Classic & Vintage - Which frame would you choose: NOS Silver Brazed Trek OR Cinelli knockoff Windsor?

Help me decide.

The Trek is unpainted, never built NOS Silver Brazed. Light surface rust, but that would be taken care of before painting.

The Windsor frame is light blue, with the typical Cinelli lookalike chrome lugs. Comes with a Cinelli stem, headset, and Superbe BB. A few chips in paint here and there with maybe a touch of rust, nothing major.


Heres some extremely quickly taken and horrible pics of the Windsor.
http://students.uwsp.edu/jmcdo533/images/Bike/Stuart/Stuart01.jpg
http://students.uwsp.edu/jmcdo533/images/Bike/Stuart/Stuart02.jpg



A Bernard Hinault Look made of Reynolds 753 Sadly it has a dent, and Im not fond of the paint. Would it be sinful to repaint it? This could be another option added to the above. I think he wants around $200 for this.
http://students.uwsp.edu/jmcdo533/images/Bike/Stuart/Stuart04.jpg


Also, a nice campy crank:
http://students.uwsp.edu/jmcdo533/images/Bike/Stuart/Stuart03.jpg


And some eye candy for you all. One of his Masi's. The top tube tubing is so thin you can pinch it with your fingers and feel it flex. No joke! He want ~650 for this guy though, so out of my price range. Near mint condition!
http://students.uwsp.edu/jmcdo533/images/Bike/Stuart/Stuart05.jpg

the windsor for $80 is a great deal if it fits, don't know anything about treks...

Take the Look frame in a heartbeat. Reynolds 753 required strict training in order to be sold. Reynolds 753 is somewhat rare. If you can afford to buy more than one buy as many as you can. I would buy the Windsor and the Look if you can afford it. Forget the Masi. It might be nice but not worth 650$. Good luck post pics soon.

Does anyone know what the Windsor is made of tubeset-wise?

if you can afford it, go with the look.that masi's nice, but definately not worth 650 for just the frameset.

Take the Look frame in a heartbeat. Reynolds 753 required strict training in order to be sold.

"Strict training" is a bit of an exaggeration, but the fact that 753 may be a bit more fragile/brittle than 531 is a good reason to be wary of a significant dent. A tube replacement will increase costs quite a bit. All other things being equal, I agree that the Look frame is the most special and has the most upside in terms of collectibility. It's your frame (if you buy it), but I'd leave the paint alone. If you ever resell it, you won't get your money out of a repaint, and you'll be much better off with original paint and decals. My hunch is that a Look Bernard Hinault frame in 753 does have upside as a collectible, and a repaint will significantly reduce its value from that perspective. On the other hand, if you have no plans to ever resell it, make yourself happy and paint it whatever color you like.
If that dent is a deal-breaker, personally I think the Windsor has the second-best mojo. There were a number of years where all of the Treks were silver-brazed, so that in itself doesn't indicate where the frame falls in the heirarchy.
If you can pinch the top tube on that Masi 3V, it's probably an Italian one built with Excell tubing - which is another couple of notches more rare and perhaps special than 753. But I agree that it's probably overpriced.

Me, since I have fun painting frames, would add the Trek @ $60 to any of the others purchased.

What size is the Windsor? And the Look?

What size is the Windsor? And the Look?

My size. :D I'm not sure exactly somewhere between 55 and 57. Luckily the seller and I are the same size.

Can anyone tell me what the Windsor is made of? That would be real helpful.

I probably will buy both. Dang now Ill have to hide them from my girlfriend haha! (she thinks 6 is too many :rolleyes: )

My size. :D I'm not sure exactly somewhere between 55 and 57. Luckily the seller and I are the same size.

Can anyone tell me what the Windsor is made of? That would be real helpful.

I probably will buy both. Dang now Ill have to hide them from my girlfriend haha! (she thinks 6 is too many :rolleyes: )

Here's a link to a search for "Windsor" on the bikelist.org archives (CR, iBob, et al lists). 50 pages worth! Might give you a better picture of them. I think most Cinelli purists thumb their noses at them, as they were knock-offs, but it seems the consensus is that they are decent bikes. Looks like many had Columbus or Reynolds 531 tubing, but maybe not all were butted or the higher end tubesets of these manufacturers.

http://search.bikelist.org/?SearchString=windsor

The Windsor Pros of the early, mid 70s were Columbus SL.

What size and tubing is the Trek? model# if you got it

Look at that pegboard of cranksets...nice.

-Kurt

Well, I bought them both.

The size of the Trek seems to be 55cm. It has no model, but the serial is: 045715 Can anyone tell me anymore info from that?

The brazing work is phenomenal on this frame. We think it was made by Mike Appel too!! No clean up is visible (easy to see since its not painted) The seat stay ends are immaculately finished. Flawless! Very thin lug ends too. Lots of work went into this thing.

The seller thought the Windsor may be Vitus due to the 26.2mm seatpost. Any thoughts? The chrome is on OK shape, a few rust spots here and there, but not bad. its stamped 7862 in the lug near the seatpost clamp. Stamped 56 on the BB (size?)

Ill post some pics soon. Thanks for any info you may have.

Thanks!

Look at that pegboard of cranksets...nice.

-Kurt

Yeah he has quite the collection. He has a Record Pista crank signed/used by some Olympic track sprinter when he won the gold medal that year. Cant remember his name though. Many other equally amazing things.

Yeah he has quite the collection. He has a Record Pista crank signed/used by some Olympic track sprinter when he won the gold medal that year. Cant remember his name though. Many other equally amazing things.

Now that's a collection - I'm rather partial to one-of-a-kind pieces.

By the way, that is a gorgeous Windsor you just picked up. Simply stunning. I'd built it up if I were you - I'd bet you won't regret it.

-Kurt

P.S.: The Campag crankset is Triomphe, '84/5-86. For those who are wondering why I did not include the '87 Triomphe S3 group, the '87 variant had a higher-polish finish under the clear anodizing (which differed from the finish of the '85-86 Victory too) - the originals had the satin finish he shows here.

-Kurt

A) At $80, the Windsor is a great riding no-brainer.

B) If it were me, I'd seriously think about offering $475-500 for the 3V Masi and be prepared to negoiate... I'd be pleased to walk away with her for under $550 or so. At $650?,errr... mmmm.... not so much

C) I'd definately pass on the Look. The crease was sharp enuf to cause the paint to flake.... it's toast,imo... a real shame.

the serial is: 045715

Oops its 045712.

The size of the Trek seems to be 55cm. It has no model, but the serial is: 045715 Can anyone tell me anymore info from that?


According to vintage-trek.com, it's an '83 510

Not an infallible source, but a pretty good bet. Looks like a carry-over from '82, available as a frameset only. Full Ishiwata 021, a very nice tubeset! Had a sport touring geometry with relaxed angles and long chainstays.

http://www.vintage-trek.com/images/trek/Trek3pg7.jpg

EDIT: Applies to 045712 as well.

That Windsor is gorgeous. I just up a blue Windsor touring bike (should arrive by the end of the week) but it appears to be a flat, medium blue and not nearly as nice looking as the metallic blue of yours. Also, I dig the Olde English script on the decals. Mine has much plainer, almost cartoonish decals.

Did he say how old the Windsor is? Mine is a 1980. URL is below, if you want to take a look.

http://cm.ebay.com/cm/ck/1065-29392-2357-0?uid=7984612&site=0&ver=EOIBSA080805&lk=URL&Item=150160431672

Also, here are a couple old Bicycling Magazine reviews that you might enjoy. Some posts refer to the Windsors as having a dead ride. The review of the touring model refers to it as "snappy" and "crisp." I hope to find out the truth next weekend.

Also, I used to ride my dad's Windsor Pro as teenager and loved it. I'll have more of a frame of reference now, though.

Enjoy. Post more photos when you get a chance.

http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/broderir/Catalogs-Posters/Road-Tests-Reviews/Bicycling-1980-04-A/

http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/broderir/Catalogs-Posters/Road-Tests-Reviews/Bicycling-1975-10-A/

very interesting quandary, but sounds like you made the right choice(s). The thing that interests me is the seatpost size of that Windsor: 26.2 is what a real Cinelli would have, cause Cino brazed in an internal collar in the top of the seat tube. Earlier Windsor Pros all had larger size posts, either 27.2 or 26.8 AFAIK. This seems to be a later model and possibly repainted, certainly re-stickered...so IS there an internal sleeve in the seat tube?

My size. :D I'm not sure exactly somewhere between 55 and 57. Luckily the seller and I are the same size.

Can anyone tell me what the Windsor is made of? That would be real helpful.

I probably will buy both. Dang now Ill have to hide them from my girlfriend haha! (she thinks 6 is too many :rolleyes: )

Usually if there's no tubing sticker then the builder used a mix of tubes, to get a particular characteristic from that particular frame.

Does the Trek have a S/N? If so you can look it up on www.vintage-trek.com and find out exactly what model it is.


If you want a really good rider, the Masi will be that. I have a Trek and a Masi, and the Masi is a far better riding bike.

certainly re-stickered...so IS there an internal sleeve in the seat tube?

You can tell he logo is actually hand painted on. Its not perfect, but looks real nice.

No sleeve as far as my pinky could reach.

-Jerry

That Windsor is gorgeous. I just up a blue Windsor touring bike (should arrive by the end of the week) but it appears to be a flat, medium blue and not nearly as nice looking as the metallic blue of yours. Also, I dig the Olde English script on the decals. Mine has much plainer, almost cartoonish decals.

Did he say how old the Windsor is? Mine is a 1980. URL is below, if you want to take a look.

http://cm.ebay.com/cm/ck/1065-29392-2357-0?uid=7984612&site=0&ver=EOIBSA080805&lk=URL&Item=150160431672

He didn't know for sure how old it was. The script is cool, hand painted on like I said. I love the blue too. Very neat. This frame is kind of hefty compared to the Trek I noticed.

The serial number on the seatlug tells its a Windsor and not a Cinelli.

Yes it's a Windsor, that was never in doubt, but what tubing it's made from is another story. 26.2 seatpost, no internal sleeve and heavier weight than a Trek (that seems to be Ishiwata 022) indicates something heavy-guage, at least in the seat tube. And therefore maybe not a Profesional model since the Pros were always Columbus SL (or nearly always). I've never heard of Acer-Mex using Vitus tubing...anybody know?

Wow you guys are no doubt the most helpful of any sub-forum!

Wow you guys are no doubt the most helpful of any sub-forum!

shhh, don't tell anyone, it's the best kept secret in Bike Forums. . .

marty

Heres a few more pics. They arent shrunk yet, so they are big. Ill get more soon.

1 (http://students.uwsp.edu/jmcdo533/images/Bike/TrekWindsor/1.jpg)
2 (http://students.uwsp.edu/jmcdo533/images/Bike/TrekWindsor/2.jpg)
3 (http://students.uwsp.edu/jmcdo533/images/Bike/TrekWindsor/3.jpg)
4 (http://students.uwsp.edu/jmcdo533/images/Bike/TrekWindsor/4.jpg)
5 (http://students.uwsp.edu/jmcdo533/images/Bike/TrekWindsor/5.jpg)
6 (http://students.uwsp.edu/jmcdo533/images/Bike/TrekWindsor/6.jpg)
7 (http://students.uwsp.edu/jmcdo533/images/Bike/TrekWindsor/7.jpg)
8 (http://students.uwsp.edu/jmcdo533/images/Bike/TrekWindsor/8.jpg)

Beautiful. Post more when you get it built up.

The Windsor looks more nicely finished than the early '70s Pros, especially around the seat fastback. Given the Suntour dropouts, and no chrome on the seatcluster, this might be a later Competition model. Might be built with Tange tubing and might have come with an all-SunTour gruppo. Given the 26.2 seatpost I'd guess the tube is straight-guage, and a pretty heavy grade of Tange.