Advocacy & Safety - traffic argument rebutting

So I had a 2nd mild road rage incident today in a little less than a full year of commuting (they happen much less frequently than this board originally led me to believe).

Basically the guy honked at me 3 times while I riding, pulled up next to me at a red light and told me that I should let cars pass me. I told him no, that I was allowed to use the lane, and there was another lane going in the same direction anyway. He told me not to act to tough, to which I simply reinstated that I'm allowed to use the lane. He drove off and muttered something that I couldn't hear. Probably "**** you, you think you own the road, but you're wrong, I own the road."

Anyway this got me thinking... A red light doesn't give you much time, but it certainly does allow for short conversations (most of the ones I've had were much more pleasant). So I was wondering what sort of calm, rational arguments can be offered to the drivers who initiate these kinds of idea exchanges. Obviously, they also need to fall into the category of "elevator speech" regarding time.

For example, my personal favorite is "you dont pay taxes" to which I think kin kifer's response is best: "public property can be used by anyone, regardless of who pays for it."

Thanks everyone, I hope to get some good insight out of this.

So I had a 2nd mild road rage incident today in a little less than a full year of commuting (they happen much less frequently than this board originally led me to believe).

I get that on every single ride. Consider yourself very fortunate!

... Brad

I get that on every single ride. Consider yourself very fortunate!

... Brad

that sucks, dude. But I have found that after both of these incidents, my confidence in riding has actually increased. So I think the more it happens, the quicker I'd learn how to manage the situation effectively and thats one of the reasons why I started this thread.

Although according to my theory, all that road rage experience should make you like the james bond of commuting.

Bullet point comments: "I have a right to the use of the lane. It is safer for me to ride in the lane where I was riding. You can pass me safely in the other lane. There is no problem here. Have a nice day"

I've seen posts on forums by cyclists who actually carry motorist education fliers and give them to people at stop lights (or put them under the wiper).

I once initiated a conversation with one who almost hit me racing to a red light. I was able to explain my right to be in the lane, the three foot rule, and the silliness of endangering me to get to the red light first... the conversation even ended with pleasantries, well before the light changed. I only hope it has a lasting effect.

If you ever have the chance for a longer conversation about who pays for the roads, there's a great post on the FBA blog (http://flabicycle.blogspot.com/2007/09/whose-roads-who-pays.html) to arm you with info.

Seriously, you guys really ought to stop posting about all the problems that result from "taking the lane". I mean, I think it's funnier than hell, but it really isn't helping your cause.

Seriously, you guys really ought to stop posting about all the problems that result from "taking the lane". I mean, I think it's funnier than hell, but it really isn't helping your cause.

Very true. The 'problem' is that 99%+ of riding is totally uneventful and makes for zero interest BF discussion. Those rare 1-2x per year incidents are far more engaging to discuss. Of cousre there are often another 10x per year positive/sappy experiences discussed too, most often on the commuting forum.

So much like local TV news.

Al

So I had a 2nd mild road rage incident today in a little less than a full year of commuting (they happen much less frequently than this board originally led me to believe).

Basically the guy honked at me 3 times while I riding, pulled up next to me at a red light and told me that I should let cars pass me. I told him no, that I was allowed to use the lane, and there was another lane going in the same direction anyway. He told me not to act to tough, to which I simply reinstated that I'm allowed to use the lane. He drove off and muttered something that I couldn't hear. Probably "**** you, you think you own the road, but you're wrong, I own the road."

Anyway this got me thinking... A red light doesn't give you much time, but it certainly does allow for short conversations (most of the ones I've had were much more pleasant). So I was wondering what sort of calm, rational arguments can be offered to the drivers who initiate these kinds of idea exchanges. Obviously, they also need to fall into the category of "elevator speech" regarding time.

For example, my personal favorite is "you dont pay taxes" to which I think kin kifer's response is best: "public property can be used by anyone, regardless of who pays for it."

Thanks everyone, I hope to get some good insight out of this.
I wouldn't bother. This was recently posted on the chainguard VC advocacy yahoo group:



...
One poster even said there is no way he can communicate with an
unsafe passer unless he can catch up to him at the next traffic light.
What's the point of that? With all the uneducated bike-passers in the
world, one might as well go about swatting mosquitos in a swamp.

There is a time and a place to educate drivers, and a time and place to
cycle. Rarely is there a time and place to do both. The only
information I want to impart on a driver behind me is to let him know
that I am aware of him, and that I will accommodate his passing as
soon as it is safe for me to do so. Once he is past me, if he was rude or
unsafe, I just want him to continue distancing himself from me.

There are plenty of battles to fight. I like to pick mine, and to seek
harmony everywhere else.

A 30 second red light is plenty of time to whip out your manhood and ask the person in the car if they think it resembles a turtles neck.
That usually ends all talking right then and there.

So I had a 2nd mild road rage incident today in a little less than a full year of commuting (they happen much less frequently than this board originally led me to believe).

Basically the guy honked at me 3 times while I riding, pulled up next to me at a red light and told me that I should let cars pass me. I told him no, that I was allowed to use the lane, and there was another lane going in the same direction anyway. He told me not to act to tough, to which I simply reinstated that I'm allowed to use the lane. He drove off and muttered something that I couldn't hear. Probably "**** you, you think you own the road, but you're wrong, I own the road."

Anyway this got me thinking... A red light doesn't give you much time, but it certainly does allow for short conversations (most of the ones I've had were much more pleasant). So I was wondering what sort of calm, rational arguments can be offered to the drivers who initiate these kinds of idea exchanges. Obviously, they also need to fall into the category of "elevator speech" regarding time.

For example, my personal favorite is "you dont pay taxes" to which I think kin kifer's response is best: "public property can be used by anyone, regardless of who pays for it."

Thanks everyone, I hope to get some good insight out of this.

None. I have never had a calm rational conversation with anyone at a stop sign or stoplight. Their minds are made up and so is yours.

I have had calm rational conversations in parking lots however. The point being that if you approach someone, you should be calm and rational about it, and be prepared to illustrate your points with a flyer or card that outlines the point of law you want them to be aware of... otherwise it is simply he said/they said.

I made up and carry small cards that have the CA laws, that pertain to cycling, printed on them.

Regarding "you don't pay taxes," it depends on your area, but in most areas, home owners pay taxes that contribute to the construction and maintenance of public streets; motorists pay only a small share of gas tax that generally goes to interstate freeways... which cyclists don't use. But there is no way to convey that argument in a 1 or 2 minute red light.

Of course a quick snappy comeback is always "Would Jesus drive like that?"

Unless it's someone asking for directions or paying me a compliment, I don't respond to comments made by people in cars. Why bother? Maybe I'm cynical, but nothing good ever comes out of these kinds of conversations.

Unless it's someone asking for directions or paying me a compliment, I don't respond to comments made by people in cars. Why bother? Maybe I'm cynical, but nothing good ever comes out of these kinds of conversations.

+1

The only response I give anymore is "If you think I am breaking a law, call the police."

What ever happened to the clean, simple, "F*** you..."?

Actually, if someone did attempt to demand that I get off the road (it hasn't happened for over a year now, and at a stop light, only once in my life back around 8 years ago), I'd just ask: "Who the hell are you?" And leave it at that.

Truthfully, you might as well just say 'F*** You' or 'Have A Nice Day' depending upon your preference. I think either of those will change the opinion of the driver in the exact same manner as a well thought out response or rebuttal. In other words, neither approach will have any effect whatsoever on the thinking of the driver.

Save your breath for the ride.

Just smiles. These folks are not generally receptive to learning.

I do curse at folks, but for my own good which always happens to be when they are out of earshot.

I communicate intents and direct and give positive feedback to other drivers heavily while commuting - signals, waves, thanks you's, etc. That will do more to show folks that I am doing what I am doing with purpose and being thoughtful about my place in traffic vs. some mutterings in an attempt to be explain while trying to adjust from a 'cycling in traffic' mindset to a 'talking' mindset, which ends up more like "uhh, what your problem, i'm, i'm, its the legal, uuhh, umm, no, uhh, thats dangerous, you move."

Al

I had a guy honk at me once while I was walking my bike across a pedestrian cross walk one early morning.
I was in the mood to fight so I walked up to his car - he rolled the window down - right as I was about to let loose a most evil spell of profanity on him all I could think about was how much this guy looks like John Holm; the 70's long curly hair, the thick moustache... it was too much. So all I said (in a loud voice of course) was "what the **** are you, the ghost of John Holms?". He must have gotten it right away because he started laughing about as hard as a clown on crack, then I started laughing, then he apologized and said he was having a bad morning. We exchanged a pleasantry or two and then off we went our seperate ways.

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

I don't really have problems with cars, but if somebody honks, I wave in a really funny, big, happy way. Don't bother debating car-idiots.

Seriously, you guys really ought to stop posting about all the problems that result from "taking the lane". I mean, I think it's funnier than hell, but it really isn't helping your cause.

Where do you ride where every road is wide enough to share? It sounds idyllic.

+1

The only response I give anymore is "If you think I am breaking a law, call the police."

That works till you get "I am the police." (Happened to me once.)

Of course a quick snappy comeback is always "Would Jesus drive like that?"

I had a dad honk repeatedly at me one Sunday morning, in a spot where he could have easily passed. After he had "made his point" and passed me, I saw him, wife & 2 kids all dressed up in Sunday best. About 1.5 miles up the road, I saw this family walking into the church doors. All I could think of was the irony.

That works till you get "I am the police." (Happened to me once.)

Then you would respond "then write me a ticket"

I had one spitting mad at me a couple years back, and he WOULD NOT write me a ticket. And he kept wanting to know if my camera was on ( it was) and why the woman in the car behind me had a camera ( we were making a video).
I thought he was going to blow a gasket. I know he wanted to beat me.

That works till you get "I am the police." (Happened to me once.)

Retort to that is (especially if the cop is off-duty and in mufti): "Since you are a police officer, perhaps you ought to have more than a passing familiarity with the law."

People can say anything they want and unless they prove it by producing a badge, warrant card etc. they can get stuffed.

Of course a quick snappy comeback is always "Would Jesus drive like that?"

In my list of top ten bumperstickers of all time: "Jesus would have used his turn signal" :D

Seriously, you guys really ought to stop posting about all the problems that result from "taking the lane". I mean, I think it's funnier than hell, but it really isn't helping your cause.

More often than not, my taking the lane at a red light has the positive result of avoiding right-hooks. I've made up a "baseball" game where I count how many cars immediately in front of me (remember I'm in the center taking my space) plus immediately in back of me turn right, while I go straight. That's the number of potential right-hooks I've successfully avoided by taking the lane. Refer to 1 as a single, 2 double, etc. and you've got a mildly entertaining traffic game.

Is that positive enough for you? :rolleyes:

One of my favorite suggestions from folks here, although I've yet to need it myself, is in response to "Get on the sidewalk!". Reply: "The side what?"

More often than not, my taking the lane at a red light has the positive result of avoiding right-hooks. I've made up a "baseball" game where I count how many cars immediately in front of me (remember I'm in the center taking my space) plus immediately in back of me turn right, while I go straight. That's the number of potential right-hooks I've successfully avoided by taking the lane. Refer to 1 as a single, 2 double, etc. and you've got a mildly entertaining traffic game.

Is that positive enough for you?
Hey, I have zero doubt that "taking the lane" makes you safer, faster, and better looking. I just think it's funny that this place has so many threads along the lines of "Hey, I was riding in the middle of the lane and blocking traffic, and something bad happened to me! What's up with that?".

Hey, I have zero doubt that "taking the lane" makes you safer, faster, and better looking. I just think it's funny that this place has so many threads along the lines of "Hey, I was riding in the middle of the lane and blocking traffic, and something bad happened to me! What's up with that?".
I see more threads about [I was not taking the lane] and I got doored, right hooked, close passed, bottle thrown at me, driver pulled out in front of me, left hook, etc. Even more so in other sub-forums than A&S.

The worst I hear from folks taking the lane are being yelled at or honked at.

Which do you prefer?

Al

So I was wondering what sort of calm, rational arguments can be offered to the drivers who initiate these kinds of idea exchanges. Obviously, they also need to fall into the category of "elevator speech" regarding time.


Keep a few copies of the relevant state regulations, perhaps with some diagrams, and politely hand one to them.

Seriously, you guys really ought to stop posting about all the problems that result from "taking the lane". I mean, I think it's funnier than hell, but it really isn't helping your cause.

Taking the lane is the safest way to ride a bicycle when the lane is narrow.

If we followed your advice and rode 6 inches from the curb on narrow lanes, you'd see lots of posts about getting run off the road or hit by mirrors.

Truthfully, you might as well just say 'F*** You' or 'Have A Nice Day' depending upon your preference. I think either of those will change the opinion of the driver in the exact same manner as a well thought out response or rebuttal. In other words, neither approach will have any effect whatsoever on the thinking of the driver.

Save your breath for the ride.
While a polite discussion about the laws may do no good, swearing at the person will accomplish nothing positive. It'll most likely just convince the person that cyclists are azzholes. Perhaps this is a time to remember that if you've got nothing good to say, say nothing at all...

I see more threads about [I was not taking the lane] and I got doored, right hooked, close passed, bottle thrown at me, driver pulled out in front of me, left hook, etc. Even more so in other sub-forums than A&S.


We see what we want to see, I think.

Taking the lane is the safest way to ride a bicycle when the lane is narrow.

If we followed your advice and rode 6 inches from the curb on narrow lanes, you'd see lots of posts about getting run off the road or hit by mirrors.

Then I'll repeat my request for empirical evidence.

@piper_chuck:
Why do I care if people think I'm an azzhole? Especially when the alternatives are:

1) skinny ass (I wish, ;)) wuss. (saying nothing) OR
2) pedantic jerk (handing out a preprepared speech or position paper)

This is not an "education" thing - it's about being respected as adults. The worse threat to us in our dealings with motorists is that they treat cyclists as objects rather than people. Best defense is, if insulted, insult right back. Being passivist or pedantic just makes all cyclists out to be less than human; we appear as either moving roadblocks or stereotypical dweebs (who are subhuman by definition, remember?) respectively.

You want to be treated as an equal? Take what they dish and throw it right back. "F*** You!!!" says, in shorthand: "I don't give a sh** about what you think of me. I'm doing what I'm allowed, just trying to get to work (or wherever) just the same as you are. So, f*** off." If the motorist escalates, it's on his or her conscience and society has rules for dealing with that too.

So motorists will think you're subhuman until you tell them to @#$! off, at which point they'll begin to respect you?

Well, it's no more ridiculous than "You should ride in front of traffic in order to be safe", I guess. :lol:

^^^
Incorrect. Most motorists see cyclists as human. This is the only reason why cyclists can ride on the road in the first place (ever read the "Spike Bike" tale?). But when a motorist dishes abuse, clearly, he is not treating the cyclist as an adult person. Taking it or becoming pedantic doesn't help things.

And you are wrong about your position regarding lane sharing. There are times to take a lane and at those times, yes, it is definitely safer to ride in front of traffic then to let them pass.

Hey, I have zero doubt that "taking the lane" makes you safer, faster, and better looking. I just think it's funny that this place has so many threads along the lines of "Hey, I was riding in the middle of the lane and blocking traffic, and something bad happened to me! What's up with that?".

Actually have you noticed that the "something bad happening" was generally just being yelled at or honked at?

The rants are simply because motorists just go on believing they actually do own the road.

If you ever have the chance for a longer conversation about who pays for the roads, there's a great post on the FBA blog (http://flabicycle.blogspot.com/2007/09/whose-roads-who-pays.html) to arm you with info.

I had a transportation engineering professor in college who said that, on average, it takes approximately 40,000 (forty thou, not a typo) passenger cars to damage the roadway as much as one fully loaded 18-wheeler. So... at less than 10% the weight of a sedan, a cyclist must contribute nearly nothing when it comes to creating expensive road construction. Tax benefit?:)

This thread reminds me of last December while taking the lane at a stoplight, I saw and heard a window rolling down to my left. As my heartbeat increased in bracing for the coming verbal abuse, and witty responses running through my head, I looked over and an elderly couple smiled, waved, and in unison chimed "Merry Christmas!" Jaw dropped I waved back. Friendliness is fun.

Let the anger go; it won't solve the problem at hand.

If I think it's applicable, I'll give the motorist a copy of the free pamplet my state puts out which shows the state code for bikes & cars. I keep several handy in the top pocket of my bag. There is no denying the right of a cyclist at that point. Or I'll simply say, sorry my safety and right to be in the road caused you to lose 15 seconds in your day. In the past I've said, how about I find out where you live and buzz your kids when they are in the street? Childish? Yes, but I've gotten some quisical/alarmed looks when I've said it. Makes them think about what driving like that can do.

@piper_chuck:
Why do I care if people think I'm an azzhole? Especially when the alternatives are:

1) skinny ass (I wish, ;)) wuss. (saying nothing) OR
2) pedantic jerk (handing out a preprepared speech or position paper)

This is not an "education" thing - it's about being respected as adults. The worse threat to us in our dealings with motorists is that they treat cyclists as objects rather than people. Best defense is, if insulted, insult right back. Being passivist or pedantic just makes all cyclists out to be less than human; we appear as either moving roadblocks or stereotypical dweebs (who are subhuman by definition, remember?) respectively.

You want to be treated as an equal? Take what they dish and throw it right back. "F*** You!!!" says, in shorthand: "I don't give a sh** about what you think of me. I'm doing what I'm allowed, just trying to get to work (or wherever) just the same as you are. So, f*** off." If the motorist escalates, it's on his or her conscience and society has rules for dealing with that too.
Sure, whatever. History has shown what happens when people choose to escalate.

Do you think swearing at someone, when they didn't even swear at you, is going to get you respect? Will swearing at someone who is wrong, but doesn't know any better, help them overcome their ignorance? The answer to both questions is no. It's just going to convince the motorist that you're an azzhole. They will have even less respect for you than before the encounter.

I usually open with "what's the problem?" unless they have already stated their issue. At that point, I explain that I was riding where I was or doing what I was doing because it's the safest way to do it. IME, "I have a right to use the lane" is much less effective than "statistically, it's far less dangerous to ride in the street than on the sidewalk". If the continue behaving like a spoiled child, I tell them to **** off and look straight ahead till the light turns. I do the same thing when my kids throw a fit except I don't tell them to **** off before ignoring them. ;)

Sure, whatever. History has shown what happens when people choose to escalate.

Yes, of course. Hid in the corner. That's what all the greats did, isn't it. Why am I morally responsible for the unprovoked harm or potential harm that others perpetrate on me.


Do you think swearing at someone, when they didn't even swear at you, is going to get you respect? Will swearing at someone who is wrong, but doesn't know any better, help them overcome their ignorance? The answer to both questions is no. It's just going to convince the motorist that you're an azzhole. They will have even less respect for you than before the encounter.

Swearing is the universal way of indicating to the ignorant that what they did was wrong. If they believe they are right, they are mistaken, and it is their responsibility to not be mistaken.

But, do you really think that ignorance is the basic issue here?

I don't. I believe it is general meanness and bullying. Why do I believe this? Because >99% of motorists don't attempt to screw with me or be mean to me, and 90% of that 99% are also ignorant of the exact laws pertaining to cyclists. So what makes this <1% different than the ~90% of the other ignorants? They are mean and they are bullies.

I am not trying to gain their respect, I am stating that I am a person, and assulting me on a bike has all the consequences of assulting a person walking down the street. If I am an azzhole, then so be it. They attempted to screw with me; I respond in kind.

You see, you are worried about people making mistakes around you and cutting things close. I'm not. I can generally protect myself against these people and a simple "WTF?!" gesture shows them that they are wrong. It is the people who are mean and who are bullies that I am worried about. From these people, there is no riding style which can protect you against them. So you have to hold your ground on a personal level to get through to them.

Swearing is the universal way of indicating to the ignorant that what they did was wrong. If they believe they are right, they are mistaken, and it is their responsibility to not be mistaken.


:D:D:D:D:D:D:D That's by far the funniest and most ridiculous thing I think I've ever read here.
Great stuff. Really. Keep it coming. :D

Actually have you noticed that the "something bad happening" was generally just being yelled at or honked at?

Well, that and traffic tickets.

So between the honking, the yelling, and the fines, I'm still not seeing the advantages. Yeah, I hear a lot about how VCers avoid getting close passed, right-hooked, etc., but then so do I, and I'm not interfering with traffic.

So the VC argument, at least in my situation, amounts to "Well, you can ride around on the shoulder and in the bike lane and not get close-passed or right-hooked or whatever, or you can ride in the middle of the street with the same results, except for pissing a lot of people off and getting honks, yells, and tickets."

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D That's by far the funniest and most ridiculous thing I think I've ever read here.
Great stuff. Really. Keep it coming. :D

Glad you liked it... :)

But really. Say you are working on your house with your friend, and he makes a newbie mistake and almost takes your head off with a ladder as he turns around; "almost" as in you are preparing your nose for a lesson in crookedness. Honestly now... what are the first words out of your mouth and does it or does it not contain a high proportion of blue?

About ten years ago I decided that my dirty mouth made me sound like an idiot. So now "blue", for me, is stuff like "Gosh darn it!". It's become so natural that it's actually what I say on impulse, like when I burn myself or something. Pretty square, I know, but there you go.

As for what I say to people in cars who've mistreated me? Well, I don't ride in the middle of the road, so I don't really remember the last time I had a confrontation. As a hot-headed teenager I'm sure I said and did some of the things you mention.

But then I grew up. :p

That works till you get "I am the police." (Happened to me once.)

And then what happened? It's pretty hard to get cited in the Treasure Valley for anything short of running a light or not having a headlight at night.

And then what happened?
He stopped ahead of us and motioned me next to his car. He said his bit about bikes have to be to the right and how was he to pass if we take the lane and I said my bit about parking lanes, door zones and lanes too narrow to share and that there was another lane he could use to pass just like what he is going to have to do around the double parked car up ahead and that was it. Nice polite conversation over all.

"I have a right to the use of the lane. It is safer for me to ride in the lane where I was riding. You can pass me safely in the other lane. There is no problem here. Have a nice day"jedi mind tricks don't work on JAMs
http://members.tripod.com/~RodneyT/jabbaP.jpg

Yes, of course. Hid in the corner. That's what all the greats did, isn't it. Why am I morally responsible for the unprovoked harm or potential harm that others perpetrate on me.



Swearing is the universal way of indicating to the ignorant that what they did was wrong. If they believe they are right, they are mistaken, and it is their responsibility to not be mistaken.

But, do you really think that ignorance is the basic issue here?

I don't. I believe it is general meanness and bullying. Why do I believe this? Because >99% of motorists don't attempt to screw with me or be mean to me, and 90% of that 99% are also ignorant of the exact laws pertaining to cyclists. So what makes this <1% different than the ~90% of the other ignorants? They are mean and they are bullies.

I am not trying to gain their respect, I am stating that I am a person, and assulting me on a bike has all the consequences of assulting a person walking down the street. If I am an azzhole, then so be it. They attempted to screw with me; I respond in kind.

You see, you are worried about people making mistakes around you and cutting things close. I'm not. I can generally protect myself against these people and a simple "WTF?!" gesture shows them that they are wrong. It is the people who are mean and who are bullies that I am worried about. From these people, there is no riding style which can protect you against them. So you have to hold your ground on a personal level to get through to them.

In other words, to a bully you must act like a bully.