean and nasty.
Well, picking him up didn't phase him much... but bite him? No thanks, too prickly. But I see your point-- thanks for the clarification!
It has been said many times before that the upcoming problems facing the people of this country are going to be solved on the local, grassroots level, not the national level.
Aaron:)
This week Obama gave a speech a few blocks from where I work right after work
so I biked down to check him out. Among the various platitudes he seemed to say the same thing.
slowjoe66
09-21-07, 05:47 PM
"On the other hand, if every one who denies global warming would suddenly see the error of his ways, admit that global warming is real and is the result of humans burning fossil fuels, and try to do something about it... well, that might actually make a difference! If we could stop global warming, hundreds of millions of lives would be saved."
That statement pre-supposes that Global warming is A) real and B) the result of humans burning fossil fuels. Both of those presuppositions are in dispute, and unlike some who say so, the science is not settled on the issue.
That being said, I ride because it's good for me and it saves me money, not because I buy the Global warming outcry. By the way, I don't deny the holocaust.:)
Cosmoline
09-21-07, 07:38 PM
Does anyone actually doubt that global warming is fact? I've watched glaciers from Portage to Mendenhall vanish LITERALLY BEFORE MY EYES. So where did they go if there's no global warming? I can show you where there used to be SKI RESORTS in the Oregon coastal range. Not the cascades, the COASTAL RANGE. My grandparents would go there to ski. And I can remember a time when Mt. Hood always had more than enough snow to ski on.
If that's not enough, contemplate this. The NORTHWEST PASSAGE has just opened up. Do you understand that? COMPRENDE USTED? THE FLIPPING NORTHWEST FLIPPING PASSAGE IS OPEN! How is that seaways that remain locked in ice for ages and refused to budge from Franklin on down are suddenly cracking open?
http://abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/09/19/2037198.htm?section=business
I think you'd have to be a pointy headed igit to deny that the Earth is heating up. Maybe you can blame sun spots or something, but when the big dog is chewing on your assend that's probably the likely source of your pain.
That statement pre-supposes that Global warming is A) real
Where'd they take that million ton chunk of the Mendenhall that was there in '91 when I visted and is gone now? Is it hiding? Is it under the bed somewhere? Where did the Portage glacier go? Florida to retire? That much ice doesn't just skip town. And it's the same story with ice fields and glaciers and sea ice and shorefast ice and river ice and everything else.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retreat_of_glaciers_since_1850
For the love of Pete, the COLUMBIA RIVER USED TO FREEZE OVER ON A REGULAR BASIS. US Grant, before the Civil War, was hatching a plan to cut ice from the Columbia and sell it in California.
http://www.columbian.com/_images/history/riverfrozen2.jpg
If you want to go back even further, we can talk about how the THAMES used to freeze over. They'd go out and hold street faires on it.
Glaciers and icefields are incredibly important in the weather. To give you a tangible example, last summer I went out on a meat boat from Seward to get some fish. It was July and temps were in the mild 60's. Suddenly the temp on the boat dropped into the low 50's and a freezing wind hit us. The wind was coming from Excelsior glacier, even though it was so small from that distance it appeared as nothing more than a thin strip of white. Remove a million Excelciors and you loose all that powerful cooling engine for the planet, speeding up warming even more.
cadillacmike68
09-21-07, 10:35 PM
Did anyone happen to see anything about pollution in the whole video, or is the whole point of the video to bash the current president?
It was actually pretty disappointing to me. I have been wanting to watch this for a long time but my library never has is in. I finally downloaded it today on-line.
I guess I'm back to not paying attention to a word any politician has to say.
I dont know if this belongs in another forum or not, but I put it here since we are the "enviro hippies" of BF :)
That moviemis a waste of time and a bunch of lies.
Ask al why Mars is also warming - with no SUVs running around that planet. Or better yet, ask him how his private jet is doing...
jakesford
09-22-07, 12:22 AM
I think most people understand that global warming is a occurring. When I say "global warming" I mean that the avg global temp has increased. Now does anyone truly know the reasons behind the increase, no, and to put all the blame directly on humanity and our CO2 emissions is down right dumb. Honestly, the fact that there are researchers out there that have the balls to come out and say "increased CO2 emissions is the cause of global warming" scares me. Meteorologist can't even accurately predict the severity of a hurricane season year to year, yet some how there are people that are making these huge claims about climate change. We're talking about the entire global climate with millions upon millions of variables that change daily:eek:
Much of the "scientific" information presented in the film is one sided and has been widely disputed by many researchers. The ones that get heard, and have interviews with CNN are the scientist that say "that the world is doomed, ocean levels will rise 80' in the next decade... That our use of fossil fuels has doomed us" This is a much better front page story than, "the current trend in climate change appears to be natural and is due to many possible reasons, with CO2 emission only contributing to small portion of the actual temperature increase" Its just that in this day and time all the concern is around global warming and if you want uncle sam and other concerned governments around the world to help fund your research you throw that tag line in on the front page of your grant request. There is too much money and political pressure currently to get a true non-biased consensus IMO.
Just my opinion on the matter
CommuterRun
09-22-07, 03:33 AM
The planet is warming. There is no question about that. Is that warming caused or accelerated by human activities? We don't really know. I do think we give ourselves too much credit for what we have done, and what we can do...the effect that we have had, and can have.
I also think Al Gore is an environmental fraud.
i like al and what he stands for mostly. but his gas bill i heard for his crib in tennessee was around 3000 bucks! is this true?
Man, if anything tells me we're doomed it's this thread.
How a thread that starts out concerning a mainstream movie (think about that) about the dangers of global warming ends up with this many contributions denying there's even a problem beats me.
Here was me thinking I was on the Living Car Free board.
Turns out it's the 100 ways to get out of not driving my car.
There's a price to pay for everything, gentlemen. And the trouble is, your mindset ensures my daughters' will pay it much worse than you will.
Also, I wouldn;t mind so much if you were just p*ssing in your own swimming pool, trouble is, your p*ssing in mine as well, while all the while saying: "I don;t believe a word of all this urine in water leads to stomach upset nonsense. Really, it's just a ploy to make us stop p*ssing where ever and whenever we want by a lot of crackpot scientists and clean freaks. 'nother beer bubba???"
And don;t bother with that "well Gore leaves his lights on, so therefore, his argument's bogus." I heard all that from my brother in law, and you know what, he's just clutching at any straw that makes him feel justified in driving his car everywhere and calling cyclists scum (yes, you're in that camp). Truth is, though, if he didn;t regonise the problem and realize deep down he wasn;t part of the solution, he wouldn;t be struggling so hard to deny the arguement. He'd be like: "so, and, hey, who cares..."
"Mars is heating up as well." As Oliver hardy would say "Hmm-MMMMMM!!!!!"
it's funny how the overlap betwixt global warming deniers and evolution deniers is so strong. fundamentalist religion makes you dumb. or maybe dumb people are attracted to fundamentalist religion.:)
jus' sayin'. . .
The average household in America consumes 10,656 kilowatt-hours (kWh) per year, according to the Department of Energy. In 2006, Gore devoured nearly 221,000 kWh--more than 20 times the national average.
Last August alone, Gore burned through 22,619 kWh--guzzling more than twice the electricity in one month than an average American family uses in an entire year. As a result of his energy consumption, Gore's average monthly electric bill topped $1,359.
Since the release of An Inconvenient Truth, Gore's energy consumption has increased from an average of 16,200 kWh per month in 2005, to 18,400 kWh per month in 2006.
Gore's extravagant energy use does not stop at his electric bill. Natural gas bills for Gore's mansion and guest house averaged $1,080 per month last year.
"As the spokesman of choice for the global warming movement, Al Gore has to be willing to walk to walk, not just talk the talk, when it comes to home energy use," said Tennessee Center for Policy Research President Drew Johnson.
In total, Gore paid nearly $30,000 in combined electricity and natural gas bills for his Nashville estate in 2006."
Interesting...
These figures are only shocking to me if he is using the energy for some kind of personal consumption. If he is using this to run some kind of humanitarian organization from his home or an orphanage it isn't so shocking. Maybe in 2006 he got environmental religion and used the power to run the construction tools needed to retrofit solar panels and insulation? When I read the word "mansion" of course extravagant parties and wasteful lifestyle come to mind but that's just my imagination.
ChipSeal
09-23-07, 09:16 AM
[QUOTE=Gotte;5313240]Man, if anything tells me we're doomed it's this thread.
How a thread that starts out concerning a mainstream movie (think about that) about the dangers of global warming ends up with this many contributions denying there's even a problem beats me.
QUOTE]
One premise I don't accept is that global warming is a bad thing. The earth has been both warmer than it is now and cooler. Who is to say what the ideal temperature is?
Many of the claims of the Global Warmists is hysterical in nature. Al says the oceans could rise 27 feet, for example. But the UN global warming report says that in the worse case they can envision, the oceans will rise less than 18 inches.
All this sounds so familiar. While the looming disaster de jour keeps changing, the solution is always the same. This sounds just the same as the hysteria over DDT, acid rain, global cooling, ozone depletion, spotted owl extinction, dioxin pollution, imminent death of the oceans, and running out of landfills. I am sure that there are other examples that I am forgetting now. All of these "threats to humanity" have been declared in my adulthood, and all of them have the very same solutions according to the alarmists: In order to avoid the coming nearly inevitable disaster, we must dismantle modern society and return to pre-industrial lifestyles. Curious don't you think? When one horrible outcome fails to appear, they just move on to something else. The only thing that doesn't change is the remedy they advocate.
Could it be that there is an agenda here other than "saving humanity"?
So excuse me if I am skeptical about this latest claim of doom if America continues down this path. The track record of the alarmists is that of dismal failure. But at least they have learned from their past errors! Now they put the date of their predictions so far in the future no one now living will be around to point out how wrong they were. (Ted Dansen predicted that all the worlds oceans would be dead in ten years in the early 1990's... oops!) Frankly, I am surprised this crowd has any credibility with anyone.
Funny how there can be no contrary evidence to the conventional wisdom. If we have unseasonal heat waves, it is said to be "proof" of global warming. If we have unseasonal cold, it evidence of global warming!
As for Mars getting warmer, let me point you to a publication well known with it's ties to Big Oil:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070228-mars-warming.html
Cheers! :D
Man, if anything tells me we're doomed it's this thread.
How a thread that starts out concerning a mainstream movie (think about that) about the dangers of global warming ends up with this many contributions denying there's even a problem beats me.
Here was me thinking I was on the Living Car Free board.
....
"Mars is heating up as well." As Oliver hardy would say "Hmm-MMMMMM!!!!!"
My observation is that many people in the US are dumb-founded by the blitz of propaganda from the oil industry's many "spin" factories. That's all I can conclude. I do notice that in travelling in Canada, the population seems to be much better informed about climate change. Of course, Canadians do seem to get a lot more exposure to the warming happening in the Arctic, much as Cosmoline has in Alaska. But there is something very disturbing about what you hear from many Americans about climate change... they deny it in spite of seeing the results right in front of them. The same thing is happening with the notion of Peak Oil. Americans really suspect that an oil crunch is right around the corner, but they will deny it right up until the well runs dry.
Mars heating up? Now that's what I call spin :)
kjohnnytarr
09-23-07, 12:24 PM
it's funny how the overlap betwixt global warming deniers and evolution deniers is so strong. fundamentalist religion makes you dumb. or maybe dumb people are attracted to fundamentalist religion.:)
jus' sayin'. . .
Now you come over here and say that to my secular / global-warming skeptical face! Believe it or not, I completely understand and accept evolution, and have the opposite view when it comes to the politicized "science" or global warming. That hardly fits in with your assumption.
I see what you're trying to do here: you're trying to paint those of us who are skeptical of global warming as rednecks and ultra-rightwing nuts. Nice try. That sort of talk makes you seem pretty ignorant, and using betwixt on the internet doesn't cover it up much.
Does anybody know the name of a climate scientist who doesn't believe there is convincing evidence for anthropogenic climate change?
....I didn't think so!
(Ted Dansen predicted that all the worlds oceans would be dead in ten years in the early 1990's... oops!) Frankly, I am surprised this crowd has any credibility with anyone.
Ted Danson. The dumb bartender on Cheers? This is the best straw man you could come up with! You're too funny.
slowjoe66
09-23-07, 03:08 PM
it's funny how the overlap betwixt global warming deniers and evolution deniers is so strong. fundamentalist religion makes you dumb. or maybe dumb people are attracted to fundamentalist religion.:)
jus' sayin'. . .
And it's statements like this that prove you are ignorant.
Newspaperguy
09-23-07, 03:41 PM
Does anyone actually doubt that global warming is fact? I've watched glaciers from Portage to Mendenhall vanish LITERALLY BEFORE MY EYES. So where did they go if there's no global warming? I can show you where there used to be SKI RESORTS in the Oregon coastal range. Not the cascades, the COASTAL RANGE. My grandparents would go there to ski. And I can remember a time when Mt. Hood always had more than enough snow to ski on.
Thanks for those examples of climate change. Here are a few more from my part of the world:
• Okanagan Lake used to freeze over in the winter from time to time. I have pictures from the 1920s of cars driving on the ice. The last time the lake froze over was 1969 — nearly 40 years ago. Today we seldom even have ice along the shore.
• Creeks in the area that were once used as water sources have dried up. This has happened within the past 50 years or less.
• Because of warmer winter weather and better forest fire control practices, the mountain pine beetle is destroying forests all over British Columbia. It has been a problem in the central and northern parts of the province for a good 10 to 15 years and it is expected to become a problem in the Southern Interior within the next few years. Already the signs of beetle damage are quite visible in the western half of Manning Park.
• My community's water supply comes from reservoirs in the mountains. These are filled in spring when the snow melts. The reservoirs fill, overfill and spill for a while and then the spilling stops and we use water in storage for the rest of the year. I've got statistics for around the past 35 years. In the 1970s and 1980s, we'd usually go into storage some time in August. Since 2000, we've been going into storage in late June or early July. (The majority of our water is used for agricultural irrigation and our total consumption has changed very little over the years.)
• The entire province has had a lot strange weather incidents in the past decade. In just the last few years, we've seen record-breaking snowfall during winter blizzards, record-setting warm weather in the Lower Mainland in winter, windstorms in the Vancouver area, droughts and floods. In July, one community received more rain in a couple of hours than it would normally get in a month or two.
Other regions are also experiencing their own weather anomalies.
No matter what anyone thinks of Al Gore and his documentary, we are witnessing climate change. The question no longer is whether climate change is a reality. Instead, it's time to look at how to respond to the changes around us.
KrisPistofferson
09-23-07, 06:42 PM
And it's statements like this that prove you are ignorant.Not really. Flat-Earthers tend to be anti-science in general, the same way people who listen to Coast-To-Coast AM usually don't just have one pet conspiracy theory, but tend to swallow the whole load of malarky; from alien greys to "remote viewing" to chupacabras.
Conservative Christians tend to be for laissez faire capitalism to an insane degree, branding any sort of government intervention or social program as "socialism," (unless of course it makes someone in the private sector rich, then they turn a blind eye.) When you add this to an apocalyptic worldview, things like pollution and conservation are no longer important at all. The earth is basically the wrapper that came with your Whopper: disposable.
Most people I've met that are capable of being intellectually dishonest enough to ignore scientific consensus and get all their "information" about Global Warming from baldly partisan thinktanks that are funded by all the wrong people, are usually the same guys that buy books by theologians about how biologists, geneticists, paleontologists, etcetera are all wrong. Of course, a book written 3000 years ago by people who did not know how to cook food properly is right, as it pertains to how life began and how it got to where it is currently.
Sorry it offends you, but it's still a valid observation. (I've even met a couple Birchers who didn't believe in the Apollo Moon Landing as well, which is in my opinion a perfect Trifecta of stupidity. Yes, they were going to vote for Ron Paul, as if you needed to ask.) ;)
By the way, I thought An Inconvenient Truth kind of sucked, there was a little too much Al Gore when he should've been focusing on the science behind climate change. The numbers speak for themselves, no need to try the emotional appeal, especially when it's not relevant.
Don't be so quick to assume that everyone here buys the GWBS, rhm. I don't. (but I hope we're all still friends)
We can still be friends, but how can you not believe in global warming? For the past several years, even the most rabid opponent of this issue (the Bush administration) not only states that global warming is real, but that we have had some role:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37232-2004Aug26.html
Who, or what organization is stating that global warming isn't real today?
... Brad
Man, if anything tells me we're doomed it's this thread.
How a thread that starts out concerning a mainstream movie (think about that) about the dangers of global warming ends up with this many contributions denying there's even a problem beats me.
I'm also at a loss... It goes to show how far a little misinformation goes.
Putting aside "global warming" for a second - what I'm really shocked at is the number of people who seem to genuinely believe that we can overpopulate the earth, cut down the major forests, burn all the fossil fuels, and coat the planet with a layer of asphalt and chemicals -- and not have a negative long-term impact.
kjohnnytarr
09-23-07, 10:16 PM
We can still be friends, but how can you not believe in global warming? For the past several years, even the most rabid opponent of this issue (the Bush administration) not only states that global warming is real, but that we have had some role:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37232-2004Aug26.html
Who, or what organization is stating that global warming isn't real today?
... Brad
Global warming is a pseudoscience, as I see it. I'll explain why, using the standards of scientific knowledge.
Science must be:
1. Empirically testable
2. Falsifiable
3. Reproducible
4. Valid
5. Generalizable
The problem of global warming theory not being empirically testable: We simply don't have accurate temperature data for the range of time that would be required to prove or disprove global warming. I'll be surprised if anyone could even show me decent, reliable data for the past 50 years in the developed world, let alone the last 500 years on the whole planet.
Global warming theory is also not falsifiable. The pseudoscientists who propagate the idea made sure of that. You can't design a test to disprove that the planet is warming at the gradual scale that proponents of global warming claim. That's the beauty of it, for a global warming scientist: they'll aways have a job, because no-one can actually beat them at their own game (since by the very wording of the theory, they've written the rules in their favor)
Any research done on global warming is also not reproducible. It's impossible to create an accurate computer model of the world, or find an identical planet to research, or go back in time. If anyone else knows a reproducible way to study the earth, please point it out.
Global warming data is also not valid. Some places get warmer, some places get colder, and they only really report the former. When the latter is brought up, it's brushed aside as climate change caused by global warming. Yeah right; that's like gaining weight by fasting.
Global warming theory also ignores the necessity that the data be generalizable. If scientists want to claim that a set of conditions is making this planet warmer, they need to provide evidence that the same would be true on similar planets.
ChipSeal
09-24-07, 12:13 AM
Does anybody know the name of a climate scientist who doesn't believe there is convincing evidence for anthropogenic climate change?
....I didn't think so!
I didn't have to look very far:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientists_opposing_the_mainstream_scientific_assessment_of_global_warming
Ain't the internet grand!
bmclaughlin807
09-24-07, 01:04 AM
I didn't have to look very far:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientists_opposing_the_mainstream_scientific_assessment_of_global_warming
Ain't the internet grand!
Huh. that's a whole lot of people with a LOT more climate experience than anyone I've seen here on the forums.....
KrisPistofferson
09-24-07, 01:17 AM
Big Tobacco used to pay doctors to claim cigarettes cured colds. They didn't. What they did was give you lung cancer. They paid them not to say that. See where this is going?
Who's paying off the scientists who claim humans are causing GW, (which I'd like to remind everyone posting is still the vast majority of climatologists and scientists in related fields,) Big Wind and Big Solar? :rolleyes:
There will always be a few individuals who have an axe to grind that will sit through enough classes to get a PhD, then completely deny the basic tenets of their given field, but it doesn't mean they're very ethical, it just means they are willing to put ideology ahead of data, usually because someone is paying them to do so.
Smallwheels
09-24-07, 01:42 AM
There was a BBC documentary shown on Google Video entitled "The Great Global Warming Swindle". Several points in the video have been disputed, along with some mistakes, but the one thing that really stands out is the undisputed fact that the Earth has been substantially warmer in the distant past, before human industrialization.
The levels of CO2 have been much higher than they are now. CO2 is only .54% of our atmosphere. Even if we doubled that it would be a tiny percent of our atmosphere.
Solar activity has been dramatically stronger for a decade. There have been record levels of sun spots in the last couple of years. And this year during the solar minimum (which arrived late) there was a record absence of sun spots for a while. The sun is really changing right now. Most people don't know it but our sun is a variable star. It goes through phases. It is true that other planets are warming in our solar system. The polar ice caps on Mars are the smallest they have been in decades.
The oceans are definitely warming. This is partially due to the increased under sea volcanoes. In the Atlantic there is a 43 mile long open rift of molten lava. That is putting a lot of heat into the oceans. The Ring of Fire around the Pacific has had a tremendous increase in volcanic activity in the last decade.
Ninety-five percent of the worlds glaciers are growing. All of the ice packs and glaciers near oceans are indeed melting due to the warmer temperatures of the water. The glaciers are growing due to the slightly increased evaporation from the oceans. That increase in moisture turns into more snowfall during the winters.
Anyone interested in keeping up with this data can visit http://www.iceagenow.com/. The evidence of an ice age coming soon is there.
The short version is this; warmer water creates more evaporation. The winter temperatures are already cold enough to produce snow. More moisture in the winter creates record snow falls which will not fully melt in the spring and summer. Once this begins, the ice age comes very quickly.
To allay any criticisms, I drove my car only 2000 miles last year. It is for sale now. I ride my bicycles for most of my transportation.
ChipSeal
09-24-07, 05:12 AM
Big Tobacco used to pay doctors to claim cigarettes cured colds. They didn't. What they did was give you lung cancer. They paid them not to say that. See where this is going?
Who's paying off the scientists who claim humans are causing GW, (which I'd like to remind everyone posting is still the vast majority of climatologists and scientists in related fields,) Big Wind and Big Solar? :rolleyes:
There will always be a few individuals who have an axe to grind that will sit through enough classes to get a PhD, then completely deny the basic tenets of their given field, but it doesn't mean they're very ethical, it just means they are willing to put ideology ahead of data, usually because someone is paying them to do so.
My, how glib you are with your slander! There is no doubt in your mind that any of these prestigious scientists have honest doubts, but rather, they have all sold their reputations for a quick buck! :rolleyes:
You sound so pious and even religious in your rejection of these scientists. No need to consider their point of view, for they are "denying the basic tenants of their field" (Like you are in a position to know!) and they are "unethical". Therefore we can dismiss their arguments out of hand. How very open minded of you! It smells very similar to bigotry to me.
This type of shouting down opposing views is typical of tyrants and zealots. Not everything is as black and white as you make out, KP.
jonathan180iq
09-24-07, 07:20 AM
Well, everyone has obviously made their case about global warming's exisitence, or lack thereof.
That being said, I think we can at least agree that the lifestyle that is blamed for global climate change is something that we all detest, autocentric culture and fossil fuel burning.
I mean, why else do we ride bikes and hang out in the car-free forum?
Let's stop bickering over our political views and our views on politicians and enjoy what it is that brings us together. I mean, some of these arguments are getting pretty personal and there is really no need for that.
vBulletin® v3.7.3, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.