Specialized fan, rising oil prices could affect you in other ways as well. As fuel prices keep on rising, properties in the suburbs or far from downtown areas could drop in value. They won't be as desirable when the cost of driving back and forth is factored in. So if you're looking for a place in the suburbs, you could get a good deal. The problem is nobody know exactly how high fuel prices will have to rise before affecting the choice of a home.

I would think that if I was a suburban homeowner I would be squirming right now....:o Imagine paying down that 350,000 mortgage when the value of your property drops 20, 40, 80,000 bucks? sure hope it makes people think a little....

I think that many people would would give up their over-priced house before they gave up their car.

I'm not sure whether to laugh :roflmao:
or be shocked :eek: at this....kinda serves some people right though.

I would think that if I was a suburban homeowner I would be squirming right now....:o Imagine paying down that 350,000 mortgage when the value of your property drops 20, 40, 80,000 bucks? sure hope it makes people think a little....

I am one of those hated suburban home owners and no I'm not in any danger of losing my house, as I didn't sign up for one of those sub prime mortgages. You must not know much about real estate if you think a house would drop from 350,000 clear down to 80,000, maybe if we were in a depression, witch we are not even close.
I am surprised I have hung around here so long aside from the fact you're poor mans doom and gloom is just so amusing, I can't believe people actually think like this. I can sum it up to cars and people who drive them are evil and bad thing should happen to them because they drive cars or are prosperous.I am just glad you guys aren't in power as we would be going back to the stone age to cure a a problem that we have nothing to do with as it is a cycle that we barely understand, but it has to be the SUV;s fault so lets punish all SUV owners and people with means. I guess this has the fasination of a plane crash as you just cant stop staring at it and wondering how it happened.

I am one of those hated suburban home owners and no I'm not in any danger of losing my house, as I didn't sign up for one of those sub prime mortgages. You must not know much about real estate if you think a house would drop from 350,000 clear down to 80,000, maybe if we were in a depression, witch we are not even close.
I am surprised I have hung around here so long aside from the fact you're poor mans doom and gloom is just so amusing, I can't believe people actually think like this. I can sum it up to cars and people who drive them are evil and bad thing should happen to them because they drive cars or are prosperous.I am just glad you guys aren't in power as we would be going back to the stone age to cure a a problem that we have nothing to do with as it is a cycle that we barely understand, but it has to be the SUV;s fault so lets punish all SUV owners and people with means. I guess this has the fasination of a plane crash as you just cant stop staring at it and wondering how it happened.

http://esl.about.com/od/englishgrammar/a/a_punctuation.htm

I am one of those hated suburban home owners and no I'm not in any danger of losing my house, as I didn't sign up for one of those sub prime mortgages. You must not know much about real estate if you think a house would drop from 350,000 clear down to 80,000, maybe if we were in a depression, witch we are not even close.
I am surprised I have hung around here so long aside from the fact you're poor mans doom and gloom is just so amusing, I can't believe people actually think like this. I can sum it up to cars and people who drive them are evil and bad thing should happen to them because they drive cars or are prosperous.I am just glad you guys aren't in power as we would be going back to the stone age to cure a a problem that we have nothing to do with as it is a cycle that we barely understand, but it has to be the SUV;s fault so lets punish all SUV owners and people with means. I guess this has the fasination of a plane crash as you just cant stop staring at it and wondering how it happened.

He never said it would drop TO $80,000. He said it could drop BY $80,000. About a 22% drop, and not entirely out of the question, if what they're saying about a correction in the housing market is true.

So... you also seem to have reading comprehension issues. That's not entirely surprising, considering your sentence structure and grammar. ;)

http://esl.about.com/od/englishgrammar/a/a_punctuation.htm

Typical Liberal response, can't debate anything just attack, oh well This was a learning experience. We will just have to agree to dis agree, and good luck in getting those evil SUV's off the road.

I am one of those hated suburban home owners and no I'm not in any danger of losing my house, as I didn't sign up for one of those sub prime mortgages. You must not know much about real estate if you think a house would drop from 350,000 clear down to 80,000, maybe if we were in a depression, witch we are not even close.

To reiterate what I said earlier, if fuel prices continue to skyrocket, suburban houses will be less desirable. Potential homeowners will factor the cost of the commute into the cost of home ownership. As fuel costs continue to jump, it will become more and more desirable to live close to amenities. Those who live close to urban areas will have an advantage as will those who live and work in much smaller communities. Those who live in distant suburbs and are far from work, shopping and other amenities will be the most directly affected by rising fuel costs. That's what will make those areas less desirable in the future.

If you're happy in the suburbs and don't want to move, then by all means stay where you are. From what you've said, you're easily able to meet your expenses and you don't seem at all worried about your own income if the economy goes sour. You're in great financial shape. If you're enjoying your lifestyle and if it works for you, keep it. If that lifestyle involves keeping your SUV and hauling your bikes to the trail, then do that as well.

But you're on the Living Car Free section of Bike Forums. Most of us here are interested in becoming car-free or car-light. These are choices we're choosing to make for ourselves. For a variety of reasons, we want to drive as little as possible, if we drive at all. This is our choice and we don't expect the rest of the world to follow suit. However, if you're not at all interested in a car-free or car-light lifestyle, why are you hanging out here?

Why have the mods not taken action on Specialized Fan? He is someone who is coming into a car-free forum, who has absolutely no intention of ever reducing his dependence in his car and adds NOTHING worthwhile to the conversation. He's one of the worst trolls I've ever seen, and he should not be given access to this forum.

I am not agreeing with the Specialized Fan, but it is good to defend your ideals from time to time. Complacency and agreement give us nothing but the status quo and by being challenged to defend your ideals, you may follow one of two courses: 1. reinforce what you so strongly believe or 2. change your ideas because a better argument allows you to see another side of the story.
My2cents,
S

Typical Liberal response, can't debate anything just attack, oh well This was a learning experience. We will just have to agree to dis agree, and good luck in getting those evil SUV's off the road.

I'll debate when you post something worthy of it. I mean, seriously, this drivel is just so stupid and imcomprehensible that it warrants precious little repsonse:

"I am surprised I have hung around here so long aside from the fact you're poor mans doom and gloom is just so amusing, I can't believe people actually think like this. I can sum it up to cars and people who drive them are evil and bad thing should happen to them because they drive cars or are prosperous."

And when have I ever posted anything negative about SUV's? You're assuming. Typical conservative...

Now, go be a good boy and ride your bike on the sidewalk facing traffic.

I'm sure some of the people who come to LCF with a chip on their shoulder are confrontation addicts looking for a good fight. Others, well, I wonder if they are merely trying to shore up some internal doubts about their own lifestyle choices.

We've had a fair number of folks come through LCF who've been shocked, shocked! to read the subversive ideas that are discussed here. After a while it's funny to watch.

We've also seen the reverse. Super hot, pure-minded carfree advocates who one day drive up in a new SUV and bid us farewell. That's the way humans are. You just gotta have a sense of humor!

Here in the UK on Monday, we had a 2p (4c) per liter tax rise on gas. Listening to the phone-in about it on the local radio, the overwhelming opinion of the masses is that "we have a right to drive cars". There would be more protests in the streets (as we had over high gas prices a few years ago) and governments would lose power over this issue long before it was accepted that not everyone is going to be able to drive as often and as freely as they do now. The car is so engrained into our lifestyle that to imagine life without it is simply beyond most people. I suspect that most US citizens have a similar perspective.

The idea of taxing individuals fuel is workable - we have a version of it here where farmers diesel is stained red and sold at a vastly reduced tax rate. Any vehicles gas tank can be dipped to see if it's using red diesel and punishment will follow if found. As far as i know it works well and i can't see why it couldn't be expanded to include commercial vehicles.

Good thread.

as long as a community has mass transit, trains for longer distances; being dependent upon a bike is not a liability, it's fun. and good for you. Let the car set in the garage and only use it on special ocassions, is how i'd like life to be.

as long as a community has mass transit, trains for longer distances; being dependent upon a bike is not a liability, it's fun. and good for you. Let the car set in the garage and only use it on special ocassions, is how i'd like life to be.
Those communities without mass transit or with inadequate transit are an entirely different matter. Unless governments make it a priority to provide transit services, a car-free lifestyle will be difficult if not impossible for some.

Maybe even the use of taxi cabs for trips impossible to use the bike for - is cheaper than purchasing a car, maintenance , gas and insurance?

Typical Liberal response, can't debate anything just attack, oh well This was a learning experience. We will just have to agree to dis agree, and good luck in getting those evil SUV's off the road.

i agree. grammar and punctuation are part of the vast left-wing conspiracy. But us real americans ain't gonna take it anymore!

`snip~

The idea of taxing individuals fuel is workable - we have a version of it here where farmers diesel is stained red and sold at a vastly reduced tax rate. Any vehicles gas tank can be dipped to see if it's using red diesel and punishment will follow if found. As far as i know it works well and i can't see why it couldn't be expanded to include commercial vehicles.

Good thread.

We have that here too. We call it "off road" diesel. Major penalties if you get caught using it for anything but off road/agricultural equipment. IIRC in my area the price difference is around 30 cents a gallon less for the dyed stuff. I like the bio when I can find it, my truck runs much better on B80 than regular dinodiesel...but then you are cutting into the food supply again.

Aaron:)

...I think that many people would would give up their over-priced house before they gave up their car.
Roger that. At our apartment complex last night we spotted an apparent homeless person with a pickup (mattress in the back). He was parking in our lot and camping in the greenbelt out back. He might have gone unchallenged except his two dogs (pit bull & some mongrel kind of terrier) were freely roaming the apartment complex. The terrier charged at me and my SO late last night so we started investigating. Son confronted the culprit this morning and he said he was leaving. Left in a hurry, leaving behind a gas can.

This may be a growing trend. Keep your eyes peeled.

Not necessarily. If a system were set up to heavily tax fuel for individuals but not business and commercial use, the result would be a push away from driving without radically increasing other prices.

+1 Agreed. This is already being done for farmers, they buy fuel for less than other businesses and individuals. A system whereby delivery fleets, emergency vehicles, and other essential services get discounted gas is a very good way of easing the burden that higher gas prices would put on society. Of course there will be those who attempt to abuse a system like this, so they will have to work on ways to prevent that. I will invest in companies that make locking gas caps. ;)

Maybe even the use of taxi cabs for trips impossible to use the bike for - is cheaper than purchasing a car, maintenance , gas and insurance?

Actually, a car sharing program is even cheaper than a taxi: www.peoplescar.org Check out the cost comparisons page.

Roger that. At our apartment complex last night we spotted an apparent homeless person with a pickup (mattress in the back). He was parking in our lot and camping in the greenbelt out back. He might have gone unchallenged except his two dogs (pit bull & some mongrel kind of terrier) were freely roaming the apartment complex. The terrier charged at me and my SO late last night so we started investigating. Son confronted the culprit this morning and he said he was leaving. Left in a hurry, leaving behind a gas can.

This may be a growing trend. Keep your eyes peeled.

There's something really telling about the fact that so many people have cars, but no housing. I really think that this may be the only country where that happens. That's a very powerful message about our society, I think.

Interesting observation, and appalling.

But realistically, I wonder how many people consciously chose car over housing. I have a friend who lived under a bridge --in his car-- for a while. I'm not sure what happened (girlfriend threw him out, probably). At any rate he had a car, and he had housing; then he lost one. It wasn't exactly a decision.

That said, this was a guy who really couldn't imagine not owning a car. Given the choice between one and the other, I'm really not sure which one he'd have taken. That's what's appalling.

Living car free numbers could soon see significant increases.

He disagrees:

http://www.letsgetreadytoramble.com/images/fatty.jpg

... Brad

Roger that. At our apartment complex last night we spotted an apparent homeless person with a pickup (mattress in the back). He was parking in our lot and camping in the greenbelt out back. He might have gone unchallenged except his two dogs (pit bull & some mongrel kind of terrier) were freely roaming the apartment complex. The terrier charged at me and my SO late last night so we started investigating. Son confronted the culprit this morning and he said he was leaving. Left in a hurry, leaving behind a gas can.

This may be a growing trend. Keep your eyes peeled.
Here too. Last winter a guy was camping in the patch of woods near me. I kept an eye on him but didn't report him. He didn't seem to be trashing the place. Then I noticed he had a nice car where he kept his stuff. The cops ran him out after about a month or so.

To support a significant car free population will require a fundamentally healthy economy with a good measure of civic cooperation. The alternative (in an economically depressed scenario) would be lots of people living out of their cars, as in The Grapes of Wrath. Drive-in Hoovervilles and the like.

I'd like to see a more prosperous and attractive future. If we just pay a little more attention to developing complete neighborhoods, public transit and bike/ped friendly infrastructure, it would be possible for people to choose their own level of car usage and adjust it as they see fit.

I'd like to see a more prosperous and attractive future. If we just pay a little more attention to developing complete neighborhoods, public transit and bike/ped friendly infrastructure, it would be possible for people to choose their own level of car usage and adjust it as they see fit.

To me, that should be the whole goal of the planning profession right now, and I think to a large extent it is. However, every time you get a petition in front of you without much parking, or one that is "too dense", the neighbors come out swinging. It's unfortunate that land use is so slow to change. I so often hear the argument that planners are trying to force people to give up their cars. That's not the case. My personal belief is that well-planned communities result in a multitude of equally attractive and efficient transportation options, meaning that walking and transit should be every bit the option that driving a car is. Not to say that you can't drive a car, or park, or do anything with that car... just that it's no more convenient than walking or riding a bike. There are very few places where this is the reality, though.

...However, every time you get a petition in front of you without much parking, or one that is "too dense", the neighbors come out swinging...I so often hear the argument that planners are trying to force people to give up their cars. That's not the case...
Taking a long term perspective, that's one reason architectural visionaries should identify and promote the few accidentally carfree friendly neighborhoods that already exist. If people gravitate to the magic neighborhoods because they like to have local resources and transit options, the local opinion may come to support further carfree development.

Can't do much in the near term to pacify Granny Grumps who still thinks it's 1960, at least until one day her kids gently take away the car keys...

I question the reporter's logic on pinning the cost of oil to the collapse of the sub prime market. He also shows his lack of education on the whole mortgage/sub prime issue. ...

Lets see, I spotted the link between the rising price of oil and economic problems in September 2007, more than a year later, this (pdf) report (http://research.cibcwm.com/economic_public/download/soct08.pdf) by a leading economist agrees with me:

Jeff Rubin, Chief Economist at CIBC World Markets, in a recent report, is now saying that the current recession is caused by high oil prices. Defaulting mortgages are only a symptom of the high oil prices. We should be blaming the underlying cause--higher oil prices--rather than the symptom. These higher oil prices caused Japan and the Eurozone to enter into a recession even before the most recent financial problems hit. Higher oil prices started four of the last five world recessions; we shouldn't be too surprised if they started this one also.

Perhaps it is wahoonc that has the questionable logic and education.

Roger that. At our apartment complex last night we spotted an apparent homeless person with a pickup (mattress in the back). He was parking in our lot and camping in the greenbelt out back. He might have gone unchallenged except his two dogs (pit bull & some mongrel kind of terrier) were freely roaming the apartment complex. The terrier charged at me and my SO late last night so we started investigating. Son confronted the culprit this morning and he said he was leaving. Left in a hurry, leaving behind a gas can.

This may be a growing trend. Keep your eyes peeled.

In the novel "Grapes of Wrath" about the depression farmers gave up their land but not their truck. Was that the type of thing that actually happened? It seems like a reasonable response for a family to take off in a truck looking for a livelihood rather than keeping the suburban house and limiting their job foraging range.

In the novel "Grapes of Wrath" about the depression farmers gave up their land but not their truck. Was that the type of thing that actually happened?
Very interesting to pick up this thread after a year.

"Grapes of Wrath" was kind of the worst case scenario for people. It was just a three day drive from the Dust Bowl to California, not the rigorous epic journey depicted by Steinbeck. The Joads were dead broke to start with, they were not educated, they didn't have any family support network to help them get established, and possibly worst of all they tried to stay in the agriculture business at a very bad time.

What happened in my family was that the younger people got in their cars and drove to town to get jobs: accountant, electrician, mechanic, textile mill, heavy equipment operator, gas station operator, carpenter, oil field worker, etc. The few who stayed in agriculture got by only by abandoning commodity type row cropping and specializing in something more profitable, like poultry and vegetable farming. The fact is, what saved many rural families in the 1930s was turning from the land as their primary resource to their motor vehicles.

Lets see, I spotted the link between the rising price of oil and economic problems in September 2007, more than a year later, this (pdf) report (http://research.cibcwm.com/economic_public/download/soct08.pdf) by a leading economist agrees with me:



Perhaps it is wahoonc that has the questionable logic and education.

Oil prices are down and the economy AND the mortgage market is still collapsing...American consumers have been over reaching for several years. Some of us have the good sense to live with in our means. But it looks like we may be penalized anyways.

Aaron:)

There's no bigger money pit in modern life than the car, except maybe the house that seems to be everyone's dream. At least a house has real value, but the car has less every single day you own it.

But to be carfree, the society around us has to cooperate with us. This means some rational, logical thinking that most politicians, taxpayers and developers are not capable of. You need intelligent placement of the things that people need within the urban area, safe roads (and personally, I think good bikepaths/lanes too whenever possible), and you need decent public transit because there are times when you won't be able to ride a bike unless you're a permanently healthy young hipster without any real world responsibilities.

And you also need to live in a city that isn't too close to the North Pole, especially if you don't have the above.

I am carfree, by the way, but it's not always easy or practical.

Oil prices are down and the economy AND the mortgage market is still collapsing...American consumers have been over reaching for several years. Some of us have the good sense to live with in our means. But it looks like we may be penalized anyways.

Aaron:)

Yeah, we'll be penalized. It looks like every solution to the bankers loss involves injustice to the people who behaved. Since most people haven't they turn on us, the rich won't pay so the only source of funds is the the people who saved for their retirement. They'll take it from us through devaluing the money or stocks or taxing us. They know we won't fight back since we tend to be the peaceful collaborator type.

Specialized fan, rising oil prices could affect you in other ways as well. As fuel prices keep on rising, properties in the suburbs or far from downtown areas could drop in value. They won't be as desirable when the cost of driving back and forth is factored in. So if you're looking for a place in the suburbs, you could get a good deal. The problem is nobody know exactly how high fuel prices will have to rise before affecting the choice of a home.
There's a lot of people here (not Newspaperguy in particular) who have no idea what you are wishing for.

If the price of fuel rises dramatically, people aren't just "going to stop driving" while everything else stays the same. Fuel is an energy cost, which would affect a lot of businesses in bad ways. It's not just stinky car exhaust, it's all of the fuel for moving all of the raw materials from wherever they come from, to all of the factories where they're used, and then to all of the stores that end up selling the finished junk. Most of those factories are located in cities. And most of the places that sell the finished stuff are located in cities. So in an economic downturn, the urban areas lose far more jobs than rural areas do.

And what happens in urban areas when the economy goes down the toilet has already been demonstrated more than once: crime in the urban living areas rises dramatically and the people who still make enough money to be able to afford to choose move out to the suburbs. Any business that deals with retail sales doesn't want to locate in a high-crime area either, so they leave for the suburbs too.

An economic depression is not going to draw people into urban living. There's a lot of "car free" people in Detroit, a lot of cheap housing, and a lot of very empty streets too--even during rush hour--but that doesn't make it a nice place to go bicycle riding.
~

An economic depression is not going to draw people into urban living. There's a lot of "car free" people in Detroit, a lot of cheap housing, and a lot of very empty streets too--even during rush hour--but that doesn't make it a nice place to go bicycle riding.
~

Have you ever cycled in Detroit? These people seem to be having a good time in the Motor City:

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc11/joejam414/shackdream.jpghttp://www.automorrow.com/images/porfolio/ckoveleski/utah1.jpg

(How old is this post? Seems it was from before gas prices crashed)

I am not sure why the OP uses Britain as an example for high gas prices.

However, if we use Britain as a model, then we can assume that high gasoline prices will not encourage bicycle commuting or car-free lifestyles.

Gasoline in Britain is over $12.00 per gallon. Still, bicycle commuting in England is not overwhelmingly popular.

Bicycle commuting seems to be a cultural thing. In the developed nations, the price of gasoline does not have as great an effect on bikership as you would think. The price of gasoline in Japan, for example, is slightly less than it is in England, but the use of bicycles is significantly greater than in England or the rest of Western Europe.

By observation, it seems that bicycle use in the USA is at least as common as it is in England despite the fact that gasoline prices in the USA are less than half what they are in England.

Have you ever cycled in Detroit? These people seem to be having a good time in the Motor City:

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc11/joejam414/shackdream.jpghttp://www.automorrow.com/images/porfolio/ckoveleski/utah1.jpg
Yea, they do.

They also don't appear to be in part of the motor city that's economically depressed.
~

Yea, they do.

They also don't appear to be in part of the motor city that's economically depressed.
~

Difficult concept: people in "economically depressed" regiond do ride bikes. And they might even have a little fun doing it.

The larger photo was taken at the Detroit Institute of Arts, a beautiful facility tht happens to be a dead rat's throw away fron an "economically depressed" region.