Living car free numbers to increase dramatically.

[HoustonB]

BBC News today (Sunday) : Petrol pump price could pass £1 a liter (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7021021.stm)

To convert to USA numbers: assume an average car has a 12 gallon tank, 12 US gallons is about 45 liters, 12 imperial gallons is 54 liters.

50 liters of gas at 1 GBP a liter is 100 USD a tank!

Oil is at an all time high, and (with natural gas) likely to climb higher as we head into winter. The USA sub-prime mortgage collapse has been generally fingered as the culprit in the international credit collapse and (in the UK) a run on a bank (Northern Rock) - few seem to be asking why so many should suddenly default on their mortgages in the sub-prime market at about the same time - enough to cause international financial market distress. The feds have only ever increased interest rates gradually and in relatively small amounts of 0.25% - the most important fact is that nobody predicted the collapse. Some of the brightest people on the planet working in the big investment banks were caught out.

If the high price of oil was a significant cause of the collapse in the sub-prime mortgage market - then things may be about to get a lot worse. One of the things that amazes me is the contrast between the near panic leading up to the potential year 2000 computer problems (that were properly addressed) and the complete lack of panic for peak oil (which cannot be addressed).

Living car free numbers could soon see significant increases.

[Specialized fan]

BBC News today (Sunday) : Petrol pump price could pass £1 a liter (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7021021.stm)

To convert to USA numbers: assume an average car has a 12 gallon tank, 12 US gallons is about 45 liters, 12 imperial gallons is 54 liters.

50 liters of gas at 1 GBP a liter is 100 USD a tank!

Oil is at an all time high, and (with natural gas) likely to climb higher as we head into winter. The USA sub-prime mortgage collapse has been generally fingered as the culprit in the international credit collapse and (in the UK) a run on a bank (Northern Rock) - few seem to be asking why so many should suddenly default on their mortgages in the sub-prime market at about the same time - enough to cause international financial market distress. The feds have only ever increased interest rates gradually and in relatively small amounts of 0.25% - the most important fact is that nobody predicted the collapse. Some of the brightest people on the planet working in the big investment banks were caught out.

If the high price of oil was a significant cause of the collapse in the sub-prime mortgage market - then things may be about to get a lot worse. One of the things that amazes me is the contrast between the near panic leading up to the potential year 2000 computer problems (that were properly addressed) and the complete lack of panic for peak oil (which cannot be addressed).

Living car free numbers could soon see significant increases.

Cool now it won't take me so long to get that latte!

[Newspaperguy]

Specialized fan, rising oil prices could affect you in other ways as well. As fuel prices keep on rising, properties in the suburbs or far from downtown areas could drop in value. They won't be as desirable when the cost of driving back and forth is factored in. So if you're looking for a place in the suburbs, you could get a good deal. The problem is nobody know exactly how high fuel prices will have to rise before affecting the choice of a home.

[MyBikeGotStolen]

To convert to USA numbers: assume an average car has a 12 gallon tank, 12 US gallons is about 45 liters, 12 imperial gallons is 54 liters.

50 liters of gas at 1 GBP a liter is 100 USD a tank!.

Is there something wrong with the math here or am I just half asleep?

[MyBikeGotStolen]

BTW, Specialized Fan, I hope your spill that hot latte on your nuts.

[wahoonc]

BTW, Specialized Fan, I hope your spill that hot latte on your nuts.

:roflmao::roflmao::D:rolleyes:

Aaron:)

[CommuterRun]

Is there something wrong with the math here...?

Not at 1 BPS to a little over 2 USD.

[wahoonc]

I question the reporter's logic on pinning the cost of oil to the collapse of the sub prime market. He also shows his lack of education on the whole mortgage/sub prime issue. It is the sub prime Adjustable Rate Mortgages that are at the root of the problem, that and people speculating.... I wonder what the building rate would have been if they hadn't played games in the mortgage market?

I do believe we are in for some very interesting times.

Aaron:)

[bpohl]

I'm so glad I bought a house downtown that I could actually afford (payment is less than 25% of my monthly income). If I could never drive again, it wouldn't really hurt e that much, although, arguably, we'll all be paying MUCH higher prices for the goods we consume.

[Platy]

Not everyone can live downtown. People who are stuck in the suburbs will have to adapt by living more car light.

[Specialized fan]

The main point is people who are hoping the government to tax the heck out of oil doesn't realize that high oil prices hurt everyone.

[Newspaperguy]

The main point is people who are hoping the government to tax the heck out of oil doesn't realize that high oil prices hurt everyone.

Not necessarily. If a system were set up to heavily tax fuel for individuals but not business and commercial use, the result would be a push away from driving without radically increasing other prices.

[wahoonc]

The main point is people who are hoping the government to tax the heck out of oil doesn't realize that high oil prices hurt everyone.

Not so much hurt but it will force them to make better choices. America has subsidized the oil industry with tax breaks and giveaways. We have become addicted to cheap oil. Now that the world market has changed we have to break that addiction. They have done a pretty good job of it in Europe and Japan by taxing the living daylights out of it and using the money to build top notch mass transit systems, so when oil peaks and starts to run out they will be in better shape than the US that is sprawled out all over the place. Face it breaking an addiction can hurt and it will hurt. But what doesn't kill you might just make you better for it. We have an obesity epidemic...one of the reasons is lack of exercise, we drive everywhere instead of walking. The small town my wife's shop is in, is only 12 square miles, why anyone that lives and works in town needs to drive a car is beyond me! I dropped my daughter's car off to have tires put on it the other day. They told me they would get someone to drive me down to the shop as soon as they got back from running some errand, it was going to be about 30 minutes or so. I told them don't bother I will walk...it was all of 14 blocks (small ones at that) and they seemed shocked. The automobile has killed the walkable neighborhood structure of much of this country and put many smaller business people out of business. We have people come into our store that have driven to every store in a 100 mile radius, just to make sure they are getting the best price possible...so they waste hours and fuel to make sure that they are saving $15 on something.:rolleyes: That is the type of behavior that will be hurt by higher fuel prices, and needs to be IMHO.

Aaron:)

[patc]

Not everyone can live downtown. People who are stuck in the suburbs will have to adapt by living more car light.

Where does this view of "its downtown or suburbs" come from? Cities have urban cores surrounding the immediate downtown. At least around here.

[Specialized fan]

Not necessarily. If a system were set up to heavily tax fuel for individuals but not business and commercial use, the result would be a push away from driving without radically increasing other prices.

OK lets look at it this way, people pay more fuel tax, so people eat out less, restraints and their suppliers get less business and end up laying off people, that is just one ripple effect. This is why I hate the Democratic party as they think they can tax their way out of every problem, if it moves tax it! Oh an we need a new social program as the people are too stupid to take care of them selves, this is completely stupid thinking.I believe in free enterprise where it is survival of the fittest, where you eather make a profit and live well or starve it is up to you not some stupid government hand out.

[cerewa]

Where does this view of "its downtown or suburbs" come from? Cities have urban cores surrounding the immediate downtown. At least around here.

Well, for some cities, even if the desirability of living in the city instead of the 'burbs goes up, the number of people in the city can't go up too much.

There will be economic pressure to fill all the abandoned houses (some cities have very few) and to fill up bedrooms in houses or apartments that are under-occupied. Construction on abandoned lots can absorb some increase in demand, and to some degree the construction of additional living space on existing lots.

But cities can absorb only so much increase in density, before people will be literally forced to live outside the city for lack of an available home in the city.

[MyBikeGotStolen]

Not at 1 BPS to a little over 2 USD.

Back from a 3 hour nap :)

I forgot to mulitply by 2 USD per BPS, Thanks.

[patc]

Well, for some cities, even if the desirability of living in the city instead of the 'burbs goes up, the number of people in the city can't go up too much..

I agree that without re-building densification can only go so far. That wasn't my point, however. I often see cities mentioned as having only a "downtown" and "suburbs", totally ignoring the middle-ground.

[Dahon.Steve]

I question the reporter's logic on pinning the cost of oil to the collapse of the sub prime market. He also shows his lack of education on the whole mortgage/sub prime issue. It is the sub prime Adjustable Rate Mortgages that are at the root of the problem, that and people speculating.... I wonder what the building rate would have been if they hadn't played games in the mortgage market?

I do believe we are in for some very interesting times.

Aaron:)

The collapse of the sub prime/real estate market is going to put us into a deep recession. The high price of fuel is only going to make it worse, very similar to what we went through in the early 90's.

Keep in mind, the whole real estate bubble was created because the federal reserve was dropping interest rates to keep us from going into a recession thanks to the war. Well, the correction is about to happen and the bubble is about to burst for it's a long time coming. The feds are not about to drop interest rates as they did before so the hay day of real estate speculation are over.

[Platy]

...The feds are not about to drop interest rates as they did before...
They just did, and as a result the dollar started declining at a much faster rate than before. Tonight's dollar index = 77.8. A few weeks ago the conventional wisdom was that if it fell below 80.0 we would be in serious currency trouble.

[Platy]

Where does this view of "its downtown or suburbs" come from? Cities have urban cores surrounding the immediate downtown. At least around here.
This is potentially a very interesting discussion that deserves its own topic.

[Specialized fan]

The other part of the problem is the Sub prime train wreck. Lenders who lent money to people to people that had no business financially buying a house in the first place. Then those balloon payments hit and holy crap I can't afford my house! This I blame the banks and the home buyers that had no clue as to what they were signing. The market will work it self out and it won't be the end of the world. I am just glad I didn't sign one of those sub prime scams and bought at a good time.

[Mr. Fly]

OK lets look at it this way, people pay more fuel tax, so people eat out less, restraints and their suppliers get less business and end up laying off people, that is just one ripple effect. This is why I hate the Democratic party as they think they can tax their way out of every problem, if it moves tax it! Oh an we need a new social program as the people are too stupid to take care of them selves, this is completely stupid thinking.I believe in free enterprise where it is survival of the fittest, where you eather make a profit and live well or starve it is up to you not some stupid government hand out.

Let's take your argument and turn it around. We live in a society. If you leave the people to fend for themselves (survival of the fittest), what do you think will happen to those less fortunate? For the honest ones, they may end up in severe trouble or become homeless; the less scrupulous ones may decide that their survival depends on robbing you. :rolleyes: Take the health care issue for example. If you don't have a way to address those with no insurance (and I'm not advocating universal healthcare here), they will 1. only go to the doctor when it's really bad (and thus expensive to fix), and 2. not pay after receiving the care (because they can't afford it). In the end, who ends up paying? Yes, it's actually the ones with health insurance that subsidize those without. Note: as a humanist, I won't consider denying critical treatments.

Really, there is no easy way out unless we can ingrain personal responsibility in everyone. Maybe that should be the test for citizenship (similar to in Starship Troopers). I'm really all for being responsible, and I do hate subsidizing to take care of someone else's problem. But in a society, that's unfortunately what one needs to do to hold everything together.

Of course, if you chose to be a hermit and live away from everyone else...:)

[bragi]

Not necessarily. If a system were set up to heavily tax fuel for individuals but not business and commercial use, the result would be a push away from driving without radically increasing other prices.

That's a sensible idea, actually, but it'll never, ever happen. Any legislator who tried to advance such a program would be engaging in political suicide. (Unless things got so bad that the average person saw the sense in it; perhaps an Australian after a few more years of relentless, CO2-driven drought.)

[Newspaperguy]

OK lets look at it this way, people pay more fuel tax, so people eat out less, restraints and their suppliers get less business and end up laying off people, that is just one ripple effect. This is why I hate the Democratic party as they think they can tax their way out of every problem, if it moves tax it! Oh an we need a new social program as the people are too stupid to take care of them selves, this is completely stupid thinking.I believe in free enterprise where it is survival of the fittest, where you eather make a profit and live well or starve it is up to you not some stupid government hand out.

If your fuel costs rise and your wage stays the same, you have two choices. You can drive the way you have in the past and cut back in the other areas of your life or you can cut back on your driving and have the money left for things that matter to you a little more. Your choice.

I'd rather spend my money on things other than fuel where possible.

For numerous reasons, not everyone can or will go car-free, but there are still plenty of ways to save on fuel costs for someone going car-light.
• Keeping the vehicle properly tuned up
• Carpooling
• Using transit where available
• Planning trips in order to drive less
• Staying closer to home for shopping and evenings out
• Replacing the gas guzzler with a more fuel efficient vehicle
• Walking and cycling more

[Specialized fan]

Let's take your argument and turn it around. We live in a society. If you leave the people to fend for themselves (survival of the fittest), what do you think will happen to those less fortunate? For the honest ones, they may end up in severe trouble or become homeless; the less scrupulous ones may decide that their survival depends on robbing you. :rolleyes: Take the health care issue for example. If you don't have a way to address those with no insurance (and I'm not advocating universal healthcare here), they will 1. only go to the doctor when it's really bad (and thus expensive to fix), and 2. not pay after receiving the care (because they can't afford it). In the end, who ends up paying? Yes, it's actually the ones with health insurance that subsidize those without. Note: as a humanist, I won't consider denying critical treatments.

Really, there is no easy way out unless we can ingrain personal responsibility in everyone. Maybe that should be the test for citizenship (similar to in Starship Troopers). I'm really all for being responsible, and I do hate subsidizing to take care of someone else's problem. But in a society, that's unfortunately what one needs to do to hold everything together.

Of course, if you chose to be a hermit and live away from everyone else...:)

If people have to pay too much for petroleum products what ever form they com in the people can't afford healthcare. It is amazing how much is tied into oil. I agree one one thing our dependence on foreign oil has to stop, we need to become more self reliant in many areas. Raising taxes doesn't solve the problem ether.

[Platy]

...there are still plenty of ways to save...
• Keeping the vehicle properly tuned up
• Carpooling
• Using transit where available
• Planning trips in order to drive less
• Staying closer to home for shopping and evenings out
• Replacing the gas guzzler with a more fuel efficient vehicle
• Walking and cycling more
Also, it's not absolutely required for parents to provide personal vehicles for every child in the family when they reach the minimum driving age. The demographic groups I expect to show the fastest rate of increase of car free living are dependent students and the healthy retired.

[bragi]

OK lets look at it this way, people pay more fuel tax, so people eat out less, restraints and their suppliers get less business and end up laying off people, that is just one ripple effect. This is why I hate the Democratic party as they think they can tax their way out of every problem, if it moves tax it! Oh an we need a new social program as the people are too stupid to take care of them selves, this is completely stupid thinking.I believe in free enterprise where it is survival of the fittest, where you eather make a profit and live well or starve it is up to you not some stupid government hand out.

You've bought the whole Republican lie, haven't you? That the only reason that ordinary people aren't thriving is that the government, infested as it is with evil left-wing destroyers of personal initiative, is stifling their native drive and ambition? Have you been paying attention over the last several years? Let's not talk about the cost of the Iraq war, the decline in real wages, or the huge increase in the deficit on Bush's watch. And never mind the fact that 10% of the population owns 85% of the assets in this country, and that large corporations are employing a bullpen full of very talented MBAs to make the imbalance even more obscene than it is now, effectively screwing the working class out of the gains made during the New Deal.

Lets's just focus on one thing: Paying a higher fuel tax for individual use would NOT result in less economic activity; quite the opposite. People, denied the chance to drive 15 miles to shop at Walmart, would give their money to locally owned businesses, eat at local restaurants (remember, the tax wouldn't apply to trucks delivering goods), and generally spend their money closer to home. More local jobs would result, and less money would leave the community. All good things, both from an economic and an environmental point of view. Unless you enjoy seeing working people struggle while their corporate overlords buy ever larger homes.

[Specialized fan]

You've bought the whole Republican lie, haven't you? That the only reason that ordinary people aren't thriving is that the government, infested as it is with evil left-wing destroyers of personal initiative, is stifling their native drive and ambition? Have you been paying attention over the last several years? Let's not talk about the cost of the Iraq war, the decline in real wages, or the huge increase in the deficit on Bush's watch. And never mind the fact that 10% of the population owns 85% of the assets in this country, and that large corporations are employing a bullpen full of very talented MBAs to make the imbalance even more obscene than it is now, effectively screwing the working class out of the gains made during the New Deal.

Lets's just focus on one thing: Paying a higher fuel tax for individual use would NOT result in less economic activity; quite the opposite. People, denied the chance to drive 15 miles to shop at Walmart, would give their money to locally owned businesses, eat at local restaurants (remember, the tax wouldn't apply to trucks delivering goods), and generally spend their money closer to home. More local jobs would result, and less money would leave the community. All good things, both from an economic and an environmental point of view. Unless you enjoy seeing working people struggle while their corporate overlords buy ever larger homes.

The tax you propose sounds punitive in nature, and tell me how and when raising taxes have ever stimulated the economy.
I don't agree totally about going into Iraq I think that was a big error in judgment that has spiraled into a Vietnam style mess. I am all for defending this country, but not miss using resources in the process. I am not a bush fan, in fact I don't like either party right now.
The Hildabeast is pretty scary too.

[Dahon.Steve]

Take the health care issue for example. If you don't have a way to address those with no insurance (and I'm not advocating universal healthcare here), they will 1. only go to the doctor when it's really bad (and thus expensive to fix), and 2. not pay after receiving the care (because they can't afford it). In the end, who ends up paying? Yes, it's actually the ones with health insurance that subsidize those without. Note: as a humanist, I won't consider denying critical treatments.

Really, there is no easy way out unless we can ingrain personal responsibility in everyone.


Not advocating universal healthcare???
Healthcare is skyrocketing and the reason people are walking into the hospital is due to the fact that unless you have a job that offers health insurance, the premiums are too costly! More and more companies are dropping their plans because they can no longer afford to provide it to thier employees. If we don't find a way to curb the cost of healthcare, it's going to break Social Security. That's not all, it's driving up inflation and we could lose entire industries in manufacturing.

More and more people are losing their health care and a "Tax Cut" is not going to get everyone on board. There's been a tax cut on the books for decades for those who want to shelf insure their familes but who has an extra 15K in cash to insure a family of four?

[bpohl]

Why have the mods not taken action on Specialized Fan? He is someone who is coming into a car-free forum, who has absolutely no intention of ever reducing his dependence in his car and adds NOTHING worthwhile to the conversation. He's one of the worst trolls I've ever seen, and he should not be given access to this forum.

[Roody]

The main point is people who are hoping the government to tax the heck out of oil doesn't realize that high oil prices hurt everyone.

I hate to be the first one on this forum to ever agree with you, but I do. :eek:

In fact, high oil prices will hurt the poor MUCH worse than the wealthy. That's unfair, and the main reason I support gas rationing rather than high taxes.

[wahoonc]

Why have the mods not taken action on Specialized Fan? He is someone who is coming into a car-free forum, who has absolutely no intention of ever reducing his dependence in his car and adds NOTHING worthwhile to the conversation. He's one of the worst trolls I've ever seen, and he should not be given access to this forum.

Ya oughta see what he was doing over in A&S:rolleyes::D

Aaron:)

[Roody]

OK lets look at it this way, people pay more fuel tax, so people eat out less, restraints and their suppliers get less business and end up laying off people, that is just one ripple effect. This is why I hate the Democratic party as they think they can tax their way out of every problem, if it moves tax it! Oh an we need a new social program as the people are too stupid to take care of them selves, this is completely stupid thinking.I believe in free enterprise where it is survival of the fittest, where you eather make a profit and live well or starve it is up to you not some stupid government hand out.

How about a revenue neutral petrol tax? that means they tax the hell out of gas, but lower other taxes to make up for it. So maybe you have a lower income tax, or sales tax. The government gets revenue, and citizens pay more for gas but no more in net taxes. Could be a win-win solution that appeals to both liberals and conservatives.

[wahoonc]

I hate to be the first one on this forum to ever agree with you, but I do. :eek:

In fact, high oil prices will hurt the poor MUCH worse than the wealthy. That's unfair, and the main reason I support gas rationing rather than high taxes.

I agree too that it will hurt the poor. But I don't see rationing ever gaining much traction. By the time it gets to that it will be way too late, remember the wealthy unfortunately pretty much run this country and very, very few of them will try to hurt themselves. Politics has become less of a what can I do for my country and countrymen and more of a what can I get out of it for me and my buddies system, and it crosses all party lines. The few that go in with the hope of trying to do something good usually get chewed up and spit out by the system.

Aaron:)

[Roody]

To all you econ buffs:

How does the weak dollar affect the price of imported oil?

[Nightshade]

The root of this issues isn't anything more than the suburban sprawl
and all of the infrastructure, including a mindset to match, to promote
the use of the car.

People can fuss over the "how to fix it" all they want to. However,
at the end of the day it will take a total collapse of "business as
usual" to wake people up to the reality of the cost, and damage,
the people who promoted the car and suburbia did to North
America. There will be a few who "get it", and they will be
ahead of the game, but the majority of the population is....
brain dead on this issue.

[Roody]

I agree too that it will hurt the poor. But I don't see rationing ever gaining much traction. By the time it gets to that it will be way too late, remember the wealthy unfortunately pretty much run this country and very, very few of them will try to hurt themselves. Politics has become less of a what can I do for my country and countrymen and more of a what can I get out of it for me and my buddies system, and it crosses all party lines. The few that go in with the hope of trying to do something good usually get chewed up and spit out by the system.

Aaron:)

This attitude must change. Humans are very adaptable, so there is always hope that we will change our greedy ways. There is recent scientific evidence accumulating that people have a genetic predisposition to be altruistic or generous. Our current economic system (an extreme *******ization of capitalism) encourages greed and stifles generosity.

[Platy]

To all you econ buffs:

How does the weak dollar affect the price of imported oil?
Generally speaking, in a completely free market, if the value of a dollar falls 10% with respect to all other currencies, the seller of the oil will want 10% more dollars for the same amount of oil. So you can say the dollar price of imported oil goes up.

The devil is in the details, though. You can have a situation where the dollar falls against some currencies and maintains rough parity with other currencies. You can have political alliances and discreet understandings that compel the seller of the oil to absorb some economic losses in order to keep dollar prices low to a few of its key customers. If central banks cooperate, they can devalue all currencies simultaneously in order to maintain exchange rate parity.

[PDay]

Im trying car-lite this week just for fun (and no money spent on gas). Today was the first day, been going well so far.

[bpohl]

Ya oughta see what he was doing over in A&S:rolleyes::D

Aaron:)

Oh, don't I know. I never post in there, but I read fairly often. The dude is about as lame as they come and never adds one iota of positive discussion. If I were a mod, I would have removed his access to certain subforums long ago.

[gwd]

Im trying car-lite this week just for fun (and no money spent on gas). Today was the first day, been going well so far.
Yes, it's fun. Let us know how it goes. You might end up car free.

[Roody]

Generally speaking, in a completely free market, if the value of a dollar falls 10% with respect to all other currencies, the seller of the oil will want 10% more dollars for the same amount of oil. So you can say the dollar price of imported oil goes up.

The devil is in the details, though. You can have a situation where the dollar falls against some currencies and maintains rough parity with other currencies. You can have political alliances and discreet understandings that compel the seller of the oil to absorb some economic losses in order to keep dollar prices low to a few of its key customers. If central banks cooperate, they can devalue all currencies simultaneously in order to maintain exchange rate parity.

And worldwide all oil prices are pegged to the dollar. Is this the main reason oil is up to almost $80 a barrel? If a French company buys oil with dollars, then sells it domestically for Euros, what is the economic effect?

[Artkansas]

I'm really all for being responsible, and I do hate subsidizing to take care of someone else's problem. But in a society, that's unfortunately what one needs to do to hold everything together.

Well, it's been proven that no one can take care of themselves all of the time. We all need other's help at times. That others are willing to help is one of the under-appreciated miracles of humanity. It's one of the greatest aspects of our nature. And yes, we all owe it to those who have helped us to take responsibility for ourselves, and also to pitch in to help others in our turn to help.

[Artkansas]

And worldwide all oil prices are pegged to the dollar. Is this the main reason oil is up to almost $80 a barrel? If a French company buys oil with dollars, then sells it domestically for Euros, what is the economic effect?

It depends on the exchange rate dollars/euros at the time the oil is bought and sold. Money could be made or lost just on the exchange rate alone.

[Platy]

And worldwide all oil prices are pegged to the dollar. Is this the main reason oil is up to almost $80 a barrel? If a French company buys oil with dollars, then sells it domestically for Euros, what is the economic effect?
You can't calculate those things scientifically because the system is chaotic and many important factors are unknown. So there are conflicting opinions instead of calculations. If you study the situation and try to sort it out for yourself, you don't get The Answer, you've just added your own thinking to the world's inventory of conflicting economic opinions.

If you zoom out to look at the big picture, you see maybe a billion smart, hard working people in rapidly developing countries who want to drive cars and live in large, climate controlled suburban houses. There aren't enough natural resources to enable that. Many Americans are unaware that they are now in a serious economic competition for scarce resources to maintain their accustomed standard of living. Those Americans (and I include myself) are generally not well positioned to win that economic competition.

A very good step for Americans to take right now would be to reduce car dependency in some degree. Or at least to start removing some of the social and infrastructure barriers faced by the people who would like to try reducing their car dependency.

[mwrobe1]

Well, it's been proven that no one can take care of themselves all of the time. We all need other's help at times. That others are willing to help is one of the under-appreciated miracles of humanity. It's one of the greatest aspects of our nature. And yes, we all owe it to those who have helped us to take responsibility for ourselves, and also to pitch in to help others in our turn to help voluntarily.

There...fixed it. I'm all for charity. I give to certain causes and friends and family when needed.

But don't try to sell the government "entitlements" for those less fortunate as "charity"...its intellectually dishonest, and it sure as hell ain't a voluntary act of giving from the citizens being taxed to pay for said "entitlements".

[Artkansas]

If I were a betting man, I'd check out the SEMA directories till I found a company that specialized in low-budget reoutfitting of SUVs for use as a home/car. Then I'd invest in it. I think that many people would would give up their over-priced house before they gave up their car.

[Artkansas]

But don't try to sell the government "entitlements" for those less fortunate as "charity"...its intellectually dishonest, and it sure as hell ain't a voluntary act of giving from the citizens being taxed to pay for said "entitlements".

Me, I think governments are useful for paving the roads and not much else. I don't believe I mentioned them. Ideally, I'm an anarchist. But till all people learn to pick up what ever slack they can as a part of their own moral integrity, I don't see governments going away very soon. If I say anything about entitlements for the rich, you'll never get me stopped. ;)

[mwrobe1]

But till all people learn to pick up what ever slack they can as a part of their own moral integrity, I don't see governments going away very soon.

Agreed.