Mountain Biking - extreme downhill without suspension or limited supsension

ok, so these days you see all the heavy downhill bikes with 150mm of travel front and rear and all kinds of stuff...

i have never bought one of these "downhill machines" because then i would have to find harder trails (other than huge drops i don't know of ANY trail i cannot ride other than steep switchback hiking trails in the Alps), plus, i'd have to pedal all that weight uphill.

i currently ride a 2002 Specialized FSR XC with a FOX 80mm fork and after my last weekend where i rode some of the most extreme trals in Europe (steep rocky 1000-2000m descents near Lake Garda) i have been seriously considering building up a hard-core downhill bike (with hefty tires/rims) with either no suspension or only a 80mm travel fork. -- i.e. simply, inexpensive and semi-lightweight but with heavy tires and rock ring...

i haven't actually ridden a rigid frame on trails in a while and maybe i would hate it (my arms were about to fall off WITH the 80mm on my one non-stop 1000m descent), but does anyone know if there is a reverse trend to basic gear? i.e. so the rider really has to _RIDE_ rather than put his weight back and let the 150mm suspension take up the bumbs and rocks and drops?

although i had a blast, i was actually disappointed at how "easy" some of these trails have become for me now and i am basically thinking that it'll be easier (and cheaper) to reduce the technology rather than try and find even harder trails...

and with the right tires and wheels i would think a rigid frame should be able to handle the abuse of high-speed downhill trails ok, yes?

anyone catch my drift here?

The 150mm travel is there for a reason. If you ride hard dh for a while on a full rigid, imagine what your elbows/knees/back is going to feel like. You wouldnt want to be injured or damaged for the sake of saving $$$. Physical therapy and hospital bills may end up costing more than the bike.

Well take it from someone who knows. I was riding the setup you have mentioned before suspension came to be affordable. It was fun at first but the long term results of this is not very fun. Like "troie" has mentioned my elbow ligaments are tender, my lower back is basically beyond repair (except for GOD). My knees are good, however all of this does not stem from riding it is a combination of former lifestyle (building trades) and year after year of commuting by bike and off road riding (20+ years). I still ride a hardtail even though I own a shop and could easily aquire a FS rig I choose not too.
However like "troie" mentioned how much money do you want to give to the medical profession? Or like me how much down time do you want off the bike?

My freeride/DH bike is a hardtail with Manitou Black forks. I dont have a problem with it, and find it much easier to balance and gain speed when freeriding.

I think I know what you're getting at, Nathan. A lot of my buddies have gone to full sus bikes, and I can't help thinking that a big part of the reason is the wow factor of how an fs bike looks - much sexier than a plain old hardtail. The terrain here is strictly XC, and although fs makes them faster on descents, I quickly catch them on flats and climbs. They bug me all the time about when I will go fs, but I just keep telling them that I like the strength, simplicity, reduced maintenance, cheaper initial cost, etc. of my hardtail. I have plenty of fun riding my bike, and doubt that increased downhill speeds would make my rides any more enjoyable than they already are. Ride what you like, and if it's a hardtail, just slow down a little and smile, we are all out here to just have fun. Around here lots of guys are starting to ride rigid and singlespeed, they say it puts the pure fun back into it.

Hey Buzzbomb where in Metro-Detroit you from? I'm from Ann Arbor

Meh, a lot of pure SKILL has been taken out of mountain biking by high end gadgetry if you ask me. I imagine I could hop on a downhill bike with 8 inches of travel and bomb ass down hill. But there IS a big faction of people riding hardtails, even on the north shore in Canada. I saw a huck on pinkbike where some guy dropped 30 feet on a hardtail... amazing. Suspension just softens the blows, that's all. I don't buy into too much of the hype. I'm a MOUNTAIN biker and that means that occaisionally the trail goes uphill. I'm thinking of buying a burly freeride/urban hardtail because frankly I'm not sure how long my XC steed will hold out. I'm a pretty light guy, so a light hardtail freeride rig would be more suitable for me than some 50 pound monster.

Nathank, I've got the solution..Go faster!! Bwahahahaha!!

j/k

Pete, I'm in Waterford. Heck, we're practically neighbors.

Originally posted by fubar5
Nathank, I've got the solution..Go faster!! Bwahahahaha!!

j/k

Thats what I was going to say. Suspension does let you go faster. While i can ride ANY trail on a ht I would be hard pressed to beat someone who actually know how to ride a dually. They don't have to pick lines (if you are riding a dually and picking lines...don't, let that suspension do some work for you), they can generally maintain a high speed and I definately get smoked in really technical terrain (rock gardens for example).

I definately don't think you need suspension but in the right hands a dually is the faster rig dh.

Hey Jim I have that huck on video (the movie statement) and while that was impressive for sure you should check out his misses. I have never seen such a nasty set of crashes and he crashes often. It is a testiment to riding a ht that he can almost go as big as Wade and them but he won't last long if he keep messing up like that. On big drop having the dually to make up for mistakes sure reduces the crashes haha.

The mechanic at my FBS races XC with a fully rigid singlespeed and doesn't do too badly (ends up finishing in the middle of his pack usually). He's an excellent climber and burns almost everyone on the way up. Coming down is a different story as he has to pick his lines more carefully while the guys on HTs and FS rigs just blast right on through.

I've never done any true downhilling on a full rigid but people used to do it before the age of mass-suspension. Remember that Missy Giove's first downhill race was done on a fully rigid Nishiki Ariel (like I had). I imagine that with some of the really tougher courses (and they have gotten tougher over the years) one would definately be risking some serious injury (even barring crashes) by taking them on constantly on a fully rigid at full race speeds.

Bring it on!!!!!!!! I just love riding HT on rough stuff DH , though i wouldnt mind an FS bike, i still consider the aesthetics of a HT as the aesthetics of a real bike, but thats my opinion and i dont intend to insult FS users as i might end being one myself.

I've got two mountain bike (at the moment). I've got my chi-chi all XTR top of the line everything full suspension freeride bike, and I've got a P.O.S. with spare parts and cheap forks single speed.

That way, depending on my mood I can ride the two extremes!

L8R

Just proves what I keep telling my wife - You can NEVER have too many bikes...

Well, I currently ride a FS rig as a trail bike and a FS for Racing. Gathering parts up for next mtb. Will be a HT, deciding between 4 companies. Specialized, Santa Cruz, 24, Evil.

Are you leaning any one way Danka? And which 24?

I am actually surprised to see Specialized in that category of bike. :)

P3

Ummm...yeah...no offence to anyone who loves specialized but I don't put the p3 in the same category as the pornking or the Imperial.

Nah no problem mate....i dont own the firm...i just own a frame that suits me fine and looks to be with me for long years. (That is ofcourse until i finish my phd and get a job.....then....money no object stuff all the way...5000-6000$ bikes miinimum ,i just hope to have the time to ride 6 hours per week).

you have a choice of the P2 or P1 now, I don't think they make the P3 anymore. I'm looking at the P2 myself, now if only I can find someone to sell it for MSRP.

The P3 is still produced....they didnt sell it in the USA this year. Next year it is coming back.

Originally posted by danka24
Well, I currently ride a FS rig as a trail bike and a FS for Racing. Gathering parts up for next mtb. Will be a HT, deciding between 4 companies. Specialized, Santa Cruz, 24, Evil.

What happened to Giant? Did they tick you off?

Originally posted by Maelstrom
Are you leaning any one way Danka? And which 24?

I am actually surprised to see Specialized in that category of bike. :)

The 24 would be a Pornking.

The one I'm leaning towards is the Santa Cruz Chameleon.

Thats what I was going to say. Suspension does let you go faster. While i can ride ANY trail on a ht I would be hard pressed to beat someone who actually know how to ride a dually. They don't have to pick lines (if you are riding a dually and picking lines...don't, let that suspension do some work for you), they can generally maintain a high speed and I definately get smoked in really technical terrain (rock gardens for example).

I definately don't think you need suspension but in the right hands a dually is the faster rig dh.

yeah, it is clear that a DH rig let's you go faster, but as someone else said, all the high tech gadetry is taking some of the skill out of it... i mean any bozo can bomb down a trail with 150mm of travel if he's got a little courage...

i currently ride a FS, but it's an XC setup (only got 80mm front, 30mm or whatever in the back) and i realize how much more comfortable it is... but even with my limited travel FS i see how much easier it is to bomb trails rather than pick lines and really RIDE with little or no suspension.

by the way, took my bike out of the cellar for yesterday's ride ... and the rear shock is blown, plus the rear shock bushings that i just replaced in mid-May are ALSO toast... i pumped up the rear shock like 4 times during a 3-hr ride and later i did a small wheelie-drop (forgetting i had a leaking shock) and "clang" landed with a shock with like 25psi... so i guess some of my extreme riding is not treating my XC FS so well (the shock bushing lasted 3 months and they cost almost $40!)

anyone, no action soon, but i think i may try and build up a lightweight hardtail or rigid some time and go back to technical riding... (rather than all the newest technology)

I cant believe so many of you think that anybody can bomb down a trail with a little under 6 inches. Depending on the trail yes......but it the trail only really would ever need 6", then I bet that same person can bomb down the trail on a hardtail with a 5" fork.

There is no denying that there is just something so cool about a hardtail with a rigid fork, mech disc brakes, and maybe a 1x9 or 2x9 drive train. The simpler the bike, the more time you will spend riding.

Hey Buzzbomb, why go with a 1x9 or 2x9, go hardcore, full rigid, and a single speed. My buddy got a Redline MonoCog and for the price it's a pretty sweet set-up. He wanted to get a Karate Monkey, but the budget wouldn't allow for it. Me, my ss is one of those $35 steel frames from Nashbar. Built it up with mostly spare parts. Not a bad bike for the money!

L8R

With all the talks of new technology on here, I've been thinking a lot more about how the sport has evolved. This used to be Mountain Biking. Plain and Simple. Now its XC racer, Downhill and Pro Freerider. When you buy a bike now you have to pick you catagory. Its great that bikes have advanced so far, but most are so specific to one type of riding that if you were to take that bike anywhere else the people you ride with would mock you.

These discussions make me feel even stronger that "trail bikes" ie Giant VT, Spec Enduro and others have a very meaningful place in the MTB world. They serve the all around purpose of being able to pretty much handle anything. No they aren't XC race bikes and they aren't full on freeride rigs, but they ride single track well, and you can DH and light freeride on them.

Personally I own an Enduro Comp. When it came time to purchase a new bike I looked at all the riding I do. I don't race anymore so a longer travel FS bike would suit me well for rough XC stuff and doing some drops. The bike doesn't climb as well as some, but I don't like climbing. If I had a bike that climbed like a goat I would still hate climbing. I like highspeed downhill singletrack so having a bike that excelled at that was more important. Whats great is that with a fork swap and possibly better disks I could easily downhill on the same bike.

Originally posted by a2psyklnut
Hey Buzzbomb, why go with a 1x9 or 2x9, go hardcore, full rigid, and a single speed.

Ha! I wouldn't last 2 minutes on an SS. They are cool though...

I would argue that suspension changes the skills needed in riding, not reduces. I basically see two sets of skills: trials skills and downhill skills. Compare a trials rider doing a drop to a freeride/dh rider doing a drop to see the massive differences in approach and attitude. This is reflected in the setup of their bikes.

I personally ride a 130 mm dj hardtail, an 80 mm xc hardtail, and a fixed roadie; but i have definetily lusted over many a dualy (especially the BMW link bike)!

Tastes are tastes. But i fully agree with CopperRS , ok new tech is nice, but this strong categorisation is bad for my liking, personally i like to bomb downhills on a hardtail as i used in the past (12yrs ago) . I dont need a DH rig for that , but i know that if i had one i could push farther given the dual sus thing . Also i dont need an XC racer in order to climb up the mountain that i want to downhill later, my rig will do just fine , even if it takes me 10mins longer to climb. As i dont have the luxury of driving to a trail head , i ride all the bloody way to everywhere , so i need something all around, ups and downs. The thing is that i like the idea of simplicity and i am still a HT lover, though sometimes trendy ads, kranked videos etc tempt me to get a dually. Who knows.

i love my HT as well. I'm actually converting it to a SS with slick tires to use as a commuter, so i can still get some ride time on it.

Originally posted by copper RS
With all the talks of new technology on here, I've been thinking a lot more about how the sport has evolved. This used to be Mountain Biking. Plain and Simple. Now its XC racer, Downhill and Pro Freerider. When you buy a bike now you have to pick you catagory. Its great that bikes have advanced so far, but most are so specific to one type of riding that if you were to take that bike anywhere else the people you ride with would mock you.


My oh my oh my.
Of course bikes have to be purpose built. When you go to buy a bike you think of what you ride the most and choose. If you have enough money and you ride in 2 different categories (downhill and xc), then you buy 2 bikes. Bikes arent THAT specific, especially as specific as having people mock you if you brought the wrong bike. I mean god I dont know what to say, bikes just arent that freaking specific!!!!!!!! Somebody that owns a downhill bike isnt going to ride xc on it with other fast xc guys, and somebody that has a light full suspension xc bike isnt going to ride with the fast downhillers.

Hey Buzzbomb, why go with a 1x9 or 2x9, go hardcore, full rigid, and a single speed.
well i really like the idea of simple and would love to have a singlespeed. actually i am thinking of building up a commuter singlespeed... but for trail riding... i just don't see how it's possible - how the heck do you get up the mountain for extreme steep downhill? (i RIDE up, i don't take a shuttle or a lift) for example for the 2 extreme downhills i did last weekend i climbed 2300meters (7600ft) and 1200meters (4300ft) respectively, both on trails in the 10-25% grade range, part asphalt and part gravel and i needed almost every one of my gears (22x34 is my lowest, and it would have been hard with anything larger than 22x28 as gravel at 25% is not easy - actually i had to walk the last part b/c it included drops/stairs on the UPHILL trail)


Somebody that owns a downhill bike isnt going to ride xc on it with other fast xc guys, and somebody that has a light full suspension xc bike isnt going to ride with the fast downhillers.
i disagree...i know 2 guys who ride rigid who bomb semi-technical trails faster than most of the XC riders with FS, plus i frequently pass (or have to stop and wait for them to clear) freeride/downhillers on major technical downhills (the guys with full armor and 150mm travel) on my XC FS (Specialized FSR with 80mm front, 90mm rear) wearing only my shin protectors. sure i probably COULD ride faster on a true DH bike... my only real concern is that my bike is not really built to take the abuse (today my rear shock got sent back to Fox for the 2nd time)


I would argue that suspension changes the skills needed in riding, not reduces. I basically see two sets of skills: trials skills and downhill skills. Compare a trials rider doing a drop to a freeride/dh rider doing a drop to see the massive differences in approach and attitude. This is reflected in the setup of their bikes.
i would agree that there are SOME different skills associated with riding FS, mainly b/c of the higher speeds, BUT given the same trail it is almost always easier to ride with more suspension and it takes MUCH of the skill out of it. bomb through a rock garden at 20mph on a FS rig and then try it on a rigid: the FS you can just sit back and the suspension does the work, on the rigid if you don't pull up the front end and pick a good line you're gonna crash!

anyway, all i was saying at the beginning is that I personally don't want all the technology to do the work for me (yes, FS is more comfortable and i like durably and i'm not being anti-technology or anything) but i want a simple bike that has less to break and requires lots of skill to ride ---- as i said i have a really hard time finding trails that are REALLY challenging on my XC FS. where would i ride if i had MORE suspension?

Originally posted by KleinMp99
My oh my oh my.
Of course bikes have to be purpose built. When you go to buy a bike you think of what you ride the most and choose. If you have enough money and you ride in 2 different categories (downhill and xc), then you buy 2 bikes. Bikes arent THAT specific, especially as specific as having people mock you if you brought the wrong bike. I mean god I dont know what to say, bikes just arent that freaking specific!!!!!!!! Somebody that owns a downhill bike isnt going to ride xc on it with other fast xc guys, and somebody that has a light full suspension xc bike isnt going to ride with the fast downhillers.

you're statement just proves my point :rolleyes: Mt biking has evolved from off road cycling to many forms of riding and in order to participate in "Mountian Biking" you HAVE to pick a catagory. You're not going to buy a trials bike to ride singletrack and you aren't going to buy a DH bike to do it either. No where in my previous post did I say this was a BAD thing. But you saying that bikes "aren't that specific " or "arent that freaking specific!!!!!!!!" is incorrect. Look at the geometries of each style I mentioned, hell look at each style bike as a whole. THEY AREN'T EVEN CLOSE TO BEING THE SAME.

what is a rigid bike? I have been hearing alot about that

a rigid bike is one without suspension - front or rear - i.e. a road bike or an old mtb bike.

for trails riding it is much more challenging as you have no front suspension and have to lift the front wheel for everything and "feel" all the bumbs.

hardtail is front suspension only.
full suspension or dual suspension or dually is suspension front and rear.

I just really dont know how or why I am arguing about this. In saying they arent "that specific", I mean that you can use a wide range of bikes to ride in the same category. There is always the Extreme DH, Technical XC with lots of climbing, Road, and Trials which almost DEMAND a certain bike to keep up with good riders in each category. But at the same time there is freeriding, light DH, urban, "road" and other categories in which a wide range of bikes can be used. For freeride you can use anything from a rigid, to a long travel DH bike. Urban, you can use a BMX to a....long travel DH bike. Road.....well anything can be ridden on the road really but i'll say a hybrid to a 17lb road bike. If your really going to be getting into any of the categories hardcore though, you will want a more purpose built bike.

Lallaaa Lalala lala

Just started out DH and i own a XC Cube Analog Disc.


Yes first time it was hard. The trail itself wasnt so extreme, but its a rocky mountain with loads of "rock gardens" in a steep radius.

For me it was hard to keep my weight properly backwards because of the length of the steering neck - too long and suitted for XC.

Today im upgrade to a 40-50mm neck with a 70cm/5 rise handlebar.

Will give it more goes and see if things get better.

If its working i plan to upgrade to a 140 variable fork for more absorption.

But my friends on DH rings they just went over the rocks not really slowing down , while me, with my very little experience i had to slow down - slowing down most times makes things very dangerous and more unstable - and pick easier lines whenever was possible.

http://community.oclc.org/hecticpace/img/bring-out-your-dead.jpg
"Bring out your dead."

http://image.spreadshirt.com/image-server/image/composition/2048840/view/1/producttypecolor/2/type/png/width/280/height/280/i-m-not-dead-yet-t-shirt_design.png

"Bring out your dead."C'mon, ed, bring out the clip:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sh8mNjeuyV4

:roflmao2:You guys really know how to derail a thread that's going nowhere

Just give it some time, it'll pick up.

Just give it some time, it'll pick up.Yup . . . that's what it needs to do . . . gain some steam . . .

http://www.myunusual.com/Pix/Accidents%20pix/Gonna%20Hurt/train%20wreck.jpg

Yup . . . that's what it needs to do . . . gain some steam . . .

http://www.myunusual.com/Pix/Accidents%20pix/Gonna%20Hurt/train%20wreck.jpg

speaking of which, the dude at my LBS mentioned today that the aluminum slide rails on the Yeti 303 need to be greased after each ride. is that true?

After every day's riding. Clean the rail and car then use the syringe they provide to pump the zerk with fresh grease and you're good for the next day. Yeah, it's another maintenance step but doesn't take that long. When I'm doing it at home, air compressor speeds the process.

Oh, and the rail isn't aluminum - - it's case-hardened carbon steel.

Oh, and the rail isn't aluminum - - it's case-hardened carbon steel.

Oooohhhh - and this whole time I thought it was atomically hardened unobtainium. Looks like it was built on the cheap......

Oooohhhh - and this whole time I thought it was atomically hardened unobtainium. Looks like it was built on the cheap......Y'know, I think there was the optional rail with molybdenum-impregnated hard-coating over unobtanium with a graphite/carbon fiber core - - but it added a couple thousand to the frame-only price ;).